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I'll admit it. The first time I saw the "adventurers are really just murder hobos" thing, I thought it was humorous and had just enough of a kernel of truth in it to make the humor relevant.
But since then the meme has become so pervasive that the idea that adventurers are "murder hobos" has come so far that it actually has spawned a thread about creating a profession for "murderhobo", and in that thread the concept that most, if not all, adventurers are really just loot-grubbing, shoot-first, wandering killers seems to be accepted at face value.
Well, I think it's time to stand up and defend my hobby.
I've played this game for decades, and have played every alignment, in parties composed of every alignment and I have not once played a character, or played in a group, that would fit the general description of "murder hobo."
Even my evil characters.... heck probably ESPECIALLY my evil characters, have a much more diabolical scheme they are pursuing than randomly wandering around killing creatures and taking their stuff.
For my good/neutral characters I cannot think of a single time that my character has been part of any sort of wandering group of malcontents seeking to pillage the villages of other sentient creatures just because they are green.
The vast, vast majority of my characters have been part of a group of characters that have received some lawful designation to go and do something about some threat the town, city or kingdom is under. And it is pretty rare even then for my characters or groups to simply loot and pillage the villages randomly.
I have mentioned here before that it is my general practice when playing good characters to return captured loot to the proper authorities for distribution. I can't even remember the number of side quests my parties have taken to return a precious heirloom to the family of the murdered victim we have found in a goblin or kobold lair. One module that we did ended up with the party recovering an absolute treasure trove of stolen items, probably tens of thousands of gold worth. We loaded up all we could in a cart and hauled it to town, and then brought the townspeople back to the lair to recover the rest. We received a decent reward and the goodwill of the townspeople for our efforts.
While it is certainly possible to play the game as "murder hobos" and no doubt lots of people do play it that way, all of my groups have always taken their role as heroes seriously and have attempted to be heroic in their actions.
Now, having said that, when I do play an evil character, I have no problem with "murder hoboing" actions, but in general I have other goals that are put at risk by that sort of behavior. The number of times any of my characters has simply roamed through a village of any sentient creatures and slaughtered them indiscriminately for the explicit purpose of taking their stuff to enrich my character could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Or maybe even one finger.
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I think the problem is that the game actively encourages that sort of behavior. By making money == power, and far and away the most efficient way to get money in game is to kill things and take their stuff, it not only encourages people to be murder hobos, but it penalyzes the character that might not want to loot corpses, or rob graves.
I am currently working to resolve this in my game by removing the link between money and permanent magic items, and replacing the vast majority of them with in character bonuses you can choose from as you level. So if you want to play a sane character who doesnt just want to kill all the things, you can without having your character suffer mechanically for it. You might find some coin about in my game, but there are no 'loot drops' as the kids these days are so fond of.
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Koloktroni, I concur that the game rewards such behavior.
In fact this came up recently in our Carrion Crown campaign. I now run my games without XP. I no longer even think of XP as any sort of motivation for my character. I would like to say I never did, but when I first started playing the game decades ago, I will admit that the acquisition of XP was an important thing for my game play.
Our Carrion Crown GM is running the campaign "by the book" which includes gaining and leveling up by XP. So at one point in the game (and I won't be specific to avoid spoilers) we were in a position where we had some activity that seemed to fit our group's overall purpose in protecting the town, but as I suggested that we do that activity, one of the players said "well, I don't see any point to doing that since we won't get any XP and the GM has said there's no treasure for it."
I managed to convince that player that our characters were not motivated by the pursuit of experience points and that it was consistent with our agreement with the town that we do the activity, so we did. But there for a moment the whole "what's the point of doing it if we don't get XP or treasure" reared its head, and I do think that is a problem with the way the game rewards certain morally questionably actions while not rewarding morally appropriate actions.
But, as I said, we eventually avoided that temptation and did the heroic thing anyway. And I like to think that's not uncommon in this hobby.
okay i may be out of my league here......
I think some of it comes from the menal disconnect of organized play.
We have all "saved the world"
I dont know if in organized play, you have been given equipment to save the world.
OR it seems that the PFS is a theives guild that collects loot, and never distributes it out. Which describes the concept of murdehobo?
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Franco, the only organized play I have ever done was a short campaign when 4e first came out. I can't speak to how PFS play is pursued. I will say that I would play the same way if I were in a PFS campaign, and if pursuing actual heroism in PFS play is actively discouraged either by the GM or the other players, I'd just stop playing PFS.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Abstract loot systems like that of The One Ring go a long way toward mitigating the looting mentality.
Treasure is a long-standing trope of the genre, though. Especially monster treasure. Plus it feels nice to most players when overcoming the risks results in tangible rewards. For beer-and-pretzels kinds of groups, kill-loot-level is a perfectly acceptable way to play. It's probably not as satisfying for more in-depth groups.
