|
I'm running a kingdom building game, the players are level 4, one of them is a high strength cavalier who us enjoyoing the crap out of spirited charge and a lance and rideby attack.
However, he can basically one-shot any CR appropriate thing I've thrown at him thus far.
I find myself curious though:
What is a reasonable/fair/balanced average DPR at each level for a player character?
Is it the same as for monsters? Can I gauge player character power using the monster guidelines?
Has anyone run any stats they can point me to that calculate the "Spine" of player stats?
|
|
Oh. Sure. I can step up my tactics, now that I've seen the ability in use.
But if I can see what kind of DPR spine is *reasonable* for pathfinder characters, I can see just how often I should try using tactics to deny him his bonus, and how often I should just let him revel in totally messing up people's faces with a lance and a horse.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is it fun for him?
Is it fun for the rest of the party?
Is it fun for you?
If the answer to all of these questions is "Yes" no action need be taken.
If the answer to one of more of these is "No" take action as you see fit until all are at "Yes" again.
If the party is like "Hey man it's really fun watching you annihilate people but I'd like a piece of something now and then", it might be more fun to go with MORE enemies, rather than more powerful ones.
After all, he can only *SPLAT* one guy a round so instead of tossing one CR 5-6 enemy a fight at them, start tossing 4 or 5 CR 4 guys or 7 or 8 CR 2-3 people.
Fun for the whole family.
Good general advice anyway. Single monster fights are pretty much designed to be pushovers unless the CR gap is ludicrous.
Don't forget, you're already at the level where its easier to kill the horse than the rider, and enemies will only be too happy to take his horse out from under him. Side benefit - killing the horse means he might have to go several encounters fighting without a mount, at least until he can find another war-trained mount to replace it. Not a nice thing to do all the time, but once in a while, just to keep him grounded (pun intended).
By the way, it's incredibly funny when a cavalier's horse gets subject to a Fear effect, and pretty much every casting class gets Cause Fear at level 1, so maybe those enemies have a priest or shaman or sorcerer with them and the minute he sees that cavalier laying waste to his meat shields, that caster is gonna make the cavalier's horse go the other way for a while.
|
|
Is it fun for him?
- Yes
Is it fun for the rest of the party?
- So Far, no complaints. It's only been one session.
Is it fun for you?
- It's been making combat on my side rather boring, as the enemies don't seem to pose much of a challenge most of the time. When they were attacked by Basilisks while sleeping (the chevalier cavalier was on watch and got petrified) that was a fun way to mix it up; I'm not saying he can't be in the fight, just that the scenarios where he does what seems to be crazy high damage make those fights too trivial.
Suggestions on ways/scenarios where I can throw him into a fight that he can't charge every round (but might be able to charge once or twice) could be good.
Obv, he can't charge in dense forest, he can't charge flying opponents, and he can't charge people who have sturdy cover to shoot at him from behind. What other options do I have where he's not charging every round?
If the party is like "Hey man it's really fun watching you annihilate people but I'd like a piece of something now and then", it might be more fun to go with MORE enemies, rather than more powerful ones.
After all, he can only *SPLAT* one guy a round so instead of tossing one CR 5-6 enemy a fight at them, start tossing 4 or 5 CR 4 guys or 7 or 8 CR 2-3 people.
Fun for the whole family.
Good general advice anyway. Single monster fights are pretty much designed to be pushovers unless the CR gap is ludicrous.
Yeah, they haven't been taking on many single enemy fights.
9 mounted bandits (CR 4 minion rule human bandits and a CR 6 warrior from NPC Codex, that I put on a horse)
2 CR 4 minion groups and a CR 6.
This one was a cakewalk.
2 CR 5 Basilisks, while they were sleeping.
Kindof easy, except for the cavalier who was helpless for the fight.
4 CR3 Shadows
He had an easy time of them due to Rideby/Charge, the other players struggled with it, and found it a tricky fight due to all the strength damage.
4 Drow Minions (CR 4 for the group)
Super cakewalk, but this one wasn't supposed to be that tough.
In addition to the story-based fights, I'm making use of random encounter tables for their overland travel. They also encountered (but did not fight) 3 Dryads (Social), a Nymph (Social * The Cavalier and Bard aren't humanoid, so they were immune to the blindness effect), two Forest Giants (The giants were busy off in the distance, PCs did not engage), and an adult Green Dragon (it didn't notice them).
It mostly went well, but any fight the cavalier could spirited rideby charge he really splatted the enemies, and they either weren't much of a challenge, or simply weren't a challenge to *him*.
