Zen Archer/Warpriest is probably the best option for a gestalt. Scaling damage for your sacred weapon bow, blessings, swift action healing/self buffs, self enchanting bow, and 6th level casting off your wisdom.
not to mention, with that much wis focus you could afford to throw some stuff into charisma.
Go with a Zen Archer / Qinggong/ Inquisitor build on one side, Empyreal Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple on the other using the arcane casting from any SLA on the Qinggong side to qualify, throwing DD CL at the Sorcerer side. Very cheesy, yes, but Gestalt is full of cheese as it is.
You're right. I looked that over again. Wishful thinking I guess.
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You can't be an Empyreal Sorcerer and a Dragon Disciple. Wildblooded and Crossbloded both modify the bloodline class feature, so you can't take them both. You have to have the Draconic bloodline to be a Dragon Disciple, so that locks out Empyreal.Is it for PFS? Otherwise, I believe that any DM would let you stack them, they do not have overlapping abilites, their modifications can co-exist.
True, and since this thread is talking gestalt characters, the chances for DM approval are much higher since gestalting throws out all balance anyway.
However, it bears mentioning that is can't be done RAW. You know, if you've got the DM who is crazy enough to allow gestalt characters but puts his foot down on archetype blending RAW issues. People might be playing for that .00013% percent of the DM demographic. :P
You can't be an Empyreal Sorcerer and a Dragon Disciple. Wildblooded and Crossbloded both modify the bloodline class feature, so you can't take them both. You have to have the Draconic bloodline to be a Dragon Disciple, so that locks out Empyreal.
I've never seen anything to suggest that. Crossblooded gives you the Bloodline Arcana of both and allows you to choose the 1st level bloodline of one (and continue to choose between them at each level). Empyreal follows the Celestial bloodline only swapping out the 9th level power. So at first level you get to choose between the Celestial bloodline's Heavenly Fire and Draconic's Claws. You get the WIS casting from the Empyreal bloodline arcana and the +1 to damage for chosen energy type from Draconic. I don't seen any issues here and all the DD guides and handbooks I've read never mention that being an issue either. Oterisk's Guide to the Dragon Disciple recommends crossblooded and mentions the controversy, but suggests that it should be allowed.
Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spells
MAD issues. Zen Archer is already needing wisdom and dexterity with strength and constitution as a can't dump stats. Bard adds charisma to the mix.
Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spellsMAD issues. Zen Archer is already needing wisdom and dexterity with strength and constitution as a can't dump stats. Bard adds charisma to the mix.
Yes, Inquisitor is the divine answer to the bard and works much better.
Yes, Inquisitor is the divine answer to the bard and works much better.Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spellsMAD issues. Zen Archer is already needing wisdom and dexterity with strength and constitution as a can't dump stats. Bard adds charisma to the mix.
That said, the OP should really consider the evangilist cleric. Bardic performances, cleric buffs, and cleric casting progression, all in a nice wisdom based package.
That said, the OP should really consider the evangilist cleric. Bardic performances, cleric buffs, and cleric casting progression, all in a nice wisdom based package.
Yes, I actually looked at taking a level of that for my ZAM as well. If you can sing and shoot at the same time, you can preach and shoot at the same time!
I've never seen anything to suggest that. ***There's actually a FAQ specifically saying they're not compatible archetypes, though it does recommend what you should do if you choose to houserule it
Interesting. I'd never even heard of there being a controversy about it prior to today. I don't see an issue with it. The recommended house rules are sort of obvious and make sense.
Incidentally, I'm also only just learning of the Warpriest. Were can I find that class description?
Interesting. I'd never even heard of there being a controversy about it prior to today. I don't see an issue with it. The recommended house rules are sort of obvious and make sense.I've never seen anything to suggest that. ***There's actually a FAQ specifically saying they're not compatible archetypes, though it does recommend what you should do if you choose to houserule itBasically, it's down to Wildblooded not functioning the way it really feels like it ought to. It's not a "separate" bloodline that's very similar to an existing one, it's actually the same as the base bloodline abilities with an archetype applied.
