I did in a later post. Lions and Wolves max out at 42 strength while a bear gets up to 44 strength.
Cool, I was just checking. :)
Seriously though, it seems like you could easily run a party of just druids from 1-20.
For what mechanical reason do you choose not to play a druid?
There are several classes that you can have a full party of without much issue. Bards, Clerics, and Druids are all good examples. Most any of the 3/4 BAB classes that also have spellcasting could qualify. Rangers and Paladins can work pretty solidly too, because they have a lot of versatility in their ability to craft magic items and make use of scrolls and wands due to their spell lists, though the all-martial party is going to have the hardest time against high level encounters since it's hard to cut through tons and tons of enemies with lots of HP and better mobility.
A party of 4 PF clerics was the strongest party I've ever GMed for.
A party of druids would be very similar. They have all their bases covered as they can comfortably heal, tank, fight, buff, and blast, and they come with an expendable companion each. Their ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally I-IX makes them very versatile and capable of turning bad situations to their favor quickly. As full casters, they are ideal for creating magic items. With so many in the party, you should be able to get literally every member of the party capable of crafting magic items, which ensures you get what you want. By bumping your companion up to 3 Int, dumping ranks into Spellcraft, and giving them the Extra Traits feat you can pick up Alluring to get a caster level on your animal companion and let them enhance magic items as well. There's something amusing about the idea of a fox stirring a caldron.
The "but antimagic field" argument is pretty stupid. It's a spell that is available on very few spell lists, and on top of it most casters are very reluctant to cast it because it is centered on the caster and moves with the caster. That means they are shutting down their own magic,...
1) for the Anti-magic field, I would liek to point out to people that druids tend to have spells like Stone Shape prepared a lot and can use it to just make a box around the enemy. Yes, A-MF may stop magic, but once the box is made, it stays that way for as long as you need.
2) A party of druids actually works a bit better than a party of clerics because they are better specialists in most things. The problem people are having are trying to force a single druid to do eerything. But if you have a party of 4 druids, each one would be focused in a different thing. For instance, Druid #1 would be the "tank" and specc'd for martial combat (of which it is debateable as to who is stronger in combat the cleric or the druid), Druid #2 would be the battlefield controller (of which druid is one of the best BFC in the game), Druid #3 would be battlefield enabler (buffs and heals which they can do pretty well since the "animal only" spells work very well with a wildshaped druid), and Druid #4 would be the "scout" (again, druids work VERY well in this role with the ability to talk to pretty much everything and the ability to turn into a cat or dog).
1) for the Anti-magic field, I would liek to point out to people that druids tend to have spells like Stone Shape prepared a lot and can use it to just make a box around the enemy. Yes, A-MF may stop magic, but once the box is made, it stays that way for as long as you need.
2) A party of druids actually works a bit better than a party of clerics because they are better specialists in most things. The problem people are having are trying to force a single druid to do eerything. But if you have a party of 4 druids, each one would be focused in a different thing. For instance, Druid #1 would be the "tank" and specc'd for martial combat (of which it is debateable as to who is stronger in combat the cleric or the druid), Druid #2 would be the battlefield controller (of which druid is one of the best BFC in the game), Druid #3 would be battlefield enabler (buffs and heals which they can do pretty well since the "animal only" spells work very well with a wildshaped druid), and Druid #4 would be the "scout" (again, druids work VERY well in this role with the ability to talk to pretty much everything and the ability to turn into a cat or dog).1) for the Anti-magic field, I would liek to point out to people that druids tend to have spells like Stone Shape prepared a lot and can use it to just make a box around the enemy. Yes, A-MF may stop magic, but once the box is made, it stays that way for as long as you need.
