I'm sure this has been implemented/commented by many people in the past and present. All the same I wanted to mention a house rule I have been using for years, taking a paragraph from D&D 4.0 (even a broken clock is right twice a day):
* Strength OR Constitution for Fortitude saves (idea: physical conditioning
* Dexterity OR Intelligence for Reflex saves (idea: right place at right time)
* Wisdom OR Charisma for Will saves (idea: force of presence/personality/will)
If it's new to you or old news, it'd be good to know what you think!
I haven't heard of doing this before, but on its face it doesn't seem too bad. The problem I see with it is characters really dumping a stat if it doesn't negatively effect a save for them. I guess that doesn't bother some people, but I really don't like dumping more than one stat, and generally never all of the way to 7.
I like, but would never allow it with point buy.
If you also import the 4e rule that you can only have one sub-10 stat, it would probably work better ... though PF's negative-stat-adjustment issue gets in the way of that.
A paladin would get 2*cha mode to will saves, and str+cha in fort saves.
I think something like this would need to come at a cost; it couldn't be something given away freely. For example, what if I, as an oracle, pick to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for my Will saves? If I go Nature/Lore/Moon Mystery, I would be using my Charisma on two of my three saving throws.
Seems a little too good to me. Remember 4th Edition was designed with this rule in mind.
I don't use point buy. Generally, I come up with a different attribute rule for each group I run for, depending upon composition, expected length-of-campaign, anticipated difficulty and group makeup. For a "Way of the Wicked" group I ran for, attributes were 18,16,14,12,10,8 (a very challenging adventure path, to be sure). Another set I've used often in the past: 16,15,14,13,12,10.
Also, as a point of reference, the folks I game with the most design characters for roleplay vice roll-play. Doing this for saves balances them out a bit for classes that otherwise suffer (e.g. Wizard, Sorcerer). I'm not worried about people trying to stack them too high, as there are numerous ways for the world to bite back.
Doing this for saves balances them out a bit for classes that otherwise suffer (e.g. Wizard, Sorcerer). I'm not worried about people trying to stack them too high, as there are numerous ways for the world to bite back.
Heh, yeah, the poor reality warping wizard.
EDIT: I do like the idea for this though, I may have to "borrow" it for my group.
* Strength OR Constitution for Fortitude saves (idea: physical conditioning
* Dexterity OR Intelligence for Reflex saves (idea: right place at right time)
* Wisdom OR Charisma for Will saves (idea: force of presence/personality/will)
Use the worse stat bonus.
Use the worse stat bonus.
* Strength OR Constitution for Fortitude saves (idea: physical conditioning
* Dexterity OR Intelligence for Reflex saves (idea: right place at right time)
* Wisdom OR Charisma for Will saves (idea: force of presence/personality/will)
Why on earth should the worse stat bonus be used? Is the current method for determining save bonuses too much?
I think the idea works really well for 4E, but is too good with straight point buy in PF/3.5. As others have said, dump stats then become super-dump stats and min-maxed PCs just get that much better.
What I have heard of, is substituting in skills to use as saves for specific situations or types of spells (either requiring it, or making it an option to use whatever is better). This would allow INT, CHA and STR based skills to play a part in saves but not blanket replace all of them, and can change things up a bit for the skills based on the save stats. For example, you could use Sense Motive (WIS) to save against a disguise self spell instead of a straight Will save, or whatever. Some of this would have to be made clear to PCs at character creation if it's to be widespread, and the GM would need to be careful, but could be fun.
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Use the worse stat bonus.
* Strength OR Constitution for Fortitude saves (idea: physical conditioning
* Dexterity OR Intelligence for Reflex saves (idea: right place at right time)
* Wisdom OR Charisma for Will saves (idea: force of presence/personality/will)
I like the idea of the saves being tied to both attributes. What about taking the average of the two modifiers.
I like the idea of the saves being tied to both attributes. What about taking the average of the two modifiers.Use the worse stat bonus.
* Strength OR Constitution for Fortitude saves (idea: physical conditioning
* Dexterity OR Intelligence for Reflex saves (idea: right place at right time)
* Wisdom OR Charisma for Will saves (idea: force of presence/personality/will)
13th Age, while not having the same defenses as Pathfinder (AC, Physical Def, & Mental Def vs. AC, Fort, Ref, & Will), uses the middle of three ability scores for each defense:
- AC: Middle of Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom
- Phys Def: Middle of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution
- Mental Def: Middle of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
Maybe for PF, it could be:
- Fortitude: Middle of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution (EDIT: Although, to be honest, I think Charisma would be better than Dexterity for some reason)
- Reflex: Middle of Dexterity, Intelligence, and Wisdom
- Will: Middle of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma