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I have dragon style. I get that when charging, running, and withdrawing you can ignore difficult terrain.
Why can't I ignore it if I take a double move action?
Seems to me there isn't much difference between withdrawing from where ever I am to the place I want to be, and just taking a double move to get there.
Is there a mechanical difference between the two?
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I am not looking for a RAW discussion, more of an RAI understanding.
Charge is a double move WITH an attack at the end.
Withdraw is a double move WITH a "dodge" at the beginning.
A run is a double move WITH a double move.
A double move, has no attack at the end, no "dodge" at the beginning, and no other double move.
I don't understand why it would allow you to do a double move, and ignore difficult terrain, but only if you do something else besides your double move.
Do you have to be adjacent to a foe to do a withdraw?
Why couldn't I just say I am going to withdraw from where I start my turn, and end my turn a double move away?
Isn't that the functionally the same thing?
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I can see your point on run/charge, but I don't think you made one on withdraw.
You said withdraw can only be done in melee combat, withdraw does not share the same penalties as run/charge.
So where's the logic in that, again, not looking for RAW here, so try to refrain from telling me RAW.
You can ignore what's underfoot, but only if you are threatened in combat?
The reason is because there is no such thing as a "double move" action; that is a colloquialism referring to taking two separate move actions to move. If all you want to do during your turn is move (not counting swift/immediate/free actions), use the Withdraw action.
You can only withdraw from melee combat
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can't withdraw from combat if you're blinded. You can't take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don't have a listed speed.
Note that despite the name of this action, you don't actually have to leave combat entirely.
Restricted Withdraw: If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed.
While the first sentence does say "Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action" nothing in the entire section states that you must start your turn in a threatened square in order to withdraw.
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The reason is because there is no such thing as a "double move" action; that is a colloquialism referring to taking two separate move actions to move. If all you want to do during your turn is move (not counting swift/immediate/free actions), use the Withdraw action.
...
While the first sentence does say "Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action" nothing in the entire section states that you must start your turn in a threatened square in order to withdraw.
Ah, I can see that.
I "ran" up to a guy last session I played, covered a very large distance ignoring terrain. The last little bit I had difficulty. (stairs and corners) I suggested I could withdraw up to him, and the GM let me.
It just struck me as odd that I had to. The whole double move isn't an official "full round action" totally makes sense.
Thanks!
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My tiefling paladin with Fiendish Sprinter regularly withdraws into combat in order to run quicker, since his movement speed is increased by 10 when withdrawing, running, or charging.
I don't see it as cheese, either - withdraw is simply a poorly-named "double move" action (with a dodge at the start), and my fiendish talons let me move quicker when focusing entirely on movement for a round.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My best guess for why it doesn't include a double move is that a double move isn't a full-round action; it's a series of two move actions. Having it let you ignore difficult terrain during a double move would be saying you can ignore difficult terrain during your move action only if you promise that your next action will also be movement. Since you're never committed to your second action when taking your first, that just doesn't work.
If instead a double move was a type of full-round action, it would probably include it.
As-is, just call it a "withdraw" when you want to double-move. :)
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I will admit that I just glanced and the discussion above. I get your point on the whole charge thing.
That said, I think the answer when you want to ignore difficult terrain with Dragon Style, but there is no opponent to charge, is to charge the tree, house, whatever. You don't even have to make an attack at the end.
Charge must be in a straight line, and gives a -2 penalty to AC. Withdraw travels the same distance, and doesn't.
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My tiefling paladin with Fiendish Sprinter regularly withdraws into combat in order to run quicker, since his movement speed is increased by 10 when withdrawing, running, or charging.
How does he do that? Is it a house rule?
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square.
The emphasis is mine, but it seems pretty clear cut that you can't withdraw into combat.
I suppose one could withdraw from the first combatant to a second combatant as you meet the requirement of leaving melee combat with the first combatant
Your going to have a real hard time identifying what is withdrawing then. If there are two enemies you can get further away from one while closer to another. Withdrawing from ranged combat would also be a full-round action, but based on your reasoning, you could not withdraw from it using the Withdraw action.
I think that the is no requirement other than you can only move and not do anything else - baring feats, spells, etc. etc.
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It wouldn't be the first time melee combat had benefits that ranged combat didn't. Take for example 'Flanking'.
There are ways for ranged combatants to threaten adjacent opponents and make AoO's, but they can never receive the bonus from 'Flanking' as it calls out melee attacks.
In this case 'Withdraw' specifically calls out moving away from melee combat - therefore, according to the rules, you can't withdraw from ranged combat.
So Krodjin, what's your response to Honorable Goblin's post then?
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So Krodjin, what's your response to Honorable Goblin's post then?
My response is:
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full round action.
If you're not threatened you don't need to worry about using the withdraw action. You can simply double move (or run).
If you're character has a special ability that kicks in when you 'charge' or 'withdraw' I would limit that to whenever they charge or withdraw.
If you don't get to ignore difficult terrain with a double move action, too bad.
So you HAVE to be threatened to withdraw? You couldn't withdraw from a tiny creature with a long sword?
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I didn't say that. (And I haven't considered your tiny creature Longsword hypothesis) But let's set aside Dragon Style for a moment and just look at the Withdraw action....
It's a special type of action that protects you from taking an AoO from movement if you use it to leave a threatened square.