By the way, it's incredibly funny when a cavalier's horse gets subject to a Fear effect, and pretty much every casting class gets Cause Fear at level 1, so maybe those enemies have a priest or shaman or sorcerer with them and the minute he sees that cavalier laying waste to his meat shields, that caster is gonna make the cavalier's horse go the other way for a while.
Ooh. I hadn't considered that as a tactic. I like it.
Don't forget, you're already at the level where its easier to kill the horse than the rider, and enemies will only be too happy to take his horse out from under him. Side benefit - killing the horse means he might have to go several encounters fighting without a mount, at least until he can find another war-trained mount to replace it. Not a nice thing to do all the time, but once in a while, just to keep him grounded (pun intended).
His mount is an animal companion, not just a plain horse. But its true that it's an easier target than he is. I don't want to break that one out regularly, but I might do that once or twice. I imagine he will go to the trouble of having it resurrected if/when that happens. We'll see.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hm. This is purely blue-skying but:
1) You take the average HP for a monster of CR = level
2) You assume a combat should last four rounds, so divide by four
3) You assume that there are four PCs contributing, so divide by four again; that would be your baseline
4) You figure out your PC's average damage per round, taking into account number of attacks, miss chance, average damage, etc. (against a monster of CR = level, using average monster AC from the same table)
5) A frontline fighter should probably be able to do up to 2 times the baseline with a standard attack?
This isn't airtight but maybe gives you a framework to start from. Feel free to amend my assumptions if you think they're unrealistic.
Suggestions on ways/scenarios where I can throw him into a fight that he can't charge every round (but might be able to charge once or twice) could be good.
Simplest solutions?
-Difficult terrain
-Fog/Darkness (can't run or charge if you can't see properly)
-Inside/Underground. No room to ride, no room to charge.
For ways he can charge once, but not all the time...hm.
-Places that are hard to turn around in. He can get a charge lane, but can't circle enough to make a real charge again or snap to a different target.
-Close quarters combat. Need at least 10 feet between you and the enemy, so if they're all huddled up or crowded around him, at the very least he's gonna have to run somewhere else (provoking AoOs) and waste a turn getting in a new position.
|
|
Hm. This is purely blue-skying but:
1) You take the average HP for a monster of CR = level
2) You assume a combat should last four rounds, so divide by four
3) You assume that there are four PCs contributing, so divide by four again; that would be your baseline
4) You figure out your PC's average damage per round, taking into account number of attacks, miss chance, average damage, etc. (against a monster of CR = level, using average monster AC from the same table)
5) A frontline fighter should probably be able to do up to 2 times the baseline with a standard attack?This isn't airtight but maybe gives you a framework to start from. Feel free to amend my assumptions if you think they're unrealistic.
Not a bad place to start.
That doesn't factor in miss chance, or damage reduction; but yeah, that looks like where to start. I was just hoping someone had already done the heavy lifting for me. :P
That doesn't factor in miss chance, or damage reduction; but yeah, that looks like where to start.
I thought about that (also, energy resistance). But I would assume, for simplicity's sake if nothing else, that a party is able to adequately compensate for the DR of a challenge equivalent to its level. Casters have buffs, all players purchase or find level-appropriate gear, etc. to achieve parity.
Naturally one could assume any number of specific exceptions but, as you say, it's a place to start.
1) You take the average HP for a monster of CR = level
2) You assume a combat should last four rounds, so divide by four
3) You assume that there are four PCs contributing, so divide by four again; that would be your baseline
4) You figure out your PC's average damage per round, taking into account number of attacks, miss chance, average damage, etc. (against a monster of CR = level, using average monster AC from the same table)
5) A frontline fighter should probably be able to do up to 2 times the baseline with a standard attack?
OK, level 4 characters. Let's use a CR4 tiger. Hit points: 45.
That's 11 damage per round.Four PCs, so if they do 3 points of damage each per round, that's enough to win.
So a level 4 DPR-focused character should be able to do 6 points of damage per round?
I think I'd adjust upwards from 'a single =CR opponent'.
It's not often you see someone worried about the power of the Cavalier. It warms my heart.
Sadly, your namesake never got a horse.
I'm running a kingdom building game, the players are level 4, one of them is a high strength cavalier who us enjoyoing the crap out of spirited charge and a lance and rideby attack.
However, he can basically one-shot any CR appropriate thing I've thrown at him thus far.
I find myself curious though:
What is a reasonable/fair/balanced average DPR at each level for a player character?Is it the same as for monsters? Can I gauge player character power using the monster guidelines?
Has anyone run any stats they can point me to that calculate the "Spine" of player stats?
Cavelier damage is situational to him riding, and he will not always be riding. Let him enjoy his time in the sun.