2) A party of druids actually works a bit better than a party of clerics because they are better specialists in most things. The problem people are having are trying to force a single druid to do eerything. But if you have a party of 4 druids, each one would be focused in a different thing. For instance, Druid #1 would be the "tank" and specc'd for martial combat (of which it is debateable as to who is stronger in combat the cleric or the druid), Druid #2 would be the battlefield controller (of which druid is one of the best BFC in the game), Druid #3 would be battlefield enabler (buffs and heals which they can do pretty well since the "animal only" spells work very well with a wildshaped druid), and Druid #4 would be the "scout" (again, druids work VERY well in this role with the ability to talk to pretty much everything and the ability to turn into a cat or dog).
Agreed on pretty much all counts. Though there's also a certain strength in not specializing. In the case of the party of clerics, they specialized their skill points, but for the most part they were all built very similarly, spreading the burden of things across the party. As a result, they had few weaknesses. If their main person ran out of their combat spells, they could comfortably swap places with another member of the party. They also didn't have any obvious weak links as all of them had solid HP / AC / combat mods. So unlike in a traditional party where the bad guys get to your squishy and start chowing down, they were all fairly tough.
I agree that I think I'd want the druid party to specialize at least a bit though. That being said, literally every druid in the party could be a capable tank and DoT druid with a minimum investment of feats.
...1) for the Anti-magic field, I would liek to point out to people that druids tend to have spells like Stone Shape prepared a lot and can use it to just make a box around the enemy. Yes, A-MF may stop magic, but once the box is made, it stays that way for as long as you need.
2) A party of druids actually works a bit better than a party of clerics because they are better specialists in most things. The problem people are having are trying to force a single druid to do eerything. But if you have a party of 4 druids, each one would be focused in a different thing. For instance, Druid #1 would be the "tank" and specc'd for martial combat (of which it is debateable as to who is stronger in combat the cleric or the druid), Druid #2 would be the battlefield controller (of which druid is one of the best BFC in the game), Druid #3 would be battlefield enabler (buffs and heals which they can do pretty well since the "animal only" spells work very well with a wildshaped druid), and Druid #4 would be the "scout" (again, druids work VERY well in this role with the ability to talk to pretty much everything and the ability to turn into a cat or dog).1) for the Anti-magic field, I would liek to point out to people that druids tend to have spells like Stone Shape prepared a lot and can use it to just make a box around the enemy. Yes, A-MF may stop magic, but once the box is made, it stays that way for as long as you need.
2) A party of druids actually works a bit better than a party of clerics because they are better specialists in most things. The problem people are having are trying to force a single druid to do eerything. But if you have a party of 4 druids, each one would be focused in a different thing. For instance, Druid #1 would be the "tank" and specc'd for martial combat (of which it is debateable as to who is stronger in combat the cleric or the druid), Druid #2 would be the battlefield controller (of which druid is one of the best BFC in the game), Druid #3 would be battlefield
Very true.
The arguement of specialization is mainly in response to people talking about how a druid is nowhere near as effective as a martial while also trying to keep up with the wizard. If you look at the build that I linked earlier (Gahleena the Ooze), it shows druids can be VERY effective in melee if specialized in melee. But the funny thing is, as you pointed out, a specialized druid CAN STILL do the other jobs decently.
I would have to say the few thing a party of clerics most definetely has on a party of druids though is access to heal easily, easy access to restoration, better vs outsiders (of which druids have a harder time for sure), and access to spells that ressurect people a bit more... reliably (Reincarnation, while definetely funny and fun, is not quite as reliable as Ressurection or even raise dead)
I've found that generalist druid works out pretty well. With a whole party of them specialization can just come from what spells they prepared.
Druids are a powerful class, but I wouldn't describe them as better than every class, and I certainly wouldn't take a party of them over a balanced party. On the whole druids feels a lot like the inquisitor, in that they hard to go wrong with it, but they isn't likely to shatter things.
Druids are a powerful class, but I wouldn't describe them as better than every class, and I certainly wouldn't take a party of them over a balanced party. On the whole druids feels a lot like the inquisitor, in that they hard to go wrong with it, but they isn't likely to shatter things.
