Wait, are the commoners readying actions to attack anyone who teleports in (not that the wizard would teleport in alone...) or are they using their crossbows? How does this protect them from the party archer or fireballs? Why are the traps in the middle of the commoners? Won't they get hurt by them too? Also, have you seen how ineffectual traps are in Pathfinder?
DO you know how many commoners it takes to make an equal CR encounter?
Why would all the commoners be doing the same thing? The crossbows are just to harass the party into moving. Also it wouldn't take that many commoners to trigger traps.
Yes these commoners are willing sacrifice themselves to injure or kill the PCs (they are basically terrorist that hate the PCs because of their freedom).
I don't see why the crossbowman wouldn't be firing from cover, being all but invisible to the PCs, and if the PCs try to use cover the commoners can just set fire to the area. The commoners would only let the PCs see the commoners they wanted them to see to lure them into traps.
A clever GM controling a commoner give no chalenge for a clever player controling a high level char. The GM need a powerfull "weapon" too.
Well we already threw perception checks completely out the window just by letting the commoners see the PCs at all from 1000 feet away, so it's kinda b@*~&@%! to say the commoners can see the PCs but the PCs cannot see the commoners.
Anyway, 16 1st level commoners is a CR 6 encounter, going by table 12--3 in the CRB. The table in the CRB doesn't go any higher, but if we assume the pattern towards the end of the table continues, then every extra 4 commoners increases the CR by 1. Let's say the party is 15th level. Then the CR 15 encounter has 52 commoners. Let's multiply that number by 4, because the DM for some reason wants to roll hundreds of dice. The party faces 208 1st level commoners. If all of them use crossbows every round and picked up rapid reload, that's an average of about 10d10 damage per round to the party. 55 damage doesn't kill anyone at 15th level. If some of them are instead waiting around to set off traps (how did they manage to set this up so the PCs were completely surrounded by traps anyway?), that's even less damage.
The PCs win, easily. The players then quit because this was a boring and overly contrived encounter by an antagonistic DM willing to bend and break rules in order to try to prove something(?) by killing the party with 1st level commoners. The DM failed of course, but it's the thought that counts.
The fact that you posted DPR totals for the commoners shows that you are not focusing on what is actually threatening the party.
The focus on DPR is what leads to rocket tag, and any clever GM will be able to destroy a party that tries rocket tag tactics with APL encounters.
EDIT: I'm guiltier than anyone of un-clever DMing. I use to run a 20+ campaign in 3.5 where in one encounter I had the party fight 100 closely packed balors. Ofcourse the party only had to kill a few of them before they chain exploded to death. It's only recently that I have had the chance to witness a GM who actually runs the NPCs with tactics by roleplaying their combat choices. We've nearly wiped as a 6 person party to one druid of equal level just because he made smart decisions.
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That's because the chart isn't that helpful for telling you exactly how many PCs you want to wager killing.That's not what its says at all. +0 is even, +1 is challenging, 5 isn't even on the chart.
You keep adding your own definitions and we've gone off from where it started.
To be clear, when I said earlier that you need to make an encounter that's +5 over your APL to help the creature in question survive, then that means something is up. Your response was that it works as advertised, and I gave you what it advertised.
Edit: Not a big fan of talking about killing players either.
If, instead, you run an APL +1 encounter consisting of several weaker monsters, the PCs can drop the monsters in a round or two each. ... Which is exactly how it works in low level games. If you run a 17th level party against a group of CR 16 blue dragons, that's equivalent to a bunch of 2nd level characters fighting 2 HD orcs.
I would never speak of killing players. That's murder. PCs, on the other hand, are delicious.
I would never speak of killing players.
I only throw CR appropriate encounters, they like the rush.
...
So then Anzyr, enuf hypotheticals. Many of us, such as RJGrady and myself have said we don;t have "rocket tag in our games. The Devs don't have rocket tag in their games.
Do you? I asked you this yesterday and you didn't reply: And, few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game. Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?
Is YOUR game all Rocket tag? What sort of game do you play?
To everyone here that claims that rocket tag is "inevitable" do you actually play that way? Do you even play Pathfinder?
