@Tangent101
Build it!
Okay. Here:
Unnamed Hero
Halfling Rogue 10
N Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +4; Senses Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +1 size)
hp 53 (10d8)
Fort +3, Ref +11 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +2; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee dagger +12/+7 (1d3+1/19-20/×2) and
dagger +12/+7 (1d3+1/19-20/×2) and
dagger +12/+7 (1d3+1/19-20/×2) and
dagger +12/+7 (1d3+1/19-20/×2) and
dagger +12/+7 (1d3+1/19-20/×2)
Ranged +1 seeking composite shortbow +14/+9 (1d4+1/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 21
Feats Dazzling Display, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (shortbow)
Skills Acrobatics +19 (+15 jump), Appraise +14, Bluff +16, Climb +11, Disable Device +20, Intimidate +16, Perception +14 (+19 to locate traps), Sense Motive +7, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +16; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Climb, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Halfling
SQ fearless, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse rogue, improved evasion, offensive defense, weapon training), seeking, trapfinding +5
Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Seeking Composite shortbow (Str +0), Arrows (40), Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, Dagger, 150 GP
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Special Abilities
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Dazzling Display (Shortbow) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Seeking Ignores miss chances, but must be aimed at the correct square.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
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When rapid-firing the bow while using Deadly Aim, he's got +11/+11/+6. Each shot would do 1d4+6 + 5d6 Sneak Attack Damage when attacking Flatfooted foes... or after a round of intimidating a GROUP of people he then would hit once for normal damage and then the remaining two attacks for one round would be Sneak Attacks... and three attacks the NEXT round. Thus providing a potential 6d4+36 + 25d6 damage.
Oh, I went with Halfling on a lark and because everyone keeps going on about how powerful humans are with their extra Feat. So... I went with a demi-human without darkvision or low-light vision.
@Tangent101
Build it!Okay. Here:
** spoiler omitted **...
You can probably drop deadly aim. The penalty to-hit is rarely ever worth it. Skill focus(intimidate) would make for a nice replacement. Skill mastery at 10 would allow you to take 10 on intimidate checks.
So. Does this make the base Rogue class functional? ;)
Other people have focused on crunching the mechanics of the class. I'd like to bring up other options.
Aid another is something I see not mentioned a lot. Please don't say other classes can do it, if they are busy fighting and casting spells they can't aid another.
Starting fires is a great way to confuse disorient enemies. I know it can affect allies too, but if the adventuring group comes up with some strategies before hand, that can be over come.
When the bad guy backs into a corner and asks where his god is, it's in the a bottle of oil or 100 proof whiskey with a pre soaked wick. Light and throw. Either the thing puts out the fire and you can sneak attack or you mock him as he burns to death.
Other people have focused on crunching the mechanics of the class. I'd like to bring up other options.
Aid another is something I see not mentioned a lot. Please don't say other classes can do it, if they are busy fighting and casting spells they can't aid another.
Starting fires is a great way to confuse disorient enemies. I know it can affect allies too, but if the adventuring group comes up with some strategies before hand, that can be over come.
When the bad guy backs into a corner and asks where his god is, it's in the a bottle of oil or 100 proof whiskey with a pre soaked wick. Light and throw. Either the thing puts out the fire and you can sneak attack or you mock him as he burns to death.
I guess aid another is better than doing nothing...
What do you mean by fire starting?
It's the whisky trick just re-skinned alchemist fire?
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Guess that's something, I don't agree with people in general about the rogue. A rogue engaging in a slugfest beside the rogue (thug) strength build is essentially not doing it right. When you play a rogue, it's all about hit and run tactic, striking from the shadow, bluffing your way out of combat, sneaking around to avoid encounters/scouting ahead. Just let the other classes who specialize in slugfest do it, you will be happier and safer. Occasionally flank or attack on surprise round to take advantage of sneak attack and you are good to go. Because frankly it doesn't matter how you tweak your rogue for combat if your party has a barbarian, fighter or paladin, they will outdamage you without even trying, every single round.
I was playing an evil rogue once and our group stopped to help a a couple of families in a broken down wagon. When they demanded a toll for using the road, I snuck away to the other side of the wagons and set the hay on fire.
They suddenly lost all interest in fighting and extorting money. The group subdued the ruffians and the became the beginnings of a thieves guild. Granted I took their pinky's for try to steal from me and warned I would take their life next.
So I impacted an entire scene without drawing blade or bow.
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One of the builds I'm looking at possibly trying is a grit/ki based build with a high dex/wis rogue.
Possibly using greater feint to make point blank shots with a dagger pistol.
Since the enemy is flatfooted until your next turn, and against your next melee attack..
Round 1, Feint - Shoot (SA)
Round 2, Stabbity! (SA) and either full round attack or reload after that.
@Espy Kismet
That sounds neat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a question...
In what way is the rogue class not functional? Battle isn't the only thing players do, and even in battle there are tons of ways around not doing much damage if you're creative enough. And rogues seem to be built more for creativity in combat than actual damage.
OOoh.. Another trick for a ranged Rogue
Still Image
Make a box. You have total concealment. SA for the win, since your opponents won't know you're there.
Though some work does need to be done with the concentration duration of illusions.
Familiars can use the wand for you.
or
Gnome rogue + Effortless Trickery
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Perhaps 'functional' isn't entirely the right word then.
Perhaps 'unique' or something of that sort.
What /actually/ makes a rogue unique? Is it his Sneak attack? His ability to trap find? Two more skill points? Uncanny Dodge? Evasion?