Oh you can fubar a druid. Someone in my group is playing a druid with 8 strength mounted combat feats, not natural spell, and weird archetypes that trade out useful class features. Is that druid still functional? Yes.
One of the biggest edges that the all-cleric party had was animate dead. Every one of the clerics was a cleric of Wee Jass (Lawful Neutral goddess of death and magic, from Grayhawk). Each one of the clerics could control CL * 4 HD worth of undead. They tended to favor skeletons. Most monstrous enemies were themselves treasure. They had a retinue of hobgoblin skeleton troops running around, later seized a hydra that they slew easily, later still an ettin, and so forth. Half of the encounters they went into they could have soloed purely with their undead.
With Bloody Skeletons being a thing, you can even recycle lost undead since they regenerate in 1 hour unless you slap their remains with some positive energy or holy water.
Dazing Spell helps a ton for druids who want to target Will saves. I've written a guide on blaster druids and why they are awesome, and Dazing spell plays a very large part in that. Nothing in the core game is immune to Dazing spell, and it's a solid way of tearing apart golems with the greatest of ease (launch a dazing effect on a no-SR spell and watch the golem shut down for a few rounds). In general, they will target either Reflex or Will with these.
Being divine casters, they also have something that wizards do not. Access to Incense of Meditation. Crafted yourself, especially if the party chips in, this stuff is reasonably priced at mid to high levels. When you burn it while preparing spells, it auto-maximizes all of your divine spells. That means maximized healing spells, maximized damaging spells, maximized summoning spells (always summon 5, 3, or 1 when you summon), etc.
Auto-maximizing your flame strike and fire storm is fun. Flame strike deals 1/2 divine damage that ignores resistances, and fire storm gives you 2 10 ft. fire spaces per level, each dealing up to 20d6 damage with 4d6 ignite damage each round thereafter. Maximizing these is fun. Slapping Dazing on them via a rod is cruel. Maximized elemental swarm is funny too in some cases.
If your eidolon is not out, you can't even begin to compare to a druid.It's great to be able to pull that out when needed, but a 5ft hallway will deny the summoner their main class feature if they decide to go all in.Wait a second, I think I have been playing summoners wrong. I didn't know 5ft corridors prevented me from using my Summon Monster___ SLA./sarcasm
On the contrary, summoners are extremely powerful even without their eidolon out. Summon Monster is one of the best spells out there, and they get it as a standard action SLA. They can easily get over 10 uses/day.
Even without their best class feature, they're extremely powerful. Damn I hate that class so much...
If your eidolon is not out, you can't even begin to compare to a druid.It's great to be able to pull that out when needed, but a 5ft hallway will deny the summoner their main class feature if they decide to go all in.Wait a second, I think I have been playing summoners wrong. I didn't know 5ft corridors prevented me from using my Summon Monster___ SLA./sarcasmOn the contrary, summoners are extremely powerful even without their eidolon out. Summon Monster is one of the best spells out there, and they get it as a standard action SLA. They can easily get over 10 uses/day.
Even without their best class feature, they're extremely powerful. Damn I hate that class so much...
But, unless they are a master summoner or (possbily) a First-Worlder, they can only have 1 Summon Monster active at a time. That greatly limits the usefulness of the ability, especially at higher levels when the monsters can be taken out in a hit or two.
Don't get me wrong, summoners are power casters, but not as broken as people think they are.
If your eidolon is not out, you can't even begin to compare to a druid.It's great to be able to pull that out when needed, but a 5ft hallway will deny the summoner their main class feature if they decide to go all in.Wait a second, I think I have been playing summoners wrong. I didn't know 5ft corridors prevented me from using my Summon Monster___ SLA./sarcasmOn the contrary, summoners are extremely powerful even without their eidolon out. Summon Monster is one of the best spells out there, and they get it as a standard action SLA. They can easily get over 10 uses/day.
Even without their best class feature, they're extremely powerful. Damn I hate that class so much...
