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In the spirit of the thread topic (what could fix the monk), I've never noticed any weakness in the monk in my games, but I'm wondering if some of my house rules might have something to do with that.
The rolling for stats (I use a method that is designed to get high results) has been covered, but another rule I use is that full attacking is a standard action, thus allowing move and all attacks at the same time. Furthermore, I allow complete magic item slot choice, so a bracers, cloak, boots, headband, tunic, or whatever of mighty fists would be allowed at no extra cost, or a monk could choose to have enchanted tattoos that would bestow weapon effects at double the cost of a weapon (for being slotless). Last but not least, I allow Dex instead of Str to damage on finesse weapons with a single feat.
I think, in any non PFS game, that monk weakness or underpoweredness can vary greatly from table to table.
The problem here is that monks lack consistency, they are useful situationally but those situations can't be relied upon. And yes, your house-rules make the dex-based monk particularly effective, as well as being able to move and attack.
I don't know that I would call getting permanency any form of cheesing the system. It was intentionally made a lot easier to get cast in Pathfinder. Furthermore, you will find that the majority of GMs do not go out of their way to dispel magic you acquired via permanency. It's generally considered bad form, though I personally have no problems with that. Then again, my days as a GM prior to Pathfinder involved sundering the party's equipment -- not just their armor, but even things like belts and gauntlets. The players were perfectly fine with difficulty being turned up to 11, but that's another story in its entirety. My point is that monks are not gimped. It is fully possible to make your monk into a positively terrifying combatant; it is also quite easy.
Yes, they are gimped. I wrote a huge dissertation on it above. They are gimped, and all you are saying is that if the DM is nice and doesn't bother debuffing the party, and the other players pull part of the monk's weight by buffing him, they are OK. And great if that works for you, but having played a monk in a non-buffing party with a DM making life challenging, and being unable to cherry pick magic items, it was soon clear that the monk was under par by 9th level - when no-one else was.
You may be able to optimize a monk under perfect conditions to be good, but that's just the point: you shouldn't need perfect conditions, or a PhD in system mastery, to make a class workable. I'd like to see the stat-block for this amazing monk you are playing, though. I'm always open to the idea I may have missed something obvious.
On a related note... as far as I know, there are no official monk archetypes that may grant, maybe, a limited divine spell list... maybe there is a 3rd party or a home-brew one? Or may I take permission to cook one up?
Ashiel's psychic monk is here. And yes, that would 'fix' the monk with the right spell-list.
My only issue with the core monk is that it has an unclear focus. It is described essentially as an ascetic warrior with fists of adamantine, and people get distracted by the unarmed strike dice and flurry and go "ooh, martial artist." Then you look at all the other abilities and realize the class is otherwise, more of a defense-based, mobile support character who can handle melee just well enough to contribute to combat.
People who feel the monk is underpowered evaluate it solely from its ability to dish out damage in combat. And the fact is, if you want to dish out damage in combat as your sole character focus, you probably shouldn't play a core monk.
Now that there will be the brawler, hopefully people who just want to play someone who punches things to death have a full BAB, very combat focused option and folks who want to play the more broadly built mystical d8 character will remain happy with the monk.
In the end, it is a viable class, as long as you play it according to its actual strengths rather than what you want its strengths to be.
Not to mention, the monk has some excellent archetypes, many of which "fix" the monk for those seeking out a certain build concept they could not manage with the core class.
Right. QFT. Yes, there were some minor issues with the Monk that have been fixed by the Devs.
And yes, MAD is a issue, no doubt.
But the main issue is that the Monk is not supposed to be a DPR monster. It gives up a certain amount of DPR to get great defences, fantastic mobility and some fun class features.
DPR comparos are thus meaningless.
And if you want a DPR "kung-fu guy" the brawler class will hopefully make you happy.
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Yes, they are gimped. I wrote a huge dissertation on it above. They are gimped, and all you are saying is that if the DM is nice and doesn't bother debuffing the party, and the other players pull part of the monk's weight by buffing him, they are OK. And great if that works for you, but having played a monk in a non-buffing party with a DM making life challenging, and being unable to cherry pick magic items, it was soon clear that the monk was under par by 9th level - when no-one else was.
You may be able to optimize a monk under perfect conditions to be good, but that's just the point: you shouldn't need perfect conditions, or a PhD in system mastery, to make a class workable. I'd like to see the stat-block for this amazing monk you are playing, though. I'm always open to the idea I may have missed something obvious.
Well, here's what I know. A.) I've never had a monk with greater magic fang cast on it; I always had to get the amulet. B.) I've never had a merciful GM, they've nearly always been of the mindset that the party must be eliminated at all costs. Despite these facts, I have never once observed any of my monks lagging behind anyone else in the party. There are plenty of others who have made similar observations, I am sure. The class as a whole is extremely easy to optimize. The items you need are very straightforward and obvious. Similarly, the correct stat array in a point buy is also painfully obvious. I mean... I wouldn't suggest making a monk in 15 or 10 point buy, but 20 point buy (which is also the most commonly used) makes things go very nicely. I will, however, concede that they do tend to be MAD. They'd become significantly more powerful if they weren't MAD, however. I believe it acts as a very necessary balancing act in the class.
The final thing that needs to be kept in mind, and I believe you might have overlooked this, is that none of the classes were intended to be a one man show. Some of them get powerful enough to do that, but it was not the intention at all. So what if a monk can benefit from buffs? That bard will be singing either way; everyone is getting buffs. At least you won't have to have bull's strength or whatnot cast on you; choosing the correct belt will take care of that. Anywho, I can grab the stat block for it once I'm back at the house. I do not have access to it at this time. It'll be fairly late tonight when I am. Don't expect to see it doing something ridiculous like 2d6+18 with its fists at level 8, however. The character does anywhere from 2d6+9 to 2d6+12 depending on what buffs are flying around. Makes up for it by having good chance of landing multiple shots.
Its class features are often weird, situational, and subpar. Perfect example, just compare Wholeness of Body to Lay On Hands.
DPR comparisons are far from useless, because if you don't have spells, DPR is all you bring.
Well, they are good at maneuvers. At higher levels that means mostly classed NPC opponents and some Large and smaller outsiders, for the most part. So maneuvers aren't always that useful, but situationally can be quite powerful. And there's also Stunning Fist and its relatives, which isn't that great against big beatstick monsters but is actually pretty good against anything else that's alive. Core monks do not like giants or dragons... that's kind of a bad weakness to have. But if you're fighting advanced ghasts or something, they're great.
Against anything on which Stunning Fist or Grapple is likely to work, it's probably more efficient to just burn down its hit points. I will concede that maneuvers give you something to do when you can't Flurry, though it's a shame about that 3/4 BAB.
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Against anything on which Stunning Fist or Grapple is likely to work, it's probably more efficient to just burn down its hit points. I will concede that maneuvers give you something to do when you can't Flurry, though it's a shame about that 3/4 BAB.
To be fair tetori monks can make sport of grappling things they probably shouldn't even be able to grapple, let alone pin and curbstomp. Eventually they even get to where they can grapple ghosts. As for the BAB, monks use their full BAB for determining CMB, so they do have a pretty good chance of pulling things off.
And here is the idea of an archetype i was talking about: Clostered monk.
Now, in a day or maybe two, will try an make an arcane variant... though it might be tough to name...
And here is the idea of an archetype i was talking about: Clostered monk.
Now, in a day or maybe two, will try an make an arcane variant... though it might be tough to name...
try this
I believe the monk (with exception to a few archetypes) need to be able to bring something to the party, and be less of a the-man-you-can't-hit guy.
Indeed, the monk brings close to nothing to the group : low skill points (3 to 5 per level, the same as the fighter, thanks to MAD), low to-hit (medium BAB or as-good-as-full-BAB-but-full-BAB with no way to improve to-hit as class feature), low damage (good dice, but low to very low modifier, low critical threat and multiplier), no group boosting abilities, few enemy debuffing abilities (stunning fist, and worse than melee classes for maneuvers, with exception for few archetypes).
So, in a group dynamic, ANY class brings more than a monk. Yes, even a fighter brings more to a group than the monk, by being able to be better at maneuvers (except 2 archetypes), better at to-hit, better at damage, better as swift hitter (with actually the ability to hit hard when he moves, even if not as hard as a full attack).
At the contrary, the monk is nearly unkillable : great saves, SR, some immunities, Dimension door, great speed, high to very high AC (at high levels, because at low levels it sucks), and easy access to a feat that allows for negating one attack per round with no check.
With all this combined, you have a wall that can't be easily killed. But combined to the weaknesses of the monk, you also have something that monsters won't bother try killing. In fact, you have a character that is the best at looking its teammates kill monsters and be killed by them.
I guess that to improve the monk, you have to nerf its defensive abilities, and give him something (or upgrading something he already have) useful to bring to the group.
If nothing else, it would be nice if the Monk were a full-BAB class with 6+Int skill points, akin to a Ranger. It would really simplify the whole flurry thing.
-Matt
That probably tops my list of things I'd like to see in Pathfinder 2e along with bumping up weak saves to 1/2 HD rather than 1/3. I'd also add in making the vital strike feat (and it's improved/greater versions) automatic additions once BAB allows iterative attacks and make it automatically a part of a standard action's attack damage. Yes, I still want there to be a trade-off between mobility and max damage for martial characters, in case you were asking...
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The problem with comparing the Monk to other classes is that if he's not supposed to be as good as the full BAB/HD combatants, then the only others he compares to are folks with spells (auto-magically a good out of combat role) or the rogue (the *other* pitied class).
As for tweaks to "fix" the monk while keeping the theme, I'll first break down the theme:
- Mixed style combatant. Much like a Magus using magic+physical, or an Inquisitor using bane+physical; the monk should have some kind of "effect" to his combat style. Unarmed strikes/Monk weapons is just a weapon style, not a "combat style". Neither is "lots of attacks".
- Movement. Between fast movement, no armor speed reduction, acrobatics, safe fall, dimension door, etherealness... there's a lot of movement options in this class.
- Resiliency. Despite losing out on easy armor options, the class gets a lot of options to stay alive. High saves, immunities, spell resistance, etc.
That's how I see the Monk theme: A warrior that's hard to pin down, hard to take down, and brings a mix of physical combat with something unique to the fight.
I really don't think it would take a lot of changes to make the monk fit better to these themes. Here's what I'd do:
Handwraps: Enhances unarmed strikes with weapon enhancements. Cost has a base of 500gp (specially treated, high quality strips of cloth with runes/writing in special inks) + regular weapon enhancement costs (+1 to +10). Applies to unarmed strikes only. Hand item slot. Full round action to put on or take off. Immune to disarm/steal, but can still be sundered like a weapon. Creator must have Improved Unarmed Strike (or equivalent).
Monk Weapons: 4th level+: Monk weapons can deal unarmed strike damage 1 step down.
Combat Maneuvers: Deals unarmed strike damage on a successful combat maneuver. Add Improved Drag and Reposition feats with Grapple, Bull Rush, Disarm, Tripe and Feint monks feats. Place all "Improved" feats at 2nd level list, and add all "Greater" combat maneuver feats 6th level list. Don't need to ever meet the prerequisites of the listed combat maneuver feats (even when not chosen as monk feats), except Greater feats need the Improved version first.
Ki Pool addition: Have 5 ki points, you are treated as one size larger for purposes of combat maneuvers (on what you can affect, size bonus, etc). Spend a ki point grants +4 bonus to combat maneuvers and CMD for 1 round (kinda like having +8 Strength bonus for being larger sized).
Acrobatic Assault: 10th level+: When moving, make an attack per square of movement, up to the number of attacks you can make in a round (including flurry). You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when leaving a threatened space of a creature you've attacked in this way.
Some further ideas to better define the Monk.
These aren't as "required" or "fixes" so much as things I think would make the Monk class a little more fun. (Don't need to add all of them, I'm just tossing out ideas here).
Loaded Handwraps: Add cold iron or silver/mithral or adamantine metals to your handwraps to gain the DR benefits. Treat as a light weapon for costs. Treated as a Monk Weapon, so 1 step down in damage (1d4 normally).
Adamantine Ki Strike: Make it so you bypass hardness with your unarmed strikes just like they were adamantine. 16th level is okay by me for busting through cinder blocks bare handed.
Tweaked Unarmed Strike Damage: Starting at 4th, you can reduce your unarmed strike damage by 1 step to gain either increased crit range (19-20), or crit multiplier (x3). Starting at 8th level, you can reduce damage by 2 steps to double that increase (18-20 or x4).
Alternative: Make these tweaks +fixed gp options for the handwraps, further emphasizing the "different techniques" brought out by the wraps.
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Here is an idea I had a while ago that helps monks hit and get in his FOB.
This is a statement I keep hearing over and over that monk is just too weak and has limited options and such.
Without breaking the class's idea, what would you suggest to make the monk viable on par with the other classes? What abilities would you buff? What abilities with you nerf?
Change everything that applies (unarmed combat, flurry etc) to work like the brawler.
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Right. QFT. Yes, there were some minor issues with the Monk that have been fixed by the Devs.
And yes, MAD is a issue, no doubt.
But the main issue is that the Monk is not supposed to be a DPR monster. It gives up a certain amount of DPR to get great defences, fantastic mobility and some fun class features.
DPR comparos are thus meaningless.
Then what is the monk meant to do? Pose and look good while his friends are brutally slaughtered?
The monk is not a caster, he has no spells. The monk is not a skills monkey, he has insufficient skills. That leaves combat, and the acid test of combat is DPR, like it or not. The name of the game is be hit and hit back.
Like many people who have told those of us that want to fix the monk that we have it all wrong, you have not actually stated what getting it right consists of, while still having a character that can contribute to the party's success.
And if you want a DPR "kung-fu guy" the brawler class will hopefully make you happy.
Great advice, to not take the class based upon the traditional shoalin priest of yore, but be another class in order to be an effective "kung fu guy" - that just sums it up as to whether or not the monk sucks, that you have to not be a monk to be good at what the monk is supposed to be.
Well, here's what I know. A.) I've never had a monk with greater magic fang cast on it; I always had to get the amulet. B.) I've never had a merciful GM, they've nearly always been of the mindset that the party must be eliminated at all costs. Despite these facts, I have never once observed any of my monks lagging behind anyone else in the party. There are plenty of others who have made similar observations, I am sure. The class as a whole is extremely easy to optimize. The items you need are very straightforward and obvious. Similarly, the correct stat array in a point buy is also painfully obvious. I mean... I wouldn't suggest making a monk in 15 or 10 point buy, but 20 point buy (which is also the most commonly used) makes things go very nicely. I will, however, concede that they do tend to be MAD. They'd become significantly more powerful if they weren't MAD, however. I believe it acts as a very necessary balancing act in the class.
You do realise that my own experience in playing monks is completely the opposite of this? Plus that of many others, too. The problem here is that experience is situational - I don't know your DM, or your group, and I do not know anything about them. In the same way, you do not know mine. So really, all we are doing is trading anecdotes...
...except that I CAN show mechanically where the monk is weak, and have done so. I can post up stat blocks of characters to show that the monk can be easily beaten at what he does by other classes. I have participated in threads where the objective of showing the monk brings less to the party than other classes has been demonstrated very clearly.
The final thing that needs to be kept in mind, and I believe you might have overlooked this, is that none of the classes were intended to be a one man show. Some of them get powerful enough to do that, but it was not the intention at all. So what if a monk can benefit from buffs? That bard will be singing either way; everyone is getting buffs. At least you won't have to have bull's strength or whatnot cast on you; choosing the correct belt will take care of that. Anywho, I can grab the stat block for it once I'm back at the house. I do not have access to it at this time. It'll be fairly late tonight when I am. Don't expect to see it doing something ridiculous like 2d6+18 with its fists at level 8, however. The character does anywhere from 2d6+9 to 2d6+12 depending on what buffs are flying around. Makes up for it by having good chance of landing multiple shots.
That's just the point, you are in a PARTY. The monk has to bring something to the team, not be a dead weight upon them - and even then, there may be occasions when you are solo. Almost any buff you use on the monk applies to other characters - only they don't seem to need it as badly. And you cannot depend on party composition being set in stone either - there may be no buffers in the party, or it may be all buffers. This is fine for the other 3/4 BAB classes (save the rogue) because they can self-buff, they do not need to rely on anyone else for the buffs they need.
I'd love to see that stat-block, and how you get it - if you can show us both unbuffed and buffed, it'd help too.
Well, they are good at maneuvers. At higher levels that means mostly classed NPC opponents and some Large and smaller outsiders, for the most part. So maneuvers aren't always that useful, but situationally can be quite powerful.
Situationally, and the monk isn't actually very good at maneuvers. He is less bad at maneuvers, that's all. Everything I said about the monks attack chances applies to the maneuvers (MAD, lack of enhancement, lack of special features or self-buffs) save the problem of 3/4 BAB (but penalties for FoB still apply). In fact MADness counts more against the monk, because to get the Greater maneuvers, you usually need 13 Intelligence, which places an even greater demand on the monk's overstretched points.
So a monk using a maneuver will struggle compared to a fighter doing a maneuver, because the fighter has a better choice of weapons to use, can add his weapon training bonus (and other feat bonuses) to CMB, and is more likely to have access to the Greater feats.
And that's all for doing something that is situationally useful, and sometimes useless.
And there's also Stunning Fist and its relatives, which isn't that great against big beatstick monsters but is actually pretty good against anything else that's alive. Core monks do not like giants or dragons... that's kind of a bad weakness to have. But if you're fighting advanced ghasts or something, they're great.
Stunning fist suffers for three reasons:
1) You have to hit. Monks have problems hitting compared to other combat classes.2) You have to do damage. Monks have more problems bypassing DR than other combat classes.
3) The target must fail a save. You have a saving throw based on a secondary stat, not a primary one.
And yes, monks can be good fighting the enemies...that everyone is good at fighting. This has been pointed out. It's being good at fighting the enemies that not everyone is good at fighting that counts.
But the main issue is that the Monk is not supposed to be a DPR monster. It gives up a certain amount of DPR to get great defences, fantastic mobility and some fun class features.
DPR comparos are thus meaningless.
And if you want a DPR "kung-fu guy" the brawler class will hopefully make you happy.
The monk gives up A LOT of DPR to get great PERSONAL defences, a mobility that renders him useless when he moves (lower BAB, only one attack, ... if he moves 10 ft or more, even worse than a fighter), and useless class features.
In team play, changing high DPR for nothing (the monk's class features are personal only, and most are not even average) is a bad feature for a class.
Sure, some archetypes can improve the monk : most of those archetypes change the useless features of the core monk to spell like abilities (Qi Gong), or one trick ponies (Tetori).
"Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon."
This doesnt replace any abilities people will miss and takes a decent step to fix the monk. you an pick monk weapons / unarmed strike, I find the sohei to be better at barehand combat than a normal monk despite having a base 1d6 damage for unarmed attacks.
"Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon."
This doesnt replace any abilities people will miss and takes a decent step to fix the monk. you an pick monk weapons / unarmed strike, I find the sohei to be better at barehand combat than a normal monk despite having a base 1d6 damage for unarmed attacks.
Well... if I recall, the sohei is a monk with weapons and with an armor.
It's far from what people think when they see (or hear) "a monk".
Compared to other classes (notably the bard), the monk is among the most customizable classes in the game with the proper material at your disposal.What do you mean? There are loads of different ways to make a Bard, from Magician to Dervish Dancer to magical archery support.
Build-wise, almost all bard archetypes trade the same things. It is difficult to combine bard archetypes to make a truly unique bard. Monks, on the other hand, have many overlapping archetypes, including the most flexible archetype in the game, the qinggong monk.
Rogues also suffer from this problem, but not to the same extent as bards.
"Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon."
This doesnt replace any abilities people will miss and takes a decent step to fix the monk. you an pick monk weapons / unarmed strike, I find the sohei to be better at barehand combat than a normal monk despite having a base 1d6 damage for unarmed attacks.
Kind of proves the point that it's static bonuses to hit and damage that makes the difference, really. It also demonstrates how appalling the core monk's abilities are that you can replace five of them with cut down weapon training and it's more than worthwhile. The only problem is that by trading away the improvements to the unarmed strike, you are now offering the monk a host of better weapons than fighting unarmed when that's what most monk players would really prefer to be doing. The sohei is one of the few archetypes that work, but again he's trading being an archetypal monk away to do it. The core monk is what needs a fix.
Compared to other classes (notably the bard), the monk is among the most customizable classes in the game with the proper material at your disposal.What do you mean? There are loads of different ways to make a Bard, from Magician to Dervish Dancer to magical archery support.Build-wise, almost all bard archetypes trade the same things. It is difficult to combine bard archetypes to make a truly unique bard. Monks, on the other hand, have many overlapping archetypes, including the most flexible archetype in the game, the qinggong monk.
Rogues also suffer from this problem, but not to the same extent as bards.
The qingong is not as flexible as a 2/3 caster, though and for this reason I would say the core bard's spell selection make him a much more customizable class option than the qingong monk's abilities. For all the monk's "customization" it still seems to be very hard (a few archetypes aside) to make an effective one...
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If a monk is under powered here is how I would "fix" them
No minus two penalty on flurry.
