Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't played League of Legends, but this video claims they've made progress in toning down the amount of trolling and other toxic behaviour with a sort of carrot & stick reputation system.
Has League of Legends Tamed the Trolls Forever?
While I certainly doubt the 'forever' part, that isn't exactly what the lead-in question of the video asks. As someone who hasn't (and likely won't) play this particular game, I'm wondering if those of you who've played it have noticed a change in average player behaviour over time? Either way, personal stories are still a collection of anecdotes, but I'm curious to hear them anyway.
Do you know of other games doing similar things with any success?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Riots methods towards minimising negative behaviour work; they have the statistical evidence that proves this. They have one of the largest player behaviour departments in the industry working on curbing the toxic behaviours of their users, and for very good reason; League is generally considered to be one of the best games on the market, and would be close to perfect if it wasn't for the other players.
League is a game that I have a lot of experience with. I started playing in the beta, I follow the professional scene with the tenacity of a football hooligan, and if I wasn't a few years too old I would be very realistically pushing towards going pro myself. I would not feel that I would be overstepping if I said that I likely know the most about League on these forums (though I am willing to be corrected, it's just I spend a lot of time involved with the game).
Simply put, the player experience is better than it has ever been. The Tribunal system works. The Honour system helps (though needs work). Forced player muting after continued instances of negative behaviour works. Riot have done more towards re-educating their toxic users than any other company that I know of; at the least they have been the most successful. They have people with applicable PhDs working towards that goal.
GolblinWorks would be in extremely good company if they took a similar route as Riot when it comes to player behaviour. They exist in slightly different environments, but they are close enough that I think that learned lessons would be applicable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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they have the statistical evidence that proves this
Sorry if my comment about anecdotes sounded dismissive, I didn't mean it quite that way and since I'm still in the editing window I've tried to rephrase it to clarify. Thanks for sharing your experience, Morbis.
Also thanks to Bludd for the kudo, and to Ryan for the insight from the development perspective.
~
Do you think honour or dishonour icons for rep could be interesting? You wouldn't want the negative badge to look too 'cool', though, like a skull. There were UO players who started playing as griefers just to get the red "Dread Lord" title, after all.
Should players opt to 'mute' everyone below a certain rep level? You don't need to understand giantish to understand that an ogre is a threat, and having much of the community squelch them would take away a lot of their ability to taunt. Those who are often squelched might have their chat logs reviewed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have played a lot of League of Legends; I can't say whether or not the community is better now than it was before the Tribunal and other measures were enacted (Riot's statistics say it is, but I can't really confirm that with anecdote). You will still get people who seem to set out with the goal of ruining their teammate's day; it does seem like there's only maybe 0-2 of those people in any given game though. Riot's dedication to improving their player base is one of the reasons I really like them as a company.
PS: Anyone wanna play some League? ;) My summoner name is Rovagug (please don't tell Paizo and make me change it XD)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I've attended Riot presentTions on their anti-toxicity systems at professional development events and found them very enlightening. I also play LoL and believe the community has been improved by what they're doing. I especially like the tribunal.
Do you have the time to summarize what you learned from those events, what you like about them, and how you hope to have those lessons implemented in your product?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The summary is that when you tell the community that some behavior is unacceptable, give people tools to report misbehavior, give people a feedback loop so they know when the community thinks they are misbehaving, when you make judgement and punishment transparent, and when you target and actively exclude irredeemable troublemakers, you get a less toxic community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The summary is that when you tell the community that some behavior is unacceptable, give people tools to report misbehavior, give people a feedback loop so they know when the community thinks they are misbehaving, when you make judgement and punishment transparent, and when you target and actively exclude irredeemable troublemakers, you get a less toxic community.
And... So are there plans of doing something similar to the "carrot" approach spoken about in the video, in PFO?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You eat an in-game carrot and get 1 day of game time.
Carrots are non-transferable.
I know you are joking but that would be an excellent idea if PFO had an honor system as described in the video.
You earn X amount of honor, you can purchase item (including game time) in the MTX store.
How much honor would equal $14.99 (US) of game time would be would have to be considered.
It could work like this:
@ 10,000 Honor Points you earn your first Time Card
@ 50,0000 Honor Points you earn your second Time Card
Then every 50,000 points earned...
This might assume that it takes a year to earn 50,000 Honor for the average player or Pay for 12 Months, Get one Free.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wasn't entirely kidding. It doesn't have to be an orange Heroic Carrot. If honor is quantifiable and translateable into an extra day of game time here and there the positive outcomes of widespread good behavior and a cooperative game community can help draw in players and easily outweigh the costs of $.50 to a player every... month? Pay for a year get 12 days free see my plan is better economics for GW than a full timecard each year.
