I tossed together a punchy-fisty monk build and I'm wondering how it pans out. I'm trying to make one who can hit passably through their career, deal decent damage, and can survive and function at their level in terms of HP/AC/saves; I'm not sure how well I'm succeeding at this point.
here's what i've got so far:
str 26 (10pts +4lvl +6belt)
dex 20 (3pts +1lvl +6belt)
con 14 (2pts +2r)
int 10
wis 22 (5pts +2r +6headband)
cha 8 (-2r)
traits:
- iron fist (+1 damage to unarmed attacks)
- ???
feats:
1 - Glory of Old, Crane Style (m1)
2 - Crane Wing (m2), Toughness (m2)
3 - Dragon Style, Combat Reflexes (f1)
4 - ??? (f2)
5 - Dragon Ferocity
7 - Snake Style
9 - Lunge, Crane Riposte (m6)
11 - Elemental Fist (electricity 4d6, 17/day)
13 - Imp. Critical (unarmed strike), Snake Fang (m10)
15 - ???
17 - ???, ??? (m14)
19 - ???
focused skills would be acrobatics, perception, sense motive, UMD, and the spare points from FCB spent on utility skill dips (such as knowledges, climb/swim/fly, ride, etc.)
class order:
M/M/F/F/F (4 bab, 6/4/4 saves) | M/M/M/M/M (8 bab, 9/7/7 saves) | M/M/M/M/M (12 bab, 11/9/9 saves) | M/M/M/M/M (15 bab, 13/11/11 saves)
all FCBs (monk) into skill points.
.
AC: 44* (10 + 6 wis + 5 dex + 5 monk + 8 bracers + 5 deflection +1 natural +2 shield* +2 insight**)
saves: 20/21/22 (24/25/26 against spells/SLAs) (13/11/11 base + 2/5/6 stat + 5/5/5 cloak)
swing at: 34/29/24 (15 BAB + 8 str + 5 enhancement + 8 misc (see items))
damage: ~55 avg, 70 max (2d6 (~7, 12) base + 16 str + 3 gloves + 1 trait + 2d6 (~7, 12) holy + 2d6 (~7, 12) bane + 4d6 (~14, 24) EF)
* - if you start and end your turn in the same square--this doesn't mean you cant move, only that you end up back where you started.
** - requires you to keep your vow of silence.
WBL @ (rough gear estimates):
[spoiler]
4 - 6,000g (cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (unarmed strike) (1500), wayfinder (500), chain shirt (100), cloak of resist +1 (1000), ring of protection +1 (2000), cold iron brass knuckles, alchemical silver brass knuckles, misc.) ~900g remaining
8 - 33,000g ([above], cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack) (4000), monk’s robe (15,000), +2 wis headband (4000), +2 str belt, +1 AoMF (4000)) ~1,900g remaining, sell the chain shirt when you get the robe
12 - 108,000g ([above], +3 AoMF (36,000), +3 cloak of resist (9000), ring of protection +2 (8000), +3 bracers of armor (9000), bane baldric (10,000), dueling gloves (15000), boots of speed (12000)) ~10,000g remaining
16 - 315,000g ([above], +5 AoMF (100,000), +5 cloak of resist (25,000), +6 bracers of armor (36,000), +4 ring of protection (32,000), +1 holy bodywrap of mighty strikes (27,000), +4 str+dex belt (40,000), +4 wis headband (16,000) ) ~33,000g remaining, sell monks robe when you get the bodywrap
20 - 880,000g (max out your current gear, you’ll have money to spare)
main items:
+8 bracers of armor, +5 ring of protection, +5 cloak of resistance, +5 AoMF, +6 str/dex belt, +6 wis headband, +1 Holy bodywraps of mighty strikes (HERESY), dueling gloves (+3 atk/dmg), flawed pale green prism ioun stone (+1 atk), wayfinder slotted opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (unarmed strike) (+1 atk), bane baldric (+2 atk, +2d6 dmg, swift action), boots of speed (+1 ac/ref, +1 atk, +30 spd, free action)
fun fact: until level 7 you can wear a chain shirt at pretty much no loss, ability-wise.
[/spoiler]
I'm mainly unsure of what to take as a second trait (a save or init booster i'd think), the bonus feat at 4th level from fighter 2 (no not power attack, that actually hurts monks in most cases. dodge might be an okay choice), and the post-PFS feats.
I'll try to assemble some gear and attack/AC at 4-8-12-16-20th level to see how they stack up, since 20th level with WBL in a vacuum may not hold up at lower levels.
AGH, now i cant edit it anymore! i'm stuck with buchered spoilers on that, since apparently you cant nest the things anymore.
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what levels are you starting at, if from level 1 i would rather have snake style first then gain crane as i level
also why is glory of old a feat, its a trait? that feat should be something like dodge, enforcer, weapon focus, catch off guard, or something else.
seems like you will be successful in combat. i dont like damage dealing monks very much, only because you have so many options that can do it better.
and add in qinggong for barkskin, get that ac up a little more.
i am interested to see how your monk competes with the more standard martials without having flurry of blows. I am aware that you can have significant benefits to your attacks by combining styles, but I still fail to see how to make a stronger monk than a fighter, as far as DPR is concearned at least. Compare him to a brawler with a small MOMS monk dip to see what i am talking about. Of course, you need to be competent not only with the unarmed fighter, but also with the two-handed weapon one (arguably much tougher), as well as the TWFer.