But, unless they are a master summoner or (possbily) a First-Worlder, they can only have 1 Summon Monster active at a time. That greatly limits the usefulness of the ability, especially at higher levels when the monsters can be taken out in a hit or two.
Don't get me wrong, summoners are power casters, but not as broken as people think they are.
I have no issues with summoners due to their SLA or eidolon. I hate their spell list, and the Paizo devs said in hindsight the spell list was a mistake. I allow Summoners in my games, but their spell list and spell progression is greatly altered. No more do they get spells at earlier levels than the core casters, and their progression is taken up to a 9th level progression to actually fit the spells they have that are thematically appropriate.
However, most of their illusion, transmutation, and enchantment spells just strait up got the axe. No simulacrums for j00.
If your eidolon is not out, you can't even begin to compare to a druid.It's great to be able to pull that out when needed, but a 5ft hallway will deny the summoner their main class feature if they decide to go all in.Wait a second, I think I have been playing summoners wrong. I didn't know 5ft corridors prevented me from using my Summon Monster___ SLA./sarcasmOn the contrary, summoners are extremely powerful even without their eidolon out. Summon Monster is one of the best spells out there, and they get it as a standard action SLA. They can easily get over 10 uses/day.
Even without their best class feature, they're extremely powerful. Damn I hate that class so much...
But, unless they are a master summoner or (possbily) a First-Worlder, they can only have 1 Summon Monster active at a time. That greatly limits the usefulness of the ability, especially at higher levels when the monsters can be taken out in a hit or two.
Don't get me wrong, summoners are power casters, but not as broken as people think they are.
I have no issues with summoners due to their SLA or eidolon. I hate their spell list, and the Paizo devs said in hindsight the spell list was a mistake. I allow Summoners in my games, but their spell list and spell progression is greatly altered. No more do they get spells at earlier levels than the core casters, and their progression is taken up to a 9th level progression to actually fit the spells they have that are thematically appropriate.
However, most of their illusion, transmutation, and enchantment spells just strait up got the axe. No simulacrums for j00.
Oh yeah. Especially when it comes to crafting things. Being abel to buy wnads that should never be was a huge mistake xD.
Oh yeah. Especially when it comes to crafting things. Being abel to buy wnads that should never be was a huge mistake xD.
In our worlds there is no reason for a spont caster to grab craft wand. So this doesn't come up.
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However, most of their illusion, transmutation, and enchantment spells just strait up got the axe. No simulacrums for j00.
Oh god yes. Summoners getting greater invisibility before bards and dominate monster, which bards don't even get, is just dumb.
Summoners are broken, but they are still less powerful than Druids.
Summoners are broken not because they are powerful, but because they resemble a well balanced homebrew class. Creative, interesting mechanics, with exceptions that break normal themes in the rules, even considering the exceptions an individual class can have.
I wouldn't say a Summoner is by any stretch of the imagination OP. (Although from lvls 1-5 I would say a synthesis is pretty OP)
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There are no planes to shift to in Middle Earth and besides, Gandalf is a druid. Or possibly a very high level 1st edition bard. He casts Fire Seeds, which is a druid only spell, in The Hobbit.Eagles can Plane Shift ?That's kind of it in a nutshell. Getafix* says "fly away" and "earth glide," while Gandalf suggests "Teleport" "Plane Shift," or "Ethereal Jaunt." Oh, or "fly away" or "earth glide" if he's slumming.Gandalf has one solution for everything.** spoiler omitted **
And then summons giant eagles to solve the problem. See? Eagles are his solution.
I can see in the book that the druid have alot of cool powers. But i have never seen a druid that was better at any single role than the specialists. So i party of druids sounds fun and powerfull to me but not better than Many other partyes
I think the druid is one of the better classes. They have flavor, options and power i like that.
To the OP can you post the druid you are playing atm. And is it possibly that you are playing with a party of monks and rogues?
Edit spelling and a bit more.
