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Is this something allowable in PFS even if its a lower end choice?
Curious.. Maybe I might try for that if I decide to do PFS sometime soon.
Course while legal.. I wonder if it works. Cause your mind blew up.
I don't see why it wouldn't be legal.
The problem comes from the lack of 'hair' to actually use the white-haired witches power. I don't wanna go making a character for the PFS that isn't going to be allowed to work, even if he's legal.
The problem comes from the lack of 'hair' to actually use the white-haired witches power. I don't wanna go making a character for the PFS that isn't going to be allowed to work, even if he's legal.
Nothing says its illegal, something says playing a white haired witch and a tengu is. Besides, a guy is strangling someone to death with hair they grew supernaturally. There's a guy punching people with his nosehair out there somewhere. Magic does weird things, wizard did it, its supernatural, etc.
Also why play a tengu white haired witch? Is this just a hypothetical or an actual character?
More of at the moment Hypthetical. Honestly, I don't even know what a WHW is good for.
It kinda also falls in-line with Prehensile Hair hex and strangling hair hex.
Honestly, I don't even know what a WHW is good for.
That's a question for the ages. Its a character with 1/2 BAB who's expected to use a martial ability that fails a good amount of the time as a full BAB martial, and they trade out their classes main feature to do it! Not a lot of merit to the archetype unfortunately.
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Honestly, I don't even know what a WHW is good for.That's a question for the ages. Its a character with 1/2 BAB who's expected to use a martial ability that fails a good amount of the time as a full BAB martial, and they trade out their classes main feature to do it! Not a lot of merit to the archetype unfortunately.
Not if you're pure caster (and poor cousin to other casters at that) and definitely not to the point where you'd be exchanging major hexes for rogue talents (really?).
But you could make a hybrid, taking 4 levels WHW & going with any class that aids your grappling or Eldritch Knight (WHW 6/Ftr 1) for the BAB since you've given up hexes already, this isn't too much of a hit.Note I'm not saying it's mechanically strong, but it can make a strong flavor at least functional.
Cheers.
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You take a couple of levels on top of whatever natural attack build you've used for your Tengu. You should also have claws. This gives you 4 primary natural attacks, one of which has grab, so you can grapple (and not be grappled yourself). You can take a few maneuver master monk levels too so you can strap a combat maneuver onto those 4 natural attacks for even more fun.
Of course, the only problem with this is that as soon as you hit damage reduction, you're screwed. :-)
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My interpretation:
You can't use the witch's prehensile hair hex without hair.
Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch's elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch's head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.
Everything in this indicates that you are manipulating your own hair.
You don't spontaneously grow hair to be able to use the hex just because you are using the hex.
Tengu don't have hair. Thus this hex, while they could take it, would not be useful for them.
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To clarify, he's talking about the Archetype and not the Hex, though all the needing of hair for use are included.
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.
Well, Archetype, Hex and the Spell that all involve your hair. Which all require you to have hair. Its a rather strange event for this to happen I think.
Well, Archetype, Hex and the Spell that all involve your hair. Which all require you to have hair. Its a rather strange event for this to happen I think.
Which ones said they require you to have hair in the description?
Something to think about is how off it is that a race shows up that doesn't grow hair. What are the chances?
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So the White Haired Witch's greatest enemy is... Nair?
-k
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If you don't have hair, I don't see how you could make use of any ability or spell that uses or transforms ones own hair.
In a home game, you could make exceptions. Especially since feathers, scales and hair all are grown from the same type of cells.
But in PFS, we don't have the luxury of making exceptions.
If you don't have hair, then you can't make use of these abilities.
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Why Can't he just use the feathers in place of the hair? "Hair" Is just a covering on one's head that is grown by the body. An argument could be made for the use of feathers in place of hair.
In a home game, yes. I agree. You can make whatever exceptions in a home game you want.
But these abilities assume you have hair.
If you don't have hair, in PFS, you can't use the abilities.
You might find some GM out there that will let you.
But this is one of those issues that you should expect major table variation, specifically where I believe most would not allow it.
If you want to create a character who's entire schtick is based on something that I wouldn't even call borderline, but we will use that term--borderline--then expect that you may not get to use your schtick at many tables.
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What makes you think any of these abilities could be used if you don't have hair?
Magic. A wizard did it. Supernatural. Feathers count as hair. The abilities make them supernaturally grow whatever. etc. Lots of options. I'm not sure the intent of the abilities was "everyone except tengu".
Anyways, probably shouldn't go and state things as a fact until they are set in stone. I get your feelings are strong about this, but haven't heard anything from anyone with a say on the matter about it so its probably more of a GM's digression thing atm. Which is for good or bad, imo.
