Fighters are not boring, no class is boring really. What matters is being a roleplayer instead of a roll player if you don't want to feel bored.Remember kids, its not the class with no flavor or interesting qualities fault its boring, its all on you! Nope, can't be the class. If its boring you just don't have imagination.
More seriously, every class uses imagination. Mechanically the fighter does end up going "I full attack!" A lot though. Its not a rollplayer vs. roleplayer argument. No need to turn it into one. Plenty of the people who think its boring roleplay just fine.
The fighter class is flavorless on purpose, fighters are suppossed to be vanilla.
Stating that tha make the fighter boring is silly, you cansay that the lack of flavor make the class boring to you but that is all.
Missed the point completely.
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*Puffs in*
Its not only about full attacking. You have all those juicy feats for a reason. Lots and lots of fun combat maneuvers to take. Archetypes like lore warden just make it even more juicy.
*Puffs out*
*Puffs in*
Maybe, but it was a really bad trade off.It's not clear to me why the Fighter gets less skill ranks than a barbarian. ...Personally, I also think they should have more skill points or at least a few more class skills like perception (guard duty), escape artist (getting out of grapples), and acrobatics (moving around in combat).
But I would guess they felt the need to trade off against the potential of all those feats.
Totally agree. Its just logical that a trained martial warrior would be more skilled than a savage one, if anything fighters should be 4 while barbarians should be 2.
*Puffs out*
Eyes and Ears of the City(+1 perception), Dangerously Curious(+1 UMD)
1 |
Additional Traits,Skill Focus(perception)
Weapon Focus(GS)
2 |Bravery
Power Attack
3 |Armor training
Toughness
4 |
Weapon Specialization(GS)
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy)
Combat Reflexes
6 |Bravery
Step Up
7 |Armor training
Stand Still
8 |
Skill Focus(UMD)
Greater Weapon Focus(GS)
9 |Weapon training(Bows)
Improved Critical(GS)
10|Bravery
Blind Fight
11|Armor training
Pin Down
12|
Greater Weapon Specialization(GS)
13|Weapon training(Close)
Penetrating Strike
14|Bravery
Dazing Assault
15|Armor training
Following Step
16|
Skill Focus(Survival)
Greater Penetrating Strike
17|Weapon training(Thrown)
Stunning Assault
18|Bravery
Improved Blind-Fight
19|Armor mastery
Step Up and Strike
20|weapon mastery(GS)
Greater Blind-Fight
1 |
Toughness, Intimidating Prowess
Combat Reflexes
2 |Bravery
Power Attack
3 |Armor training
Cleave
4 |
Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy)
Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery
Lunge
7 |Armor training
Iron Will
8 |
Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Bows)
Point-Blank Shot
10|Bravery
Rapid Shot
11|Armor training
Deadly Aim
12|
Far Shot
13|Weapon training(Spears)
Leadership
14|Bravery
Mounted Combat
15|Armor training
Mounted Archery
16|
Ride-By Attack
17|Weapon training(Close)
Spirited Charge
18|Bravery
Trample
19|Armor mastery
Improved Iron Will
20|weapon mastery(GS)
Improved Critical(GS)
Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, Toughness, Deadly Aim
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Crusader, Shatter Spells, Farwalker
Totally agree. Its just logical that a trained martial warrior would be more skilled than a savage one, if anything fighters should be 4 while barbarians should be 2.Maybe, but it was a really bad trade off.It's not clear to me why the Fighter gets less skill ranks than a barbarian. ...Personally, I also think they should have more skill points or at least a few more class skills like perception (guard duty), escape artist (getting out of grapples), and acrobatics (moving around in combat).
But I would guess they felt the need to trade off against the potential of all those feats.
1) Combat maneuvers are awful. CMDs are WAY too high after like level 10
2) I find that since fighters are SO invested into combat, they don't have time to learn much else (skill points) very well.
Yes a fighter can be RPed, but he just can't begin to replicate or match just the awesome ability that other martials can do with their class abilities.lawl no.
"Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them."
Except his mechanics do not support it. He cannot match the Cavalier as the Mighty warrior who inspires his comrades to greater power. He can't use sheer power and ferocity to do things beyond that of any mundane with no magical training like the Barbarian (the totems let you do things that are otherwise impossible or magical in natural). He doesn't exude auras of calm and divine fury like a paladin. He literally has NOTHING going for him RP wise when it comes to mechanics that most other classes can't do better short of the weapon master. Literally the only thing the fighter class SPECIFICALLY supports is the weapon master guy. Short of that, other classes can do better/fit better thematically.
what?, seriously? who could consider the lore warden a bad archetype?However, considering the Lore warden (one of the best things to have happened to the fighter since it was released) is considered a poor archetype by Paizo I'm resigned to the fact that it probably won't happen, at least not until the system gets a major makeover.