From the various style feats, I like to combine:
- Marid Style and Marid Spirit: Add wisdom to elemental fist damage and Fort save vs entagle. makes elemental fist worth using IMO.
- Dragon style and Ferocity for obvious reasons.
- Monkey Shine: +4 bonus on melee attack rolls goes a long way, among the free AoO and the armor bonus you take. Remember that without flurry you do not have full BAB.
- Tiger Pounce: It screws defence, but makes power attack worth using, and what a great damage amplifier it is.
Of course it is practically impossible to have all of them in addition to the crane and snake style feats, which are totally awesome but more defensive in nature and I do not believe that they have so great synergy with other style feats.
If you can get a custom equivalent of dueling gloves, a 3lvl dip in Brawler fighter gives even more damage.
From the pure monk unarmed builds, I find interesting a Wisdom based martial artist with a guided AoMF. Exploit weakness allows to avoid any DR pretty reliably, as long as you keep your wisdom top-notch. The bunch of immunities that replace the flavorful but pretty useless other features of the monk sweeten the deal.
These are my initial thoughts. Keep it up to see how it goes.
I'm not trying to compete with a fighter (because full BAB and them being MADE for damage would blow this out of the water), i'm more trying to compete with/surpass the other 3/4 bab classes like inquisitor, ninja, etc.
snake and crane styles are to bolster it defensively, but i may trade snake out for marid, since currently you get it a bit late to see much use from it, and the bonuses form marid might be nice. trading snake for crane (and thus crane for marid) might also be a possibility, and it'd free up another monk feat for something. monkey shine is great, but takes two feats that i'm not sure i've got early game--its a wonderful idea for late game though. i'll mark it down.
as for the custom item ideas, i'm trying to stick to pre-existing stuff so anyone can use this.
what levels are you starting at, if from level 1 i would rather have snake style first then gain crane as i level
also why is glory of old a feat, its a trait? that feat should be something like dodge, enforcer, weapon focus, catch off guard, or something else.
seems like you will be successful in combat. i dont like damage dealing monks very much, only because you have so many options that can do it better.
and add in qinggong for barkskin, get that ac up a little more.
DOUBLE AGH! i forgot that i wanted glory of old as the second trait, and steel soul as the 1st-level feat. I'll adjust it on my sheet here and link a doc.
weapon focus is granted by the wayfinder slotted opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (2000g investment well worth it), so no need to take the feat
qinggong is a good idea, but what abilities to trade out, since sacred mountain eats up most of the usual suspects (slow fall, etc.)? enforcer might be good (though the cha penalty might be a pain to deal with), and why would you suggest catch off-guard?
Alright, I've adjusted the build a bit.
Here's the link to the doc. Needs a look over and a feat for 19th level.
added step up line as filler and for yet more AoOs, and monkey stye/shine as well (trying to get as many full BAB attacks downfield as you can manage).
edit: fixed the link, it should work now.
Use qinggong monk to get arcane strike for a damage boost.
First advice is forget about any archetype without flurry if you want to punch stuff. Unaugmented medium BAB just isn't enough. The only non-flurry archetype that has augmented BAB is the sensei, and if you compare that to the bard or the bard-like cleric archetype you'll notice that it's insultingly bad.
from what i see on the prd, the average monster AC at 20th (as of the monstergen rules) is 36, and I've got him swinging at +34/34(/34 ki)/29/24 (after a swift and free action in the first round, and assuming a ki attack in subsequent ones), so his accuracy would be at 90%/90%(/90% ki)/65%/40%, and any AoOs would be at 90% as well. that doesnt seem half bad.
Use qinggong monk to get arcane strike for a damage boost.
that's a nice idea! though that puts a bottleneck on your swift actions (caught between snake style's additional AoO option, ki uses (including the extra attack), and now arcane strike)
+34/34(/34 ki)/29/24 (after a swift and free action in the first round, and assuming a ki attack in subsequent ones), so his accuracy would be at 90%/90%(/90% ki)/65%/40%, and any AoOs would be at 90% as well. that doesnt seem half bad.
Are you sure a non-flurry monk can spend a Ki point to get an extra attack? The RAW is pretty specifically crappy though I'm not sure that the RAI would exempt it.
added a section at the bottom of the build for qinggong tradeable abilities that aren't taken by the other archetypes. so you can grab barkskin, ki leech, penetrating strike, etc.
+34/34(/34 ki)/29/24 (after a swift and free action in the first round, and assuming a ki attack in subsequent ones), so his accuracy would be at 90%/90%(/90% ki)/65%/40%, and any AoOs would be at 90% as well. that doesnt seem half bad.Are you sure a non-flurry monk can spend a Ki point to get an extra attack? The RAW is pretty specifically crappy though I'm not sure that the RAI would exempt it.
ah, youre right. it specifically mentions while making a flurry, so that's one attack (and swift action worry) out, unfortunately. makes arcane strike a much nicer option now though--but what to move around to make room... step up line?
EDIT: made room for arcane strike!
with arcane strike it bumps his hit to +38/38/34/29 using the swift action you'd normally use for the extra attack, and an extra +4 damage to boot!
that's assuming it goes off of monk level for CL (it mentiones the monks class level, so it may be +5 atk/dmg instead of +4 if it goes off of character level)
Arcane strike does not boost to-hit, only damage. (an sla qualifies him for it and scales off the CL for the SLA. Example a rogue with minor magic prestidigitation can use arcane strike to full effect)
oh whoops. correcting now.