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What makes you think any of these abilities could be used if you don't have hair?Magic. A wizard did it. Supernatural. Feathers count as hair. The abilities make them supernaturally grow whatever. etc. Lots of options. I'm not sure the intent of the abilities was "everyone except tengu".
Anyways, probably shouldn't go and state things as a fact until they are set in stone. I get your feelings are strong about this, but haven't heard anything from anyone with a say on the matter about it so its probably more of a GM's digression thing atm. Which is for good or bad, imo.
I'm sure there was no intent thinking about any particular race with this archetype or the hex.
The default has almost always been the core races (unless specifically discussing other races like in the ARG). The Core races all have hair.
But just like any other rule in this game, especially when discussing PFS, you can't just make up whatever you want.
You can't just say that feathers equal hair because that's what you want.
You can't just say "magic" because that's what you want.
The description of the ability says that "your" hair does XYZ.
Not, "you grow hair so that you can do XYZ."
That is a significant difference that you can't ignore when discussing RAW in PFS. In a home game, make whatever side ruling you want. I'd probably be pre-disposed in a home game to allow a player who really wanted to play a white witch tengu and had a really cool background story, to do just that, with full use of their abilities. The idea of feathers becoming prehensile is kinda cool.
But this is PFS. We don't have the luxury to ignore how abilities are written to accommodate fringe ideas.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm with Andrew on this one. If a non-Tengu somehow got access to the feat Blood Beak, she's need a beak before she could use it. This is the same idea.
If a player were to sit at my table with a White-heaired Witch tengu / nagaji / hairless character, I'd explain that his character schtick wouldn't work, and I'd ask if he wanted to make a free, permanent change to the base witch class. (Maybe not, maybe he wants the rogue talent at 10th level.)
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Looking over this, I would use caution if making this character.
While you have some GMs that won't ask/think twice about the concept, there are other such as myself and Andy that are going to question it and go by a strict word reading of the information.
Be prepared with a 2nd character to play if you are told that the character isn't valid or that you can play it but w/out hair you won't be able to use the special abilities.
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If a player were to sit at my table with a White-heaired Witch tengu / nagaji / hairless character, I'd explain that his character schtick wouldn't work, and I'd ask if he wanted to make a free, permanent change to the base witch class. (Maybe not, maybe he wants the rogue talent at 10th level.)
I don't think you can do that just from being a DM. What if you're wrong and the build is either accepted at another table or later ruled actually legal? Are they now stuck having to retrain back into it?
you can't just make up whatever you want.
and I never suggested doing that.
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I don't think you can do that just from being a DM. What if you're wrong and the build is either accepted at another table or later ruled actually legal? Are they now stuck having to retrain back into it?If a player were to sit at my table with a White-heaired Witch tengu / nagaji / hairless character, I'd explain that his character schtick wouldn't work, and I'd ask if he wanted to make a free, permanent change to the base witch class. (Maybe not, maybe he wants the rogue talent at 10th level.)
You can if the guy wants to play the character at your table.
The other option would be that the player couldn't play that character, and then what? He has the options of using another character (if he has one) or leaving the table.
But yeah, if I oversee a "free" change based on correcting a character that I see as unusable, I would write it on the ITS and the chronicle sheet and expect that the change would be permanent.
But I wouldn't force the change, and I doubt that's what Chris was suggesting.
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RAW (and I hate strict adherence to RAW, but eh its PFS) it works.
I have no idea how you are interpreting RAW saying that feathers = hair or that you could reflavor it that way.
Because the way I see it, strict RAW says that if you don't have hair, you can't use those abilities.
And a wig is not "your" hair. A wig is hair that belonged to someone else.
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Strictly speaking, it doesn't exclude any races so it's not too far-fetched to flavor it as long feather (or feathers) or something. RAW (and I hate strict adherence to RAW, but eh its PFS) it works.
Or heck, put on a wig. Problem solved.
How can you control something that is not party of you? I would not allow a wig .. the description consistently refers to "her hair", my interpretation is that it has to be the witches own hair.
