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Does Greater Feint deny the opponent of their Dex Bonus to AC against all attacks made against them or only the Feinter's?
Does it allow for the Feinter to make ranged attacks against the feinted target? Feint says that it only applies to melee attacks, does the benefit of the feat change that?
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This has come up before - pretty certain that it's in the FAQ queue. But marking again.
This has come up before - pretty certain that it's in the FAQ queue. But marking again.
Holy cow I looked at your thread on it and it said Answered in FAQ but I wasn't able to find it and I searched through the whole thing heh.
That seems rather....blegh.
I couldn't find any mention of feinting in the whole faq.
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The problem with Greater Feint is the wording of the feat is vague in comparison to the wording of the Feint rules on page 201 of the CRB. According to the CRB, the rules for Feint (in part) are as follows:
"Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn."
The effect of the successful feint action is what is key. The target of the successful feint loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) to the player's next melee attack. This effect does not cause the target to lose his Dexterity bonus to anything other than AC, nor does it allow the player's allies to benefit from the target's potentially lower AC. The feint effect also only works against the next melee (not ranged) attack by the player which must be done before the end of the player's next turn.
Now, on page 125 of the CRB we have the text for the Greater Feint feat.
"Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
There are a lot of problems with the wording of this feat that are the cause for all of the disagreement concerning how this feat is supposed to work.
1. Dex bonus. As written, the Greater Feint feat omits the "Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)" text in favor of the shorter "Dexterity bonus". I can only assume this is due to word count restrictions for the book. This incomplete wording causes some players to assume that the target's entire Dexterity bonus is removed due to the feint, encompassing not only AC, but Reflex save, skills, Weapon Finesse, etc. I contend that because the wording references the Feint rules ("Whenever you use feint") that the rule on page 201 of the CRB is the overriding authority and the target loses "his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)". This word count omission is further confirmed by the text after the "Normal" heading which incorrectly describes the effect of a normal feint.
2. Melee vs. Ranged. As written, the Greater Feint feat also omits any reference to melee attack. I believe this is once again a word count issue that the writers had to work around. As before, it is necessary to refer to the original rule on Feint (referenced by Greater Feint) which clearly states "the next melee attack you make against the target". Both the "Benefit" and "Normal" text drop the reference to melee but the fact that they are both referring to the core rule for Feint I contend that the omission is simply to save words and is in no way meant to confer the feint effect to ranged attacks.
3. Self Only or Allies. Now here is the really contentious part :) Most people assume that due to the duration of Greater Feint that it must apply to all allies that attack the target in addition to the player that did the feint. I tend to believe that the feat is still Self Only and the duration simply allows for any additional attacks the feinting player makes before his next turn (AoOs etc.). Please, let me explain.
The feint action already allows for a duration that extends through the player's next turn. The phrase "the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn." On or before your next turn means you can delay your next attack until your next turn and still reap the benefit of feint. So we can already feint and deny a target its Dexterity bonus to AC for a full turn and it is Self Only. The target is debuffed until your next melee attack or until the end of your next turn. It does not help allies in any manner.
Now, add in Greater Feint complete with it's abbreviated word count. The text in question is "he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn". People assume that because the target is losing it's bonus for a full turn that it applies to all allies attacking the target. I have shown above that the standard feint actually causes the target to lose it's Dexterity bonus to AC for longer (until the end of your next turn if you do not make a melee attack) without conferring that effect for allies attacking the target. So if the assumption that because the effect is in play for a full turn then all allies can benefit then why take any of the feint feats at all? Have your Rogue or Bard or whatever feint as a standard action and then hold off on doing another attack until his next turn. Everyone else then gets to hit the poor sap with no Dexterity bonus to AC. I do not think that is the way it is intended or supposed to work.
So why take Greater Feint if it doesn't benefit the party? Greater Feint lets you make multiple attacks against a feinted target until the beginning of your next turn. Not only do you get your next attack, you get the benefit to any and all AoOs you can make until your next turn. If you allow Ultimate Combat in your game you can feint as a swift action and with Greater Feint gain the benefit on your iterative attacks as well. Allowing a standard feint or Greater Feint to be used by all allies is simply too powerful for the feat. As a matter of fact, there is a feat that specifically allows for the feint effect to be conferred to an ally (Feint Partner).
I think citing all those rules from feint is relatively meaningless since Feats are supposed to break the norm.