Arcane strike is +5 at 20 not +4
Arcane strike is +5 at 20 not +4
i'm pretty sure i already updated the damage calc for that (in the doc).
edit: oh, forgot to update it in the feat listing. i could see where that'd confuse folks. correcting.
I tossed together a punchy-fisty monk build and I'm wondering how it pans out. I'm trying to make one who can hit passably through their career, deal decent damage, and can survive and function at their level in terms of HP/AC/saves; I'm not sure how well I'm succeeding at this point.
Welcome to the club, and if you can make one you will be about the first.
OK, looking at your build, my comments are:
MoMS - bad choice, really, you get no flurry which means 3/4 BAB. I make your BAB at +15, which is bad especially as you cannot augment it. I mean yes, using Dragon Style is cool and all, especially combined with Snake Fang and Crane Riposte, but that means diddly if you cannot hit anything, and this monk will be behind the curve at pretty much every level.
Your attack bonus of +34 at level 20 is not good. I mean yes, it gives you a hit on a CR-equivelent foe...what about the fights that really matter though, at CR+2, +3, or +4? What about enemies that buff (and they sometimes do, AC is usually given as un-buffed)? What about hitting not just with your first attack but with your third?
For comparison, an ancient red dragon (CR19) can have an AC of 42 by casting one spell, more if he uses any equipment in his hoard (and there is no reason he wouldn't). Ideally you want to hit AC42 at 95% with your first attack, because you want to hit it a LOT. AC 44 is pretty good, but could be better on a monk. I notice that you haven't included inherent bonuses from Tomes and Manuals in your build, and I would really recommend them. Hit Points are going to be terrible with that con, and your AC is not so amazing that you will not get hit (our CR19 dragon above gets 6 attacks at +33-35, the CR24 creature is practically going to auto-hit you and Crane Wing only stops one attack).
I suggest adding at least Qingong into the mix, so you have more varied abilities (including bumping up your AC), and while MoMS looks cool, I really suggest dropping it. Feats can let you blend two styles, and I would say that's all you need (Dragon and Snake, for preference), and that will bump your attack bonus a little as well.
Fir comparison here's a fighter I turned out for another thread - this guy isn't optimised that heavily for damage, he was intended as a more maneuver based guy that can hurt things, but you get the idea of what sort of numbers you need to aim at, because any melee foe coming your way will be tailored to challenge this:
Male Human Fighter 20
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +24
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 41, touch 22, flat-footed 35 (+14 armor, +5 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 284 (20d10+160)
Fort +23, Ref +18, Will +17 (+5 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +5, fortification 25%; DR 5/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 armor spikes +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d6+20/×2) and
. . +5 speed adamantine guisarme +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (2d4+31/19-20/×4) and
. . gauntlet (from armor) +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d3+15/×2) and
. . unarmed strike +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d3+15/×2)
Ranged +2 composite longbow +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+16/×3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1, bows +2, close +3, pole arms +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +32 (+36 disarm, +34 grapple, +36 sunder, +36 trip); CMD 54 (56 vs. disarm, 56 vs. grapple, 56 vs. sunder, 56 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Greater Disarm, Greater Sunder, Greater Trip, Greater Weapon Focus (guisarme), Greater Weapon Specialization (guisarme), Improved Critical (guisarme), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Iron Will, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Lunge, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (guisarme), Weapon Specialization (guisarme)
Skills Climb +31, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Perception +24, Ride +10, Survival +13, Swim +21
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ ghost touch, weapon mastery
Other Gear +5 Armor spikes (magical), Fortification (light), , +2 Composite longbow (Str +12), +5 Speed Adamantine Guisarme, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Manual of bodily health +2, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Manual of quickness of action +2, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Winged boots (3/day), 789 PP, 1 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Improved Iron Will (1/day) - 0/1
Winged boots (3/day) - 0/3
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-6 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Fortification 25% You have a chance to negate critical hits on attacks.
Ghost touch Enhancement and armor bonus count against incorporeal creatures.
Greater Disarm When disarming a foe, their weapon lands 15 ft away in a random direction.
Greater Sunder When destroying an item, extra damage is transferred to the wielder.
Greater Trip Foes you trip provoke AoO when they are knocked prone.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Weapon Mastery (Guisarme) (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
+34 to hit at 20 is just fine
+34 to hit at 20 is just fine
For a cleric or rogue, sure. Not for a character that can't buff it and still wants to mix it with the big boys it isn't, sadly. As I pointed out, target ACs at this level scale up to 42 and beyond, and you need to hit those reliably to stay contributing.
+34 to hit at 20 is just fineFor a cleric or rogue, sure. Not for a character that can't buff it and still wants to mix it with the big boys it isn't, sadly. As I pointed out, target ACs at this level scale up to 42 and beyond, and you need to hit those reliably to stay contributing.
Haste plus flanking and we're at +37 to hit with an extra attack. Assuming the fighter is in the same position he's back to power attacking and gap narrows once again.
If the AC pumps to much beyond that, your spell casters will be casting greater dispel magic to boon strip. Because they want the fighter to be able to power attack just as much as they want the monk to constantly hit.
