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I think blandness in this case is in the eye of the beholder.
Which eye? The central one or one of the eye stalks?
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That's... a really cool system, Vivian!
I would ask, though, how do kobolds avoid the potential problems with inbreeding, or do you simply ignore that?
(Which is okay, by the way, given we're talking a fantasy society with fantasy characteristics and fantasy races. I'm just curious.)
I ignore it. I figure a combination of magic and a sufficiently large and diverse population (especially magic that helps have a large population---such as teleportation) are enough to avoid it. But this isn't an area I'm personally too knowledgeable about, so I don't know what the real-world solutions would be.
Also, to the people saying they like these kobolds, thanks :)
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I think blandness in this case is in the eye of the beholder.Which eye? The central one or one of the eye stalks?
Disintegrate ray, obviously. You don't get much more flavorless than ash.
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Disintegrate ray, obviously. You don't get much more flavorless than ash.I think blandness in this case is in the eye of the beholder.Which eye? The central one or one of the eye stalks?
You're right. A feast of ashes isn't very appetizing. Not at all.
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It should have been followed by Princess leaves Prince...Prince's family declares war on the Princess's kingdom for breaking their family alliance and moves in to claim the lands that were added to the family possessions in the marriage.
And that dichotomy about the Prince and the Princess you just drew is laughably not historical.
No, if it was Modern values it'd be "Prince kisses sleeping Princess, thus lifting curse- she then has him arrested for Assault. Sues him & family, gets his Kingdom. Goes on a world wide tour of "eat, pray, love" gets a best seller and a Movie deal, quits the Princess gig ...."
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I think blandness in this case is in the eye of the beholder.
I respect that. But i can't relate to a black human race that never were slaved, they are different from my ancestors, maybe cousins. To me playing them is the same as playing with australian bushmen (the only ethnicity that i am sure that i have not any blood relation). I know nothing about them. I also know nothing about how to be a man in a struggless society, never heard about anything like that. Is so strange to me as the doppleganger ecology, alien.
Magic is magic and all that, but unless every commoner can cast spell of some sort then The biological physical diferences of our world between males and females are there for great majority of population.No, they're saying in a world where people could always do those things, they would be less likely to arise, if they ever did at all.
The real world is having to deal with thousands of years of that sort of discrimination being built-in that most fantasy worlds wouldn't have to overcome.
You're missing the point. Not everyone has to have magic. It just has to exist, and the potential to use it has to not be limited by sex (or ethnicity, or even to some extent species).
Same goes for the capacity to take levels in any class, really.
I think blandness in this case is in the eye of the beholder.I respect that. But i can't relate to a black human race that never were slaved, they are different from my ancestors, maybe cousins. To me playing them is the same as playing with australian bushmen (the only ethnicity that i am sure that i have not any blood relation). I know nothing about them. I also know nothing about how to be a man in a struggless society, never heard about anything like that. Is so strange to me as the doppleganger ecology, alien.
I can't help you then.
Heck, the more alien I can get in my RP, the happier I typically am. I try to RP as far from normalcy as I can. It's why I never play humans.
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fantasy settins designed for a game, unlikes the ones designed for a novel, benefits from cultures that are like the ones presented in history. It does not have to be equal, but saying that the guys from the linnorn kingdom are like viking make easier the work of GM in general.
I agree -and I don't think that the 1st ed PHB was wrong in putting strength caps based off of race and gender. Even though it's a game Gygax and Co. were trying to emulate biological reality, where reality or realistic comparisons could be applied to the system.
This is a good thing.
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fantasy settins designed for a game, unlikes the ones designed for a novel, benefits from cultures that are like the ones presented in history. It does not have to be equal, but saying that the guys from the linnorn kingdom are like viking make easier the work of GM in general.I agree -and I don't think that the 1st ed PHB was wrong in putting strength caps based off of race and gender. Even though it's a game Gygax and Co. were trying to emulate biological reality, where reality or realistic comparisons could be applied to the system.
This is a good thing.
Not if it's not fun for the players, it isn't.
But I think that quantity of magic in a society is crucial. Yeah, everyone fear the great witch of the forest, too bad she is the only female in 1000 miles that can cast spells, or whatever.
Just the existence of magic is too little.