If so then do you enjoy playing that way?
Do you play with any of the three factors I listedRocket tag is caused by three issues:
1. Allowing PC's to hyper-optimize. High point buy, allowing magic items, feats, spells, etc from non-core sources, dumping, etc.
2. Running those hyper-optimized PC's in a standard AP and not making adjustments to the encounters. If the players get a 25 pt build, why are the monsters still using Elite? Why not change around their feats, spells etc to match those the PC's have access to?
3. The DM not using good tactics for the bad guys.
But let me AGAIN make this clear- if you are having fun, then allowing Rocket Tag is NOT "Badwrongfun". If it's fun, then it's not wrong. Revel in your characters hyper-optimized powerfulness.
But those of you that claim rocket tag is Borg-like in it's inevitability, then do YOU play that way?
Or are we just talking hypotheticals?
I think the phrase hyper-optimize may not be precise enough. A hyper-optimized character ought to be generally effective. I see a problem in what I call "stunt optimization." As in, Look, Ma, I can pounce from 300' feet away at 5th level. Optimization toward some really impressive and useful result, without any real regard to balance, longevity, sanity, or survival.
So then Anzyr, enuf hypotheticals. Many of us, such as RJGrady and myself have said we don;t have "rocket tag in our games. The Devs don't have rocket tag in their games.
Well, on the other hand my experiences with 3.x aren't hypotheticals and I'm absolutely sure that 'rocket tag' gameplay exist in both gameplay and math.
Didn't RJGrady also say you should throw CR+5 APL to ensure the enemies survival?
In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game.
If my group isn't playing cautiously or are going into a fight where the chips are down, then my games aren't rocket tag. As soon as they're aware of that the fight is serious it happens very quickly.
And most combat in my games last 2-6ish rounds. However the bulk of the fight is over in about 4. Anything after that is *usually* mopping up the enemies that remain/are disabled.
So then Anzyr, enuf hypotheticals. Many of us, such as RJGrady and myself have said we don;t have "rocket tag in our games. The Devs don't have rocket tag in their games.Well, on the other hand my experiences with 3.x aren't hypotheticals and I'm absolutely sure that 'rocket tag' gameplay exist in both gameplay and math.
So, you play 3rd, not PF, then?
Didn't RJGrady also say you should throw CR+5 APL to ensure the enemies survival?
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not even sure what you think I mean. Ensuring the enemies' survival means the PCs probably all die.
What I said is that CR+5 is usually about right for an epic, drag-out battle in which the PCs will attempt to use and expend just about everything in their arsenal to win. The specific issue in question was, "How do I epic dragon fight?" Answer: don't make the dragon an "average" or "challenging" encounter. Start at "epic" and work your way up.
Taking out a bunch of low CR dragons isn't rocket tag, it's tee-ball.
So, you play 3rd, not PF, then?So then Anzyr, enuf hypotheticals. Many of us, such as RJGrady and myself have said we don;t have "rocket tag in our games. The Devs don't have rocket tag in their games.Well, on the other hand my experiences with 3.x aren't hypotheticals and I'm absolutely sure that 'rocket tag' gameplay exist in both gameplay and math.
You play PF but not 3rd? That takes away a lot of rules. That only leaves like... .75 of an edition!
The two aren't mutually exclusive in playing, I can play one on Wednesday day and another on Sunday(which I have!). Pathfinder also happens to be built up on a lot of 3rd edition rules and supposedly is backwards compatible, though I've never done a mixed game before to know.
Edit: To clarify, I was referring to my experiences in 3 3rd editions. Been playing 3.0 since its release, moved onto 3.5 when it converted, and played pathfinder a bit in its beta and continued to play both.
I think there are a lot of options available in 3.5 - hell a lot of options in the Spell Compendium - that clash in terms of balance with Pathfinder (a couple of outlier spells in PF excluded).
Spell Compendium had a metric buttload of ray spells that did ability damage or double damage against Creature X.
Spell Compendium also had a bunch of stuff, IIRC, that let you massively buff defenses so as to make rocket tag a lot less likely.
I thought this thread was about PF?
I thought this thread was about PF?