And a big part of my thinking is players will respond more strongly to frequent and familiar stimuli than bigger but very occasional ones; it's a thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And a (bi-annual?) lottery for goblin balls, too. Your character's name entered one more time for each threshold of honor they achieve.
It would be like the Hunger Games, but instead of being chosen to fight other children to the death for the demented entertainment of a spiritually sick society of domination and dehumanization in the Capital, you get Goblin Balls!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly i like the carrot idea and the lottery idea. Having an actual carrot would just be funny and great.
In the video its mentioned that they have forum badges for people who are known to be honorable. Perhaps something like that can be done in game. Say you get a unique mount where they ONLY way to get it is not only to be non toxic but to be a positive player. If you dont maintain that the mount goes poof.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the things that I think that the player behaviour department is still pushing is the idea that you don't outright reward players for being upstanding members of the community. Rather the intent is to point out desired behaviour to those who have been poorly conditioned in the past. “This is how we want you to behave”. When you begin to hand out measurable rewards beyond the trivial, all you are doing is providing a goal for the completionist a#@ h+##s. The honour ribbons don't actually do anything, they are just a little shiny in your loading screen banner. You don't get IP for participating in the Tribunal any more. Being a good player should be its own reward. The equivalent would be a title within your name; not really worth anything, but still something to point towards.
You provide role models for the toxic players to strive towards, and you punish those toxic players until they see the benefit of acting as those role models do. From there, you hope that the increased social benefits of acting that way continues to condition those players to act that way.
There are carrots, but they aren't particularly tasty carrots.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly i like the carrot idea and the lottery idea. Having an actual carrot would just be funny and great.
In the video its mentioned that they have forum badges for people who are known to be honorable. Perhaps something like that can be done in game. Say you get a unique mount where they ONLY way to get it is not only to be non toxic but to be a positive player. If you dont maintain that the mount goes poof.
This is the forum badge the highest honor player should get: Forum Honor Badge
One of the things that I think that the player behaviour department is still pushing is the idea that you don't outright reward players for being upstanding members of the community. Rather the intent is to point out desired behaviour to those who have been poorly conditioned in the past. “This is how we want you to behave”. When you begin to hand out measurable rewards beyond the trivial, all you are doing is providing a goal for the completionist a~# h!*@s. The honour ribbons don't actually do anything, they are just a little shiny in your loading screen banner. You don't get IP for participating in the Tribunal any more. Being a good player should be its own reward. The equivalent would be a title within your name; not really worth anything, but still something to point towards.
You provide role models for the toxic players to strive towards, and you punish those toxic players until they see the benefit of acting as those role models do. From there, you hope that the increased social benefits of acting that way continues to condition those players to act that way.
There are carrots, but they aren't particularly tasty carrots.
This game's going to be dull, isn't it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the forum badge the highest honor player should get: Forum Honor Badge
Nah, that's what they make your in-game avatar when you hit -7500 reputation.
This game's going to be dull, isn't it?Isn't 'fun' a function of the players?
No, it's a 2-way street. If it were all up to the players, then playing Pong would be just as good as playing PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PONG was totally addictive play.
But I get your point and yes, a game can be ruined by the developer. It can be made so there isn't any game to it for the players to have fun with.
But if they make a good game and the players arrive with completely alien expectations, fail to adapt to the new environment, and insist on playing exactly the game(s) they already made so boring that they left it (blaming the game instead of themselves) then the responsibility is more rightly on the players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, it's a 2-way street. If it were all up to the players, then playing Pong would be just as good as playing PFO.This game's going to be dull, isn't it?Isn't 'fun' a function of the players?
Pong was my first video game, on the Telstar System (Telstar Alpha) in 1976.
I rage quit because I was being griefed in chat and my opponent was goal camping.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PONG was totally addictive play. ~edit~ I loved gate camping Bludd, frexample.
But I get your point and yes, a game can be ruined by the developer. It can be made so there isn't any game to it for the players to have fun with.