Add wis to damage in addition to strength
Give them a built in Vital strike mechanic that works like flurry
Take the monk bonus and wis bonus to CMD and add it to CMB too.
Why?
Flurry should just be TWF but better
A boost in damage would mitigate the need for dragon style and arcane strike
Move and attack should be a thing monks can do well. This wouldn't fix charging though
An additional 10-11 CMB should make it more doable at higher levels.
If a monk is under powered here is how I would "fix" them
No minus two penalty on flurry.
Add wis to damage in addition to strength
Give them a built in Vital strike mechanic that works like flurry
Take the monk bonus and wis bonus to CMD and add it to CMB too.Why?
Flurry should just be TWF but better
A boost in damage would mitigate the need for dragon style and arcane strike
Move and attack should be a thing monks can do well. This wouldn't fix charging though
An additional 10-11 CMB should make it more doable at higher levels.
All those ideas are in complete opposition to what Pathfinder rules are : you make exceptions-type of rules (such as deleting penalties and adding WIS everywhere) instead of improving the class with what already exist.
WIS to damage is bad. A scaling bonus, such as a scaling Enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks would be much nicer for example (while being simpler and more intuitive that what the monk already gets). Makes it an ability usable for 1 ki point, with a duration of 1 minute per monk level.
No TWF penalty : he doesn't lack a +2. He lacks a +5 to be able to reliably hit something (and even more when not full attacking). Start by making him full BAB. The scaling enhancement bonus will also boost his to-hit as he gains levels.
And a monk already adds his WIS modifier to CMD.
I would compensate by :
=> Making Fortitude a bad save
=> Making the Crane wing an attack check in opposition against his opponent attack check (instead of a no-check ability).
=> Making his monk bonus to AC and CMD (the WIS + level/4) typed as armor bonus (for AC only), while reducing the CMD bonus to half that (but untyped).
All those ideas are in complete opposition to what Pathfinder rules are : you make exceptions-type of rules (such as deleting penalties and adding WIS everywhere) instead of improving the class with what already exist.
WIS to damage is bad. A scaling bonus, such as a scaling Enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks would be much nicer for example (while being simpler and more intuitive that what the monk already gets). Makes it an ability usable for 1 ki point, with a duration of 1 minute per monk level.
No TWF penalty : he doesn't lack a +2. He lacks a +5 to be able to reliably hit something (and even more when not full attacking). Start by making him full BAB. The scaling enhancement bonus will also boost his to-hit as he gains levels.
And a monk already adds his WIS modifier to CMD.
I would compensate by :
=> Making Fortitude a bad save
=> Making the Crane wing an attack check in opposition against his opponent attack check (instead of a no-check ability).
=> Making his monk bonus to AC and CMD (the WIS + level/4) typed as armor bonus (for AC only), while reducing the CMD bonus to half that (but untyped).
Monks don't add wis to CMB though. That was the point.
I also don't find any of your critiques valid. I also don't agree with your opening statement.
EDIT: Monk armor bonus is already added to CMD.
If a monk is under powered here is how I would "fix" them
No minus two penalty on flurry.
Add wis to damage in addition to strength
Give them a built in Vital strike mechanic that works like flurry
Take the monk bonus and wis bonus to CMD and add it to CMB too.Why?
Flurry should just be TWF but better
I can get behind this.
A boost in damage would mitigate the need for dragon style and arcane strike
Actually, a boost to hit would boost damage and address the big problem monks have - actually hitting targets. Using wis-to-hit instead of strength or dex would cut MAD too.
Move and attack should be a thing monks can do well. This wouldn't fix charging though
I agree, but I don't see how this "Vital Strike" fix will do anything - a miss does no damage, and when moving monks have 3/4 BAB.
An additional 10-11 CMB should make it more doable at higher levels.
Access to the Greater feats and a bonus to hit such as other combat classes get would put the monk on a par with them at something monks are supposed to be good at.
I dislike flat bonuses to-hit.
Look at the fighter. Flat bonuses to-hit helped her out immensely, but people still lament fighter and martial inferiority.
I dislike flat bonuses to-hit.
Maybe so, but it's pretty much the standard in Pathfinder.
Look at the fighter. Flat bonuses to-hit helped her out immensely, but people still lament fighter and martial inferiority.
