Abilities replaced by archetypes

[isdestroyer]

If an archetype replaces a class feature that is also a feat, can you then take that ability as a feat later on, or are you forever locked out of acquiring the ability?

Ex: A Zen Archer replaces a monks stunning fist, which is also a feat. Once your character meets the prerequisites for stunning fist, can you take it as a feat, or does the fact that the archetype replaced it mean you can never gain stunning fist?

[Cheapy]

You can still take the feat...you just don't get it as a bonus feat.

[Drakkiel]

And you do t get all the extras like a normal monk does

[Dragonchess Player]

If the class feature that an archetype replaces is "you receive X as a bonus feat," then you can still take feat X as a normal feat with the archetype... but you have to meet all the prerequisites to do so.

In the case of a zen archer (or other monk archetype that replaces Stunning Fist with something else), they have to wait until 9th level (when they gain the +8 BAB prerequisite, assuming they have 13+ Dex and 13+ Wis) to select it as a normal feat.

[Pupsocket]

Drakkiel wrote:

And you do t get all the extras like a normal monk does

I disagree. Stunning Fist, for example, gives you more uses if you have Monk levels. Not "if you received this feat as a bonus feat from the Monk class", but simply if you have Monk levels. Do you have any support for your position?

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Pupsocket wrote:

Drakkiel wrote:

And you do t get all the extras like a normal monk does

I disagree. Stunning Fist, for example, gives you more uses if you have Monk levels. Not "if you received this feat as a bonus feat from the Monk class", but simply if you have Monk levels. Do you have any support for your position?

You would get the extra uses of stun because that is in the feat description. You would not be able to inflict the different conditions (nauseated, staggered, ect.) as that is a special ability of the monk that the archetype is giving up.

[Krodjin]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Pupsocket wrote:

Drakkiel wrote:

And you do t get all the extras like a normal monk does

I disagree. Stunning Fist, for example, gives you more uses if you have Monk levels. Not "if you received this feat as a bonus feat from the Monk class", but simply if you have Monk levels. Do you have any support for your position?

You would get the extra uses of stun because that is in the feat description. You would not be able to inflict the different conditions (nauseated, staggered, ect.) as that is a special ability of the monk that the archetype is giving up.

^This. If you take the feat, you get the 'special' from the feat. Because you lose the class feature, you wouldn't gain those benefits, which appear in the Monk class entry.

[isdestroyer]

Thanks everyone. It makes more sense now.

[Drakkiel]

Pupsocket wrote:

Drakkiel wrote:

And you do t get all the extras like a normal monk does

I disagree. Stunning Fist, for example, gives you more uses if you have Monk levels. Not "if you received this feat as a bonus feat from the Monk class", but simply if you have Monk levels. Do you have any support for your position?

By extras I meant...

Spoiler:

Quote:

At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect.

At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued.

At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute.

At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds.

At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target.

At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds.

The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.

Apologies if it was confusing

[Pupsocket]

Then we all agree. Also, most of those options to replace stunning are shit.

[Krodjin]

Pupsocket wrote:

Then we all agree. Also, most of those options to replace stunning are s+%$.

Unless your GM allows them to stack (which was either an error or house rule on his part)... Last session I was mobbed by a couple of monks and their 'Fatiguing Fists' led me to being exhausted - which really sucked.

We won the encounter so no harm, no foul!

[Drakkiel]

Pupsocket wrote:

Then we all agree. Also, most of those options to replace stunning are s$%@.

Agreed...I've seen very few full monks ever played and even less that even remembered the extras enough to even use them

In PF I find the monk class is a wonderful 2 level dip for almost any melee/non magic used

You trade one point of BAB for 4 feats...2 chosen by you...the other 2 can be semi chosen using archetypes...and you gains +3 to all saves

Personal favorite is monk of the sacred mountain...nets you Toughness and a +1 NAT armor