Diabetic Character? How to balance?


Advice


One of the players in a game I will be running wants to play Hansel, from Hansel and Gretel: Witch Hunters.

I'm building the character for him, and I thought it would be cool to include the "Sugar Sickness" he had as a drawback of some sort, and then give him either an extra trait or an extra feat as a benefit to make up for it.

I initially thought to design it as a drug addiction, but that didn't seem deadly enough, since an addiction only provides a static loss while in effect.

I then decided to look into diseases, but they were all slow-acting (only affecting the character 1/day). I needed something that, once it started, could endager the character in a few rounds.

So I looked into poisons, and I think that's how I want to model the effect. Each day, the character has to take their shot (or shots), or the sickness kicks in and starts dealing ability damage (likely Con) each round.

So, now I know how that part of it will work. What I'm having trouble doing is figuring out how the shots should work. I thought about making it a dose of antitoxin everyday, but that costs 50gp, and a daily drain of 50gp seems too steep. Even if he makes it himself, at lower levels it can be extremely difficult to pass the checks needed to make enough of the stuff.

What is a suggested amount for the shot to cost? Should it cost anything? Is the requirement to take shots daily enough of a problem for the character to warrant an extra trait? What about an extra feat?

Any suggestions on how to properly balance this would be appreciated.


I think going per round is a little too steep. What happens if sleep is cast on him and he over sleeps the correct time to take it. Might want to change the "frequency" to every half hour or fifteen minutes.

As for cost and balance give him another trait and make it cost as much as twice the amount of daily rations(2gp)(Since thats basically what it is). Sounds fair and fun enough :)

The cost shouldnt be what makes the effect worth giving a trait, the cost should be trivial. It should be the fear of the effect itself that defines the sickness ;)

Silver Crusade

Poisons sounds like a good idea.

Well your the GM, what you decides goes.

If you are looking for "realism", another part of Diabeties is testing the amount of "sugar" in your blood stream. Perhaps a leach that turns colors the worse it is?

I'm not sure what to suggest about the "medicine". Medicine is expensive. Perhaps have him pay 5 gp per dose?

Perhaps he should save up for a Cure Disease and be rid of it. In the long run it would be more cost effective.

Dose your player want a character saddled with this ?

I know I would not want a character with such a disease.
Good luck


The rest of the party would be able to administer his medicine if he were to be put to sleep or otherwise unable to do it himself. If the entire party is incapacitated, they're probably all dead anyway.

The trouble with the longer duration between triggers is that, in the movie, when the sickness came on, he pretty much immediately dropped to the floor. One minute, he is choking out a witch, the next, he's lying on the floor, dying. To me, this represents damage every round, not every few minutes or so. If this danger seems too great, it could warrant a free feat instead of just a trait.

I also agree that the cost of the cure will play a large part on whether he gets a free trait vs a free feat.

So, based off the fact that:

A) there will be no permanent cure for this
B) the damage will be every round once it kicks in

I still need to nail down 3 things:

1) How often does he need to take a shot?
2) How much does each shot cost (he will likely make it himself, but the GP cost is still needed to determine crafting)?
3) What is a fair trade for this drawback? Feat? Trait? Something else?

If it matters, the character is going to be a Gunslinger (Musket Master).

Grand Lodge

If this is something you want to be incurable, then look to Oracle Curses for ideas.


I'm not familiar with the movie, but it doesn't sound like actual diabetes.

So let's call it super diabetes. To model super diabetes, I would say uncurable, he needs to take a shot 2x/day, and the cost should be somewhat expensive, say 3 gold per shot, so 6 GP/day. That should be crafted price. If he has to buy it at a store, it should be basically impossible to find, very expensive, or both.

I would also make the shots spoil after say 2 or 3 days. He shouldn't be able to simply make a stockpile. This means he can't go off away from civilization for long periods of time (he's going to need a lab to make these.)

Because the downside is going to be very situational (its rarely going to affect him), I'd say just give him a free trait. I would also make sure he is aware that it will hurt him at some times (not all the time, but there will be situations where the negatives come into play.)

I'd make it something like if he doesn't get his shot, then he has to make a Con save every round, with an increasing DC each round. On a fail, he becomes exhausted & stunned. Basically he shouldn't be able to take any attacking actions, but he can grab his shot and inject himself.

Maybe the shot takes 1 or 2 rounds to actually take effect as well (again, not sure how quickly this occurs in the movie.)


Bleh :p

You should be having these conversations with the player. I would be pretty ticked off as a player if my GM told me that I have a "flaw" that is uncurable, a huge time and money sink at low level, and could kill me in mere rounds, and is likely to crop up during combat because that us cool sounding and reminds the GM of this one movie one time.

If the player is OK with it then go for it. (By OK with it, I mean that it was their idea originally and just asked you how you thought it should work mechanically.)

Flip this around and ask yourself this question: if a player said I have a great idea for a boon - I am super awesome at things. I take a shot everyday that I pay for and I will give up a feat, but once a week at a time of my choosing I get to become unquestionably the most strongest and powerful person in the room. Doesn't matter who else is there, I'm better for 10 rounds.

You would say no to that in a heartbeat. Because it takes control of the world away from you for 10 rounds and that us unacceptable. You are suggesting that he would lose control of his character for 10 rounds, basically at your whim, and for that he should get an extra trait (or maybe a feat, but he's gonna pay more for it!)

Really, have this conversation with the player.


Isn't the character's lifestyle (going on physically strenuous adventures and living on a medieval diet) pretty much the textbook method for avoiding nearly all symptoms of type II diabetes (which is what the character contracted from the weight gain and excessive sugar in his diet forced on him by the witch)?


OP: Do either of you know anything about diabetes? I have Type II at a low level.

I haven't seen the movie, but your description is NOT diabetes as we see it in RL.

I would make it an oracle curse that gives the following conditions in sequence:

Fatigue--> Exhausted --> Nauseated --> Dying

Perhaps he needs to roll an incrementing save for every round of physical exertion: Starting DC maybe 12-14. Every failure increases the severity.

Even if he's immune to fatigue and exhaustion, it accumulates and then he suddenly gets nauseated.

Treatment:
Requires sweet foods and rest (1 hour of rest per condition, improves by 1 step every hour. Magic may substitute (restorations).

I might give him the endurance and toughness feats for this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Isn't the character's lifestyle (going on physically strenuous adventures and living on a medieval diet) pretty much the textbook method for avoiding nearly all symptoms of type II diabetes (which is what the character contracted from weight gain and excessive sugar in his diet)?

This in a nutshell. Diabetes is essentially a result of modern First World diet with it's abundance of sugars and highly processed high carbonate foods which are almost absent in the standard gaming worlds. This is why diabetes was unknown in India, until American style food became much more common.


The movie takes extreme liberties with a lot of things. For example, in one scene the hand-cranked electromagnet they used as a stun gun/taser earlier in the film is used as a defibrillator to revive a minor character that had died from falling off a cliff. If you thought the car-battery thing in the Evil Dead remake was stupid, you will groan out loud at this point in the movie.

The diabetic character is played by Jeremy Renner (the guy who played Hawkeye in the Avengers) and he is seen injecting himself with some kind of steampunk insulin injector. I didn't think they even knew insulin helped manage diabetes at the point in history where the film took place.

Grand Lodge

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Call it Diabeetus.

Why? It is totally a fantasy condition.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Call it Diabeetus.

Why? It is totally a fantasy condition.

If you do that, He will stick his fingers through your cheek and then turn into a dog monster.

EDIT: Has He been in ANY other big movies? I can't think of a single one.


I'm seeing the roleplay side but certainly not the gameplay, you're forcing a player to waste resources on a trait that gives him a serious disadvange. What you've suggested sounds like it could easily outright kill the guy in a few rounds, I don't care what the trade off is but a free trait/feat isn't worth it.

~

If your player is happy to take on such a task I'd suggest:

The interpretation of diabetes into pathfinder closest resembles con damage. If the player doesn't take medicine x times a day their con mod goes down a score every 8 hours.
This affects their saves vs disease, reduces their hit points and makes them very difficult to stabilise in negative hp.