I can see in the book that the druid have alot of cool powers. But i have never seen a druid that was better at any single role than the specialists. So i party of druids sounds fun and powerfull to me but not better than Many other partyes
I think the druid is one of the better classes. They have flavor, options and power i like that.
To the OP can you post the druid you are playing atm. And is it possibly that you are playing with a party of monks and rogues?
Edit spelling and a bit more.
Look at my prior posts.
If you have 4 druids, they would not all be casting the same spell. Each one would focus on a certain facet to fill a role. For instance a tank could be built like this:
A rogue could easily be replaced with a druid putting points into "scout" skills and preparing spells like Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants, Tree Walk, Treeshape, ect.
A battlefield controller would prepare spells like Entangle, Obscuring Mist, Stone Shape, and Anti-life shell.
The enabler would prepare spells like Barkskin, Magic Fang, and other buff spells.
Each role would be a dynamically different build, but the strength of the druid is the ability to have ALL of these options available to you with reletive ease.
There are no planes to shift to in Middle Earth and besides, Gandalf is a druid. Or possibly a very high level 1st edition bard. He casts Fire Seeds, which is a druid only spell, in The Hobbit.Eagles can Plane Shift ?That's kind of it in a nutshell. Getafix* says "fly away" and "earth glide," while Gandalf suggests "Teleport" "Plane Shift," or "Ethereal Jaunt." Oh, or "fly away" or "earth glide" if he's slumming.Gandalf has one solution for everything.** spoiler omitted **
Gandalf is a high CR outsider with a lot of SLAs.
Would 4 Druids make a better party then the core 4 of Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric? Probably, because your replacing Fighter and Rogue with Druids which can outfight, outskill and outspell those classes (even if some of the outskilling of the Rogue comes from, you guessed it, magic.)
However, a party of 4 Druids would be no match for a party of 4 Half-Elf (or Half-Elf equivalent) Lunar Oracles. Maybe at Level 3 and 5 the Druids would pull ahead some and even have the advtantage of a more diverse spell selection between levels 1-5, but after level 6, the Druid is going to be outclassed and after level 11, the Oracles are just about the best class you can play, with full and spontaneous access to both the Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard lists, an ability that gets them their casting stat to AC and a weak save, immediate action forced rerolls (1 BBEG versus 1 save or die and 3 rerolls seems solid), a touch attack rage that can be given to enemy casters, and at level 20 the incredibly hard to come by immunity to mind-affecting and of course having a Seeker archetype gets you trapfinding, including disabling magical traps...
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Lunar Oracles ... the Oracles are just about the best class you can play, with full and spontaneous access to both the Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard lists, an ability that gets them their casting stat to AC and a weak save, immediate action forced rerolls (1 BBEG versus 1 save or die and 3 rerolls seems solid), a touch attack rage that can be given to enemy casters, and at level 20 the incredibly hard to come by immunity to mind-affecting and of course having a Seeker archetype gets you trapfinding, including disabling magical traps...
I see that Lunar Oracle looks like a fun and effective build, but I'm not seeing all those things. Please explain. Here were the ones I could identify:
Mantle of Moonlight (Su) - Hilarious no-save rage debuff vs casters
Prophetic Armor - Big bump to save & AC
Dual-cursed lunar oracle - for Misfortune forcing BBEG to reroll saves
**** My favorite save-or-suck spell to combine with Misfortune is 1st level Command to 'Approach Me' from behind a gauntlet of martial PCs, who will all get AoOs ... ****
Where do you get access to the arcane spell list without multi-classing?
You didn't mention the option of having a full animal companion.