I tossed together a punchy-fisty monk build and I'm wondering how it pans out. I'm trying to make one who can hit passably through their career, deal decent damage, and can survive and function at their level in terms of HP/AC/saves; I'm not sure how well I'm succeeding at this point.Welcome to the club, and if you can make one you will be about the first.
OK, looking at your build, my comments are:
MoMS - bad choice, really, you get no flurry which means 3/4 BAB. I make your BAB at +15, which is bad especially as you cannot augment it. I mean yes, using Dragon Style is cool and all, especially combined with Snake Fang and Crane Riposte, but that means diddly if you cannot hit anything, and this monk will be behind the curve at pretty much every level.
Your attack bonus of +34 at level 20 is not good. I mean yes, it gives you a hit on a CR-equivelent foe...what about the fights that really matter though, at CR+2, +3, or +4? What about enemies that buff (and they sometimes do, AC is usually given as un-buffed)? What about hitting not just with your first attack but with your third?
For comparison, an ancient red dragon (CR19) can have an AC of 42 by casting one spell, more if he uses any equipment in his hoard (and there is no reason he wouldn't). Ideally you want to hit AC42 at 95% with your first attack, because you want to hit it a LOT. AC 44 is pretty good, but could be better on a monk. I notice that you haven't included inherent bonuses from Tomes and Manuals in your build, and I would really recommend them. Hit Points are going to be terrible with that con, and your AC is not so amazing that you will not get hit (our CR19 dragon above gets 6 attacks at +33-35, the CR24 creature is practically going to auto-hit you and Crane Wing only stops one attack).
I suggest adding at least Qingong into the mix, so you have more varied abilities (including bumping up your AC), and while MoMS looks cool, I really suggest dropping it. Feats can let you blend two styles,...
while your post seems kind of caustic, it boils down to "dont get rid of flurry", i think?
the styles used currently are snake/dragon/marid/monkey, crane was removed
and as stated, i'm NOT trying to compare to a fighter (or any full-BAB class), i'm trying to compare to the 3/4 BAB classes in terms of power--that's waht the monk is, for all its pusturing and pretending to be a full BAB class. the fighter/paladin/ranger can keep its superior hit/damage, i care not.
and qinggong is already included in the build (its how we're getting arcane strike).
now, you could feasibly remove MoMS from this build. keeping dragon style (which was purchased legit, rather than with monk bonus feats), and trading out the other styles for regular monk bonus feats and freeing up your 17th-level feats (and trading out a nice chunk of your early game defenses, midgame control, etc.), in exchange for the ability to flurry at full BAB -2, spend ki for an extra attack (and competing for your swift actions with arcane strike, though that could get dropped in lieu of this new attack), and access to the rather lackluster monk bonus feat list.
since youve got flurry now, the defensive workaround with the chain shirt for the early game (till ~7th level) is useless now, since your main combat action would be removed if youre wearing it.
I suggest adding at least Qingong into the mix, so you have more varied abilities (including bumping up your AC), and while MoMS looks cool, I really suggest dropping it. Feats can let you blend two styles,...
Which feats are those? I know there is Combat Style Master that makes it easy to switch between styles, but not sure if that's what you meant. Easy switching is nice, but not exactly the same as what MoMS allows, so just want to make sure I'm not missing something.
Haste plus flanking and we're at +37 to hit with an extra attack. Assuming the fighter is in the same position he's back to power attacking and gap narrows once again.+34 to hit at 20 is just fineFor a cleric or rogue, sure. Not for a character that can't buff it and still wants to mix it with the big boys it isn't, sadly. As I pointed out, target ACs at this level scale up to 42 and beyond, and you need to hit those reliably to stay contributing.
Well assuming the fighter doesn't want to hit that often, yes. But if the AC is up on that, the fighter may choose to hang on to the bonuses and concentrate on getting hits. For example if your target AC is 50 (and that's not impossible to face at 20th level) then the fighter is likely to hang on to that +46 attack bonus, while the monk punches air.
Assuming flanking is possible, of course.
If the AC pumps to much beyond that, your spell casters will be casting greater dispel magic to boon strip. Because they want the fighter to be able to power attack just as much as they want the monk to constantly hit.
Well of course they will - but up against a caster at their level +5 (about what you might expect from a CR+4 enemy) and they have a problem making those dispels stick, you cannot rely on them to debuff. It makes more sense to buff your allies, because those buffs WILL work.
while your post seems kind of caustic, it boils down to "dont get rid of flurry", i think?
It would be a tough goal with flurry, without it I think you are setting yourself an impossible task. Sorry if I came across as caustic, BTW, I'm just trying to be realistic. A lot of us have been aiming at these goals with monks for the last four years, and not hit the mark (at least, not the mark we set for ourselves).
and as stated, i'm NOT trying to compare to a fighter (or any full-BAB class), i'm trying to compare to the 3/4 BAB classes in terms of power--that's waht the monk is, for all its pusturing and pretending to be a full BAB class. the fighter/paladin/ranger can keep its superior hit/damage, i care not.
Sooo...you want to compare the monk to a non-combat class (the rogue)? Well he'll beat the rogue, no issue there. Other than that...well that puts you against CoDzilla, as well as bards, inquisitors, magus, summoner...They all get spells as well as some great abilities to compensate for lack of full BAB, and your monk doesn't. I do not see these comparisons working favourably, myself.