Gotcha. I admittedly play in a high-magic world where spellcasters of all races and genders are common enough to be identified on sight (though identifying if that's a wizard or sorcerer or magus or psion or archivist or invoker or occultist might be trickier unless you know the specific signs to look for) and Golarion is likewise a pretty magic-intensive world so I presumed that was a given.
Heck, the more alien I can get in my RP, the happier I typically am. I try to RP as far from normalcy as I can. It's why I never play humans.How can you roleplay something you cant understand ?
I'm a GM. I *have* to be able to RP things I don't understand. Can we really comprehend the way an aboleth's brain works? A Worm That Walks? Heck, any kind of Fey? Most Aberrations? Long-term Undead?
The best you can do is get as much into the mindset of the thing as possible, and wing it/fake it from there.
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Not if it's not fun for the players, it isn't.fantasy settins designed for a game, unlikes the ones designed for a novel, benefits from cultures that are like the ones presented in history. It does not have to be equal, but saying that the guys from the linnorn kingdom are like viking make easier the work of GM in general.I agree -and I don't think that the 1st ed PHB was wrong in putting strength caps based off of race and gender. Even though it's a game Gygax and Co. were trying to emulate biological reality, where reality or realistic comparisons could be applied to the system.
This is a good thing.
Yeah, if want a weak woman, you can give her low scores, but a woman can be the strongest human of the world. You could say that is not common of human to be that strong, but everyone has potential to be the best.
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How can you roleplay something you cant understand ?I'm a GM. I *have* to be able to RP things I don't understand. Can we really comprehend the way an aboleth's brain works? A Worm That Walks? Heck, any kind of Fey? Most Aberrations? Long-term Undead?
The best you can do is get as much into the mindset of the thing as possible, and wing it/fake it from there.
So your aboleths have the same psichological deepness than your human NPCs ? I really incapable of doing that right, congratulations.
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Not if it's not fun for the players, it isn't.fantasy settins designed for a game, unlikes the ones designed for a novel, benefits from cultures that are like the ones presented in history. It does not have to be equal, but saying that the guys from the linnorn kingdom are like viking make easier the work of GM in general.I agree -and I don't think that the 1st ed PHB was wrong in putting strength caps based off of race and gender. Even though it's a game Gygax and Co. were trying to emulate biological reality, where reality or realistic comparisons could be applied to the system.
This is a good thing.
What if the players don't care?
That is, what if we (my players and I) wanted a more realistic representation of biological limitation - based on height, sex, whatever. Should I let people who are not playing in my game determine the level of immersion the rules are trying to present due to political correctness or female privilege?Should political correctness or influence from a group that isn't the target demogrophic for the product deterime the ruleset?
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So your aboleths have the same psichological deepness than your human NPCs ? I really incapable of doing that right, congratulations.
How can you roleplay something you cant understand ?I'm a GM. I *have* to be able to RP things I don't understand. Can we really comprehend the way an aboleth's brain works? A Worm That Walks? Heck, any kind of Fey? Most Aberrations? Long-term Undead?
The best you can do is get as much into the mindset of the thing as possible, and wing it/fake it from there.
This could be a good thread actually : how do you roleplay the mindset of other, very different, intelligent creatures ?
So your aboleths have the same psichological deepness than your human NPCs ? I really incapable of doing that right, congratulations.
How can you roleplay something you cant understand ?I'm a GM. I *have* to be able to RP things I don't understand. Can we really comprehend the way an aboleth's brain works? A Worm That Walks? Heck, any kind of Fey? Most Aberrations? Long-term Undead?
The best you can do is get as much into the mindset of the thing as possible, and wing it/fake it from there.
I try to make them noticeably different, yes. I try to make them inscrutable and difficult to comprehend, because they're alien creatures.
I'm running Kingmaker right now, so there's lots of Fey. I'm getting lots of practice at it - especially since some of the fey are "mortal-like" from either being very young or living "closer" to mortals for so long, while others are very alien and different and see the world through an entirely different lens. Their viewpoints, their morality, and their thought processes are turned at a completely different angle than most humanoids, and as GM I have to express that to my players, to make that alien-ness of thought visible to them, to show them what a bizarre set of creatures they are dealing with.
It's a learning experience, for sure. I'm not perfect, but I'm working on it.