I'm picking up what you're putting down, though. I can't recall any character I've played that could be described as a "murder hobo." I think the term's probably overused, sort of like "broken."
Is this a joke?
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I don't think it is that many players intentionally play the game in a "murderhobo" style. I think the joke is that even well-intentioned law-abiding adventuring often comes to resemble murderhoboery.
Your young adventurer starts out wanting to save the village. The Lord sends him and his friends off to kill the ogre. As compensation, they take a share of the Ogre's loot. It's better than the town having to pay them. While killing the Ogre, they discover a greater threat. They head off to take care of it and end up with its loot. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I don't think that murderhobo implies that you are killing innocents to take their stuff, but that fullfilling quests and saving the world usually entails two things: moving around a lot taking odd jobs (by definition, being a hobo) and that the jobs involve killing things (murder).
Of course, there are campaigns that don't fit this mold, but this is sort of the standard trope. The Fellowship of the Rings didn't spend much time at home and they sure killed a lot of things.
A friend of mine described it as:
Killing things gives you magic points (XP) that you can use to get better at killing things. You end up fabulously wealthy, but that stuff is mainly used on killing things, so you're trapped in a cycle. Until you retire, but you usually don't want to.
I think it's a derogatory reference to "pure dungeon-crawling" campaigns with little RP, or to chaotic stupid PCs who act arrogant because it's difficult for a DM to control them in-game.
(Should be easier with the NPC Codex. Just grab some higher-level obviously good-aligned NPCs.)
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If your character is acting like a murder-hobo, you have no one to blame but yourself.
In my Razor Coast game, I have a cleric of the Turtle who gives away gold to the local temple of quell, in excess of thousands.
When they rescued a child and returned her to her parents, he turned down the gift they offered in return and gave them money instead.
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Kthulthu, if you "revel in your murder-hoboness" you better be an evil character.
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If your character is acting like a murder-hobo, you have no one to blame but Cosmo
Fixed that for you.
I can't say I've had to deal with the 'murder-hobo' mentality, but I definitely have players who don't trust any NPC. They want to kill anyone who gets in their way because obviously that guy is part of the secret conspiracy.
Lodge owner who doesn't want let random unexpected armed guys into the lodge? Obviously a villain.
Vampire hunter wanting to help the players by directing them to a contact? Obviously a villain wanting them to walk into a trap.
Shop owner that doesn't know anything about anything (because the PC got a 3 on gather info)? Obviously in on it and intentionally trying to block the party so some physical persuasion is necessary.
Mayor that wants to pay the players to go find some missing people but not to let the sheriff know because the law man may be part of the conspiracy? Obviously go straight to the sheriff and kill him and his deputies and ransack their homes for evidence.
Luckily this is only one or two of the five person party... and, unfortunately, it is quite often that NPCs are there for nefarious reasons so I can't fault his metagaming concepts.
Then I read stories of other gaming groups where the party goes into town, the sheriff tells them to stop hassling the bartender for information, so the party kills the sheriff, the bartender, the other police, the farmers that saw it, and burn the bar down. But the party isn't evil, see, it was all the sheriff's fault for provoking the incident!
So yes, the term 'murderhobo' exists for a good reason. It isn't true for every party, or even the majority of them, but it definitely happens in enough cases otherwise the term wouldn't have existed.
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I hate the term Murderhobo. I hate it with a passion because it paints adventurers in a bad light. While some are going to be mercenaries for all intents and purposes, most players in my experience play their characters as heroes. There is a "kill the monster and take it's stuff" mentality but not to the point where I would use such a derogative nickname.
Mainly I have seen the term come from PFS. The Society (not the organised play society) is not represented as it is in the source materials. Under PFS the Pathfinders and, due to the nature of some scenarios, the characters, are represented as unscrupulous thieves and agents rather than the lore keepers and archaeologists that the society is shown to be in the game books. PFS plays more like the Aspis Consortium is portrayed.
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I personally would not describe the Fellowship of the Ring as "murder hobos." They were on a sacred quest and mostly tried to avoid combat until it was thrust upon them. They certainly didn't wander aimlessly around taking odd jobs here and there, they had specific objectives at all times, in fact you could say Frodo was under an actual geas.
My issues with the use of the term "murder hobo" is that it is usually applied indiscriminately to any PC group as if it is a common occurrence for even good aligned parties to simply roam around killing things and taking their stuff.
I really have not played in games where that dynamic is followed. In the instances where my groups have killed things, there has always been a good reason, and it has usually been provoked. My characters and groups also don't view innocent sentient beings as a source of loot. Well, most of my groups. We have had some players on occasion to do seem to have that sort of attitude, but that seems to change as they adopt our table mores, which generally don't include "murder hobo-ness".