The monk can, IMHO, only be compared to the other non- or minor-spell-casting combat classes - fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, and cavalier. They are there to fight, and so is the monk.
and qinggong is already included in the build (its how we're getting arcane strike).
My bad, I missed that.
now, you could feasibly remove MoMS from this build. keeping dragon style (which was purchased legit, rather than with monk bonus feats), and trading out the other styles for regular monk bonus feats and freeing up your 17th-level feats (and trading out a nice chunk of your early game defenses, midgame control, etc.), in exchange for the ability to flurry at full BAB -2, spend ki for an extra attack (and competing for your swift actions with arcane strike, though that could get dropped in lieu of this new attack), and access to the rather lackluster monk bonus feat list.
Tough one, isn't it? Some of those feats are not to bad, though. As for trading out your defence I don't see what you are losing - remember offence IS defence, if you can kill the enemy quickly and dragon style rules with multiple attacks at low level.
If you stick with MoMS though, consider also going Sensei, as they get the equivelant of bardic performance and can hence self-buff up to something approaching full BAB.
since youve got flurry now, the defensive workaround with the chain shirt for the early game (till ~7th level) is useless now, since your main combat action would be removed if youre wearing it.
So you are making a monk-that-is-not-a-monk, I guess. A solution at low level is mage armour - either by dipping a level of empyral sorcerer, grabbing a few potions, or seeing if the party arcane caster will mind using a wand on your behalf. Bit of a cheat solution, but it works.
Truth be told, the low levels (2nd to 7th) are where monks actually work best in my experience, so I don't think you are going to lose more than you gain.
MoMS is a functional monk build provided you pick the right styles. It's a little harder to pull off though. Also you get less out of dragon style with about half the attacks.
Monk once again compared to a fighter build, not just once but 2 times in this thread.
Why do people do that?
Fighter is the standard for martial combat. Even rogues measure themselves to the fighter.
and as stated, i'm NOT trying to compare to a fighter (or any full-BAB class), i'm trying to compare to the 3/4 BAB classes in terms of power--that's waht the monk is, for all its pusturing and pretending to be a full BAB class. the fighter/paladin/ranger can keep its superior hit/damage, i care not.Sooo...you want to compare the monk to a non-combat class (the rogue)? Well he'll beat the rogue, no issue there. Other than that...well that puts you against CoDzilla, as well as bards, inquisitors, magus, summoner...They all get spells as well as some great abilities to compensate for lack of full BAB, and your monk doesn't. I do not see these comparisons working favourably, myself.
The monk can, IMHO, only be compared to the other non- or minor-spell-casting combat classes - fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, and cavalier. They are there to fight, and so is the monk.
now, you could feasibly remove MoMS from this build. keeping dragon style (which was purchased legit, rather than with monk bonus feats), and trading out the other styles for regular monk bonus feats and freeing up your 17th-level feats (and trading out a nice chunk of your early game defenses, midgame control, etc.), in exchange for the ability to flurry at full BAB -2, spend ki for an extra attack (and competing for your swift actions with arcane strike, though that could get dropped in lieu of this new attack), and access to the rather lackluster monk bonus feat list.Tough one, isn't it? Some of those feats are not to bad, though. As for trading out your defence I don't see what you are losing - remember offence IS defence, if you can kill the enemy quickly and dragon style rules with multiple attacks at low level.
If you stick with MoMS though, consider also going Sensei, as they get the equivelant of bardic performance and can hence self-buff up to something approaching full BAB.
since youve got flurry now, the defensive workaround with the chain shirt for the early game (till ~7th level) is useless now, since your main combat action would be removed if youre wearing it.So you are making a monk-that-is-not-a-monk, I guess. A solution at low level is mage armour - either by dipping a level of empyral sorcerer, grabbing a few potions, or seeing if the party arcane caster will mind using a wand on your behalf. Bit of a cheat solution, but it works.
Truth be told, the low levels (2nd to 7th) are where monks actually work best in my experience, so I don't think you are going to lose more than you gain.
points in order:
-i'm not trying to compare to the rogue--well-built ninja maybe, but ANYONE can beat a rogue. anyone. I'm talking about inquisitors, alchemists, bards, etc. yes they have neato abilities to compensate for their lack of BAB, that's what i'm trying to reach at least, before looking upward.-as for offence being defense, that's assuming you can dispatch EVERYONE you're dealing with, since without defenses they'll turn you into a fine red paste when their allies urn rolls around. I do understand that a dead enemy deals no damage, but if they have friends you need to worry about them after your turn is up.
I'm not saying folks should turtle up, just that having respectable AC/saves can save your life, which is quite helpful for continued survival.
I'm looking over sensei now--honestly i'd never paid much attention to the archetype before now.
-i resent your insinuation that a monk who wears a shirt is no longer a monk. true it doesnt adhere to people's mental image of an unarmored shaolin monk who goes flying around kicking people in the face, but monks are hard-pressed to do that in the system anyway (because if one is mobile, they cant do damage). the monk has to stand still do get any real work done, which clashes with their other abilities--they could work so much better with something like the mobile fighter's 'Rapid Attack' ability, but that's not currently within the scope of the system. there have also historically been armored monks, but that's irrelevant here.
