Yes.
In order to use a feat, you must meet the prerequisites when you are using it. If circumstances, including temporary ability score modifiers, cause you to fail to meet the prerequisites, then you lose access to the feat until such time as you again meet the prerequisites.
Yep
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No. Just as a temporary bonus to a stat doesn't let you qualify for a feat you wouldn't otherwise qualify for, a temporary penalty to a stat doesn't disqualify you from a feat you would otherwise qualify for.
By contrast, if you suffer stat drain from some source, that does affect the stat directly and could potentially cancel out stat-prereqs on feats you already have. Alternatively, if you wear a stat-changing item for more than 24 hours, the change becomes permanent (so long as you keep using the item) which could meet prereqs. But if you removed the item, the stat boost goes away and if this drops you under the prereq amount, you've got to go through the 24 hour waiting period again to get it back.
Quoted directly from the PRD
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
You must have the prerequisite ability score.
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Enlarge person doesn't apply drain or damage though. It is -2 size penalty to dex. Which falls outside of the normal rules for temporary ability effects.
A penalty to a character's Dexterity actually adjusts that caharacter's Dexterity score. This can certainly affect the caharacter's ability to use a feat.
Similarly, a bonus to a character's Dexterity score can allow a character to qualify for a feat. If the bonus is removed, the feat may become unusable.
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
This is pretty clear cut, I think. It doesn't make a concession for "temporary" anywhere in there.
I disagree with several of these statements. FOR EXAMPLE ,a two weapon fighting ranger does NOT require even 2 points of dex to use both weapons. That being said, if your level of two weapon fighting ARE dependent upon the dex, i still dont think that would matter as it is a temporary condition. You have already learned how to fight with both weapons. The prerequisite is to learn the feat, and does not state you lose it if your dex drops.
Exactly. If you have the ability score, you qualify for the feat and can take and use it. If you do not, then you can't take the feat and cannot use it if you already have it. How you arrive at the requisite ability score isn't relevant.
I disagree with several of these statements. FOR EXAMPLE ,a two weapon fighting ranger does NOT require even 2 points of dex to use both weapons. That being said, if your level of two weapon fighting ARE dependent upon the dex, i still dont think that would matter. You have already learned how to fight with both weapons. The prerequisite is to learn the feat, and does not state you lose it if your dex drops.
A TWF ranger is specifically exempt from the prerequisites for those feats. This exemption is irrelevant to the general case this thread is about.
The prerequisite is required to learn and use the feat, as has been cited already:
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
Agreed with blahpers. If for any reason you no longer meet the requirements for a feat, you lose the benefits from that feat. You still have the feat, it just doesn't function.
Your character must have the indicated ability score... in order to select or that feat.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite...
Anybody have any rule they can quote that refutes this?
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You can still use it.
As has been noted, the rules state that penalties from Enlarge count as Ability Damage and the rules on that are;
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Your Dex is not reduced below the prerequisite and thus you continue to be able to use the feat. Ability Drain would cause the loss of ability to use the feat however.
{The Correct Answer}
Preach it brother.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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You know, I was originally on the "you can't use it while Enlarged" camp, but Kazaan is pretty convincing. They went out of their way to state that spell penalties like this count as damage, and define damage as not interfering with prerequisites.
It seems likely to me that this is intended to insure characters such as two-weapon fighters or some casters from losing their best abilities to low-level spells. Or a combat maneuver specialist losing all his feats to a Touch of Idiocy when his Int dropped to 12.
Yep, I agree with this.
Yep, I agree with this.You know, I was originally on the "you can't use it while Enlarged" camp, but Kazaan is pretty convincing. They went out of their way to state that spell penalties like this count as damage, and define damage as not interfering with prerequisites.
It seems likely to me that this is intended to insure characters such as two-weapon fighters or some casters from losing their best abilities to low-level spells. Or a combat maneuver specialist losing all his feats to a Touch of Idiocy when his Int dropped to 12.
I was also originally in the "you can't use it when enlarged camp", but I think I would have been wrong. Good quote there Kazaan.
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Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
To me that says they "function" like ability damage in how they affect you, but ARE actually a reduction. Just like slumber hex has the effect of the sleep spell but is actually a supernatural ability that takes a standard action. Otherwise, the last sentence there is complete nonsense.
I say, yes, penalties can cause you to lose access to a feat.
To me that says they "function" like ability damage in how they affect you, but ARE actually a reduction.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
I don't find it convincing to say that something "functions" like something else but doesn't actually function like it. Ability Damage functions like a reduction in the ability score modifier for each two points of damage. Ability Penalties function like that. If it actually reduced the score, it would have entirely different effects. Such as giving a reduction when the penalty is only 1, if the score is even.
Why would you not just assume that you use the ability damage calculations, but track that the ability score is "actually" whatever score it is after you apply the penalty? Dex as a modifier doesn't actually have any direct relationship to Dex as a prerequisite. When it says there is a penalty to an ability score, I'm inclined to read it literally.