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Did the women also have specific advantages that "emulated biological reality" ?
If yes, how happy were the male players with that ?
As stated before, I prefer the zero difference for specific characters. It opens up a wider diversity of roleplaying and stories IMO.
If you wanted to make a lot of soldiers, you had to have a lot of women, as one men could impregnate all them alone. Proably why or gene pool is so thin.
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Not if it's not fun for the players, it isn't.fantasy settins designed for a game, unlikes the ones designed for a novel, benefits from cultures that are like the ones presented in history. It does not have to be equal, but saying that the guys from the linnorn kingdom are like viking make easier the work of GM in general.I agree -and I don't think that the 1st ed PHB was wrong in putting strength caps based off of race and gender. Even though it's a game Gygax and Co. were trying to emulate biological reality, where reality or realistic comparisons could be applied to the system.
This is a good thing.
What if the players don't care?
That is, what if we (my players and I) wanted a more realistic representation of biological limitation - based on height, sex, whatever. Should I let people who are not playing in my game determine the level of immersion the rules are trying to present due to political correctness or female privilege?
I do not think anyone advocated forbidding houserules in any way or shape actually
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This could be a good thread actually : how do you roleplay the mindset of other, very different, intelligent creatures ?So your aboleths have the same psichological deepness than your human NPCs ? I really incapable of doing that right, congratulations.
How can you roleplay something you cant understand ?I'm a GM. I *have* to be able to RP things I don't understand. Can we really comprehend the way an aboleth's brain works? A Worm That Walks? Heck, any kind of Fey? Most Aberrations? Long-term Undead?
The best you can do is get as much into the mindset of the thing as possible, and wing it/fake it from there.
Well, spinning off my example of Fey since it's currently fresh in my mind.
Fey morality doesn't care about good and evil, for the most part. They care about truth vs. lies, keeping an even score, and honoring deals and contracts - to the letter, not the spirit. They're a lot like Devils that way, but rather than actively malevolent, they're just greedy. Most Fey only care about the self - their own pleasure, their own entertainment, their own profit, their own comfort. Any agreements they make will be because they can get something out of it, either they will get a good laugh at someone's expense, or something of value that they can trade (preferably for something of equal or greater value), or something that tickles another of their fancies (such as revenge). These trades will always be "fair" but they'll be "fair" from the Fey's POV, not the mortal's, and they don't care about money or what something's monetary value is. Value is determined by other factors: age, power, magic, importance, historical relevance, sentimental value, and such like.
They will go to extreme lengths to enforce their contracts and agreements, as if physically forced - by some sort of natural geas - to abide by the letter of their word, but they will scheme and connive and plot for every loophole they can find.
That's a nice start. There's a lot more I could go into but that's basically a good basic mindset for running with Fey.
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I'm part of the target demographic. I support losing gender caps/penalties on stats. Is it really that important to keep female from making effective STR based martial characters? In a game in which characters quickly become superheroes anyway?
Did I reference 3rd/pathfinder/superhero edition? No, I didn't.
"My male human fighter is as strong as a 20' tall giant!"
"Cool!!!""My female dwarven barbarian is as strong as a 20' tall giant, too."
"That's completely unrealistic. You're breaking my sense of immersion."Makes no sense.
Makes perfect sense, 18(00) (male human cap) and 18(50) (the cap for female humans/male gnomes) were not supernatural strength scores.
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To repost something I said in another thread:
Oh my god, I cannot believe that in 2014, someone is defending a -4 strength rule. Ew.
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That's... a really cool system, Vivian!
I would ask, though, how do kobolds avoid the potential problems with inbreeding, or do you simply ignore that?
(Which is okay, by the way, given we're talking a fantasy society with fantasy characteristics and fantasy races. I'm just curious.)I ignore it. I figure a combination of magic and a sufficiently large and diverse population (especially magic that helps have a large population---such as teleportation) are enough to avoid it. But this isn't an area I'm personally too knowledgeable about, so I don't know what the real-world solutions would be.
Also, to the people saying they like these kobolds, thanks :)
Yeah...neat take on kobolds.
Oh...the inbreeding problem? I wouldn't worry about it. There are lots of animals which actually do something similar. At least one mechanism I have read about is that there are differences in chemical cues/smell between individuals that are based on heredity. Organisms innately are not attractive to individuals which "smell" like them.