Monk AC generally doesnt catch up or pass armored AC until high level and REALLY high stats. The chain shirt keeps him covered without a buff round--which requires seven and a half times the price for a wand (that will eventually run out) of said buff, and either casting it yourself with UMD, or begging it off a party caster, which spends actions of theirs they could use more effectively. until this build gains fast movement at... 6th? he loses absolutely nothing by doing so. why shouldn't he wear it at that point, beyond aesthetics?
Fighter is the standard for martial combat. Even rogues measure themselves to the fighter.Monk once again compared to a fighter build, not just once but 2 times in this thread.
Why do people do that?
which is a shame really--the smaller classes simply dont measure up most of the time (to which people complain their class is underpowered), or completely blow the fighter out of the water (which leads to an argument over invalidating the fighter).
the fighter is DESIGNED to spit damage and very little else. comparing classes that can do so much more in other areas to that is bound for "disappointment" that they cant reach the fighter's freakish damage--except for the crazy optimized builds floating about that exclude all else but damage.
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Why so much hate on the rogue? I've already built a rogue 10 duelist 10 that beats the living hell out of a fighter at 20. The fighter just won't hit. (Unless He is purely built for maneuvers)
That aside. I never try to make the Monk a boxer. It never works out well.
I find it very hard to believe that a fighter 20 is less accurate than a rogue/duelist. Full BAB plus weapon training means the fighter will have +8 to hit over the duelist, assuming ability scores and enhancement bonuses are the same.
I find it very hard to believe that a fighter 20 is less accurate than a rogue/duelist. Full BAB plus weapon training means the fighter will have +8 to hit over the duelist, assuming ability scores and enhancement bonuses are the same.Why so much hate on the rogue? I've already built a rogue 10 duelist 10 that beats the living hell out of a fighter at 20. The fighter just won't hit. (Unless He is purely built for maneuvers)
That aside. I never try to make the Monk a boxer. It never works out well.
i think he means he got the AC so high the fighter couldn't hit?
@Atarlost: Your point is clear--we need more to-hit to compare with the other classes present in the game.
I--and anyone interested in taking a crack at it--will have to ponder ways to boost the to-hit substantially.
dipping is A-Okay, as seen by my use of WM fighter, but my personal goal is to keep the build at least mostly (~12-13+ levels) monk or monk-like PrC (such as champion of irori). I guess I'm avoiding zen archer and tetori, despite them being some of the best among monk archetypes.
(musing)
-keeping flurry is an obvious choice to increase to-hit, but bonuses like the sensei's inspire courage or maneuver master exploiting the bonus to-hit from a prone opponent (among other things) may be decent alternatives.
-dipping magus for spell combat+true strike might be an alternative if flurry is abandoned, but the limited number of spells per day would be a problem for sustainability, as well as adding int to your list of stats to worry about.
-paladin for smite and divine grace is too situational, and puts focus on cha on top of the usual monk stat worries--if you ARE going to worry about/invest in cha, eldritch heritage (draconic) for a scaling natural armor bonus could help mitigate the lack of an ANA (though the cost of three feats is more than a little hefty)
-barbarian for rage would be difficult due to alignment restrictions (unless you go with the martial artist AT), but if playtest material is allowed, the bloodrager might be an alternative since it isn't alignment-locked--though it has the same cha problems as the paladin
-(crusader)cleric dip might be useful for weapon focus/channel smite/guided hand wis-centric shenanigans, but unarmed striking would pale in comparison to some of the other deity weapons floating around like the greatsword and katana(shizuru), for instance.
-the perfect strike feat may be a possible way to "fake" better to-hit by getting more attempts at landing an attack, rather than a numeric bonus, though unfortunately you're limited to a small list of weapons to use with this (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, and siangham).
maneuver master monk 13/lore warden fighter 7 is popping out to me for some reason, though it likely won't stack up to what i'm thinking.
@Atarlost: Your point is clear--we need more to-hit to compare with the other classes present in the game.
I--and anyone interested in taking a crack at it--will have to ponder ways to boost the to-hit substantially.
dipping is A-Okay, as seen by my use of WM fighter, but my personal goal is to keep the build at least mostly (~12-13+ levels) monk or monk-like PrC (such as champion of irori). I guess I'm avoiding zen archer and tetori, despite them being some of the best among monk archetypes.
(musing)
-keeping flurry is an obvious choice to increase to-hit, but bonuses like the sensei's inspire courage or maneuver master exploiting the bonus to-hit from a prone opponent (among other things) may be decent alternatives.
Dip weapon master for 3 levels this is a net gain of +3 to hit and damage, depending on your GMs stance on the alternatives to weapon training consider doing the same but with the Brawler archetype.
Go Qinggong and use Magical Knack Trait to mostly counter the loss of levels by going fighter for Barkskin ki powers or just ignore Barkskin and use an ANA and the suggestion below.
Use a Temple sword - For whatever reason in their infinite wisdom the game devs decided having Brass knuckles function properly for monks was OP but having a single sword and flurrying with it is fine as a result it's almost always going to be a massive to hit advantage to use this instead of the AoMF and you have the ability to go over +5 net bonus.
See what your DM says about applying the Brawling armor property to Bracers of Armor this can be a big difference if you're going to go unarmed even with the detriments.
Remember that unless the payout is big for a small dip multiclassing is usually a net decrease in power for a character.
Keep Flurry, no really. The Master of Many Styles is a very cool very OP archetype but only for people who are using it as a dip before going into their real class, on it's own it gives up too much to do too little to let it be...
i honestly forgot about jingasa of the fortunate soldier--there's more than enough dosh to fit it into the item recommendations, and weapon focus is granted via the (wayfinder-slotted) opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (flawed/cracked/normal, doesnt matter)
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If you want to switch from MoMS, you probably want to switch Sohei or Sensei, or the Brawler from the ACG. Sohei and Brawler lets you flurry in armor[which is a huge buff to unarmed builds with Brawling armor], and Sohei lets you do a nodachi flurry if you don't use an unarmed build. Sensei eliminates some MAD, and helps the whole party with Inspire Courage and later abilities [like a Sensei of the Four Winds can grant 3 extra standard actions at 12th level].
sohei is apparently supposed to still lose flurry etc. while armored according to this thread, but it doesn't technically, due to replacing the initial monk armor entry (an unintended bug/feature). you can combine sohei with the nature soul/animal ally feats for a full progression animal companion mount (after a boon companion) and since the mounted combat feats it lets you grab are monk bonus feats, you might not need to meet the prereqs, meaning you could possibly grab mounted skirmisher as soon as you get your first iterative.
I made a thread about the combo earlier.
sensei of the 4 winds might be a good idea, i'll screw around with it.
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sohei is apparently supposed to still lose flurry
Yet, FAQ says it doesn't. So either the author changed his mind, or the team ruled against his intent.
that's great news.
-i'm not trying to compare to the rogue--well-built ninja maybe, but ANYONE can beat a rogue. anyone. I'm talking about inquisitors, alchemists, bards, etc. yes they have neato abilities to compensate for their lack of BAB, that's what i'm trying to reach at least, before looking upward.
Most of them have a form of enhancing the attack bonus, though. You might be able to match a magus, just, but the magus has spell-combat so he can buff on the fly, or throw in a true strike, or otherwise blast his enemy even if up-close and personal. The inquisitor gets bonuses to hit and damage from judgements (up to +5 to hit and +7 to damage), along with being able to make your weapon a bane weapon against whatever it is you're fighting. Bard gets to self-buff as well, with spells and bardic performance. Plus, all these are spell-casters that can throw in their 2/3 casting to buff or attack the enemy.
Being able to beat a non-combat character is easy. Being able to match a combat character is where you need to be if you are essentially running a combat character.
-as for offence being defense, that's assuming you can dispatch EVERYONE you're dealing with, since without defenses they'll turn you into a fine red paste when their allies urn rolls around. I do understand that a dead enemy deals no damage, but if they have friends you need to worry about them after your turn is up.
I'm not saying folks should turtle up, just that having respectable AC/saves can save your life, which is quite helpful for continued survival.
I agree, it's a balancing act. The problem many monks have is that they can have brilliant defences, but still struggle because they cannot kill the enemy before he kills them or kill their party.
Also, there are different tactics for different foes - if there are a lot of enemies, they are likely to be less powerful. For the standard two-handed fighter/barbarian/paladin Great Cleave usually solves this problem, for the monk it's his multiple attacks. But less powerful foes are not the issue, usually, it's the more powerful enemies that are your measure.
I'm looking over sensei now--honestly i'd never paid much attention to the archetype before now.
Relevant point here is the sensei has a bardic performance-type ability so he can actually self-buff his attacks.
-i resent your insinuation that a monk who wears a shirt is no longer a monk.
I don't mean to cause offence, but you DID say you wanted to make the archetypical monk, the unarmed martial artist who is by implication unarmoured as well. Otherwise why not just be a sohei?
true it doesnt adhere to people's mental image of an unarmored shaolin monk who goes flying around kicking people in the face, but monks are hard-pressed to do that in the system anyway (because if one is mobile, they cant do damage). the monk has to stand still do get any real work done, which clashes with their other abilities--they could work so much better with something like the mobile fighter's 'Rapid Attack' ability, but that's not currently within the scope of the system. there have also historically been armored monks, but that's irrelevant here.
This is my point: monks have to be not-monks to be any good, ie wear armour, or carry odd weapons, and even then they are not brilliant, just slightly less sucky.
Monk AC generally doesnt catch up or pass armored AC until high level and REALLY high stats. The chain shirt keeps him covered without a buff round--which requires seven and a half times the price for a wand (that will eventually run out) of said buff, and either casting it yourself with UMD, or begging it off a party caster, which spends actions of theirs they could use more effectively. until this build gains fast movement at... 6th? he loses absolutely nothing by doing so. why shouldn't he wear it at that point, beyond aesthetics?
I disagree, I have generally found that monks can get out in front with AC right at the start, and can stay there. The only monk who struggles with AC is a monk trying to inflict damage at low level by pumping strength at the expense of wisdom and dexterity.
which is a shame really--the smaller classes simply dont measure up most of the time (to which people complain their class is underpowered), or completely blow the fighter out of the water (which leads to an argument over invalidating the fighter).
What smaller classes? the combat classes measure well against the fighter, the 2/3 casters are weaker at fighting but hey, they have casting and they usually have some abilities that boost them, back up.
the fighter is DESIGNED to spit damage and very little else. comparing classes that can do so much more in other areas to that is bound for "disappointment" that they cant reach the fighter's freakish damage--except for the crazy optimized builds floating about that exclude all else but damage.