What do you think this means?
In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Design Manager
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No. Just as a temporary bonus to a stat doesn't let you qualify for a feat you wouldn't otherwise qualify for, a temporary penalty to a stat doesn't disqualify you from a feat you would otherwise qualify for.
I'm not sure that's exactly true. In this FAQ, they seem to indicate that temporary bonuses are the same as permanent bonuses in most instances, the limited list of effects was just a space issue.
"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."I would think that the same would be true of penalties.
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Why would you not just assume that you use the ability damage calculations, but track that the ability score is "actually" whatever score it is after you apply the penalty? Dex as a modifier doesn't actually have any direct relationship to Dex as a prerequisite. When it says there is a penalty to an ability score, I'm inclined to read it literally.
What do you think this means?
In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
I think it means what it says. It is also being used to reiterate what was said immediately before > the penalties imposed by some spells function like ability damage, only they can't cause you to fall unconscious or die (which is what would usually happen if your ability score was reduced to less than 1.
Read the link that Kazaan posted. Makes it quite clear when read in its entirety... I was in the other camp prior to reading that link (which for some reason I cannot copy from on my iPad).
Why would you not just assume that you use the ability damage calculations, but track that the ability score is "actually" whatever score it is after you apply the penalty?
Because it doesn't say to do so, it specifically says how it functions.
What do you think this means?
In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
I think it means that:
they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die.
Ssalarn: The FAQ is pointing out that the changes in effective ability score modifiers impact all the normal things that they impact. But the FAQ does not contradict the clear rule that the ability score itself does not change.
Everyone - not impacting prerequisites was entirely why these changes were made. Your character isn't supposed to collapse like that. For instance, you could have a fighter with as many as 8 feats dedicated to Cleaving (including the dwarf ones). If you happen to take Strength damage you will be hurt. But you won't have every feat you have deactivated.
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I've carefully re-read the FAQ, and I think what I said before is the correct reading: temporary effects affect everything. The way they affect bonuses and penalties is streamlined for play, but they do actually change the ability score for all purposes.
Everyone - not impacting prerequisites was entirely why these changes were made.
The FAQ doesn't say that. It says because of hard maths.
Unfortunately, there are various places in the rules where the rule change for ability damage from 3.5 to Pathfinder has not been taken into consideration, or the text was simply copied from the earlier rules and not adjusted.
For example, you might find the rules of a spell or a monster special ability talking about ability damage and then stating that this or that effect occurs when the character is damaged to an ability score of 0. Following the rules to the point would mean the effect never happens, since the ability score is never actually reduced. In most of these cases, the intent is obvious and the rule should always be read as "when the ability damage total equals or exceeds the character's ability score".
The statement "In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1" obviously is an example of these glitches, since temporary penalties can never actually reduce an ability score. Only permanent ability penalties (e.g. aging effects) can reduce the actual ability score.
Unfortunately there not just a few of these cases, and they have never been corrected, and unfortunately this error still happens now and then even in new products. It would be great if these glitches could be caught in editing.
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Kazaan is correct.
Let's use Touch of Idiocy as a good example of why.
If a wizard with an 18 int has their intelligence reduced to 12 by touch of idiocy, all of a sudden their DCs drop a lot, because a DC is a derived ability.
However, they don't actually lose the ability to cast spells higher than 2nd level (which normally would require an Int score of higher than 12 to do).
That's because they still have the prerequisite ability score to cast the spells, they just aren't going to be as effective with them because it has ben weakened.
Weakened is not the same as gone.
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Kazaan is correct.
Let's use Touch of Idiocy as a good example of why.
If a wizard with an 18 int has their intelligence reduced to 12 by touch of idiocy, all of a sudden their DCs drop a lot, because a DC is a derived ability.
However, they don't actually lose the ability to cast spells higher than 2nd level (which normally would require an Int score of higher than 12 to do).
That's because they still have the prerequisite ability score to cast the spells, they just aren't going to be as effective with them because it has ben weakened.
Weakened is not the same as gone.
Did I just fail my detect sarcasm roll?
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Anyway, that settles it for me. Penalties affect prerequisites.
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Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage
Ability Score Damage
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Is there some part of this that you don't see as clear cut?
The penalty from Enlarge is Ability Damage.
Ability Damage does not reduce an ability.
If your ability is not reduced you still meet prerequisites. There's nothing foggy or uncertain in that, simple & clear rules statements which show you do not lose feat access, that's all.
Specific trumps general. It affects your spellcasting because it specifically overrides the general rule.Anyway, that settles it for me. Penalties affect prerequisites.
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Well, if you're claiming penalties don't actually lower a score, then that sentence of Touch of Idiocy is wasted ink.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damageAbility Score Damage
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Is there some part of this that you don't see as clear cut?