I honestly dont know that. Its by far my favorite fighter archetype, and I cant see a reason for it to be considered "bad". More skill points, makes combat maneuvers actually viable, how could it ever be considered poor?
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what?, seriously? who could consider the lore warden a bad archetype?However, considering the Lore warden (one of the best things to have happened to the fighter since it was released) is considered a poor archetype by Paizo I'm resigned to the fact that it probably won't happen, at least not until the system gets a major makeover.
Ah, I meant poor as in 'poorly designed' - should have been clearer. SKR stated in the Brawler thread that he was unhappy with the Lore warden because it was too good compared to the original fighter - or any other class. I'll see if I can drag up the quote.
Edit- here we go:
Initial comment on the Lore Warden here.
More detailed follow-up post was made here.
And finally a small note here.
My personal favorite is the second post where he dissects (and pretty much trashes) all the fighter class features.
Except his mechanics do not support it. He cannot match the Cavalier as the Mighty warrior who inspires his comrades to greater power. He can't use sheer power and ferocity to do things beyond that of any mundane with no magical training like the Barbarian (the totems let you do things that are otherwise impossible or magical in natural). He doesn't exude auras of calm and divine fury like a paladin. He literally has NOTHING going for him RP wise when it comes to mechanics that most other classes can't do better short of the weapon master. Literally the only thing the fighter class SPECIFICALLY supports is the weapon master guy. Short of that, other classes can do better/fit better thematically.Yes a fighter can be RPed, but he just can't begin to replicate or match just the awesome ability that other martials can do with their class abilities.lawl no.
"Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them."
Your complaints of what the fighter cannot do are not what the description promises that the fighter can do.
No, no, it can not be. Seriously it just can not be.SKR stated in the Brawler thread that he was unhappy with the Lore warden because it was too good compared to the original fighter - or any other class. I'll see if I can drag up the quote.what?, seriously? who could consider the lore warden a bad archetype?However, considering the Lore warden (one of the best things to have happened to the fighter since it was released) is considered a poor archetype by Paizo I'm resigned to the fact that it probably won't happen, at least not until the system gets a major makeover.
Sorry Nicos, links are posted above :(
Everyone is invested in combat in pathfinder.
Ah yes. But I find that the fighter is the only class that can fully master melee, range, and mounted combat. Throw in intimidating prowess and you even have social skills.
All in all, a deadly and efficient class that needs to carry around potions of protection from evil.
Your complaints of what the fighter cannot do are not what the description promises that the fighter can do.Except his mechanics do not support it. He cannot match the Cavalier as the Mighty warrior who inspires his comrades to greater power. He can't use sheer power and ferocity to do things beyond that of any mundane with no magical training like the Barbarian (the totems let you do things that are otherwise impossible or magical in natural). He doesn't exude auras of calm and divine fury like a paladin. He literally has NOTHING going for him RP wise when it comes to mechanics that most other classes can't do better short of the weapon master. Literally the only thing the fighter class SPECIFICALLY supports is the weapon master guy. Short of that, other classes can do better/fit better thematically.Yes a fighter can be RPed, but he just can't begin to replicate or match just the awesome ability that other martials can do with their class abilities.lawl no.
"Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them."
And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is EXACTLY what you just described. Outside of that role, they are not that well...
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I'm just gonna chime in and say that I, for one, don't find playing a fighter boring. I DO, however, find them boring from a mechanical perspective. It isn't even that I don't like being tanky and still dealing piles of damage, but I like doing something to get that damage. It feels more like I earned it.
Really, when it all boils down to it, I don't like playing because it feels like it's TOO much combat potential. A lot of people seriously overestimate what being combat viable means in this game, and I don't really know why I'd want to play a fighter when I could play anything else and contribute to combat effectively.
Throw in intimidating prowess and you even have social skills.
One social skill is not a social skill nor does it actually give you the ability to crank the skill points for it.
Throw in intimidating prowess and you even have social skills.One social skill is not a social skills nor does it actually give you the ability to crank the skill points for it.
Not dumping int and playing a human give you leverage to pump Intimidate to full. Unlike most people, I don't level perception. I wait until I get an Int bonus item for that. The rest of the fighters skills don't require many points (except ride at higher levels).
You only need social skill ranks when the conversation requires mechanical persuasion.
And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is...
If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.
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And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is...If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.
Except MECHANICALLY he doesn't support it. Mechanically, nearly every other "fighter" trope is done better with the Ranger/Paladin/Cavalier/Barbarian/Monk.