The fighter is actually the third weakest class in the game, by average ratings, with only the monk and rogue weaker. This is because while he can kick out hits and damage, he can't do much else and only has one good save. As for his "freakish" damage, the barbarian matches him easily when raging and the smiting paladin easily surpasses him - so in fact does a ranger against his most favoured enemy, but that's a rarer case. Anyway, the OTHER full BAB combat classes measure well against the fighter...and in fact a lot of the 3/4 BAB 2/3 casters can get onto the same playing field - so that's the mark to aim for, IMHO.
I'll add, this is not necessarily about matching the fighter's DPR, although any combat class needs decent DPR. It's about hitting, because if the monk cannot hit, he can't do much of anything. But if he can hit, he can apply a stunning fist, or a maneuver.
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I find it very hard to believe that a fighter 20 is less accurate than a rogue/duelist. Full BAB plus weapon training means the fighter will have +8 to hit over the duelist, assuming ability scores and enhancement bonuses are the same.Why so much hate on the rogue? I've already built a rogue 10 duelist 10 that beats the living hell out of a fighter at 20. The fighter just won't hit. (Unless He is purely built for maneuvers)
That aside. I never try to make the Monk a boxer. It never works out well.
heres my duelist rogue 10/ duelist 10 (scout archetype)
stats + level increases, enhancements, and inheret bonuses
Str: 18
Dex: 32
Con: 18
Int: 24 (start with 13/14)
Wis: 20
Cha: 14
Feats, in order
1- combat exp, improved unarmed strike
2- finesse rogue
3-TWF
4- combat trick (crane style)
5- dodge
6- weapon training (some debat about swapping this with combat trick)
7- mobility
8- offensive defense
9- shadowstrike
10- crippling strike
11 (duelist)- crane wing
12 (parry ect)
13- defensive combat training
15- crane riposte
17- spring attack
19- iron will (or lunge)
+5 speed,agile, keen rapier
+5 dagger (for parrying when he doesn't move)
+5 cloak of res
+5 ring of prot
+5 ammy of nat armor
belt of phy perfection +6
headband of.. er, name escapes me +6 (all)
book of dex +4
book of Int +4 (or two, can't remember off the top of my head)
boots of haste
+5 (or +3, depending) Celestial armor
UMD- wand of shield
lets look at the stats
with Rapier (as only weapon you will be attacking with)
17 BaB
+5 enhance
+11 dex
+1 wep focus
so, only a +34-35 base to hit, not amazing, but. each hit does 1d6+5d6+28ish damage as well as applying -2 str, (and potentially more on a crit!)
so full attack is 34/34/29/24 meh. not bad, not good, NOW
defense
10+11(armor)+ 8 (dex) + 1 (dodge) +5 (nat armor) +5 (deflection) +6 (duelist int bonus) + 3 (duelist dodge) +2 (fighting defensively)
so a base AC of 50-52. ok, so you move and provoke AoO that is now a 60 ac vs them mobility +4 and duelist acrobatic charge +4 (yes, they stack)
OR, lets say you don't move. 52 ac. you sneak attack and hit (you should if you charged + haste) add 5 ac for offensive defense. 57. 57 AC + 1 deflect and possibly another.
now. add wand of shield for +4. you now have 55-56 base AC, add offensive defense = 60-61 AC. have fun hitting that with your ~+42-43? attacks. if you are a two handed fighter or anything NOT using a shield, have fun keeping me from hitting you and subtracting your to hit and damage each turn.
(if you spot anything wrong let me know! im only level 8 with this guy in game atm and so far so good and fun!)
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I believe the strongest martial melee monk is something like martial artist with a temple sword. He can penetrate more DRs, take fighter only feats, and wear an amulet of natural armor. He can also take barbarian levels.
Generic Quinggong can do the same sort of temple sword build if you like ki powers.
your assessment of the Sensei is just flat out wrong. it is one of the best monk archetypes.
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I would avoid Sensei. It's an insult. Compare it to Evangelist: Scaling fists aren't as good as a good favored weapon, ki is worth maybe ranger-like casting at most, and wis to hit is nice, but not really better than the whole domain package. The armor bonus is just compensation for the lack of armor. And the Sensei still only gets half as many rounds of buffing. Monk lovers, the developers aren't laughing with you.
And hey, the Evangelist can still get wis to hit by taking Guided Hand.
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Perhaps "mop the floor" was indeed a brash statement. Though getting a fighters AC to 53 without a shield seems quite a feat. Even with armor training. Would actually quite like to see that.
Yes 1-3 was a rather rough time for this character but I had plenty of flanking opputnities so it was mitigated after 4 it started coming into its own.
They way u see it many (duelist) type fighters fought with a main gouache for parrying and disarming/ wep breaking. As long as I dont make an "attack" with it by RAW its legal untill amended.
The character type is certinally more of a defensive one. With great debuffing and decent damage potential.
As said. All builds have weakness. Maneuvers are one of this ones.
Fortification armor could cause a problem. Though. One I have been working on. thankfully my DM places a high emphasis on skills. Allows spellcraft checks to determine the formula for the armor and to figure out where its not "protected" not easy DCs. But hey. lol. A more convential method to get around it but eh.