I am sensitive to the fact that these boards are probably read by more than a few lurkers looking to see if playing Pathfinder is an activity they, or their children, should get engaged with. The casual acceptance of the concept that Pathfinder is generally a game about murder hobos is probably not the image we should want to project to people who are not "in on the joke". Not if we want the hobby to be inclusive and attract people by virtue of its positive aspects.
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Oh, and I am well aware of the difference between "slander" and "libel." But the reality is that people understand "slander" to be used colloquially and casually to describe both, where "libel" is not generally understood to be used that way. And I didn't want to call this thread "The "Murderhobo" slander/lilbel..." just because I didn't feel it was necessary.
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I once gave one of my party members the moniker 'Super Forest Hobo'. My character didn't know what a druid was, but figured that anyone who lived at the beach in a shack they'd built out of driftwood was a Hobo, and he claimed to have these weird Foresty powers that he used to fight loggers, so it just seemed to make sense.
At the time I didn't understand why they thought that was so funny...
I think a big part of the problem is GMs who seem to hate to let a statblock go to waste. There have been multiple times I tried to talk my way out of an encounter, only to have my skill checks auto-fail so we could get another combat in.
And don't get me started on the other thread going on right now, where GMs are steadfastly defending their right to have NPCs charge into battle at the sight of a little finger-waggling from the wizard...
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I personally would not describe the Fellowship of the Ring as "murder hobos." They were on a sacred quest and mostly tried to avoid combat until it was thrust upon them. They certainly didn't wander aimlessly around taking odd jobs here and there, they had specific objectives at all times, in fact you could say Frodo was under an actual geas.
My point was really that Murderhobo has a couple applications. It can be applied to indiscriminate or barely discriminate killing for the acquisition of wealth. But it also applies to the default adventurer's lifestyle, regardless of his/her intentions.
The Fellowship of the Ring was definitely on a sacred and critical quest to Destroy the Ring of Power. Along the way the they tackled these side quests.
* Clear the Balrog from the Mines of Moria
* Rescue Pippin and Peregrine from the clutches of orcs
* Free Theoden from the influences of Saruman and Wormtongue
* Remove Saruman from his tower and seat of power in Isenguard
* Lift the siege on Gondor
* Protect the people of Rohan in Helmsdeep
* Remove the haunting from the Pass of the Dead through the White Mountains.
My point was that even though characters in a well-crafted campaign don't wander around aimlessly, the nature of the business is still often that of transient violence. I think the term is funny because it often applies even when you have the best of intentions.
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Sweater, I pointed out in my original post that my initial reaction to the term was that it was clever and had enough of a kernel of truth to it that it resonated with the community.
My issue is that the term seems to be becoming pervasive and is used casually as if everyone simply accepts the concept that playing Pathfinder is essentially pretending to be a bunch of greedy serial killers.
If I'm a parent reading these boards to see if I want my kids to play this game, my reaction to that sort of assumed amorality and needless violence is likely to be that maybe my kids shouldn't play after all.
Anyway, probably pointless tilting at windmills again. Memes have their own inertia and this attempt to deflect the trajectory of this one is probably doomed to fail.
But I at least had to make one attempt to stand up and defend the hobby and the way I play the game against the perception that we all just like to kill innocent beings and take their stuff.
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My point was really that Murderhobo has a couple applications. It can be applied to indiscriminate or barely discriminate killing for the acquisition of wealth. But it also applies to the default adventurer's lifestyle, regardless of his/her intentions.
What happened to just calling them adventurers?
But since then the meme has become so pervasive that the idea that adventurers are "murder hobos" has come so far that it actually has spawned a thread about creating a profession for "murderhobo",
Just throwing it out there, but I don't think there's a thread about that going atm.
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Adamantine,
I am probably still in the initial stage of thinking it is too true and funny to consider any ramifications on the hobby in general. Even though I've been playing Table Top RPGs since way before we had to put the Table Top in front of the RPG, I only came across this term a couple months ago.
I also think that being a murderous hobo for a while is a common, and not necessarily bad, part of gaining role-playing maturity. You learn the system killing things and taking their stuff. When you become system-fluent, you will naturally become bored with this approach and progress towards more story-line and character development. In other words, it is harder to stay in character when you have to thinking about the mechanics too much.
In short, "Let the murderhoboery commence! They'll work it out of their systems."
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As long as we do not conflate a "murderhobo" with a generic "Hobo" I'm okay with the moniker
As a little research has turned up what appears to be an ancient Paladin Society Code of Honor
(This list of rules was, apparently, voted upon by a collection of Hobos in the late 1800's)
Hobo Code
Decide your own life, don't let another person run or rule you.