So..applied to kobolds, Kobolds for whatever reason just may not find certain kobolds attractive, because they smell/taste wrong. They probably have no idea why they taste/smell wrong, but it's sufficient to keep two sibling from knocking boots (or claws in this case). No magic necessary.
FYI, some of my reptilian races sort of work similarly...at least some species have no concept of "gender" and think it's weird and confusing, and are apt to consider a female human and a male human as entirely different species.
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I think something to keep in mind is that there are modern people playing these games, so depending on the person, some liberties need to be taken. Which is fine, since a fantasy world doesn't model reality, merely reflects it.
I can tell you right now, in my Renaissance/Age of Exploration game set in the psuedo-Caribbean, there is slavery and the slave trade. But, there are also abolitionists and the laws for slaves aren't anywhere near as harsh as in real life because I personally don't want to delve into that when I play. Got enough of that from a GM from my childhood.
At the end of the day, my players want to play D&D, not Jim Crow: The RPG ;)
OH MY GOD. THIS. THANK YOU.
Because up until this I only saw people discussing gender issues. It made me start to feel like maybe, MAYBE as a black d00d whose been playing and running FRPGS for over 20 years that I'VE BEEN DOING IT WRONG.
As someone who's more directly affected by the sorts of gender issues that come up in these discussions, I just want to say thank you to you and others (like Odraude) who bring up issues of race as well.
Darn, my posts seemed to have gone up in smoke (with the site going down?).
What I was getting at, is that modern values will inevitably creep in, but they don't have to; and playing directly against them or off in a totally different direction can be fun!
Some say equality between the sexes/genders/races must be represented in-game. Well in fantasy I like to do things a bit different. Such as societies where female warriors are in control and the men tend to farm, hearth and home. See how your all male party deals with that.
Break and change from the present however you wish, if you have the inclination.
Fantasy can, after all, be fantastical.
As a dm, if you find you are getting a bit repetitive, it can be quite a fun exercise to go and read differing philosophies and belief systems, national geographic articles, anthropology, history texts on the ancient world, anything to facilitate the presentation in game of new societies, beliefs, ideas and values.
Avoid Rome though, Rome is overdone.
Go nuts in the search of difference, and have fun. I am always happy when the players are really surprised at the cultures I throw at them.
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I dunno. Vicariously bashing a thinly veiled fantasy analog for the real world behavior you don't like in the face with a big honking axe can be pretty cathartic.
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For sure.
The players meeting something that is quite alien to modern values can also be worthwhile.
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I think it's pretty obvious, really... If we can play whoever we like as players, which is no great stretch considering PCs are already exceptional people by any measure, and if there can be a maximum variation among societies in the game world, we get the best possible situation. Even if this means that not every society in said world is an equal-opportunity, gender-aware, work-environment-regulated, democratic place.
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I think the bottom line should be that some people like some things in their fantasy, and other people like others. It doesn't make a GM a terrible person if they have societys in their world that treat various races in their world differently. Or cultures that treat genders differently.
As long as the players can create a character in the world that they'll enjoy playing, and as long as the GM and players communicate on what topics or elements they don't enjoy, the campaign should work out.
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The following is my opinion on the OP:
1. What is a fantasy setting? What should it be based on and should it reflect a certain series of social/cultural values?
A fantasy setting is a made-up world coming entirely from one's own imagination. It can and often does draw from real world inspiration, from the ancient world to present day, but by its nature can draw from any number of sources of information and combine things as the creator sees fit, as well as create ideas from whole cloth.
A well-crafted fantasy world contains an internal logic as to why things are the way they are within the world. No social value, cultural reflection, or anything else, should be able to be solely explained by "because that's the way it is/was on Earth at X time," even if inspiration is drawn from that -- rather, you should be able to outline a line of events or describe in-world cultural values as to why something is. For example, an explanation could be that there is a high standard of living, so levels of oppression may be lower, or that the gods cursed a certain race and that is why they are generally hated. But not, "because that's what it's like somewhere else."