Once you understand that, all the logic falls into place really. Since it's an archetype, and functions as such, the abilities replaced are archetype abilities. Crossblooded replaces all bloodline-related abilities, including Arcana, while any Wildblooded selection will inevitably replace at least one of them. Hence, by RAW, they conflict.
It's just kind of silly and awkward.
Which is why a lot of people houserule around it....
I've never seen anything to suggest that. ***There's actually a FAQ specifically saying they're not compatible archetypes, though it does recommend what you should do if you choose to houserule itInteresting. I'd never even heard of there being a controversy about it prior to today. I don't see an issue with it. The recommended house rules are sort of obvious and make sense.
Incidentally, I'm also only just learning of the Warpriest. Were can I find that class description?
get it here for free
do elementals have hands? does a wizard keep his "gear" when he polymorphs? sure, air/fire elementals may be ruled as unable to use manufactured weapon but earth is pretty solid.
While, yes, I do agree on the general mechanics here (you'd have to drop your bow before wildshaping though), I cannot say that I find this adding much to a zen archer. They already use WIS instead of DEX for their bows, so the bonuses from wildshaping are rather fruitless. Plus, if you become an air elemental that gives you anything other than "I can fly" then you will need a bow appropriate for your size, which can be an expense.
While going caster is certainly an option, I think I will advise on the route that gives you more chances to do the things you wanted to do: shoot people in the face with arrows really well.
For a style like bows, the typical wisdom is to try to get as many hits as possible, and then get as many perhit bonuses as possible. Inquisitors are admittedly good at this, and they can add to both your damage and and bonuses to hit. An excellent suggestion, and certainly gives you more to do besides shooting.
But my personal suggestion would be to go with a Lurting Cavalier (paladin is equally valid, but it needs CHA to go well, and you have enough important stats already). This is because the challenge feature (which the luring archetype applies to ranged attacks) gives you buckets upon bucks of extra damage on every hit on a specific opponent (until they hit you in this case; there is an extra bit about them getting a +4 to attack... for the first hit that actually hits..which was likely going to hit anyway). You also get a mount, which translates for an archer into a mobile platform from which to shoot arrows.
Another advised choice would be the Sable Company Marine archetype for rangers. This restricts your choice in animal companions as well as some minor ability...in return for a giant flying horse/bird (like a griffon, but with a horse's rear end instead of a lion's). Which you can ride from the instant you get it. So it a flying mobile platform for your archery. I am sure you could also take advantage of the bonuses from favored enemy, extra skill points, and spells, but really, it seems like enough to be the guy that can ride around in the air all day starting at level 4. Unfortunately, you would not get much use out of combat styles. since Zen Archer already has that covered in spades with its flurry and bonus feats. So yes, it is only an option if you want to ride bird/horse thing.
straight Zen Archer on one side
other side= trapper ranger 6-> empyreal sorcerer 1-> arcane archer 10at 17th level you're only -1 BAB (and full when flurrying) and cast at 8th level with all the crazy arcane archer abilities... plus you have trapfinding and a couple of ranger spells (for aspect of the falcon, use sorc spells for gravity bow...)
Trapper loses spells.
Like the title says Im trying to make my first gestalt character and decided that I want it to me a zen archer + something else. Ive been wanting to try zen archer for a while now and this seems like the perfect time :3 My first idea was to make it a zen archer+Sniper rouge so I could Sneak Attack on a Flurry of Blows but making a workable sniper character seems to have proven too difficult and inconsistent. So next I thought of going a zen archer + Paladin but there really arnt any archtypes for paladin archers and splitting stats between Wisdom Strength Dex and Charisma was obv way too thin. Fighter Archer is an option too but seems a little weak, I dont know.