So we can already feint and deny a target its Dexterity bonus to AC for a full turn and it is Self Only. The target is debuffed until your next melee attack or until the end of your next turn. It does not help allies in any manner.
Now, add in Greater Feint complete with it's abbreviated word count. The text in question is "he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn". People assume that because the target is losing it's bonus for a full turn that it applies to all allies attacking the target. I have shown above that the standard feint actually causes the target to lose it's Dexterity bonus to AC for longer (until the end of your next turn if you do not make a melee attack) without conferring that effect for allies attacking the target. So if the assumption that because the effect is in play for a full turn then all allies can benefit then why take any of the feint feats at all? Have your Rogue or Bard or whatever feint as a standard action and then hold off on doing another attack until his next turn. Everyone else then gets to hit the poor sap with no Dexterity bonus to AC. I do not think that is the way it is intended or supposed to work.
People don't assume that because the "target is losing it's bonus for a full turn that it applies to all allies attacking the target." That isn't the line of logic those folks are following.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
That can be read as "he loses his dex bonus until the beginning of your next turn." That can exist on its own due to the "in addition" wording of the text. It lacks the "against your melee attacks," phrasing for there to be any certainty on the matter. Because it lacks that phrase, we can infer that the target just loses his dexterity bonus to AC till his next turn, but since it doesn't have the "against your melee attacks" phrase it could be read as losing it to all attackers.
Actually, the wording of Greater Feint negates your ability to wait a round in order to take your next attack. It specifically states "until the start of your next turn" which means "at the start of your next initiative the opponent regains Dexterity."
So sure, you can make two Feints against different opponents. It means nothing because next round both opponents regain their dexterity at the start of your combat round. So you wasted your feint for nothing by trying to feint two opponents.
So then. If Greater Feint does not allow you to feint on the next round then what purpose is there for the opponent not to have a dexterity modifier in regards to the feinting opponent for that round? Is Greater Feint solely an attack meant to negate Weapon Finesse? Or maybe to allow for Sneak Attack Attacks of Opportunity?
That seems to be a waste of a feat. It makes Greater Feint pretty much useless.
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I quoted the rules because the wording of the rules is the point of issue. If I failed to quote the rules people will complain that I didn't quote. Damned if I do, damned if I don't :)
My contention is that the "in addition" text is simply stating that you get the feint effect on your next melee attack as well as any other melee attacks you make until the beginning of your next turn. Greater Feint simply allows you to make more attacks for the same feint action. The fact that the text omits certain words is not (IMO) to increase the functionality of the feat but simply to conserve word count which any Paizo author will tell you is a huge deal with any publication they produce.
The wording could also be interpreted as to allow OTHER people to take advantage of the lack of Dexterity modifier.
Greater Feint is an expansion of prerequisites. It does not mean it's identical to the previous Feats. The lack of specificity concerning WHO can take advantage of the Feint is suggestive ANYONE can take advantage of it. The Feint was so effective that the target is now at a disadvantage to ANY and EVERY attack up 'til the next round action by the Feinting individual.
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Greater Feint (and Feint) only removes the target's Dexterity bonus to AC. It will have no effect on Weapon Finesse, Reflex Saves, or Skill Checks. Great Feint, as I see it, simply allows you to make additional melee attacks against a target with no Dex bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn. If you play CRB only then you can get AoOs (Opportunist comes to mind). If you allow UC then you can get AoOs and iterative attacks (if you take feats to allow for swift feinting). Parry/Riposte, Outflank, Paired Opportunists, etc) are also good ways to get additional attacks before the start of your next turn.
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The wording could also be interpreted as to allow OTHER people to take advantage of the lack of Dexterity modifier.
Greater Feint is an expansion of prerequisites. It does not mean it's identical to the previous Feats. The lack of specificity concerning WHO can take advantage of the Feint is suggestive ANYONE can take advantage of it. The Feint was so effective that the target is now at a disadvantage to ANY and EVERY attack up 'til the next round action by the Feinting individual.
But you are adding words where they do not exist. Every text for feint and Greater Feint refer specifically to "you" and "your". There is no such wording in any of the text that uses the words "any" or "all"
Specific wording: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
It does not state Dexterity Bonus for armor only. It also does not specify that the loss of dexterity is for you only.
Mind you, Greater Feint existed before the Teamwork Feats came about. Thus it can exist outside of Teamwork Feats that require multiple shared Feats to tag-team an enemy with Feints. It is a third-tier Feat (while the Teamwork Feint has no prerequisite).
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As I stated in my original post, the text for Greater Feint is missing certain words that are implied from the rules governing Feint. I surmise that these words are omitted due to word count restraints and that the reader should refer to the Feint rules on page 201 of the CRB for clarification. Specifically, Greater Feint refers to "Whenever you use feint" which should refer the reader to the Feint rules. Also, the text list after "Normal" (how feint normally works) incorrectly omits the "Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)" and "next melee attack" wording. I believe that the rules governing Feint in the CRB override the errors of omission in the feat text. Yes, I understand that feats change how rules work, but when the feat description directly references the rule and then incorrectly states the rule under the "Normal" heading then either the author made a careless mistake or text was removed to save word count. In either case, refer to the core rule for how the feat applies.
Although it is a weak argument, the flavor text for the feat seems to suggest it is Self Only ("You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.")
I disagree. An Overreaction is above and beyond the norm. Its not much of an overreaction if its over in the time you make your attacks. Think about who is doing the feinting and whether they should be able to have the ability to aid their allies in such a way.
Greater Feint is incredibly underwhelming as a feat. Only with Two Weapon Feint is it any use at all really. Moonlight Stalker has a TON of requirements and situational. Its extremely disappointing as a third tier feat.
AoOs are kinda a poor argument for the viability of Greater Feint.
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It also does not specify that the loss of dexterity is for you only.
It also does not specify that the loss of dexterity is shared with your allies. The wording of the feat requires clarification in the FAQ.
I see how you are reading it and understand your side of the argument. I see it differently and apparently so do others (so far I have seen three different viewpoints over the past 4 years of posts). The fact that this question keeps popping up and sparking debate should be enough (hopefully) to get clarification through the FAQ.
I guess it is all in one's perspective Scavion.
I have a DM who loves to use feint against us. I usually play a Dex based character (Rogue, Swashbuckler, Archer, etc). I would be very scared if he used feint like some people suggest. I am just glad he does not read the forums here :)
Those characters should pick up Sense Motive then if its really that bad =P
I am sure the intent is for the user only, but the words don't say it. I will just FAQ this post again so it can be answered.
Trust me, this has all been batted around before.
Originally I was of the camp that it worked for the user only. Then after reading over the arguments, and noting that it would be really weak for a 'tree feat' if it functioned only for the user, I changed my mind, and believe that it denies it for everyone, making it incredibly potent.
It would be nice to have an official answer.
I can see the argument both ways and I agree if it denies Dex to AC for everyone it is very potent. Too potent, especially if you are on the receiving end.
Interestingly enough, I probably wouldn't take it as a Rogue if it functioned that way.
I'd take it on a Bard, so that the Rogue could fully take advantage of it.
It'd become one of those things where any party containing a sneak attack-based character would have to debate, "Okay, who's burning the feats for Greater Feint this time?"
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Hmm. I've never seen anyone argue that Greater Feint affected anything but AC before. I can see the argument but I'll set that aside for now.
The way I see it, we have two ways of interpreting the feat text:
Either the Dex loss is only towards the feinter, or it works for everybody.
Only towards the feinter:
-consistent with other feinting rules
-makes the feat very weak, often in fact weaker than just normal feinting
Works for everybody:
-much stronger effect, although strongest for everyone not the feinter
-requires a bit of presumed RAI reaching to get here
I come down on the side of it working for everybody, but my argument is purely a RAI/balance one.
Sneak Attack is already considered a relatively weak combat style due to how difficult it is to set up and keep. Greater Feint gives you consistency, at the cost of three feats from someone else that also denies that other person their full attack. I also favor any feat/ability that encourages teamwork to this extent.
And really, for the vast majority of high level monsters, Dex bonus is a minor part of AC at best, so if you're not talking sneak attack, then what's the problem?
Interestingly enough, I probably wouldn't take it as a Rogue if it functioned that way.
I took it with my PFS Fighter, and yes, the Rogues love her.
Midnighter: I agree with you completely about Dex-to-AC (+ CMD) and only for melee. However I disagree about who - there is simply far, far too small a benefit for such a high-level feat without it.
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I can see the argument both ways and I agree if it denies Dex to AC for everyone it is very potent. Too potent, especially if you are on the receiving end.
How is it too Potent? Gunslingers have the ability to do it as a standard action.