If you want to get an idea of the DPR, take his stats and work them as a fighter (with favourite weapon like a falcata or falchion), barbarian (raging), paladin (smiting), or ranger (archery, fighting favoured enemy). Doesn't look so bad now, does it?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Check out Cheapy's DPR calculations for an optimized CRB Fighter. Pretty useful as a point of reference.
I'd do what Rynjin said. And I'd also increase your sample size before you come to a conclusion. Four fights is a pretty small sample. That said, it's true that lance charge characters can sometimes deal excessively high damage. If you find it to be still a problem for your game with a larger sample of situations, then there's plenty of good suggestions in this thread for adjusting encounters so that the mounted charge shines some but not all of the time.
Im not sure about the DPR balnace figures not sure they exist.
They don't, because DPR isn't, per se, real.
As a statistic it is multiple steps removed from any value that actually exists within the game. It also, more importantly, represents nothing like what the name suggests it does (which would be the average damage characters actually deal per round of combat).
Cavelier damage is situational to him riding, and he will not always be riding. Let him enjoy his time in the sun.
This. Really, the only reason the Cavalier tends to have a weak-ish reputation is that it's so tied to mounted combat, and so many standard adventures don't work well with that.
I consider myself an ardent theorycrafter & mathematizer of pathfinder. The game is pretty intricately built, and I've done decent calculations for AC, to-hit & saves. DPR & HP are more complicated since it varies so much from class to class, especially with per-use abilities like challenge. Joe M. pointed out cheapy's DPR calculations, and I would probably treat them as an excellent "baseline"; IE with use per day abilities the DPR (over a whoel adventuring day) should probably average out to that.
Now, will it cause a problem long-term? Maybe. But the moment the cavalier has to get of it's horse, it looses the advantage. As others have said, let them have their time in the sun. The moment they enter a dungeon/forest/difficult terrain they will loose much of that. I play a magus that can fo a RIDICULOUS amount of damage, but the moment I'm faced with spell resistance/electricity immunity, I become a lot less useful.
I would probably treat them as an excellent "baseline"; IE with use per day abilities the DPR (over a whoel adventuring day) should probably average out to that.
I invite you to crunch a representative sample of combat turns, perhaps over a whole typical adventuring day, for a character from your game and figure out whether you are right.
Be sure to include the rounds that weren't a full attack under ideal circumstances, when you hit a mirror image instead of the real foe, when you bumped into a wall of force while charging in, when you had to use a backup weapon...etc ;)
Once you finish, you'll have average damage per round, which is at least a directly derived statistic with only one, relatively minor distortive step involved (the step of averaging the actual damage over actual rounds against actual defenses in actual circumstances, rather than idealized damage over idealized rounds against handwaved defenses in perfect circumstances).
You still have that simple distortion, just because Pathfinder's damage math isn't really about averages, it's about yes/no conditions, threshold effects, etc, but at least it's simple rather than compound distortion.
I would probably treat them as an excellent "baseline"; IE with use per day abilities the DPR (over a whoel adventuring day) should probably average out to that.I invite you to crunch a representative sample of combat turns, perhaps over a whole typical adventuring day, for a character from your game and figure out whether you are right.
Be sure to include the rounds that weren't a full attack under ideal circumstances, when you hit a mirror image instead of the real foe, when you bumped into a wall of force while charging in, when you had to use a backup weapon...etc ;)
Once you finish, you'll have average damage per round, which is at least a directly derived statistic with only one, relatively minor distortive step involved (averaging actual damage over actual rounds against actual defenses in actual circumstances, rather than idealized damage over idealized rounds against handwaved defenses in perfect circumstances).
Like I said in my post, it is HARD to do the DPR/HP calculations. However, in everything else (AC, saves, to hit) the game seems to be fairly "balanced". I can imagine someone did the calculations at some point, by I havent the faintest idea of how to account for the variability.
|
|
This doesn't need to be a debate about how useful abstract DPR numbers are. Coriat, you're obviously correct about the limitations of such data. But I took the initial question here to be, "under ideal conditions this cavalier is laying down ridiculous amounts of damage! how ridiculous is the number?" To answer that question, abstract DPR numbers are useful: compare the cavalier in his ideal conditions to the optimized CRB fighter in hers (i.e. standing next to a creature with no special defensive abilities, full attacking).
For the larger question, whether the cavalier is going to be a real problem in the long run, everyone else has adequately addressed that one.
For the larger question, whether the cavalier is going to be a real problem in the long run, everyone else has adequately addressed that one.
*nods*
The takeaway point from my posts for the OP, I hope, is that DPR isn't going to tell him much about whether his cavalier is too much, too little, or just right for his party.