The fighter is lamented for poor Will saves and lack of skills, not for their inability to hit. He got bonuses to hit AND damage, so the same could be said of boosting damage output - and be as true. The flat bonus from Weapon Training means the fighter hits more consistently than anyone, and that's the kind of thing the monk needs to do.
wait...people lament about fighters combat ability!?! It's the only thing they do well!
wait...people lament about fighters combat ability!?! It's the only thing they do well!
Exactly...
Although the will save thing is a bit of a myth
1 |Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Bows), Point-Blank Shot
10|Bravery, Rapid Shot
11|Armor training, Deadly Aim
12|Far Shot
13|Weapon training(Spears), Leadership
14|Bravery, Mounted Combat
15|Armor training, Mounted Archery
16|Ride-By Attack
17|Weapon training(Close), Spirited Charge
18|Bravery, Trample
19|Armor mastery, Improved Iron Will
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
So this Fighter's will save at 20 vs a Balor's DC 27 dominate monster is +18 meaning that the fighter has to a roll a 9 or higher to break. That's a 60% chance. Every time the fighter is sent to attack a party member he receives a new saving throw with an 70% chance to pass. This does not take into account improved iron will or a first level spell.
So just for clarification the chance that this fighter is dominated and attacks a party member is 12%
Assuming:
20th level
A specific trait
Iron Will (safe assumption, but still)
A Balor (not nearly the most dangerous creature you could be facing at 20th, regardless of CR, especially given that they're specced mostly as melee monsters, not casters)
Even then, where's +18?
I see +6 from level, +2 Death-touched, +2 Iron Will, and I'm guessing +5 from a Cloak of Resistance?
That's 15 at best vs mind affecting.
lvl 20 dude. You have a +6 wis item.
lvl 20 dude. You have a +6 wis item.
You listed only 10 Wis.
If you're gonna toss magic items in there, list them.
Even then, it's still quite a lot of assumptions.
At least use a real caster enemy for CR 20.
Like a Maharaja. Just as a quick example (not overwhelmingly more powerful, but a bit more honest).
You have your Dominate Monster, but also a Save or Die (Weird) and a few Save or Sucks (at a lower DC, but still).
Even then, at level 20 a CR 20 is supposed to be really easy, and he STILL has a 60% chance to fail his save vs that Balor (and that can quite easily put him out of the fight if the Balor just says "Sit" instead of ordering him to attack).
Even then, at level 20 a CR 20 is supposed to be really easy, and he STILL has a 60% chance to fail his save vs that Balor (and that can quite easily put him out of the fight if the Balor just says "Sit" instead of ordering him to attack).
It might be against a fighter's nature not to fight :P
But yeah you're right. But that is easily remedied with a first level spell. It's not like the fighter is in endanger of killing the whole party though.
NOTE: By-the-way the build I posted was a 1-20 progression, so I listed the starting stats not level 20 stats.
It might be against a fighter's nature not to fight :P
I tried this when my Barbarian got put in the corner but the GM didn't buy it. =(
But yeah you're right. But that is easily remedied with a first level spell. It's not like the fighter is in endanger of killing the whole party though.
That much is true, yeah. Just pointing out that he's not as "iron clad protected" as you made him out to be.
NOTE: By-the-way the build I posted was a 1-20 progression, so I listed the starting stats not level 20 stats.
Yar. I just like messin' with ya. =p
"Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon."
This doesnt replace any abilities people will miss and takes a decent step to fix the monk. you an pick monk weapons / unarmed strike, I find the sohei to be better at barehand combat than a normal monk despite having a base 1d6 damage for unarmed attacks.
Well... if I recall, the sohei is a monk with weapons and with an armor.
It's far from what people think when they see (or hear) "a monk".
Weapon training opens up the gloves of weapon training as well, adding a +5 bonus to hit, damage and bonus on maneuvers, they will be 0.5 damage behind on other monks on average but get a +5 to hit at level 18.
True, as a fix then :
* give the monk weapon training as a sohei but only for monk weapons and unarmed strikes, but strip increased unarmed damage. (+1 at 6, 12, 18)
* Add some fighter feats to the bonus feats they can take, most notably weapon focus (1), specialization (6), greater weapon focus, critical focus (8), greater specialization (14).
* I'd also propose to strip arcane strike of it's spellcasting requirement, the fact you an use SLA with it only empowers weird metagame race choices to just deal some extra damage. You could call it "ki strike" instead, replacing the monk ability of the same name coincidentally and working with any weapon. It actually improves a bit for the monk allowing it to count as silver, cold iron, adamantine and lawful later on.