Startling Shot (Ex): At 7th level, a gunslinger with least 1 grit point can spend a standard action to purposely miss a creature that she could normally hit with a firearm attack. When she does, that creature becomes flat-footed until the start of its next turn.
When I played a gunslinger in a campaign, I couldn't do jack for damage. So I'd use this ability actually quite a bit.. However it didn't lower the AC of the monsters any, due to the fact most of them had only high natural armor (Which made it easy for me to hit them) but the rogue got in her sneak attacks. And everyone else could move without worry of the monster hitting them (Since flat-footed means you can't make AoO)
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So far I have seen three interpretations of the wording for Greater Feint.
1. "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus (to any attacker) until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack."
2. "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus (to everything), he loses that bonus (to any attacker) until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus (to everything) against your next (any type) attack."
3. "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus (to AC), he loses that bonus (to your attacks) until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus (to AC) against your next (melee) attack."
I can see the validity of each interpretation with the text as written in the CRB. The fact that there are (at least) three interpretations of the rule make it a good candidate for the FAQ. The fact that this question/debate has come up multiple times over the past 4 years is even more reason to get clarification.
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An interesting post by James Jacobs from another thread ("Ask James Jacobs")
Oh we have a misunderstanding. By "pump fake" I meant that as a way to feint an opponent at range with greater feint to make them lose their dex bonus to all attacks until the start of your next turn through an over reaction to the maneuver.So did you say?
It's intended that you feint in melee range.
Greater feint does just remove the dex mod to AC. So if a rogue feints the target with greater feint, his fighter buddy can hit that target without that target having its dex mod to AC.
Feint works for melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Nothing in the wording of Greater Feint mentions ranged attacks, so it still only helps you with melee attacks.
Likewise, Feint only affects attacks you make against the feinted creature—YOU tricked him, not everyone. Greater Feint makes no mention of "all creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like, so it works the same as a normal feint. ALL Greater Feint does is extend the duration of the feint maneuver. For you, the one who made that maneuver.
Beyond that, and beyond my interpretation, I suppose you'll need to take the question over to the rules forum.
Not an official FAQ ruling but a good insight into the intent from the Paizo staff.
An interesting post by James Jacobs from another thread ("Ask James Jacobs")
Oh we have a misunderstanding. By "pump fake" I meant that as a way to feint an opponent at range with greater feint to make them lose their dex bonus to all attacks until the start of your next turn through an over reaction to the maneuver.So did you say?
It's intended that you feint in melee range.
Greater feint does just remove the dex mod to AC. So if a rogue feints the target with greater feint, his fighter buddy can hit that target without that target having its dex mod to AC.Not an official FAQ ruling but a good insight into the intent from the Paizo staff.Feint works for melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Nothing in the wording of Greater Feint mentions ranged attacks, so it still only helps you with melee attacks.
Likewise, Feint only affects attacks you make against the feinted creature—YOU tricked him, not everyone. Greater Feint makes no mention of "all creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like, so it works the same as a normal feint. ALL Greater Feint does is extend the duration of the feint maneuver. For you, the one who made that maneuver.
Beyond that, and beyond my interpretation, I suppose you'll need to take the question over to the rules forum.
So basically, according to JJ, the feat should read:
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: When you successfully feint an opponent, he loses his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against all of your melee attacks until the beginning of your next turn.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
They could even errata it to read that way and save 8 words/42 characters.
So in other words it's a pointless powerless Feat. Heck, it's even in the wrong area - the only way it helps is for someone with Two-Weapon Feint. And even then it doesn't help because it's a move-action which means you can't use two-weapon fighting with Greater Feint.
So in other words it's a pointless powerless Feat. Heck, it's even in the wrong area - the only way it helps is for someone with Two-Weapon Feint. And even then it doesn't help because it's a move-action which means you can't use two-weapon fighting with Greater Feint.
Greater Feint actually stacks really well with Two-Weapon Feint. Two-Weapon Feint lets you forego one attack with your primary weapon to feint. Greater Feint says whenever you use Feint (though there is room for debate if these can work together). It'd actually better than Improved Two-Weapon Feint, which only lasts to the end of your turn.
It shouldn't work with Two-Weapon Feint. It is not a part of that Feat Tree. That and there's another Feat for just that purpose:
Improved Two-Weapon Feint (Combat)
Your primary weapon keeps a foe off balance, allowing you to slip your off-hand weapon past his defenses.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While using Two-Weapon Fighting to make melee attacks, you can forgo your first primary-hand melee attack to make a Bluff check to feint an opponent. If you successfully feint, that opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of your turn.