As for the feathers ... I can see it, but probably honestly would have to think about it .. hair is many strands that can weave together, a feather is inherently soft and not solid .. hard to weave feathers together
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Id Like to point out ...that nowhere in the requirements does it say the PC / NPC MUST have Hair ...it is only implied
the Archtype has a requirement of Witch and replaces the Witch class features of
Hex Feature
Major Hex
and Grand Hex
since there is no Requirement of "Must Have Hair" the Statments being issued here are based on RAI not RAW
now before I continue I would like to point out that I agree it Should Not be legal
but since we in PFS follow RAW .. and there is no printed Requirement of "Must have hair" I do not believe we can say "this is not a legal Character"
I understand the arguments of "Uses his hair" and all signs point to the requirement being in place
but the bottom line is this is RAI not RAW
Edit: Further all of the witches hexes Use the Prehensile Hair so the requirement would HAVE to be on the Archtype itself
Well ya kinda did when you went off on a tangent about saying feathers are hair or "magic" or whatever other reason you wanted to use to justify this being allowable.you can't just make up whatever you want.and I never suggested doing that.
Not really. I stated exactly what you asked for. A number of ways it can work. Not how it did work that way or whether it was the only way or that it was the way it worked in PFS.
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Not really. I stated exactly what you asked for. A number of ways it can work. Not how it did work that way or whether it was the only way or that it was the way it worked in PFS.Well ya kinda did when you went off on a tangent about saying feathers are hair or "magic" or whatever other reason you wanted to use to justify this being allowable.you can't just make up whatever you want.and I never suggested doing that.
And those ideas are essentially "making up whatever you want". None of them are ideas that work within the RAW of PFS. So yes, you were making up whatever you wanted.
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I want to just wave this off, because it feels silly, but for once I have to come down on the side of the conservative element: Tengu don't have hair. If we handwave it for tengu because it's not fair--which is really what it comes down to--what about nagaji? What are we handwaving allowance for there? Just a straight up tentacle? It simply doesn't work.
So what do we do with a build like that? I'm not empowered to offer rebuilds, but one does get to rebuild if one accidentally makes an illegal build, right? If you buy a feat you can't have, and someone points it out, you just pick a different feat. You build a master summoner, and nobody notices for two levels because of some combination of whatever, what kind of rebuild are you eligible for? Is there a policy?
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Id Like to point out ...that nowhere in the requirements does it say the PC / NPC MUST have Hair ...it is only implied
"At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon."
If you don't have hair, you can't use it as a weapon.
You can take the archetype, feat, or spell--because there's no restriction that says it has to be useful, which is actually unfortunate in this rare instance--but that doesn't mean you can use hair you don't have as a weapon.
If we handwave it for tengu because it's not fair--which is really what it comes down to--what about nagaji? What are we handwaving allowance for there? Just a straight up tentacle?
Clearly nagaji grow beautiful long platinum blonde locks of their own to use. Haven't you ever seen a dragon with radiant blonde hair? Its absolutely stunning! Or maybe that's the frightening presence...
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"At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon."
If you don't have hair, you can't use it as a weapon.
You can take the archetype, feat, or spell--because there's no restriction that says it has to be useful, which is actually unfortunate in this rare instance--but that doesn't mean you can use hair you don't have as a weapon.
I would further note that I don't even know if this build would be eligible for a rebuild. If a fighter comes in with Quicken Spell as a feat, does he get to replace that, or is he just screwed? There's no "must be able to cast magic" prerequisite that leaps out at me. It's just not something that one would logically do, right? Ditto taking hair-affecting powers when one has no hair.
Clearly nagaji grow beautiful long platinum blonde locks of their own to use. Haven't you ever seen a dragon with radiant blonde hair? Its absolutely stunning! Or maybe that's the frightening presence...
A dragon with hair? Why, that's clearly absurd!
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Id Like to point out ...that nowhere in the requirements does it say the PC / NPC MUST have Hair ...it is only implied"At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon."
If you don't have hair, you can't use it as a weapon.
You can take the archetype, feat, or spell--because there's no restriction that says it has to be useful, which is actually unfortunate in this rare instance--but that doesn't mean you can use hair you don't have as a weapon.
and if you dont have hair you cant use the Hex Class feature ... I understand the arguments ... Im not arguing it .... I agree ... it should not be legal
I am saying there is Nothing by RAW saying they Cant use it -
its implied yes
its RAI yes
but also Nowhere in Tengu does it say they DONT have hair - again .. implied and RAI
Same with Nagaji ... again .. RAI ... not RAW
Clearly nagaji grow beautiful long platinum blonde locks of their own to use. Haven't you ever seen a dragon with radiant blonde hair? Its absolutely stunning! Or maybe that's the frightening presence...A dragon with hair? Why, that's clearly absurd!
I was hoping for something more Don Bluth or Disney cartoon style, but that works too!(I wonder how many Halfling stylist it takes to style that beard.)
Suddenly I wonder what other reptiles in pathfinder grow beards...