But if they make a good game and the players arrive with completely alien expectations, fail to adapt to the new environment, and insist on playing exactly the game(s) they already made so boring that they left it (blaming the game instead of themselves) then the responsibility is more rightly on the players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What kind of monitoring goes on a player-based judiciary system such as LoL's tribunal though? I have heard horror stories of the Tribunal breeding a sense of elitism and players being punished for being not-so-good at the game or making mistakes that lead to lost matches. While actual toxic behavior is reduced, the number of players who are non-toxic seem high in the system because of perceived expectations of how someone is supposed to play (strategies, willingness to fall in line and listen to some guy barking orders, etc...). This isn't the same nature of game and I doubt this community would grow that out of touch, but introducing the ability for players to make decisions about what causes rep gain or loss on a case by case basis really introduces a double-edged sword.
Note, the stories I have heard are more than a year old and could be lacking in information on more recent developments. Though a quick google search appears to demonstrate a lot of frustration over how harsh the community is on LoL novices.
Pong was my first video gameNo, it's a 2-way street. If it were all up to the players, then playing Pong would be just as good as playing PFO.This game's going to be dull, isn't it?Isn't 'fun' a function of the players?
Wasn't Pong THE first video game? lol
Learn something new, everyday.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends on your definition of 'video game'. Text MUDs were earlier. See 'The Cave'.
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You see a small opening. u,d,e,s
~~edit~~actually don't. I don't believe it but I seem to have outlived the search engines. I believe it was an MIT student who created The Cave interactive text adventure on a mainframe long long ago.
I don't think text adventures qualify because they don't really have the "video" part so much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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False positives do occur, however the use of a scaling punishment system largely negatives that risk. Generally, the first time that you are punished by the Tribunal, you get a three day suspension. That might have changed, I know that they introduced chat mutes and things. The chances of you being taken to the Tribunal multiple times, and have the system fail such that you are punished each time, is extremely small. For example, I have been playing for over three years. I have been taken to the Tribunal once, I got punished that one time, and I definitely deserved it. It hasn't ever been an issue since.
Keep in mind the League of Legends is a competitive game; there is an expectation that your allies will generally know what they are supposed to be doing, and they will act to the best of their ability to do so. There are some people who abuse the report system to try and punish unskilled players, however the vast majority of these reports don't actually do anything. There are a few systems in place to assist.
First, the weight your reports hold when it comes to deciding whether or not a case is taken to the Tribunal are based on how well you have reported in the past. If you report someone every game, and the majority of those reports never go anywhere, you are considered less trust worthy by the system. The system learns whose opinions it can trust, and adjusts itself in kind.
Second, there is a report option for “Unskilled Player” that doesn't actually do anything. Most people aren't aware that it doesn't report people to the Tribunal, so when they are feeling like dicks because someone played badly, that tends to be the report option they go for.
Third, real, meaningful punishments from the Tribunal are reviewed by Riot employees. You cannot be banned without a real, responsible person looking over your case and making sure it's legit. I'm fairly sure to get permabanned you need to have gone to the Tribunal and been punished like, 6 times (barring exceptional circumstances.)
Also keep in mind that League is the second most played game in the world right now. I'm fairly sure that World of Tanks is still above it, though that might have changed. There are always going to be a few people who get caught in the crossfire. That you don't hear more horror stories is representative of the system largely working as intended.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Wasn't Pong THE first video game? lolPong was my first video gameNo, it's a 2-way street. If it were all up to the players, then playing Pong would be just as good as playing PFO.This game's going to be dull, isn't it?Isn't 'fun' a function of the players?
My references say not technically.
It degenerates into a series of debates regarding the definition of 'video game'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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May I claim disability and go on a pension now?Depends on the sales of your book? :-)
Heh. Okay, back to the grindstone... frankly there are over 38,000 titles it is competing with. I'm a complete unknown with no advertising beyond what I can socialize. Even if someone stumbled across it in a search there are no reviews whatsoever to recommend it. True, there also aren't any reviews to warn them off.
So I will likely just keep percolating at my day job, write the follow-on book, and accept it really isn't such a bad life to live having the friends I have and enjoying what I do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What kind of monitoring goes on a player-based judiciary system such as LoL's tribunal though? I have heard horror stories of the Tribunal breeding a sense of elitism and players being punished for being not-so-good at the game or making mistakes that lead to lost matches. While actual toxic behavior is reduced, the number of players who are non-toxic seem high in the system because of perceived expectations of how someone is supposed to play (strategies, willingness to fall in line and listen to some guy barking orders, etc...). This isn't the same nature of game and I doubt this community would grow that out of touch, but introducing the ability for players to make decisions about what causes rep gain or loss on a case by case basis really introduces a double-edged sword.
Note, the stories I have heard are more than a year old and could be lacking in information on more recent developments. Though a quick google search appears to demonstrate a lot of frustration over how harsh the community is on LoL novices.