Looking at actual combat performance over a decent size sample of rounds (and trying to avoid confirmation bias, by paying attention to the fights when the party is ambushed at night and the cavalier ends up dismounted and petrified as well as the ones where he charges in to glory) - on the other hand - will.
And for that, it would be better to have a larger sample size than a handful of fights during the first session.
Keep an eye on him, since there's a potential concern. Now that you're paying attention to this ability, you can figure out whether it's going to be something you need to adjust for.
|
Like people mentioned adjusting tactics is frankly the only solution. Hp will never be enough, even less if you engage into a slugfest. Not many monsters are made to survive slugfest. At the same time, don't make trolls tactical genius suddenly for example, as long as you are keeping the encounters fun and challenging nobody will have reasons to complain or be bored at the table.
What other options do I have where he's not charging every round?
One such option that hasn't been mentioned yet, by the way, is that Crane Style has some interesting potential here. It's one way to let the charge contribute to a fight, without actually having the charge deal all that damage.
For instance, if the party's monk enemy is holding his Crane Style deflect in reserve out of paranoia about the cavalier's charge, that effectively means the cavalier's charge is denying him that defense. IC description, he falls into a defensive stance, eyes on the lance, and by doing so he leaves himself open for the party ranger to carve up his kidneys. Or whatever.
(that said, you'd have to be judicious with this, because it's a small step from the positive interpretation of this (my character's ability still had an effect, yay!) to the negative (my GM is building all his foes to gun for me specifically, but not the other PCs! Boo!). Mixing it up is never a terrible choice, as you already know, and if all else fails, talking about what you aimed to achieve is probably rarely a terrible choice either.)
In general, the category of ablative or limited use defenses (Crane Style, Mirror Image, etc) are good ways to hinder a one big strike character without actually preventing him from doing his one big strike entirely like difficult terrain and such do.
OK, level 4 characters. Let's use a CR4 tiger. Hit points: 45.
That's 11 damage per round.
Four PCs, so if they do 3 points of damage each per round, that's enough to win.
So a level 4 DPR-focused character should be able to do 6 points of damage per round?I think I'd adjust upwards from 'a single =CR opponent'.
Lvl 4 they get one attack, they miss maybe a quarter of the time, they do ~10 damage on the attacks that do hit. I think 6 points per round is pretty reasonable for a non-optimized character.
That's assuming a four-round combat, of course. Maybe adjust the expectation down to a three-round?
EDIT: Useful data.
Lvl 4 they get one attack, they miss maybe a quarter of the time, they do ~10 damage on the attacks that do hit. I think 6 points per round is pretty reasonable for a non-optimized character.
That's assuming a four-round combat, of course. Maybe adjust the expectation down to a three-round?
Missing one quarter of the time for 6 damage per round is 8 damage per hit. That seems a long way from optimized.
An optimized fighter might have 18 strength, a greatsword, and power attack. He does 16 damage per hit at level 1. By level 4 I would expect this to be several points higher (weapon training, magic weapon, weapon specialization, or whatever.)A less optimized fighter: 16 strength and a greatsword. 11 damage per hit at level 1.
A defensive fighter with a heavy shield: 16 strength and a scimitar. 6.5 damage per hit at level 1. So, yes, that guy might possibly be doing 6 damage per round at level 4.
@ Matthew Downie I think I edited my post while you were replying to it :D
You are correct, optimized fighter can probably solo the tiger 3 rounds (assuming the tiger doesn't kill him in the meantime, of course). Maybe that is useful as a comparison point for OP.
|
|
It's not often you see someone worried about the power of the Cavalier. It warms my heart.
It's the nature of the campaign that makes the Cavalier so beefy. Lots of wilderness exploration, very little dungeon crawling.
Cavelier damage is situational to him riding, and he will not always be riding. Let him enjoy his time in the sun.
Because of the type of campaign though, he'll be riding & able to charge most of the time (and almost all of the time if he ever gets a flying mount).
If you want to get an idea of the DPR, take his stats and work them as a fighter (with favourite weapon like a falcata or falchion), barbarian (raging), paladin (smiting), or ranger (archery, fighting favoured enemy). Doesn't look so bad now, does it?
Actually, his DPR is almost triple what the fighter would get.
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.Based on an enemy AC of 19.