* wholeness of body also can remove diease as the spell now in addition to healing hp damage. (to make up for the loss of purity of body)
* allow monk bonus feats to be taken with normal feats if you had the option to select them as bonus feats earlier.
* strip purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon. You can add quivering palm (14) as a monk bonus feat if you want.
EDIT: I am not concerned with the inability to select archetypes, I am sure those can be fitted in easily in some other way.
Shotgunning a few ideas off the top of my head.
No Bad Save -- I know this is done for balance, but concept-wise, there is no reason for a Monk to have any save be substantially lower than the others.
FoB able to be done as a standard action -- This has been mentioned before, and I agree with it. If FoB is one of the Monk's signatures, and mobility is one of their trademarks (or is supposed to be), then the two should not be mutually exclusive.
Alternatives to Flurry of Blows -- This can be done in addition to or as an alternative to the above. Give the Monk other things they can do to hit people without always having to burn up a feat. Stuff like Punishing Kick and Ki Arrow are good examples of things that can be made class features.
Diamond soul would be fine if you could permanently turn off and on SR.
Monks are still awesome fun to play.
Every time a class "normal" monster gets SR, they should just get a resistance bonus to saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities instead. SR should be for outsiders, aberrations, and weird underdark thingies.
wait...people lament about fighters combat ability!?! It's the only thing they do well!
Pretty much they whine about all the classes, but the martial class most of all. Currently Monk*, rogue & fighter are the classes certain people are whinging on about. Over & over.
We play a 13th lvl game with a rogue and a fighter, and the Fighter is BY FAR the most dangerous PC in a party of six, far more than my maxed out Sorc.
Mind you, I certainly would like to see the Fighter get 4 skp/lvl, but the class hardly needs a combat boost.
* but only the base monk or the base rogue, because for some reason their DM won't let them play any monk or rogue archetypes, even tho they play with every other option with every other book. That DM does let them play with Ranger, Bard and other class archetypes, as evinced by the fact they always say the rogue can be beat out by a archeologist bard or trap ranger. But not rogue or monk for some reason. So, they dont even play the class- but they are SURE those classes are all super underpowered.
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* but only the base monk or the base rogue, because for some reason their DM won't let them play any monk or rogue archetypes, even tho they play with every other option with every other book. That DM does let them play with Ranger, Bard and other class archetypes, as evinced by the fact they always say the rogue can be beat out by a archeologist bard or trap ranger. But not rogue or monk for some reason.
There is no combination of Rogue archetypes that will make them match a Trapper Ranger or Archaeologist Bard in pretty much anything you could care to think of.
Archetypes fix some of the issues with the Monk, yes, but not to the extent you seem to be implying. Sohei and Zen Archer are probably the best archetypes, and they're pretty darn good, but the main issue there is that neither really evoke what you generally think of when you think "Monk". It's a big dilemma when making a Monk you generally have to choose at charop whether you want Monk flavor, or you want to be worth a damn.
Master of Many Styles is closest to what I would say is the archetypical Monk/Martial Artist many think of (constantly shifting from one stance to another, blocking and counterattacking opponent's blows, and so on) but it's not really able to keep up mechanically except as a dip.
They're an AMAZING dip class, especially with the Brawler Fighter (a Brawler 9/MoMS 2 is the best Monk I've ever made, both mechanically and flavor-wise), but that's pretty sad if yous it and think about it for a minute. The class is worth more as a gateway into classes that do its job better than it is a whole class.
So, they dont even play the class- but they are SURE those classes are all super underpowered.
I say the class is underpowered BECAUSE I play it. Monks make up at least a third of all the characters I've ever made. In every case I've had to try my damnedest and twink them to the max to get them to perform on par with even a moderately optimized Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, etc. in combat. And Monks don't bring much else to the table besides combat (no spells, no support abilities, no skills, and so on), so that's a problem.
Don't try to pull this shit. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.
Aside from lower DPR monks have everything lacking in other pure martial classes.
Cool spell-like abilities: Feather-fall, some self healing, teleport, Save or lose, Save or die, tongues, etherealness
Out-of-combat abilities: High jump, 4+int skill points, good skill list, tongues
Can counter most spells: Immunities, high saves, SR, Evasion