Lunar Oracles ... the Oracles are just about the best class you can play, with full and spontaneous access to both the Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard lists, an ability that gets them their casting stat to AC and a weak save, immediate action forced rerolls (1 BBEG versus 1 save or die and 3 rerolls seems solid), a touch attack rage that can be given to enemy casters, and at level 20 the incredibly hard to come by immunity to mind-affecting and of course having a Seeker archetype gets you trapfinding, including disabling magical traps...I see that Lunar Oracle looks like a fun and effective build, but I'm not seeing all those things. Please explain. Here were the ones I could identify:
Mantle of Moonlight (Su) - Hilarious no-save rage debuff vs casters
Prophetic Armor - Big bump to save & AC
Dual-cursed lunar oracle - for Misfortune forcing BBEG to reroll saves
**** My favorite save-or-suck spell to combine with Misfortune is 1st level Command to 'Approach Me' from behind a gauntlet of martial PCs, who will all get AoOs ... ****Where do you get access to the arcane spell list without multi-classing?
You didn't mention the option of having a full animal companion.
Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), so that at 11th Level you can use Paragon Surge to acquire Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane and from there select New Arcana to cherry pick the Arcane spell you need at a given moment. I didn't forget the animal companion its just that's something druids have to, but I should mention that Oracles can fast advance their Animal Companions for better than full animal companion with their favored class bonus if they are Aasimars.
I feel like a party of Clerics has a bit more survivability =P
Agreed. Barring the hypothetical anti-magic field, a party of clerics with the right domains has the super powered buffs to own an opponent on the front side of a battle, and usually more healing power than druids to survive the backside of a battle.
Druids are a great class for playing solo campaigns (so are many clerics - trust me, we've done both) without too much tweaking for the specific character (compared to a fighter, for instance, which would require a lot more tweaking to go solo), and they are a super utility class that can really help any party succeed by mixing martial attacks with all sorts of elemental goodies. But being great at helping parties succeed does not "objectively" make druids better than all other classes.
I feel like a party of Clerics has a bit more survivability =PAgreed. Barring the hypothetical anti-magic field, a party of clerics with the right domains has the super powered buffs to own an opponent on the front side of a battle, and usually more healing power than druids to survive the backside of a battle.
I think it takes a lot of buffs before you are at what wildshape provides as an all day long bonus.
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Seriously though, it seems like you could easily run a party of just druids from 1-20.
For what mechanical reason do you choose not to play a druid?
Because I don't want to have a class feature that removes all of my other class features.
Because I want to cast arcane magic instead of divine magic.
Because I want more skill ranks.
Because I want a mechanical use for a high Intelligence other than skill ranks/checks.
Because I want to channel energy.
Because I want to Sneak Attack.
Because I want to have more feats than your average PC.
Because I want to rage.
Because I want to Smite Evil.
Because I want to summon things other than beatsticks.
Because I want to have a full BAB.
Because I want a good Reflex save.
** spoiler omitted **Seriously though, it seems like you could easily run a party of just druids from 1-20.
For what mechanical reason do you choose not to play a druid?
Why is any of that mechanically better than what the druid brings to the table?
Why is any of that mechanically better than what the druid brings to the table?It isn't inherently better, its a list of things I may want on a character that I could not obtain by playing a druid, and thus mechanical reasons to not play one.
That's all well and good, but that sounds to me less like a mechanical reason and more like a personal reason. Because mechanical reasons can be evaluated and what not.
Why is any of that mechanically better than what the druid brings to the table?It isn't inherently better, its a list of things I may want on a character that I could not obtain by playing a druid, and thus mechanical reasons to not play one.
Wanting specific mechanics is not the mechanical reason I was looking for. I mean the title is "objectively better"
They're bad at attacking will saves. Come to that they're not too hot at attacking fortitude saves, though they don't come up completely empty.
They can't provide the full range of condition removal a cleric can.
They're bad at diplomacy.
They're lousy buffers.
They're a strong class, but witches and wizards and clerics and bards and conversion inquisition inquisitors can do important things they can't just like they in turn can do things those classes can't.
And not even the misread-eidolon-rules summoner archetype approaches the ridiculous what-in-the-abyss-were-they-thinking Limburger mystery half-elf oracle.