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and playing a human
You shouldn't have to confine yourself to one (or two---skilled alternate racial trait) races to play the class.
and playing a humanYou shouldn't have to confine yourself to one (or two---skilled alternate racial trait) races to play the class.
Tell that to sorcerers.
(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)
Except MECHANICALLY he doesn't support it. Mechanically, nearly every other "fighter" trope is done better with the Ranger/Paladin/Cavalier/Barbarian/Monk.And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is...If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.
The fighter does do exactly what his class description implies.
Tell that to sorcerers.
The human FCB for sorcerers is dumb, but you don't have to be a human to be an effective sorcerer. Your versatility will suffer and you'll have fewer spells known, but more than enough to be competent---probably much more competent than the fighter!
Your response to people saying the fighter cannot do X was to point out that human fighters can do X (though really, half-orc is such a better choice---you give up one feat for +1 to all saves, +2 to intimidate, and a selection of a few exotic weapon proficiencies). If a sorcerer could only function with the human FCB, then you'd have a point. But that's far from being the case.
and playing a humanYou shouldn't have to confine yourself to one (or two---skilled alternate racial trait) races to play the class.Tell that to sorcerers.
(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)
While I agree with you that sorcerers are another class that really should have more skill points, the sorcerer can sidestep the issue and play an excellent skill character by taking the Sage bloodline, which gives her an additional 4~8 skill points per level.
And a fighter with 8 Wisdom is a liability.
The fighter does do exactly what his class description implies.Except MECHANICALLY he doesn't support it. Mechanically, nearly every other "fighter" trope is done better with the Ranger/Paladin/Cavalier/Barbarian/Monk.And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is...If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.
Not even close imo, but that's something a little more subjective. I never had a problem with the flavor, but I always did with what it delivered. Its just... numbers. Boring. +1's and -1's and doesn't come off as heroic, as a guy who fights armies, or as a guy who knows many techniques. Mechanically(in play), its just boring to play like that imo. I mean, I'll do call outs "I should 'You there!' gazing into the eyes of my foe and challenging him with a pointed finger." or pick a favorite weapon "This Glaive is the most important thing in my life" and I mean I do that with every class I have and the fighter in combat is... "I full attack... A lot."
Not all in the same build.Everyone is invested in combat in pathfinder.Ah yes. But I find that the fighter is the only class that can fully master melee, range, and mounted combat. Throw in intimidating prowess and you even have social skills.
All in all, a deadly and efficient class that needs to carry around potions of protection from evil.
Actually I already posted a build like that in this thread...
(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.
The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.
Not even close imo, but that's something a little more subjective. I never had a problem with the flavor, but I always did with what it delivered. Its just... numbers. Boring. +1's and -1's and doesn't come off as heroic, as a guy who fights armies, or as a guy who knows many techniques. Mechanically(in play), its just boring to play like that imo. I mean, I'll do call outs "I should 'You there!' gazing into the eyes of my foe and challenging him with a pointed finger." or pick a favorite weapon "This Glaive is the most important thing in my life" and I mean I do that with every class I have and the fighter in combat is... "I full attack... A lot."The fighter does do exactly what his class description implies.Except MECHANICALLY he doesn't support it. Mechanically, nearly every other "fighter" trope is done better with the Ranger/Paladin/Cavalier/Barbarian/Monk.And I said, The fighter's mechanics ONLY support the idea of the weapon master, which is...If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.
None of that shows how the mechanics fail to deliver on the flavor.
The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.
Except that your saves are bad to begin with....
Except that your saves are bad to begin with....The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.
Sometimes you need to bite the bullet. Your most important save (Fort) is plenty high. Will is just an inconvenience to fail (at least for the fighter). Prot against X potion for yourself and Magic circle potions for allies will eliminate the worse case scenario. (Although the chance of actually failing all the dominate saves in a row is actually fairly low, as was pointed out to me in a monk thread I started)
The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.Generally speaking you don't want to do anything that makes your biggest weakness even bigger. It's a hugely frustrating evening when your character ran away of stood there in a stupor for a fair part of the session and even worse when that character your mate has been playing for the best part of a year is killed when you got dominated.
I prefer a character that can survive the varied rigours of adventuring to an uber-specialist, and a fighter can easily be developed with a bit of variety. I just wouldn't go there with weakening will saves further.
That's why I play a human(and the extra feat). Half-orc lowering cha is also very effective since they have a boost to the only cha skill you care about.
None of that shows how the mechanics fail to deliver on the flavor.
Okay, but there's probably a reason for that. Like me not trying to do that.
I never had a problem with the flavor, but I always did with what it delivered. Its just... numbers. Boring.