Furthermore, a good world builder thinks about how the presence of fantasy elements--gods who are palpably real, magic, mystical creatures--effects the physical, mental, and social evolution of the world's inhabitants both individually and as a society. A high-magic world where magic effectively exists in lieu of advanced technology may in fact most resemble contemporary Earth societies, even if it looks superficially very different. (I mean really, if I could get a +2 mithral chain shirt, I'd actually rather have that over a concealable kevlar tactical vest.)
Most contemporary Western fantasy draws from European mythology and a number of time periods from the ancient world through about the 17th century, and good contemporary Western fantasy puts a number of twists upon any concepts "borrowed."
What is a medieval setting? Should fantasy settings draw from medieval values and structures?
A medieval setting is inspired very specifically the societies of medieval Europe (sometimes stretching out to other cultures at the same time, but normally focused upon). It would resemble a relatively low-tech, low-magic world where the social structure would have at its top religious leaders, followed by military leaders, followed by laborers at the bottom of the social hierarchy. Something drawing from medieval folklore like King Arthur or Robin Hood might also qualify.
I do not believe fantasy settings should be exclusively based on medieval Europe, although of course, they can be, and that's just as valid as world inspired by ancient Egypt, or 12th century China, or one that's about one-armed green people who are telepathic and live in bubbles.
I have played two games that you could accurately call "medieval fantasy": Ars Magica, which takes place in a more magical version of medieval Europe, and Chivalry and Sorcery, which takes place in fictional worlds highly inspired by medieval Europe. These settings do an excellent job of reflecting what a medieval fantasy world would be like, and if you ever want to see what playing in a medieval fantasy world is actually like, I recommend them (I prefer Ars Magica, personally--C&S is very fiddly and "oldskool" in mechanics design). They are also designed well that you can play a wide array of character concepts--of course if you play something out of the social norm, it is acknowledged and something to be borne in mind, but of course fantasy heroes tend not to be "of the norm" anyway.
I'd also shout out to Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade, which is set in Renaissance Europe and also includes references to other cultures during the same time period, especially Arabic cultures and China.
Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons, and similar games do not have settings resemble medieval fantasy for the most part, at least in the campaigns in which I have played them. They tend to be a mishmosh of ancient worlds, Renaissance and Age of Reason values, as well as of industrial worlds where magic has replaced the innovations of industry. Some of them even reflect more contemporary societies, where again, magic has replaced technology. I think many (though not all of course) settings in these games are well designed, as they contain fair internal consistency, with some poetic license for "fun" and "rule of cool."
But this is the real issue: can I include social issues some players may feel are controversial or unfair?
Your players are the one to ask that question, ultimately.
As a GM, I feel my primary job is to be sure my players are having fun--and an essential part of that is being sure the players (which may be different from the PCs) feel respected and that their feelings matter. If there is subject matter that would make them feel uncomfortable, ostracized, bullied, or otherwise ruin their fun, I would be sure not to include it.
I can and do certainly include elements of ostracism, oppression, and similar issues -- for examples, a half-drow was called a "demon" by some enemies the party fought last night -- but I am always sure to be clear it is an element of the world, and that I use elements that would not make my players feel alienated.
To be very clear: I think it is very possible to include things like discrimination and oppression in a game world. The essential thing first of all is to be sure that it is clear that it is part of the game's FICTION, and that it is not about the PLAYERS. MOREOVER, and to me, more importantly, as a GM I have to understand different players will have different levels of tolerance and comfort when it comes to addressing certain social issues. I feel it is my job as GM, whose primary job is to be sure MY PLAYERS are having fun, to listen to my players' feedback and remove elements that ruin their fun. I feel it is not my job as a GM to use my players as experimental subjects to use game elements on them that may interest me but may make them feel uncomfortable--and I will wait until I find a group of players that may accept certain "experiments" more than others before I would try such a thing. After all, some people may have fun with some more experimental or controversial issues--others do not. It is not my job as GM to tell players who do not have fun with these things that they are having wrongbadfun, it is my job to provide the fun they seek or, at best, suggest they seek a different group.