Real-world conspiracy 'theories' are hung on less evidence than that, and such suspicions are to be expected in any case where someone has power another cannot access.
Anonymity and in-game admins
The in-game admin faces a bizarre problem. He is exercising power that the ordinary virtual citizen cannot. And he is looked to in many ways to provide a certain atmosphere and level of civility in the environment. Yet the fact remains that no matter how scrupulously honest he is, no matter how just he shows himself to be, no matter how committed to the welfare of the virtual space he may prove himself, people will hate his guts. They will mistrust him precisely because he has power, and they can never know him. There will be false accusations galore, many insinuations of nefarious motives, and former friends will turn against him. It may be that the old saying about power and absolute power is just too ingrained in the psyche of most people; whatever the reasons, there has never been an online game whose admins could say with a straight face that all their players really trusted them (and by the way, it gets worse once you take money!).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont know if this is the talk ryan is talking about but here is a presentation from Riot on toxic players.
The name of this talk is:
The Science Behind Shaping Player Behavior in Online Games
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/191262/
Just had time to get to this but the edit timer on my previous post was expired.
Clickable version:
The Science Behind Shaping Player Behavior in Online Games
Thanks for sharing the link, it was good to get more on the topic about how they approached the issue. I wish the speaker had time to cover the last two pillars.
As to the carrot side, I think the honour badges could make other players more comfortable with having you in games with them, as teammates or opponents. Maybe there's no need to provide a mechanical advantage or monetary discount if the reward can simply influence others to want to include you in what you're there for: playing the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Guerilla marketing, Being.
Thanks Avena, and you're correct. So far I seem only to have figured out that if folks who like it actually talk about it, then it will snowball. Word of mouth. Problem is folks nowadays seem generally to not be into talking about books. People right now are busy with the holiday and family life and haven't much time to read at all until after the holiday.
It is okay though: I really need to get the second volume cobbled together and written, then try and talk my editors into cleaning my verbiage once again and getting that out there so that once the reader finishes the first story the subplots that lead into the next will carry them into it without delay.
I'm new to this: I'll get it hammered into shape. I am only thankful I am not dependent on it for my wherewithal.
My worry is mostly just hoping that folks enjoy the story enough to mention it to others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends on your definition of 'video game'. Text MUDs were earlier. See 'The Cave'.
~~~~~~~
You see a small opening. u,d,e,s~~edit~~actually don't. I don't believe it but I seem to have outlived the search engines. I believe it was an MIT student who created The Cave interactive text adventure on a mainframe long long ago.
When the early "pong" came out on TVs in the late 60s/early 70s most of the concept of text adventures were at colleges. I didi not get to college until later, but I suspect there was limited distribution. THen again, what was happening in small communities before major companies had pong on TV. WHile there may have been a text adventure in the 50's, it was not a public release. There did need to be a pong concept in early 60's to have late 60's implementation.
In my limited experience, the cave was later than some multiplayer star Trek games. (1968)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is good news, as a Dota player there is nothing more detrimental to an otherwise mediocre or good game than when a player starts to abuse other players.
I get good satisfaction when I report trolls and get feedback that action has been taken, but in Dota it doesn't seem that the action taken is enough to deter future bad behavior.
And this hasnt changed for over 2 years so you definatly need punishment for it to work.
Not so sure I agree with the profiling and material reward to good players chosen by a select group as the risk of collusion in order to get the rewards between friends is huge. Take Camelot, there was much collusion between the devs and a certain click of the community in order to balance the game in their favor to the detriment of everyone else in that game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fear the Boot is a podcast that usually discusses tabletop roleplaying games, but also interviewed Mark Kalmes about PFO during the second Kickstarter. In their most recent episode, The Community of Games, they discussed examples of communities which grow up around various games, electronic and tabletop alike. Simple things like saying "GLHF" (good luck, have fun) at the beginning of a game can apparently go a long way toward setting the tone of a competitive online game.
Check it out here: Fear the Boot #326
* (3:34) The video game, Smite, gets us thinking about the culture surrounding various video games, board games, and roleplaying games. How that culture flavors your entire experience with a game. Two articles on the professionals brought in to clean up League of Legends’ community.
Psychology Today - Modifying Player Behavior in League of Legends With Honor
Gamasutra - League of Legends: Changing bad player behavior with neuroscience* (17:35) Ways for controlling the type of community you play with.
* (25:22) Creating community in games that require little or no social interaction.