The penalty from Enlarge is Ability Damage.
Ability Damage does not reduce an ability.If your ability is not reduced you still meet prerequisites. There's nothing foggy or uncertain in that, simple & clear rules statements which show you do not lose feat access, that's all.
This also makes sense when looked at this way - Cat's grace doesn't allow you to qualify for a new feat for the three 3 minutes that it is active, so why should enlarge person cause you to lose access to a feat for the 3 minutes it is active?
This also makes sense when looked at this way - Cat's grace doesn't allow you to qualify for a new feat for the three 3 minutes that it is active, so why should enlarge person cause you to lose access to a feat for the 3 minutes it is active?Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damageAbility Score Damage
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Is there some part of this that you don't see as clear cut?
The penalty from Enlarge is Ability Damage.
Ability Damage does not reduce an ability.If your ability is not reduced you still meet prerequisites. There's nothing foggy or uncertain in that, simple & clear rules statements which show you do not lose feat access, that's all.
Well the argument would be that cats grace gives you an enhancement bonus which is specifically called out as not actually increasing your score (unless it last longer than 24 hours) and enlarge person giving you a size penalty to an ability score. A size penalty does change your ability score. However, according to the link Kazaan posted (thanks, I hadn't read that) the size modifier is treated as temporary damage because the penalty originates from a spell.
Where does it say the ability penalty works like ability damage?
Where does it say the ability penalty works like ability damage?
Click the link in my post directly above yours.
I'm not sold one way or the other quite yet. I believe temp ability damage from a spell wouldn't make you lose a feat per ability and drain rules as the the posted link. However, enlarge/reduce person simply state you physically change size catagories and then follow that statment by listing the effect of changing a size. No where in the link does it say treat size changes as ability damage, or ALL spells for that matter. The spell does not directly do damage to an ability score it simply changes your size catagory.
I'm not sold one way or the other quite yet. I believe temp ability damage from a spell wouldn't make you lose a feat per ability and drain rules as the the posted link. However, enlarge/reduce person simply state you physically change size catagories and then follow that statment by listing the effect of changing a size. No where in the link does it say treat size changes as ability damage, or ALL spells for that matter. The spell does not directly do damage to an ability score it simply changes your size catagory.
Reread the link again (not trying to be snippy, I didn't catch it the first time either). The last paragraph says to treat penalties as temporary ability damage. The size penalty, while normally affecting your actual score, is treated as temporary ability damage because the change is a result of the spell.
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As a note, we know that temporary bonuses already act differently from penalties such as damage. For instance, temporary bonuses do not stack, but penalties do.
Here's the text for those following this:
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
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Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
Bonuses ALWAYS increase the stat itself. That was what the FAQ was about, whether or not temporary bonuses was increasing the ability stat or just a few derived things (like cmb, hit, etc...).
This is NOT TRUE for ability damage, that is specifically called out as a feature of ability drain (see the quotes below). This means that the FAQ does NOT apply to ability damage.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score... This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. (Such as feats, anyone?)
Some developer commentary. Note that he's speaking of bonuses, which are different from modifiers, but I believe the logic should carry through.
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Some developer commentary. Note that he's speaking of bonuses, which are different from modifiers, but I believe the logic should carry through.
Seems like a pretty good comment to show Dev intent, if Temporary bonuses don't count for feat prerequisites then it would presumably follow that neither would temporary penalties. Especially when taking into account all the other rules we've seen on how only Ability Drain, a very specific form of damage that is called out as such in the rules whenever it occurs, actually reduces a stat numerically.
Not if the intent was for ToI to be able to reduce spellcasting ability despite ability penalties not normally being able to. By default, an ability penalty is ability damage that cannot total to more than one less than the total value of the stat it affects. This means that it can never render a target unconscious. However, the presumed intent, given the additional line regarding spellcasters, is that they wanted it to actually affect spellcasting like Ability Drain would. But they didn't want it to KO the target. Without that clause, it would work just like normal Ability Penalty; it affects your effective stat mod only and cannot knock you out. With the clause, it still cannot knock you out, but it takes a single page out of the book of Ability Drain and can reduce the highest level of spell you're able to cast. It still wouldn't affect feat prerequisites. So, if that's the intent (and no reason to presume it isn't), then it's most certainly not a waste of ink. It's a very necessary expenditure of space to make the RAW work in line with the RAI.
It still works just like ability damage. If you don't acknowledge a penalty doesn't reduce the ability score, then that line is never triggered.
Example: You have Intelligence 17. You are hit with 6 points of Intelligence damage from Touch of Idiocy. Since you say the penalty doesn't reduce your Intelligence, your Int is still 17 and you can still cast second level spells.
The reason you can't use temporary bonuses for qualifying for feats is because you have to have a permanent score to select the feat. It's the same kind of thing as when you don't gain extra skill ranks for Intelligence bonuses that are temporary.