What is on topic and how do I get there?
Not in our games. We don't use 3.5 rules or material.
Spell Compendium also had a bunch of stuff, IIRC, that let you massively buff defenses so as to make rocket tag a lot less likely.
It also had a lot of spells to attach a second rocket to yours.
I think the only real difference between 3.5 and PF is, ironically, that 3.5 has more of the traits people say is conducive to "rocket tag". There are many more save or die and save or suck spells in 3.5. Wail of the Banshee and Finger of Death didn't do 10dmg/CL until Pathfinder. Used to be that they killed you outright. Nowadays, even cloth casters that fails saves could possibly survive that.
Bit of a longshot, but hey, you could afford a belt of Con at higher levels, right? I believe that there are only a few spells that are truly save or die/lose.
It just seems to me that optimization can break encounters at higher levels. But they could also do that at low levels, so who's surprised? High levels in and of themselves don't seem to be necessarily broken, assuming you don't have anyone actively trying to break the game.
Pathfinder has definitely smoothed out higher level play.
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I think the only real difference between 3.5 and PF is, ironically, that 3.5 has more of the traits people say is conducive to "rocket tag".
3.5 doesn't have spell perfection. 3.5 doesn't have dazing spell, which makes it really easy to target whatever save you want for a save-or-lose. On the defense side, in 3.5, death ward grants immunity to death effects. In Pathfinder, death ward only grants a bonus on saves and allows a save even if not normally allowed. In 3.5, mind blank grants immunity to mind-affecting effects. In Pathfinder, it only grants a resistance bonus on saves.
In some ways, Pathfinder is less rocket tag-inclined than 3.5. In others, Pathfinder is more rocket tag-inclined. Pathfinder did nerf some save-or-die effects, but it didn't remove all of them and it didn't nerf the save-or-you-might-as-well-be-dead effects. If 3.5 is more conducive to rocket tag, it's only because it has more splat books and more material to find rockets in.
Let us not get into Edition wars, OK? Really easy to get a thread shut down for that.
We will just say that 3.5 and PF are different, and what we're talking about here is "does the math in PATHFINDER break down in higher levels" as an example-"Rocket Tag".
If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game. Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?
Is YOUR game all Rocket tag? What sort of game do you play?
To everyone here that claims that rocket tag is "inevitable" do you actually play that way? Do you even play Pathfinder?
If so then do you enjoy playing that way?
Do you play with any of the three factors I listed:
Rocket tag is caused by three issues:
1. Allowing PC's to hyper-optimize. High point buy, allowing magic items, feats, spells, etc from non-core sources, dumping, etc.
2. Running those hyper-optimized PC's in a standard AP and not making adjustments to the encounters. If the players get a 25 pt build, why are the monsters still using Elite? Why not change around their feats, spells etc to match those the PC's have access to?
3. The DM not using good tactics for the bad guys.
But let me AGAIN make this clear- if you are having fun, then allowing Rocket Tag is NOT "Badwrongfun". If it's fun, then it's not wrong. Revel in your characters hyper-optimized powerfulness.
Those of you that claim rocket tag is Borg-like in it's inevitability, then do YOU play that way?
Or are we just talking hypotheticals?
Anzyr, I have not yet gotten your answer to this question.
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If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game.
I chimed in upthread. I also responded to your three factors in another post.
Pathfinder has definitely smoothed out higher level play.
How so? Helps to add details.
1. I think level of optimization is an incorrect standard. I think it's better to ask if you allow random campaign specific sources like blood money and dervish dance.
2. I would say with a 20 point build you don't have to adjust the encounters. At high levels the extra 5 points will not do all that much
3. I don't think PCs are aware of when their GM is using bad tactics.
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Pathfinder has definitely smoothed out higher level play.How so? Helps to add details.
Again, let us not compare editions too much, this is against Paizo messageboard rules.
I chimed in upthread. I also responded to your three factors in another post.If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game.
Yes, thank you. But then you think it only starts around 17th level then?
1. I think level of optimization is an incorrect standard. I think it's better to ask if you allow random campaign specific sources like blood money and dervish dance.