And don't give me that BS about Attacks of Opportunity with Greater Feint. No GM worth his salt would have a feinted opponent risk an AoO against the attacking Rogue; they'd either use Withdrawal (no AoO) or a five-foot move (again, no AoO), with the exception of Unintelligent foes that can't be Feinted against in the first place.
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Off the top of my head, Parry/Riposte, Crane Riposte, Opportunist, Outflank, Paired Opportunists, Step Up and Strike, Two Weapon Feint, Moonlight Stalker Feint, and Wave Strike all will gain benefit from Greater Feint. If you allow 3PP material you can find even more. Not every AoO trigger is based off of movement.
Greater Feint is certainly not the best feat in the game but it is by far not the worst. It works for certain builds that can afford the investment.
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No, its pretty damn bad if James Jacob's ruling is such.
I mean.. REALLY bad. The ammount of work to get something that doesn't actually really do anything beyond taking six other feats, having jupiter lined up with venus and after sacrificing a goat, you get something that might happen to give you a slight advantage.
Let's put it this way. It's useless for Rogues of under 10th level.
For instance, in order to get it, you need two other Feats. So you're either a human at level 3, or a level 5 non-human rogue. Meanwhile, you've foregone two-weapon attacks to build this. You're at level 9 (or 7 as a human) to get Two-Weapon Feint.
For instance, let's say you're building a two-weapon Rogue. You'd need two-weapon fighting (1st feat), two-weapon feint (2nd feat), Combat Expertise (3rd feat), Improved Feint (4th feat), and then Greater Feint (5th feat). At that point you take a move action in order to use Greater Feint... and then can't use two-weapon fighting because that's a full action. So it's either attack once... or maybe feint someone else as someone suggested.
Next round comes about and Greater Feint comes to an end before you even get to attack. After all, you used Greater Feint, not Improved or Two-Weapon Feint. It doesn't last 'til your next attack. It lasts until the start of your next round.
So. When does Greater Feint come into effectiveness? You Greater Feint, make one standard attack, maybe in theory get a second attack if a wizard Hasted your rogue, and then at level 10 use Opportunist, assuming that someone else attacks your target, get a third attack.
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Or you just go with Improved Two-Weapon Feint so that all your two-weapon attacks count. You don't need an additional two Feats to build to that point, Opportunist still works in this scenario, and you further branch out with Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, and other such Feats.
Seriously, Jacob's ruling basically makes Greater Feint into something so useless that they give it to villains to make them less powerful.
And the ONLY difference between Improved Two-Weapon Feint and Greater Feint is that one lasts 'til the end of the round and the second "until the start of your next round" - but you can get around THAT easily enough with Improved Initiative and a high Dexterity so you act first in the round anyway.
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A Rogue is not going to be able to even look at taking Greater Feint until 8th (using Combat Trick) or 9th level at the earliest because that is when they qualify (BAB +6 required).
I currently have a TWF Rogue/Fighter that has Greater Feint at 8th and combines it with Moonlight Stalker Feint to get 3 attacks (all Sneak Attacks) at 8th and 4 attacks at level 9. And that is not even counting the additional attacks from AoOs. The character is designed as a crit fishing partner to a trip/crit Fighter and we take advantage of teamwork feats to trigger AoOs for each other.
Yes it costs a lot to get there, but saying the feat is useless is an exaggeration. If you are limited to just the CRB and no other resource books in your game then yes, I would find the feat underwhelming to the point I would not bother. But the game involves more than just the CRB for most people.
Except it's an extension of Improved Feint, which means it's a Move Action to use it. So it won't work with two-weapon fighting. And it runs out before actions in the next round so you can't even use it then.
In essence, it's "I hope I can get an Attack of Opportunity on that specific guy so to make up for taking this Feat!"
Seriously. You can take Improved Two Weapon Feint and do the same thing if you act first in the round (or at least before any foes). And not waste two Feats in doing so.
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Except it's an extension of Improved Feint, which means it's a Move Action to use it. So it won't work with two-weapon fighting. And it runs out before actions in the next round so you can't even use it then.
In essence, it's "I hope I can get an Attack of Opportunity on that specific guy so to make up for taking this Feat!"