Not interested in arguing flavor text. Doesn't actually talk about whether a class is boring or not. Its really another discussion altogether. Do I think they could be less boring? Oh yeah, definitely. In a number of ways.
Taking into account that I always go for 12 or 14, take a trait and a feat for anotehr +3 and the will save is low.The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.
14 wisdom on a fighter is a bad plan. Your will save is your achilles heel, no amount of optimization outside of one particular archetype is going to fix that. It's better to take magical protection against the worse of the will save spells, then gimp your character with stat dumping.
None of that shows how the mechanics fail to deliver on the flavor.Okay, but there's probably a reason for that. Like me not trying to do that.
I never had a problem with the flavor, but I always did with what it delivered. Its just... numbers. Boring.Not interested in arguing flavor text. Doesn't actually talk about whether a class is boring or not. Its really another discussion altogether. Do I think they could be less boring? Oh yeah, definitely. In a number of ways.
Then I'll reiterate. If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.
If you are stuned, paralized, staggered, blinded you are not killing things.
Or dazed, asleep, on another plane, insane, running away in terror, laughing uncontrollably, dancing uncontrollably, fascinated, under a geas...
Sometimes you need to bite the bullet. Your most important save (Fort) is plenty high. Will is just an inconvenience to fail (at least for the fighter). Prot against X potion for yourself and Magic circle potions for allies will eliminate the worse case scenario. (Although the chance of actually failing all the dominate saves in a row is actually fairly low, as was pointed out to me in a monk thread I started)Except that your saves are bad to begin with....The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.As a fighter you r main contribution in a fight is to kill things.
If you are stuned, paralized, staggered, blinded you are not killing things.
Well the first 3 are generally fort saves, the last one is mitigated by blind-fight and is normally a fort save.
Sometimes you need to bite the bullet. Your most important save (Fort) is plenty high. Will is just an inconvenience to fail (at least for the fighter). Prot against X potion for yourself and Magic circle potions for allies will eliminate the worse case scenario. (Although the chance of actually failing all the dominate saves in a row is actually fairly low, as was pointed out to me in a monk thread I started)Except that your saves are bad to begin with....The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.
Fear still his you hard (and bravery does jack crap with your bad saves. Especially if you have a low wis).
Hold Person still hits you.
Confusion still hits you.
NE based spells (bad touch cleric) still hurts you hard.
Illusion spells still screw with you.
Slumber still hits you.
Suggestion still has some fun.
Spells like Magic Jar still affect you.
And that is just the beginning. That doesn't even take into account things like witches....
Sometimes you need to bite the bullet. Your most important save (Fort) is plenty high. Will is just an inconvenience to fail (at least for the fighter). Prot against X potion for yourself and Magic circle potions for allies will eliminate the worse case scenario. (Although the chance of actually failing all the dominate saves in a row is actually fairly low, as was pointed out to me in a monk thread I started)Except that your saves are bad to begin with....The difference between 10 and 8 is 5% for saves.(Also you can drop wis to 8 and bump int to 12 for the same effect. This allows you to play a half-elf OR a half-orc because you still need that racial bonus to strength)Wis 8? only if you want your fighter to miss ahlf of the fights in his career.Fear still his you hard (and bravery does jack crap with your bad saves. Especially if you have a low wis).
Hold Person still hits you.
Confusion still hits you.
NE based spells (bad touch cleric) still hurts you hard.
Illusion spells still screw with you.
Slumber still hits you.
Suggestion still has some fun.
Spells like Magic Jar still affect you.
And that is just the beginning. That doesn't even take into account things like witches....
Sigh here read this thread. I use to have the same opinion as you.
Then I'll reiterate. If the class description doesn't do it for you, then the fighter is not for you. That is not a problem with the fighter or their flavor.None of that shows how the mechanics fail to deliver on the flavor.Okay, but there's probably a reason for that. Like me not trying to do that.
I never had a problem with the flavor, but I always did with what it delivered. Its just... numbers. Boring.Not interested in arguing flavor text. Doesn't actually talk about whether a class is boring or not. Its really another discussion altogether. Do I think they could be less boring? Oh yeah, definitely. In a number of ways.
Whether its boring and whether the flavor text is correct don't actually correlate with one another.
Paralize person, slow, confusion, suggestion, glitterdust, etc come to my mind.Well the first 3 are generally fort saves, the last one is mitigated by blind-fight and is normally a fort save.As a fighter you r main contribution in a fight is to kill things.
If you are stuned, paralized, staggered, blinded you are not killing things.
Oh no LOW level spells. The things that even monks fail saves to at the levels those things are common.