I'm not sure even persistent divine metamagic with nightsticks matches the absurd brokenness of paragon surge with expanded arcana and eldritch heritage.
Diplomacy: Not that hard to be good at that, just ahve a good Cha (which synergizes with the Druid's Animal Empathy ability and a good skill for a "scout" druid)
Buffer: In a normal party, yes. But in an all druid party they are actually faily powerful. Why? because their "animal spells" tend to work on a wild-shaped druid... and their pets.
They're bad at attacking will saves. Come to that they're not too hot at attacking fortitude saves, though they don't come up completely empty.
They can't provide the full range of condition removal a cleric can.
They're bad at diplomacy.
They're lousy buffers.
They're a strong class, but witches and wizards and clerics and bards and conversion inquisition inquisitors can do important things they can't just like they in turn can do things those classes can't.
And not even the misread-eidolon-rules summoner archetype approaches the ridiculous what-in-the-abyss-were-they-thinking Limburger mystery half-elf oracle.
I'm not sure even persistent divine metamagic with nightsticks matches the absurd brokenness of paragon surge with expanded arcana and eldritch heritage.
Lots of great mechanical reason to play a Half-Elf Lunar Oracle! Lie to anyone! Negotiate better than Roger. Cast all the spells, remove all the conditions, mug the universe for whatever feat you need at the moment (assuming you meet the prereqs), fast advance your animal companion to make the Druid feel bad, be immune to Cthulhu's madness, and then of course punch out Cthulhu with your phenomenal cosmic power that would make pretty much any story's hero look pathetic. Oh and Circlet of Persuasion buffs your concentration checks and your initiative, because you took Noble Scion... right?
Also, those would be mechanical reason to not play a Druid.
They're bad at attacking will saves. Come to that they're not too hot at attacking fortitude saves, though they don't come up completely empty.
They can't provide the full range of condition removal a cleric can.
They're bad at diplomacy.
They're lousy buffers.
They're a strong class, but witches and wizards and clerics and bards and conversion inquisition inquisitors can do important things they can't just like they in turn can do things those classes can't.
And not even the misread-eidolon-rules summoner archetype approaches the ridiculous what-in-the-abyss-were-they-thinking Limburger mystery half-elf oracle.
I'm not sure even persistent divine metamagic with nightsticks matches the absurd brokenness of paragon surge with expanded arcana and eldritch heritage.
Meh will saves.
Who needs that? That's what NPCs are for.
"Hostile Negotiations"
BS. Druids are great Buffers for other druids... Because they don't need haste
Lunar oracles are from: Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon (PFRPG)
Why does it seem like OP-ish things like Cornugon smash, Dervish Dance, Blood money, and this come from companion/setting specific sources?
Still, I think Paizo is doing a great job keeping things balanced if lunar oracle is the worst thing you run across (lol once per day beast wildshape, the free AC pet grinds my gears though...)
FYI: As cool as the paragon surge trick is, it's not really good for combat because it eats up 3rd level slots and standard actions.
They're bad at attacking will saves. Come to that they're not too hot at attacking fortitude saves, though they don't come up completely empty.
They can't provide the full range of condition removal a cleric can.
They're bad at diplomacy.
They're lousy buffers.
They're a strong class, but witches and wizards and clerics and bards and conversion inquisition inquisitors can do important things they can't just like they in turn can do things those classes can't.
And not even the misread-eidolon-rules summoner archetype approaches the ridiculous what-in-the-abyss-were-they-thinking Limburger mystery half-elf oracle.
I'm not sure even persistent divine metamagic with nightsticks matches the absurd brokenness of paragon surge with expanded arcana and eldritch heritage.
Lots of great mechanical reason to play a Half-Elf Lunar Oracle! Lie to anyone! Negotiate better than Roger. Cast all the spells, remove all the conditions, mug the universe for whatever feat you need at the moment (assuming you meet the prereqs), fast advance your animal companion to make the Druid feel bad, be immune to Cthulhu's madness, and then of course punch out Cthulhu with your phenomenal cosmic power that would make pretty much any story's hero look pathetic. Oh and Circlet of Persuasion buffs your concentration checks and your initiative, because you took Noble Scion... right?