2. I would say with a 20 point build you don't have to adjust the encounters. At high levels the extra 5 points will not do all that much
3. I don't think PCs are aware of when their GM is using bad tactics.
Good points. But does your actual campaign have a lot of Rocket Tag?
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If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
No, we stop before or at the level where that starts to happen.
Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?
IRL.
To everyone here that claims that rocket tag is "inevitable" do you actually play that way? Do you even play Pathfinder?
If so then do you enjoy playing that way?
As stated earlier, we stop when it happens.
Do you play with any of the three factors I listed:
Rocket tag is caused by three issues:
1. Allowing PC's to hyper-optimize. High point buy, allowing magic items, feats, spells, etc from non-core sources, dumping, etc.2. Running those hyper-optimized PC's in a standard AP and not making adjustments to the encounters. If the players get a 25 pt build, why are the monsters still using Elite? Why not change around their feats, spells etc to match those the PC's have access to?
3. The DM not using good tactics for the bad guys.
No, no, and no. We do use higher than average point buys, and "dumping" is not particularly hyper-optimized. We consider it a role-playing aid because it forces characters to have weaknesses (e.g., the stupid druid and the ugly flghter trying to con his way past the king's guards).
Most importantly, IMHO your point #3 is exactly wrong. Good tactics are what create rocket tag. The Pathfinder system is implicitly set up to favor offense over defense. As a simple example, martial classes BAB scales faster than monster AC. Similarly, the amount of damage a monster does per round goes up faster than the amount that can typically be healed in a round. Et cetera.
This means, in turn, that defensive actions are usually less effective than offensive ones. As a simple example, single-attack-then-withdraw will usually cost you more than half of your martial attacks (or a monster's), and therefore cut your damage in half or less. This, in turn, gives the opponent twice as long to get lucky against you. Good tactics involve neutralizing the opponent as quickly and as effectively as possible.
Thus, rocket tag. If you can neutralize an opponent in one round, he can't do anything to you If you can neutralize him in one round but choose instead to defend yourself (and implicitly, to neutralize him in two), unless your defense is 100% perfect, you are still worse off taking the potential hit.
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game. Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?
I've said several times I've been in rocket tag games. Pretty sure I was talking about real life and not hypotheticals. Selective perception or what.
Yes, thank you. But then you think it only starts around 17th level then?I chimed in upthread. I also responded to your three factors in another post.If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game.
I don't see what I wrote to lead you to (wrongly) believe I think that.
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game. Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?I've said several times I've been in rocket tag games. Pretty sure I was talking about real life and not hypotheticals. Selective perception or what.
Thank you- so do you enjoy playing rocket tag?
I don't see what I wrote to lead you to (wrongly) believe I think that.Yes, thank you. But then you think it only starts around 17th level then?I chimed in upthread. I also responded to your three factors in another post.If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
few people have said they play a game where 'rocket tag" is normal. In fact no one here has chimed in to say their actual game is a "rocket tag' game.
Well, then- at what level- where you normally play- does rocket tag happen? And do you enjoy playing that way?
If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
No, we stop before or at the level where that starts to happen.
Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?IRL.
So then, you don't play in games where Rocket Tag is common. But you don;t like it?
So then, you don't play in games where Rocket Tag is common. But you don;t like it?
If you play PF, do you see a lot of "Rocket Tag" in actual play?
No, we stop before or at the level where that starts to happen.
Are you talking IRL or theorycraft?IRL.
We stop our games when -- as is common -- they degenerate into rocket tag. So I would say it's a common experience, but we don't like it, so we stop it.
I'll be the lone oddball, and come out and state point-blank that I actually kind of prefer rocket tag. I don't care about combats that go on for round after round. That doesn't make them "epic" to me in anything but length; mostly it just makes them seem boring and vaguely stupid to me. At high levels, I WANT fights to be over in 2 rounds or less, because then the game is [EDIT: or rather, "should be made"] all about getting the drop on the opposition before the fights even start (high-level characters have the resources that they should never be walking blind into a prepared BBEG unless they've totally dropped the ball).
I'm reminded of Larry Niven's "What Good is a Glass Dagger?"