A sorcerer might be able to fill arcanist position.. But they are something beyond a wizard.
Sorcerers have more short term flexibility, and reserves over a Wizard.
Wizards have long term flexibility, and building power.
Witches have a completely different list of spells, and similiar abilities as far as spells go to a wizard, but rely more heavily on curses and enchantments.
Arcanists blend short term and long term flexibility, to reach something in the middle with less full power.
All four classes are arcane full casters, but all four could do things just a little different, having a rather unique capability of dealing with issues that crop up along the way, even though three of them have the exact same spell list, they all can utilize it differently. Heck, several wizards could utilize the spell list differently.
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Lvl 20 duelist rogue human
1-combat expertise
1-dodge
2- weapon finesse (talent)
3- improved unarmed strike
4- twf (combat trick)
5-mobility
6 offensive defense
7-iron will
8-weapon training
9-shadow strike
10- crippling strike
11-crane style (duelist PRC)
12-parry
13- crane wing
15- crane riposte
17- lunge
19- uuuhh not sure lol
Spoiler:Lvl 20 duelist rogue human1-combat expertise
1-dodge
2- weapon finesse (talent)
3- improved unarmed strike
4- twf (combat trick)
5-mobility
6 offensive defense
7-iron will
8-weapon training
9-shadow strike
10- crippling strike
11-crane style (duelist PRC)
12-parry
13- crane wing
15- crane riposte
17- lunge
19- uuuhh not sure lol
What is the range option?
What does this build do when it cannot flank?|
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Its scout archetype. Its a mobile fighter at 8 it always sneak attacks after moving. 4 does so on charge. Its not a DPR rogue. Ranged option is poor. You can, if you mustbl swap iron will and shadowatrike for point blank shot and rapid fire. This build should have the highest ac in the party so moving to flank is easy if they move toba corner perform cycle charges after 4 or just move after 8 for sneak attacks.
Perhaps 'functional' isn't entirely the right word then.
Perhaps 'unique' or something of that sort.
No functional is the right word. Unique requires comparing to other classes. That is not what we are doing here.
We're look at avoiding doing base weapon damage as the primary contribution to a fight.
Its scout archetype.
No archetypes is one of the goals here.
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Well that's limiting but if your not allowing archetypes I'm guessing no feats from anything bit crb then? My theory still holds. Your a mobile fighter who is adapt at getting into flanking postions. Its also a more defensive rogue who looks squishy but is really hard to hit. The build wouldn't come into its own till level 4 though with or with out archetypes.
Feat progression could also probably use a tweaking.
I'm guessing no feats from anything bit crb then?
I've never said that.
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Perhaps 'functional' isn't entirely the right word then.
Perhaps 'unique' or something of that sort.
No functional is the right word. Unique requires comparing to other classes. That is not what we are doing here.
We're look at avoiding doing base weapon damage as the primary contribution to a fight.
Ah..
I remember in 3.5 my rogue that basically was tricked out to do all sorts of awesome things.. But in most combat he was doing 1 point of acid damage only, because he made daggers out of a black dragon's fangs.
I was comic relief, and was constantly running away from everything while the rest of the party fought it dead.
Perhaps 'functional' isn't entirely the right word then.
Perhaps 'unique' or something of that sort.
No functional is the right word. Unique requires comparing to other classes. That is not what we are doing here.
We're look at avoiding doing base weapon damage as the primary contribution to a fight.
One more question before I work up my build to contribute...
Does this include builds where most of the damage a rogue does comes from no weapon damage at all? Because I have an old 3.5 build I can update that did fairly well in dealing damage, but primarily through tactical means.
I remember in 3.5 my rogue that basically was tricked out to do all sorts of awesome things.. But in most combat he was doing 1 point of acid damage only, because he made daggers out of a black dragon's fangs.
I was comic relief, and was constantly running away from everything while the rest of the party fought it dead.
That is what we are looking to avoid here.
One more question before I work up my build to contribute...
Does this include builds where most of the damage a rogue does comes from no weapon damage at all? Because I have an old 3.5 build I can update that did fairly well in dealing damage, but primarily through tactical means.
Doing noticeable damage does not require using a weapon. BUT you can't assume flanking, and must have a viable range option.
You're obviously comparing it to the damage of another class.
That class is a commoner-who-rolls-high. As I have stated.
Its scout archetype.No archetypes is one of the goals here.
Umm, but why? One of the concepts here is that the rogue isn't functional because archetypes from other classes can do the rogues job. I don't entirely agree with that, but that's one of base tenets here, isn't it? but they you don't allow the rogue his archetypes but want to shoehorn him into a DPR role.
Not cricket, wut?
You're obviously comparing it to the damage of another class.That class is a commoner-who-rolls-high. As I have stated.
Our rogue has dropped several nasties with the combo of sneak attack then bleed. How does the commoner get those?
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Its scout archetype.No archetypes is one of the goals here.Umm, but why? One of the concepts here is that the rogue isn't functional because archetypes from other classes can do the rogues job. I don't entirely agree with that, but that's one of base tenets here, isn't it? but they you don't allow the rogue his archetypes but want to shoehorn him into a DPR role.
Not cricket, wut?
Not shoe horning him into a DPR roll. Making sure the rogue can get his sneak attack on a normally consistent basis without having to rely on others constantly to do so.
If I was to play a commoner, I could do wonderfully in combat if I've got lots and lots of support from other team members.