Cavalier LV4 with a Lance in 2 hands and Spirited Charge and PA
+11 to hit. 34.5 damage 20/x3 crit = 23.805 DPR (No PA)+10 to hit. 43.5 damage 20/x3 crit = 27.5175 DPR (PA at -1)
+9 to hit. 52.5 damage 20/x3 crit = 30.1875 DPR (PA at -2)
vs Cheapy's LV4 Fighter
+9 to hit. 21 damage 19-20/x2 = 12.6 DPR (PA at -2)
The gap would probably close somewhat around level 6 - a hasted fighter might get three hits in a round, which I don't think a cavalier can match on a charge.
|
|
The reason the cavalier is doing so much is the triple damage on a charge, and due to the kind of campaign we're in, he can charge very very often. Rideby attack makes it so he's typically far enough away after the charge that the lowered AC isn't such a big deal to him.
Once he hits 6th, he'll do damage equivalent to a ranger wielding two longswords with the first TWF feat, if said ranger took no penalties to hit for any of that.
It's the "triple damage, no penalties" that puts him so far ahead of the curve.
I'm going to see how much I can curb that due to circumstances, without it seeming overly contrived. I've talked to the player and he realizes he does much more damage than normal for his level though. If that doesn't work, he's understanding if I nerf the ability (by giving it a cooldown) to put him around what an optimized fighter of his level could do, and gradually removing the cooldown so he keeps up with an optimized fighter as he levels up.
It's basically Improved Vital Strike plus, at level 4, which can be combined with powerattack and charge freely, so long as he's on a horse.
Sometimes you need to make mechanics where hit point damage isn't the real importance.
For example, creating an encounter of reanimating skeletons/golems is a great idea. It allows the guy to do what he enjoys while at the same time not trivializing the encounter, since the obvious method of just stabbing at them does nothing.
Also, implementing high levels of DR is a great way to help counteract it. Using Incorporeals is another great idea, since unless he has a Ghost Touch weapon, means all his attacks are at best at 50% strength.
|
|
Well, I can go ahead and tell you that there are ways to completely negate the penalty for rough terrain. In fact, you ever heard of featherstep slippers? That's an inexpensive item that allows you to literally just ignore rough terrain, and it is possible to set up a mount to wear those. Wheeling charge will also allow the cavalier to make charging attacks at formerly impossible angles, so if you really want to shut down his damage, you'll probably need flying enemies; terrain and obstacles won't cut it anymore.
However, I will also say something else: Don't punish him because he built his character well. That is in no way deserving of you go out of your way to render him ineffective any more than you'd do it to the other party members. Simply provide groups of enemies, or if not fair sized groups, then a handful of reasonably powerful enemies should suffice. Try not to look at it as "balanced" DPR; that line of thinking is why people that enjoy optimized characters get ostracized so much already.
|
|
Well, I can go ahead and tell you that there are ways to completely negate the penalty for rough terrain. In fact, you ever heard of featherstep slippers? That's an inexpensive item that allows you to literally just ignore rough terrain, and it is possible to set up a mount to wear those. Wheeling charge will also allow the cavalier to make charging attacks at formerly impossible angles, so if you really want to shut down his damage, you'll probably need flying enemies; terrain and obstacles won't cut it anymore.
However, I will also say something else: Don't punish him because he built his character well. That is in no way deserving of you go out of your way to render him ineffective any more than you'd do it to the other party members. Simply provide groups of enemies, or if not fair sized groups, then a handful of reasonably powerful enemies should suffice. Try not to look at it as "balanced" DPR; that line of thinking is why people that enjoy optimized characters get ostracized so much already.
If the other characters weren't also supposed to be "Optimized" for combat and yet are unable to keep up it wouldnt be a concern. The rest of the group consists of an a tactician fighter (as optimized as he could manage with spears of various types (I allow weapon focus with groups, not just individual weapons), an optimized archer ranger, a fairly optimized bard, and a non-optimized blaster/utility sorcerer. (Yes, they have no healer, and no rogue). If it was just the blaster/utility sorcerer who wasn't keeping up in damage I wouldn't be concerned, but the Cavalier is doing more than double the damage of the other two combat characters.
If this was a campaign where I could just say "well, he only gets it when he is outside and able to ride his horse, and they spend half their time in a dungeon" then it would not be a concern at all. Thats not the case in this campaign.
The player has actually apologized to me that he built a character that wrecks face so much, and asked me if I needed to reign him in a bit, or if anything else needed to be done.
Anyways. Seeing what sorts of numbers are pretty reasonable for a damage-based fighter at this level show me how much above the curve he is, and I will have to mitigate it somehow. Perhaps some non-hp based encounters, or some archers on a cliff/in trees, or some flying opponents. The ranged encounters will help the Ranger feel pretty awesome, which will be good. For the non-HP encounters, maybe some monsters, that (if not killed with energy damage) split into more monsters, ala Slimes?