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Having altogether too much time on my hands, I've lately developed an interest in linguistics and constructed languages. Looking at the old Languages of Golarion thread, it appears that there are at least a few other folks around here who share that interest, and have some neat ideas about what the languages of the Pathfinder setting might be like.
I've been toying with some similar ideas of my own, so I figured I'd poke my head up and see if anybody would be interested in collaborating on something a little more in-depth. I think it could be a lot of fun and, if nothing else, it'd be a unique opportunity to geek out on two of my favorite topics (linguistics and fantasy setting lore) at the same time! :P
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I'd love to. I'm a university student majoring in linguistics and geography, so this sort of thing is right up my alley of interest. Mixing that with my great love, Pathfinder?
:o
Awesome! I studied anthopology myself, and never touched linguistics while I was in college. In the past year or so, however, it's become something of an obsession of mine.
To start things off (and for the sake of giving the thread a bump), I figured I'd put together some notes regarding what we've been told about a few of the major current and historical languages of the Inner Sea Region, and some of my speculation about them.
There is also, evidently, at least one variety of academic and liturgical Azlanti still used in Chelish opera and the scriptures of Aroden.
At least two phrases in Azlanti have been published: "Ex Prothex" evidently means "from the first" in (presumably) the variety of Azlanti spoken by Aroden circa 1 AR, and "Saventh-Yhi" is recognizable to modern scholars as meaning "Savith's grave." The contrast between Sav-ith and Sav-enth would seem to indicate some kind of affix and/or apophony at work, and the hyphen might indicate that nouns were compounded together to form possessive constructions.
Thassalonian was written using three distinct sets of "runes," which seem to be mostly logographic in nature. This was evidently a more complex system than the one used to write Azlanti, but it's probably safe to assume that there were many similarities between the two systems.
It is evidently highly conservative, apparently retaining at least the same basic grammatical structure as old Azlanti despite the passage of 10,000 years since the destruction of Azlant. Nevertheless, it is apparently different enough that the grammar of Halfling can be recognizably more similar to that of the first human empire, and it is written with a phonetic alphabet derived from that developed in the Jistka Imperium circa -4,000 AR.
Actually, that ended up being longer than I thought. I do tend to ramble. :P
I'd love to hear anybody else's comments or observations!
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I had a sudden inspiration and started toying with a little grammar. Under this system, Taldane marks nouns for 4 cases:
Nominative (NOM): Subject nouns and pronouns
Accusative (ACC): Direct objects
Genitive (GEN): Marks possession or association
Dative (DAT): Absorbed an earlier Locative case and now marks both indirect objects and nouns describing where the action in a sentence is happening.
There are also three "genders" for nouns, roughly organized in the same fashion as the Thassilonian rune systems:
Positive: Most animate beings, virtues, positive emotions
Negative: Undead, monsters, evil outsiders, sins, negative emotions
Neutral: Most inanimate objects, miscellaneous abstract concepts
"Positive" nouns also have honorific forms in the Nominative and Accusative cases, which are used to show deference to the person or thing described.
Case is marked with suffixes. I'm using IPA notation, but I'll try to make the pronunciation clear:
*NOM (honorific): -odn̩ ("Oden")
*ACC (regular): -ɚ (like the "ur" in "nurse")
*ACC (honorific): -dn̩
*GEN: -n
*DAT: -eɪn (rhymes with "pain"), stress shifts to final syllable
*ACC: -ʌg
*GEN: -n
*DAT: -eɪn, stress shifts to final syllable
*ACC: -Ø (unmarked)
*GEN: -n
*DAT: -eɪn, stress shifts to final syllable
Using these suffixes, we can derive some proper names:
Taldor [taldoɹ] (similar to "tall door")
From the root tald-
Nominative: tald-oɹ
Accusative: tald-ɚ
Genitive: tald-n̩ ("of or belonging to Taldor")
Dative: tald-eɪn (can mean "in" or "from" Taldor)
Aroden [aɹodn̩] (ahh-road-n')
From the root aɹ-
Nominative: aɹ-odn̩
Accusative: aɹ-dn̩
Genitive: aɹ-n
Dative: aɹ-eɪn
Oppara [apaɹə] (ahp-are-uh)
From the roots ap-, "city" and aɹ-, "Aroden
Nominative: apaɹ-ə
Accusative: apaɹ
Genitive: apaɹ-n
Dative: apaɹ-eɪn
Absalom [absalom] (ahb-sahl-ohm)
This one is based off a different dialect of Common, wherein the "p" in ap- has become a "b", the cluster "dn" in the honorifics has been simplified to "n," and "n" has become "m" after the rounded vowel "o."
The roots are ab-, "city" and sal-, "center," and the declension uses the positive honorific, because Absalom is special.
Nominative: absal-om
Accusative: absal-n
Genitive: absal-n
Dative: absal-eɪn
For Taldane letters, I'd consult p.20 of Pathfinder #43 (Carrion Crown pt.1) and p.184 of Ultimate Campaign.
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For Taldane letters, I'd consult p.20 of Pathfinder #43 (Carrion Crown pt.1) and p.184 of Ultimate Campaign.