The problem with putting a value on medicine is it's too expensive at early levels and trivial at higher levels. Honestly I can see this guy dying either immediately early game or this effect never affecting him for the whole career. I don't see it needing a real cost, maybe more a heal check administered via healing kit. He rolls a heal check and it basically tell you how effective he was at administering his medicine. A successful DC15 lets him ignore all effects for 8 hours, every 5 points past that is +2 hours of safety. A failed check represents the medicine having little effect and a hidden D8 roll by GM will tell you when things start taking effect.

As a suitable trade? It'd really have to be something good or big. I'd give the player a few options.

*Player starts with a +1 weapon
*Gains the feat defiant luck to represent his heroic perseverance.
*Player gains at will detect magic and favoured enemy (like a ranger) bonus vs arcane casters
*For every penalty to con he takes, he gains a +2 to will saves (this encourages him to dance in the danger zone).

Grand Lodge

1st round: Staggered & Constitution Check DC 10(+1 ea. successful save(Medicine resets DC and ends effect)) or be stunned.

Each round of stunned: Constitution Check continued from above or go unconcious (0 hp).

Each round of unconcious: Constitution Check continued from above or begin Dying (-1 hp).

Each round of Dying: Constitution Check continued from above or DEAD!

Bonus: DR 5/- for Nonlethal damage and +4 bonus to saves vs Pain (possibly including the sugar sickness saves) effects.

Dark Archive

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Call it Diabeetus.

Why? It is totally a fantasy condition.

If you do that, He will stick his fingers through your cheek and then turn into a dog monster.

EDIT: Has He been in ANY other big movies? I can't think of a single one.

He is the mayor in American Hustle.


jerdog wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Call it Diabeetus.

Why? It is totally a fantasy condition.

If you do that, He will stick his fingers through your cheek and then turn into a dog monster.

EDIT: Has He been in ANY other big movies? I can't think of a single one.

He is the mayor in American Hustle.

Holy crap that's awesome.


LazarX wrote:
high carbonate foods.

What does the CO3 -2 anion have to do with this?


Checked with the player; he said he was fine without the additional drawback/benefit, so I guess it's a moot point. I thought it seemed very flavorful (he was the one that asked for the character; I just thought of adding in that aspect of it). But to each their own.

I agree that the Con damage seemed like a lot, since it takes a while to heal. I like the idea of increasingly detrimental status conditions instead. I don't think I would have allowed saves against them; the point would be that he had to take his medicine, not being able to just 'power' through it, though the increasing DC would make 'powering' through impossible at some point.

Also, I admit it would have only been a rough estimate of how Diabetes actually works in real life. No offense to people who actually have to deal with it was intended. I'm just one lowly person who has had little interaction with anyone who has it and was basing its effects off the movie and what little research I've done on it myself.

As for the "time period" of the movie; I don't even want to try and discuss that. The equipment in the movie was all over the place. You ahve daub-and-wattle buildings, and thatch-roofs alongside gatling guns, a rifle that seemingly uses a clip but never needs reloading, an automatic-firing crossbow...I think trying to say what is and isn't within the confines of the time period is a moot point.

Anyway, thanks for everyones interest and input. Feel free to continue to discuss it if you like. I'd still be interested to know what would be a fair way to balance such a concept.

If you have different ideas for how to implement it, feel free to post both your interpretation of the affliction along with what you view as a fair trade off for it. I think posting both makes more sense, because each person is going to have their own idea of what is balanced; so if we try to set one thing in stone (such as the affliction) there will of course be a vast array of ideas on what is balanced against that. But each person could post their idea for the affliction and an appropriate boon to balance it and get feedback on that combination.

I also agree that there seems to be a non-linear progression here. Early on, needing access to something based on funds can be difficult to sustain, whereas it can be trivial later on, so balancing it would require providing a benefit that's more useful early on, while being less useful at later levels, where the affliction isn't as detrimental.


The movie also had witches with magic from dark powers. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be entirely historically accurate.


Dave Justus wrote:
The movie also had witches with magic from dark powers. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be entirely historically accurate.

+1


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Call it Diabeetus.

Why? It is totally a fantasy condition.

If you do that, He will stick his fingers through your cheek and then turn into a dog monster.

EDIT: Has He been in ANY other big movies? I can't think of a single one.

Hurt Locker, Bourne Legacy, The Town, 28 Weeks Later, Lords of Dogtown

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