Any advice or ideas to sway my opinion would be greatly appriciated as im very much stuck :(
Also I want this character to go down the combat reflexes -> Improved Snapshot line so I do need him to have a half decent dex.
Imagine. Zen Archer and Cleric. When your Zen Archer hits level 8, put a level in Empryeal Bloodline Sorcerer. From there go full Arcane archer who also has full cleric levels.
What do you think? Wisdom is your casting stat for Cleric and Empryeal Bloodline Sorcerer. Wisdom is your AC. Wisdom is your attack roll. You can use spells such as Divine Power to give you an extra shot with your bow, along with scaling damage and hit bonuses. You can cast Named Bullet eventually too. Your saves will be unstoppable.
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Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spellsMAD issues. Zen Archer is already needing wisdom and dexterity with strength and constitution as a can't dump stats. Bard adds charisma to the mix.
I disagree with you here. As a dedicated archer you don't really need a lot of Constitution, and since you get to use Wisdom for attack rolls, Dex only really matters for AC and init, but hey most likely aren't going to be toe to toe with enemies.
Bard doesn't require a lot of Cha, just enough to be able to cast the spells. Lingering Performance + Extra Performance (eventually) gives you more rounds of Archaeologist Luck than you'll ever need.
Anyway, I see a lot of advice for going full caster, but that's something I'm ambivalent about. If you go that route you can either be an archer OR a mage in any given round, which is nice versatility, but lacks real synergy as you can't combine both features simultaneously to perform better than any non-gestalt ever could. With that in mind I'd second Inquisitor or Bard as their abilities mesh really well with what you're going to be doing.
Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spellsMAD issues. Zen Archer is already needing wisdom and dexterity with strength and constitution as a can't dump stats. Bard adds charisma to the mix.I disagree with you here. As a dedicated archer you don't really need a lot of Constitution, and since you get to use Wisdom for attack rolls, Dex only really matters for AC and init, but hey most likely aren't going to be toe to toe with enemies.
Bard doesn't require a lot of Cha, just enough to be able to cast the spells. Lingering Performance + Extra Performance (eventually) gives you more rounds of Archaeologist Luck than you'll ever need.
Anyway, I see a lot of advice for going full caster, but that's something I'm ambivalent about. If you go that route you can either be an archer OR a mage in any given round, which is nice versatility, but lacks real synergy as you can't combine both features simultaneously to perform better than any non-gestalt ever could. With that in mind I'd second Inquisitor or Bard as their abilities mesh really well with what you're going to be doing.
I believe Cleric in particular will help out zen Archer a lot as a secondary class. Despite being a full casting class it has a lot of synergy to offer. Spells such as Weapon of Awe, and Divine Power to boost archery. Spells that do stuff like remove blindness or stat damage are there to make sure your archery is never turned off. True Seeing to not be stopped by pesky invisible foes. Healing to keep your martial butt alive. Its all good support for it! And a giant heap of damage buffs.
Though Inquisitor is a totally strong option as well. It will get these spells, though later than a Cleric. And Bane+Judgement are hard to ignore.
War priest looks interesting and though Sacred Weapon sounds cool, the sacred damage (if I'm reading it right) doesn't help most melee weapons until 10th level. If you are using Gravity Bow, it's not useful even longer. The other sacred weapon effects are interesting though. I don't think this class is better than any of the others that have been suggested.
War priest looks interesting and though Sacred Weapon sounds cool, the sacred damage (if I'm reading it right) doesn't help most melee weapons until 10th level. If you are using Gravity Bow, it's not useful even longer. The other sacred weapon effects are interesting though. I don't think this class is better than any of the others that have been suggested.
I think Gravity Bow and Sacred Damage just might stack. Gravity bow makes your arrows one size category bigger right? So at 10th level with Gravity Bow the arrows will deal 2d8 damage instead of 1d10 damage.
Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spellsMAD issues. Zen Archer is already needing wisdom and dexterity with strength and constitution as a can't dump stats. Bard adds charisma to the mix.I disagree with you here. As a dedicated archer you don't really need a lot of Constitution, and since you get to use Wisdom for attack rolls, Dex only really matters for AC and init, but hey most likely aren't going to be toe to toe with enemies.
Bard doesn't require a lot of Cha, just enough to be able to cast the spells. Lingering Performance + Extra Performance (eventually) gives you more rounds of Archaeologist Luck than you'll ever need.
Anyway, I see a lot of advice for going full caster, but that's something I'm ambivalent about. If you go that route you can either be an archer OR a mage in any given round, which is nice versatility, but lacks real synergy as you can't combine both features simultaneously to perform better than any non-gestalt ever could. With that in mind I'd second Inquisitor or Bard as their abilities mesh really well with what you're going to be doing.
Note I said that strength and constitution are "can't dump" stats. It isn't that you need a lot of them, but you can't afford to dump them down to a 7 either. They need to be in the solid 10-14 range. I would also say that you probably don't want to dump intelligence either. Dex needs to be a solid 14+ and wisdom needs to be as high as you can get it. That leaves Charisma as you only dump stat. If you take bard, then you will need to be a 16+ Charisma at some point, and you are going to want to use your headband on boosting wisdom first.
Since you can get all of your bardic performances that matter with full level 9 clerical casting on a wisdom based caster via the evangilist cleric, the bard is really a non-option.
Warpriest has a lot of uses for Swift actions, as does the Monk. It's a poor combination in my opinion.
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Anyway, I see a lot of advice for going full caster, but that's something I'm ambivalent about. If you go that route you can either be an archer OR a mage in any given round, which is nice versatility, but lacks real synergy as you can't combine both features simultaneously to perform better than any non-gestalt ever could. With that in mind I'd second Inquisitor or Bard as their abilities mesh really well with what you're going to be doing.
^^This is a really good point. It's the same issue you see in Eldritch Knights and Mystic Theurges. Sure you can fight and cast, or cast arcane and divine spells, but you usually aren't doing both in the same round, you're doing one or another. Something that maximizes your action economy and complements your core function is smart.
What about Paladin to boost your saves even further and add some Smite damage onto your ranged attacks, as well as picking up a few useful spells?
Warpriest has a lot of uses for Swift actions, as does the Monk. It's a poor combination in my opinion.
They're both pulling from pretty limited pools though. I think the two together just help extend your viability and help pack more into an adventuring day.
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Warpriest has a lot of uses for Swift actions, as does the Monk. It's a poor combination in my opinion.
Both use swift actions for different things, and both use different resources. If you need to buff on the first round, Swift action self buff divine favor with a use of fervor. Need to shoot someone behind a wind wall? Ki Trick arrow. Need to heal? Fervor to heal. Doing a standard full attack after you buffed? Ki extra attack.
More options are better than less imo.
I would say classic rogue. To start with, you get more skill points and sneak attack damage. You get evasion back, which you lose with the zen archer archetype. You get UMD as a class skill, which you can use for wands to buff (Gravity Bow, Mage Armor, etc.). As far as rogue talents go, you can use combat trick to get more archery feats. Trap Sense is nice if you are the scout, and Uncanny Dodge is always nice to have.
Someone posted a PBP recruitment for a solo gestalt PC campaign. Remembering this thread I thought I'd kick the dead horse some more. I was leaning toward the ZAM/INQ, however, a friend of mine recently made a good point about needing to have something to stand in the way for you if you are soloing. This brings me back around to the Druid, but I don't really know anything about druids. For someone in the know, could you throw out some of the juicy synergistic bits for ZAM and druid? Thanks.
off the top of my head, i'd suggest either ranger (favored enemy, more feats, full BAB, useful spells like gravity bow) or inquisitor (judgments, skill synergies, very WIS-based, useful spells)