Also, those would be mechanical reason to not play a Druid.
Yeah that crazy build heh.
Lunar oracles are from: Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon (PFRPG)
Why does it seem like OP-ish things like Cornugon smash, Dervish Dance, Blood money, and this come from companion/setting specific sources?
Still, I think Paizo is doing a great job keeping things balanced if lunar oracle is the worst thing you run across (lol once per day beast wildshape, the free AC pet grinds my gears though...)
FYI: As cool as the paragon surge trick is, it's not really good for combat because it eats up 3rd level slots and standard actions.
Swift actions... definitely swift actions and I can think of a few combat uses, but really yes the main benefit is its overwhelming out of combat advantages. And honestly, its a pretty great use of a 3rd level slot. Honestly the Beast Shape thing is minor, since you can always just grab the spell and cast it if you need it more then your daily use, though obviously the Su version is superior.
Swift actions... definitely swift actions and I can think of a few combat uses, but really yes the main benefit is its overwhelming out of combat advantages. And honestly, its a pretty great use of a 3rd level slot. Honestly the Beast Shape thing is minor, since you can always just grab the spell and cast it if you need it more then your daily use, though obviously the Su version is superior.Lunar oracles are from: Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon (PFRPG)
Why does it seem like OP-ish things like Cornugon smash, Dervish Dance, Blood money, and this come from companion/setting specific sources?
Still, I think Paizo is doing a great job keeping things balanced if lunar oracle is the worst thing you run across (lol once per day beast wildshape, the free AC pet grinds my gears though...)
FYI: As cool as the paragon surge trick is, it's not really good for combat because it eats up 3rd level slots and standard actions.
Ah no natural spell for either of those.
Well its drawbacks like that make it balanced!
Well its drawbacks like that make it balanced!
Natural spell is what makes the druids wildshaping good and the long duration nice.
Oracle with spont-ALL SPELLS is very powerful and epitomizes the Schrodinger wizard. BUT they still don't have access to druid-only spells(at druid early levels) and still have to burn a lot of slots on self buffing to not be squishy with their lack of good wildshaping. Shapechange equalizes this issue at 17+, so I would say a half-elf lunar oracle pulls ahead by then.
Still it's not the oracle class, but one particular mystery feat race spell combo.
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Witch class can be seen as hilariously powerful, since even without the fabled slumber hex and its unique ability to change the game world., you are still one of the strongest debuffers in the game, with a bunch of debuff spells and hex options. And you can be one of the best buffers at the same time. And a 2nd class healer [that I think is about as good as a druid. Maybe a little worse due to less HP/AC]. It doesn't have the insane versatility as a druid, and an all witch party is bound to fail in low-level combat situations, but I'd take a witch in the party over a druid any minute of almost any day.
You do suffer from low-level arcane caster syndrome, but you have tricks that a lot of low-level arcane casters don't have, known as hexes. You have things like auto-success diplomacy that can be used in conjunction with a diplomacy check, free brew potion feat, free SU Cure X Wounds once per target per day, and a bunch of other cool things.
I would say that, due to the massive increase in power witches get at mid-level gameplay that continues to increase later, they are at least as strong as druids. Of course, I have always seen witches as arcane druids [full prepared arcane caster with weird tricks and a custom spell list that combined make it vastly different compared to its other full arcane counterpart], so take that as you will.
So in short:Why not play a druid? Because I am going to play a witch.
Witches are still squishy like all the other arcane casters.
And low-level arcane caster syndrome is pretty important.
Additionally, it should be noted that Witches are good against SINGLE TARGETS. When up against a mob druids, alchemists, Heaven's Oracles, and Wizards make up the best battlefield controllers.
Also druids are good against single targets too like most classes that can smash things.