Seriously. You can take Improved Two Weapon Feint and do the same thing if you act first in the round (or at least before any foes). And not waste two Feats in doing so.
Why is it before any foes?
Because you're not going to want to take an Attack of Opportunity on an ally. ;) As ITWF is for the entire round, the only time it's useless is if the Rogue is going after all the enemies... and the Rogue could hold his or her action 'til the very very start of the next round and in essence not really lose actions in doing so.
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Ah, I thought you meant use it at the begining of combat. Which is useless.. Since like, anyone who doesn't go before you is flatfooted.
Feint works for melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Nothing in the wording of Greater Feint mentions ranged attacks, so it still only helps you with melee attacks.
Likewise, Feint only affects attacks you make against the feinted creature—YOU tricked him, not everyone. Greater Feint makes no mention of "all creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like, so it works the same as a normal feint. ALL Greater Feint does is extend the duration of the feint maneuver. For you, the one who made that maneuver.
Beyond that, and beyond my interpretation, I suppose you'll need to take the question over to the rules forum.
Which this makes me wonder about things like Startling Shot and Superior Feint. As both of these abilities are YOU tricking the him, not everyone, and make no mention of "All creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like..
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Greater Feint works with any feint action. If you feint as a swift action using Wave Strike or Moonlight Stalker Feint, or in place of an attack with Two-Weapon Feint then Greater Feint still comes into play. Greater Feint simply extends the feint effect for all melee attacks by the user until the start of his next turn.
So if you feint as a swift with Moonlight Stalker Feint you can still do a full round action and get all of your iterative attacks and any AoOs that trigger before the start of your next turn.
If you feint as a swift action using Wave Strike you can do the same but then you will not be able to use wave strike again until the next combat.
If you feint in place of your first attack with Two Weapon Feint you can do the rest of your iterative attacks with the feint effect as well as any AoOs.
Uses for Greater Feint are there, you just have to make a build to take advantage of the feat.
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Ah, I thought you meant use it at the begining of combat. Which is useless.. Since like, anyone who doesn't go before you is flatfooted.
Feint works for melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Nothing in the wording of Greater Feint mentions ranged attacks, so it still only helps you with melee attacks.
Likewise, Feint only affects attacks you make against the feinted creature—YOU tricked him, not everyone. Greater Feint makes no mention of "all creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like, so it works the same as a normal feint. ALL Greater Feint does is extend the duration of the feint maneuver. For you, the one who made that maneuver.
Beyond that, and beyond my interpretation, I suppose you'll need to take the question over to the rules forum.
Which this makes me wonder about things like Startling Shot and Superior Feint. As both of these abilities are YOU tricking the him, not everyone, and make no mention of "All creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like..
What is Superior Feint?
Greater Feint works with any feint action. If you feint as a swift action using Wave Strike or Moonlight Stalker Feint, or in place of an attack with Two-Weapon Feint then Greater Feint still comes into play. Greater Feint simply extends the feint effect for all melee attacks by the user until the start of his next turn.
So if you feint as a swift with Moonlight Stalker Feint you can still do a full round action and get all of your iterative attacks and any AoOs that trigger before the start of your next turn.
If you feint as a swift action using Wave Strike you can do the same but then you will not be able to use wave strike again until the next combat.
If you feint in place of your first attack with Two Weapon Feint you can do the rest of your iterative attacks with the feint effect as well as any AoOs.
Uses for Greater Feint are there, you just have to make a build to take advantage of the feat.
Im a bit confused. Are we sure Greater Feint works with any feint action? We can infer it is supposed to work with Improved Feint since it is the next part of the chain, but you referenced the feint rules for how the rest of the ability works so why wouldn't we reference the normal feint rules with Greater Feint as well?
And since Startling Shot was pointed out, which makes them flatfooted vs everyone and is only acquired at one level higher for free for the gunslinger instead of a 3 feat investment that must be completed at 6th or at 7th level, it very much makes me lean towards the denied dex to everyone side.
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Superior was something in the Swashbuckler Playtest, that was pretty much startling shot but when you were in melee. Attack as standard, purposefully miss, Target is Flat-footed.
And Regardless if there are ways around to making it useful now with the unofficial rulings by James Jacob, the feat itself is still.. pathetic.
Imagine if you would.. You had to spend three feats on... Lets say Shatter Defenses. Oh wait, you do.
Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display and then Shatter Defenses.
This is a good feat progression. DD, while not the best method, Allows you to go into Shatter Defenses fairly easy. And Weapon Focus is something that you'll use all the time with your weapon of choice.
If it was like greater feint, as per the interpretation, It wouldn't be so nicely contained. You'd have to spend 2+ more feats to even be able to get a USE out of Shatter Defenses, instead of being contained in Dazzling display or hell, even the normal use of demoralizing the foe.
Essentially making it something like "When you use the demoralize action to demoralize a foe, The foe is demoralized until the end of your turn in addition to however long the demoralized action happened."
At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal
Here is something else. Feint modifies melee. A per the ruling, While the target could be denied his dex mod from a range, you MUST make a melee attack because it does not specifically declare that it changed that they are denied their Dex Modifier against your range attacks.
Just wondering, it seems like it's being implied Two-Weapon Feint and Greater Feint wouldn't function together. In reading over the feats, they're both simply modifications to the basic feint action, so I see no reason why they would not.
Combining it with Two-Weapon Feint is a decent way to make it somewhat useful. It's still a bit out-of-whack since they aren't in the same tree; I suppose maybe they didn't put it in there so that single-weapon Rogues (are there such creatures?) could still pick it up?
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Greater Feint specifically states "Whenever you use feint" so it works with any type of feint action. Feint is a type of maneuver (but not an actual Combat Maneuver). Moonlight Stalker Feint, Wave Strike, Two Weapon Feint, Improved Feint all use the same feint maneuver rules. They all refer to Feint (page 201 in the CRB). They are separate feats because they change the action required (Standard/Move/Swift) or the circumstances required (Concealment/Weapon sheathed/First attack) to perform the feint. Once successful (they all follow the same rules for Bluff check) they all have the same effect (target loses Dex to AC). Greater Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint simply extend the duration.
Greater Feint specifically states "Whenever you use feint" so it works with any type of feint action. Feint is a type of maneuver (but not an actual Combat Maneuver). Moonlight Stalker Feint, Wave Strike, Two Weapon Feint, Improved Feint all use the same feint maneuver rules. They all refer to Feint (page 201 in the CRB). They are separate feats because they change the action required (Standard/Move/Swift) or the circumstances required (Concealment/Weapon sheathed/First attack) to perform the feint. Once successful (they all follow the same rules for Bluff check) they all have the same effect (target loses Dex to AC). Greater Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint simply extend the duration.
Yeah, I know - I meant that in some of the posts above mine, I was reading people as saying that you couldn't combine them. It seems clear to me that you can; I could just be misreading due to the late hour and too much champagne earlier.
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Superior was something in the Swashbuckler Playtest, that was pretty much startling shot but when you were in melee. Attack as standard, purposefully miss, Target is Flat-footed.
I just checked the playtest document (#2) concerning Superior Feint. Unless they changed the text again after the second document Superior Feint makes causes the target to lose his Dex to AC. It does not make him flat-footed (there is a difference). Either way, it is generally considered a bad idea for a martial class to give up a full attack in favor of a standard action, especially if that standard action intentionally misses the target. As it is written I would agree that Superior Feint is junk. If it were a swift or free action it would be worthwhile, but a standard? No way. There is nothing "superior" about that ability.
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The Fighter Archer archetype introduces all kinds of combat maneuver anomalies. That archetype pretty much breaks every combat maneuver rule there is. Bringing it in to a discussion on Greater Feint is kind of pointless.
Hardly pointless.
We're all referring back to the same thing, which is Greater Feint and the clause of "If not expressly stated that it causes X to happen, then X is limited to Y"
It is stated that Greater Feint does NOT cause the enemy to become denied his dex bonus to AC for all allies because it does not expressly mention that the enemy is in fact denied his dex for all allies.
Which due to the fact that the Ranged Feint does not expressly state the enemy is denied his dexterity for the next ranged attack, but continues under the assumption of melee, that the Archer Archetype must make a melee attack against the enemy with in this or next turn.
Startling Shot (Ex): At 7th level, a gunslinger with least 1 grit point can spend a standard action to purposely miss a creature that she could normally hit with a firearm attack. When she does, that creature becomes flat-footed until the start of its next turn.
How odd, the Swashbuckler says deny Dex and Startling shot is flat-footed. Even so, As its YOU tricking the enemy, then is not the enemy only denied his Dex Mod to you?