Interesting! I have to wonder how well the Taldan alphabet fits spoken Taldane. For comparison, English uses the Latin alphabet, which has 5 characters that typically represent vowels. Classical Latin distinguished 5 different vowels, which came in long and short forms, so this system made perfect sense at the time.
English, on the other hand, distinguishes somewhere between 9 and 14 different vowel sounds, depending on the dialect, and as a result the alphabet fails to distinguish between the sounds in, say, "trap" and "palm," or "foot" and "goose."
Since Taldane adopted the Jistkan alphabet, I could see it having a similar problem with spelling. On the other hand, it could be more like ancient Greek, which took the symbols from the Phonecian alphabet but re-assigned many of the sounds in order to fit their own language.
Of course, sound changes over time can spoil even the most elegant of phonetic writing systems...
Dotting this thread for interest. No feedback of my own to contribute just at the moment, but I hope to do so. Great idea!
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Glad people think this is a cool idea! I certainly do. :P
So, before I actually came up with the idea for the Taldan grammar I posted above, I was actually working on some stuff for Azlanti. The relationship of the personal name Savith with the name of the city Saventh Yhi got me thinking, and I ultimately tried to link it to the difference between Taldor and Taldan. The main trust of my idea was that the Azlanti "-th" had turned into the Taldan "-r," which was then dropped after other consonants, like "-n".
I've been playing with other sound changes, and I'm curious to see what people think!
The primary contrast in Azlanti consonants, according to this line of thought, was not between voiced consonants (like "b" or "g") and voiceless consonants (like "p" and "k"), but between aspirated consonants (like the t at the start of "top") and unaspirated consonants (like the t's in "start").
The aspirated consonants subsequently became voiced consonants in some positions (like between vowels) and voiceless fricatives (like the "-th" sound) in others, leading to some confusion among Taldane-speaking scholars as to how they were pronounced.
Accordingly, here's my idea for the origin of "Azlant," the Taldane form of the name of the ancient empire. I'm using IPA symbols, so aspirated consonants are represented with a superscript "ʰ," and "j" here represents the sound made by "y" in English.
The Azlanti name for themselves (in the nominative case) was "Ajlitʰ," plural "Ajlitʰan," meaning, more or less, "the people." The short-hand term they used for the lands they ruled was "Ajlentʰan," meaning "of or belonging to the people."
The element -tʰ- here marks that the noun is animate (rather than an inanimate object), since the noun actually denotes the people, rather than the place.
From that point, the changes are as follows:
1)
Some time relatively early on, probably before the Earthfall, certain sounds in Azlanti were strengthened in between vowels and other relatively "open" sounds, like "l," as a result of speakers trying to make them more distinct. This resulted in "Ajlentʰon" becoming "Aʝlentʰon," in which "ʝ" is like an English "y" made with the tongue closer to the hard palate so that the air passing over it creates the kind of friction you hear in sounds like "f" or "th."
2)
Also early on, the aforementioned change affected the aspirated consonants in Azlanti, so "Aʝlentʰon" became "Aʝlendon."
3)
Over time, the "ʝ" sound grew closer to the following "l," which is made with the tongue near the ridge behind your teeth, which is called the alveolar ridge. "Aʝlendon" thereby became "Azlendon," "z" being another sound made near the alveolar ridge
4)
Some time after the Earthfall, the dialect of Azlanti that would ultimately turn into Taldane underwent a somewhat more unusual, change, similar to something that happened in the development of the Germanic languages. Vowels mutated to be more similar to the next vowel in a word, such that "Azlendon" became "Azlandon." The rationale is that "o" and (in Azlanti) "a" are both "back" vowels, whereas "e" was a "front" vowel.
5)
A more radical change, which likely took some time to complete, was the "reduction" of vowels in unstressed syllables. In "Azlandon" the stress falls on the syllable "Az-," so the original vowel their remains intact. The reduction is most pronounced in the last syllable, where the vowel basically disappears, and the word becomes "Azlandn" or "Azləndn," where "ə" is sort of an "uh" sound like at the end of "sofa."
6)
As the grammar of Proto-Taldane approached it's present form, the "-n" at the end of "Azlandn" was misinterpreted as the genitive suffix "-n," leading to the invention of the neutral nominiative form "Azland."
7)
Finally, as has occurred several real-world languages, the final voiced consonant -d in the accusative form becomes devoiced to -t, a change here accompanied by an extension of the cluster of voiced sounds "-ən-" to compensate, bringing it closer to the original "-an-." Thus, we arrive at "Azlant," for which the nominative form would actually be "Azlandə" or "Azləndə."
Thassilonian, by this line of thinking, was actually a fairly conservative descendant of the earliest Azlanti language, retaining some sound distinctions that had been lost in Azlanti by the time of the earthfall. Among these were a set of "voiced aspirated" or "breathy-voiced" consonants, similar to one of the sets of consonants reconstructed for Proto-Indo-European.
