Spell Sunder and mirror image...

[The Lonesome Wanderer]

Is the barbarian rage power spell sunder affected by mirror image? Sorry if this has been asked, I could not find an answer.

[Archaeik]

Spell Sunder (Su) wrote:

... To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature's CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. ...

RAW, yes, it is affected.

RAI, it shouldn't be effected since Mirror Image functions similarly to "miss chance".

At least that's my estimation.

This seems fairly corner case, so maybe the difficulty spell-sundering it is intentional? I'm not sure how much room there is to interpret that interaction with the spell effect by a hit to a figment counts equally as a hit to the caster, but that would eliminate the mess altogether.

[Nicos]

The text say it pretty cleary I do not see how the RAW could conflict with the RAI, the las line seems to be in there to deal specifically with this kind of things.

[blahpers]

Mirror image, technically, does not provide a miss chance. Hits on an image are still considered hits.

Silly, I know.

[Seraphimpunk]

so since its not a miss chance, its just the standard CMD +5 to sunder mirror image?

[Gohaken]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

so since its not a miss chance, its just the standard CMD +5 to sunder mirror image?

No.

The barbarian is subject to the mirror image effect unless he has True Seeing or some other means of bypassing the illusion (like, say, closing his eyes.... the easiest solution for anyone in general.)

If he doesn't pop an image on his roll, he can sunder the spell.

Better off closing your eyes and having blindfight. Now you defeat mirror image effect and get to sunder the spell 75% of the time.

-Goh

[Kaouse]

I'd vote that the Barbarian should be able to Sunder the spell. The intent is clearly that he should be able to hit you regardless of what spell you have active. Otherwise you could create contrived scenarios where you could say that the spell Invisibility doesn't give a miss chance, it simply bestows a condition which happens to include a miss chance, etc.

[Gohaken]

DM is free to Rule 0 it, or to make either a permissive or restrictive interpretation based on their view of the RAI.

If you are dealing the strict RAW, however, (PFS, etc) you will probably find that Spell Sunder only lets you ignore miss chances specifically, and only those created by spells or SLA's specifically... not any other unfavorable conditions imposed by a spell, such as:

* Mirror Images, a la the example in this thread.

* Boosts to CMD that result from the spell (Sacred Shield, etc)

* Immediate Actions the spell allows to avoid being struck at all (like Windy Escape, Emergency Force Sphere, Contingent Action, Contingency, etc)

* Effects that simply deny the Barbarian the ability to target the creature for his Sunder check, at all (e.g. Sanctuary ) since Sunder Spell specificies that you -must- target the creature in question, if the spell effect is on a creature.

* Effects that make you immune (or extremely protected from) the Sunder combat maneuver specifically (can't think of current example at this moment but there may be one, or certainly could be one in the future)

* Any miss chance caused by an (Su) or (Ex) ability, even if its one that duplicates a spell.
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Also it's worth noting Spell Sunder can't be used on (Su) or (Ex) abilities at all (like a Ninja's Vanishing Trick). Only Spells and SLA's.
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With a very restrictive DM, for any Spell or SLA effects that are not directly visible, audible, or otherwise directly detectable and identifiable by the Barbarian, he or she would probably need to make a Spellcraft check to even know they were there (based on secondary or teriary effects of the spell providing clues to it's existance.)

Examples:

Directly observable/detectable and identifiable as a spell: Stoneskin. Barkskin. Fog Cloud. Righteous Might.

Not directly observable/identfiable (maybe after interaction can be inferred, otherwise need good perception and/or spellcraft, knowledge arcana, etc...): Shield. Mage Armor. Any other invisible force FX. Haste. Summon Monster X (unless you saw the mage doing the summon), most polymorph spells (Beast Shape whatever; unless you saw them doing the polymorph), Unseen Servant (unless you have see Invis) until it moves or does something, the aftereffects of Share Memory on someone who's memory was erased, etc...etc...
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Your mileage may vary.

-Goh
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EDIT:

Quote:

I'd vote that the Barbarian should be able to Sunder the spell. The intent is clearly that he should be able to hit you regardless of what spell you have active.

That is clearly -not- the intent at all, to me or the communites I play in (Philly, DC, Jersey, sometimes NYC, some online.)

To the majority of us, it's clearly intended that the barbarian can Sunder Spells when they can target the spellcaster, are free to make an attack role (so they're not paralyzed or stunned or whatever), and they specifically get to ignore Miss Chances (a term defined specifically in the game). That's it.
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Quote:

Otherwise you could create contrived scenarios where you could say that the spell Invisibility doesn't give a miss chance, it simply bestows a condition which happens to include a miss chance, etc.

That would be a maliciously restrictive interpretation. The spell directly produces the effect that produces the Miss Chance... Invisibility, Darkness, Obscuring Mist, etc.

Miss Chance is a specific game term. Spell Sunder ignores any Miss Chance caused by a spell or spell effect, period. The spell's direct action to produce a condition that causes a Miss Chance qualifies it as an effect Spell Sunder can avoid.

Violating the definition by using an "exaggerrated to absurdity" argument doesn't hold water.

One of the interpretation conflicts that arises in discussions like these are when people collapse specific game terminology (like Miss Chance, Grappled Condition, Petrified condition, Morale bonus, etc) with their own "common sense" definition or interpretation of a word or phrase.

Specific game terms have specific definitions, which the boundaries of their meaning and interactions with other game terms.

-Goh