Presumably it was written with that in mind... If you received no other benefit (such as ignoring difficult terrain) and you were not threatened, why would you choose to withdraw as opposed spending a move action... Or two move actions... Or the run action (depending on how far you want to go).
So that if there is a threat that you do not recognize, you don't provoke.
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My tiefling paladin with Fiendish Sprinter regularly withdraws into combat in order to run quicker, since his movement speed is increased by 10 when withdrawing, running, or charging.How does he do that? Is it a house rule?
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square.The emphasis is mine, but it seems pretty clear cut that you can't withdraw into combat.
I suppose one could withdraw from the first combatant to a second combatant as you meet the requirement of leaving melee combat with the first combatant
There's nothing that says you must leave a threatened square to perform the "withdraw" action, therefore, you do not have such a restriction imposed upon you.
The phrasing of "from melee combat" is there to help describe what the usual purpose of said action is - its primary function is to avoid AoOs, and is often used as such. If it had a magical "it is impossible to perform this action unless someone large and smelly is adjacent to you who is glaring at you in a hostile manner" restriction against it, it would say so.
Since it does not, you may perform it at any time.
Guys...
The feat only works with full action movement. This is in line with the intent of the feat, when you go fast, you ignore the difficult terrain.
There is no full round action called 'double move'. There is however a full round action that allows double movement regardless... it is called 'withdraw'.
Withdraw can be done anywhere. There is no clause that states you must perform it while threatened.
The only reason this feat doesn't work with a double move, is because by intent it should only work if you spend your round's time running/moving quickly.
A move action allows a standard action on the same turn, performing a move action doesn't always represent hauling your rear through the battlefield quickly. You can only perform a move action at a time.
You cannot 'lock in' the fact that you're performing a second move action after the first move action. So, you must adjudicate the first move action like it would be if it was in isolation. Because after it, you can perform any standard or move action you like...
There is no way to apply the effect of the feat in this way, because of the way actions are designed.
But none of that matters, really, because withdraw action is a valid option. So just withdraw if that is what you wanna do.
It wouldn't be the first time melee combat had benefits that ranged combat didn't. Take for example 'Flanking'.
There are ways for ranged combatants to threaten adjacent opponents and make AoO's, but they can never receive the bonus from 'Flanking' as it calls out melee attacks.
In this case 'Withdraw' specifically calls out moving away from melee combat - therefore, according to the rules, you can't withdraw from ranged combat.
This is the last line of withdraw. Why? Because they knew people would get confused by the name and think you had to flee to use it. Same thing with Expeditious Retreat.
They're just names, people, they're just names.
The Dragon Style feat only functions when you are moving really fast.
Double move is not moving fast. It's essentially walking.
A charge is faster than a double move because you need to get to your target quickly enough to have enough time to make an attack before your round (generally about 6 seconds) is up.
The Dragon Style feat only functions when you are moving really fast.
Double move is not moving fast. It's essentially walking.
Double move for a base 30ft speed creatue is a rate of 6.8 mph.
I don't know anyone who walks at 6.8 mph (avg human walking speed is 3 mph, roughly a move action per round)
Maths
30 ft +30 ft = 60ft in 6 seconds. 60 ft x10 = 600ft per minute. 600 ft x 60 = 36,000 ft per hour. 5280 ft = 1 mile. 36,000ft/52800ft = 6.8 miles per hour
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It wouldn't be the first time melee combat had benefits that ranged combat didn't. Take for example 'Flanking'.
There are ways for ranged combatants to threaten adjacent opponents and make AoO's, but they can never receive the bonus from 'Flanking' as it calls out melee attacks.
In this case 'Withdraw' specifically calls out moving away from melee combat - therefore, according to the rules, you can't withdraw from ranged combat.
This is the last line of withdraw. Why? Because they knew people would get confused by the name and think you had to flee to use it. Same thing with Expeditious Retreat.
They're just names, people, they're just names.
Of course you don't have to flee. You just have to move from melee combat. The CRB describes melee combat as "Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other."
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Charging is moving in a traight line. I would rule that there's nothing wrong with "charging" an empty square X feet away, so long as you met the requirements of moving at least 10 feet for a charge and that was your only action for the round. Why restrict Dragon Style's movement otherwise? if a GM is a real stickler about needing a target, have the druid summon a dire rat for you to charge with an unarmed strike.
Double moves are just two move actions without the AC penalty or straight line restrictions. Dragon Style would NOT be usable here.
Withdrawing is a double move with no other actions and one VERY specific caveat. The FIRST, and ONLY the first step in your movement (For medium characters the first square they leave. For a larger creature, this would be the first set of squares you leave.), is NOT considered to be from a threatened square. It is otherwise a normal doublemove.
It is NOT a charge, as a charge is wrecklessly moving and not carefully leaving a threatened space.
If a creature you are moving away from threatens the second square you leave, whether by clever positioning, or they have reach, you will be subject to attack of opportunities from them in that second square.
If an additional creature threatens at a point in your movement other than the first square, you will be subject to attack of opportunities from them.
Withdraw only protects the first 5 feet of movement.
You'd be flat footed for a round.
So the consensus is that you don't have to have an enemy right next to you to withdraw?
Very curious about this. FAQed
"I Withdraw from the invisible guy who might be threatening."
"Suuuure. I still Withdraw."