The Thassilonian elite referred to themselves as "Tʰantʰon Gʰin-Alintʰ," roughly "Gʰin's good people." "Gʰin," of course, would ultimately be known to history by his Taldanized name "Xin." In the same mode as their Azlanti forebears, they called their land "Tʰantʰon Gʰin-Alantʰ," "of or belonging to Xin's good people."
From there, the changes were as follows:
1)
Some time early on, Thassilonian velar consonants (consonants pronounced with the back of the tongue at the soft palate like "k" or "g") became palatalized (moving toward the hard palate so that they sort of glide into a "y" sound) before the vowel "i" and the consonant "j." "Gʰin-" thereby becomes the palatalized "Gʲʰin-."
2)
Aspirated consonants in late Thassilonian underwent many of the same changes as their Azlanti counterparts, possibly as a result of survivors from the two fallen empires seeking shelter with one another. Thus, "Tʰantʰon Gʰin-Alantʰ" became "θandon ʑin-Alan," where "θ" is like the "th" in "thigh" and "ʑ" is similar to the sound made by the "s" in "fusion," but sliding more in the direction of "y," if that makes any sense.
3)
As the language that would give rise to Varisian and Shoanti continued to change, the individual elements of "θandon ʑin-Alan" gradually lost their meaning, and it became the mythical lost land of "θandonʑinalan."
4)
"θandonʑinalan" is quite a mouthful (even for a Varisian), so over time it lost syllables. Although it was likely never pronounced as such, if one takes into account only the vowel reductions, the name becomes "θandnʑɪnlan." The "a" in the final syllable "lan" may actually have been lost like the "o" in the second syllable, and then added in later to accord with the rules of pronunciation in Varisian.
5)
The nasal sounds in "θandnʑɪnlan" were lost when they came before a voiced consonant, resulting in "θadʑɪlan."
6)
The "dʑ" in "θadʑɪlan" merged into a single sound, called an "affricate," similar to the English "ch" sound or the Japanese "ts." Because Varisian probably has many colorful dialects, the behavior of palatalized sounds like "dʑ" probably varied, much as in the real world Slavic languages. In the dialect from which Taldane borrowed the word, the "ʑ" probably mutated to be closer to the "d," resulting in "θadzɪlan," which then "weakened," becoming simply "θazɪlan."
7)
"z" is a relatively uncommon sound in Taldane, so it was easy for an early traveler or scholar to mishear or misreport "θazɪlan" as "θasɪlan," and thus the present form of the name came to be.
Hi, though this thread is almost a year old with only a few posts, I just noticed it now as I'm new to Pathfinder. But yes, if you are still working on this project privately, I would like to help.
For the demihuman languages, like Elvish, Dwarvish, and Orcish, since Tolkien has already done so much excellent work on his own languages that haven't seen much use outside of very dedicated fan circles, I'm using those (Sindarin, Khuzdul, Black Speech) for my own campaign. I will note that Tolkien also had some other languages that may be worth tracking down for the more exotic non-human languages: Valarin for Celestial, and Entish for Sylvan.
Anyway, if you are still working on this, I would like to join and help. If you are not, I'd like to know if you've detailed privately more than what is in your posts here so that I can adopt, adapt, and expand on your work.
Thanks!
Dot!
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Tod!
--C.
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Before hammering out the linguistics for each language, it might be a good idea to establish the genetic relationships between them so that it would be easy to derive one language from another through regular sound shifts and external influences. So I put together a rudimentary family tree here.
I'm by no means familiar with all of the material so I welcome comments.
I'd like to touch on some difficult to resolve issues in published material.
Cheliax ostensibly also speaks Taldane, though it's reasonable to assume they developed their own dialect. However Cheliax and Taldor place names are nothing like each other.
One phrase in Azlanti used in Cheliax found in published material is "Ex Prothex", while another quoted above is "Saventh-Yhi". These two are also nothing like each other.
The designers of Cheliax, it's safe to assume, were inspired by Latin, sprinkling -ax and -ex endings into proper nouns that are not found in Taldor. And "Ex Prothex" uses the Latin preposition "ex" quite literally, and the Greek root "proto-" meaning first with a Latinate suffix -ex added on. Whereas "Saventh-Yhi" is not Latinate at all.
So we have the task of reconciling completely invented Taldane-Azlanti morphemes with ones that are obviously inspired by real world Latin.
Before hammering out the linguistics for each language, it might be a good idea to establish the genetic relationships between them so that it would be easy to derive one language from another through regular sound shifts and external influences.
Along those lines, it might be useful to create a language "map"; essentially, just a political map of Golarion, but showing language groups and overlaps rather than political borders. That way you could also include isolated linguistic groups easily.
Before hammering out the linguistics for each language, it might be a good idea to establish the genetic relationships between them so that it would be easy to derive one language from another through regular sound shifts and external influences.Along those lines, it might be useful to create a language "map"; essentially, just a political map of Golarion, but showing language groups and overlaps rather than political borders. That way you could also include isolated linguistic groups easily.
This was kind of done by a user named Lu-ming here.
It does not show areas of overlap, though. That would mostly occur in the north with the nomadic tribes, and I'm not familiar enough with their general areas of habitation and migration patterns yet to ink out the exact patches. Perhaps one day :).