I feel that if a GM uses elements in a setting that do make players feel alienated, ostracized, or uncomfortable, and then they say, "oh, but it's the setting, that's just how the world is, and it wouldn't be realistic" and think that is a valid excuse for making their players feel alienated, ostracized, or uncomfortable, that GM is a douchebag. I think a person who thinks anyone is WRONG for feeling ostracized, alienated, or uncomfortable, is a dehumanizing, feeling-discounting, victim-blaming asshat, and I have no time for them. I will happily both leave that kind of GM and invite the players feeling uncomfortable to my table, where they are guaranteed my best effort at their having fun in a setting that is as innovative, internally consistent, and imagination-inspiring as I can make it.
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Not if it's not fun for the players, it isn't.fantasy settins designed for a game, unlikes the ones designed for a novel, benefits from cultures that are like the ones presented in history. It does not have to be equal, but saying that the guys from the linnorn kingdom are like viking make easier the work of GM in general.I agree -and I don't think that the 1st ed PHB was wrong in putting strength caps based off of race and gender. Even though it's a game Gygax and Co. were trying to emulate biological reality, where reality or realistic comparisons could be applied to the system.
This is a good thing.
What if the players don't care?
That is, what if we (my players and I) wanted a more realistic representation of biological limitation - based on height, sex, whatever. Should I let people who are not playing in my game determine the level of immersion the rules are trying to present due to political correctness or female privilege?Should political correctness or influence from a group that isn't the target demogrophic for the product deterime the ruleset?
I'm part of the target demographic. I support losing gender caps/penalties on stats. Is it really that important to keep female from making effective STR based martial characters? In a game in which characters quickly become superheroes anyway?
"My male human fighter is as strong as a 20' tall giant!"
"Cool!!!""My female dwarven barbarian is as strong as a 20' tall giant, too."
"That's completely unrealistic. You're breaking my sense of immersion."Makes no sense.
My issue is the opposite, no one says a word about the 140 pound woman maxed out strength but the 140 pound man is too puny to be so strong.
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I think this can also bring up the dichotomy between GMs who looks at their PCs as the "protagonists" and thus set apart from every other character in the story (the NPCs) or as "average joes" that the game lens happens to focus on for a time.
Neither perspective is out-and-out-wrong. In either case, you need a little from the other sideS: the PCs need to feel that they're special in some way, but they do need to feel like they belong in the world they're in.
The disagreement over how much of each is part of where this "modern values" debate come to it's head, I think. I prefer to emphasize the latter. It may be very uncommon to have a have a woman be as or more physically strong than the male warrior in her party, but it is still within the domain of biological possibility even BEFORE we take things like having an orc grandfather into account, so what's the problem? The majority of female NPCs in the game will not have their strength that high because it isn't typical, how it is "unrealistic" if there is only one lady in the story that is that strong, or only a handful?
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Darn, my posts seemed to have gone up in smoke (with the site going down?).
What I was getting at, is that modern values will inevitably creep in, but they don't have to; and playing directly against them or off in a totally different direction can be fun!
Some say equality between the sexes/genders/races must be represented in-game. Well in fantasy I like to do things a bit different. Such as societies where female warriors are in control and the men tend to farm, hearth and home. See how your all male party deals with that.
Break and change from the present however you wish, if you have the inclination.
Fantasy can, after all, be fantastical.
That kind of thing is fine as a weird place to visit in a fantasy game. Or if your group really wants to focus on gender roles an/or overcoming them.
But it seems to me that you really want opportunities for both genders to play any role, or at least any adventuring role, without having to struggle with societies bias against it. And you probably want the main adventuring area to be pretty egalitarian. Otherwise you're either limiting a player's character options or forcing them to deal with whole gender bias thing even when they're not interested.If a player really is interested in playing out an overcoming gender stereotypes/oppression theme then it's probably best to either build a campaign world around that, while allowing the other player's choices to work without such problems, or to have that character be from and have a good deal of the campaign take place in a society with the appropriate gender roles.
Actually, we have the very same points valid not only for PC genders but also for the PC species, and especially the half-breeds.
Should we just pretend that the differences in treatment do not exist ? Ot that they are very rare (even though they are usually mentioned time and again in the CRB, the APs, the Modules and the sourcebooks) ?
I usually go for a comfortable compromise : the prejudices and bigotry exist but quickly enough the PCs will be so powerful and such big heroes/villains that most NPCs' reaction to them will based on the PCs and their actions rather than on their gender, species, religion or other specific trait. The aforementioned prejudices will softly fade in the background unless the players enjoy dealing with them.