When in town, always respect the local law and officials, and try to be a gentleman at all times.
Don't take advantage of someone who is in a vulnerable situation, locals or other hobos.
Always try to find work, even if temporary, and always seek out jobs nobody wants. By doing so you not only help a business along, but ensure employment should you return to that town again.
When no employment is available, make your own work by using your added talents at crafts.
Do not allow yourself to become a stupid drunk and set a bad example for locals' treatment of other hobos.
When jungling in town, respect handouts, do not wear them out, another hobo will be coming along who will need them as badly, if not worse than you.
Always respect nature, do not leave garbage where you are jungling.
If in a community jungle, always pitch in and help.
Try to stay clean, and boil up wherever possible.
When traveling, ride your train respectfully, take no personal chances, cause no problems with the operating crew or host railroad, act like an extra crew member.
Do not cause problems in a train yard, another hobo will be coming along who will need passage through that yard.
Do not allow other hobos to molest children, expose all molesters to authorities, they are the worst garbage to infest any society.
Help all runaway children, and try to induce them to return home.
Help your fellow hobos whenever and wherever needed, you may need their help someday.
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But since then the meme has become so pervasive that the idea that adventurers are "murder hobos" has come so far that it actually has spawned a thread about creating a profession for "murderhobo",Just throwing it out there, but I don't think there's a thread about that going atm.
Wait... whut?
Not even this one, which is actually TITLED: "Profession: Murderhobo" which has specifically asked about how to create the profession within PFS so it can be used as a means to acquire wealth using the profession rules?
Since you have been a participating member of that thread, Sin, I will have to assume that you will resort now to some rhetorical or semantic defense of your assertion that there is no current thread about making murderhobo a profession in spite the the thread literally TITLED that.
Oh well, now the rhetorical/semantic games begin...
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What happened to just calling them adventurers?My point was really that Murderhobo has a couple applications. It can be applied to indiscriminate or barely discriminate killing for the acquisition of wealth. But it also applies to the default adventurer's lifestyle, regardless of his/her intentions.
The term was co-opted by real life people into extreme hiking, camping, etc...
Perhaps we should call our characters Table Top Adventurers
I appreciate your points, Adamantine Dragon, and I agree. My question is: What solutions do you offer? Perhaps you could use your observations to suggest ways for me, a novice-GM, to promote anti-murderhobo roleplaying and player attitudes. I'd like to learn from your experience.
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It still seems to be a valid reflection of a game system where adventureres break into mosters homes, kill them, and take their hard earned loot.....
But i am not going to worry about it tou much. All of my characters that i have played good, bad, ugly have scooped up that loot and bought better toys....
All in all its just a game.
Wildebob, I actually recommend not avoiding "murderhobo" as a simple "how-to" for novice GMing. Practice the mechanics of combat, awarding wealth as monster treasure, and so forth. Once the grisly bits of the game are relatively mastered (you can always get better, btw) then try your hand at more story-driven campaign concepts.
It will probably start to happen on its own, without even consciously deciding to develop that way.
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Wildebob, I suppose my own approach is to lead by example. I am frequently the person in our group that points out behavior that is bordering on the less than heroic. I then attempt to lead by example if I am a player, or I point out that behavior has consequences if I am the GM.
For example, if I am the GM and the players recover loot from the bandit party that includes a rare locket inscribed "To Sam, with love from Rosie", if they come back to town and attempt to pawn it off, instead of at least looking for Rosie or Sam, it is quite possible that the pawnbroker or town jeweler might well know Rosie, and inform the group that since Sam's murder, Rosie has been struggling mightily to raise her young son and that the locket would be a great blessing for Rosie, either to remind her of her beloved murdered Sam, or to sell it herself to allow her to send young Frodo to wizard school or something.
Then it's up to the party whether they want to "do the right thing" or not. It is very rare that the party, when made aware of the situation, does not say "Well, where can we find this poor lass and return her locket to her?"
If the loot is always some generic pile of coins and gems, the PCs really don't have opportunities to display such altruistic behavior, so I make sure my loot piles have those opportunities.
But since then the meme has become so pervasive that the idea that adventurers are "murder hobos" has come so far that it actually has spawned a thread about creating a profession for "murderhobo",Just throwing it out there, but I don't think there's a thread about that going atm.Wait... whut?
Not even this one, which is actually TITLED: "Profession: Murderhobo" which has specifically asked about how to create the profession within PFS so it can be used as a means to acquire wealth using the profession rules?
Wasn't asking how to do so, was asking if it was okay to just write it down and use it as the day job check. In PFS Its just something you roll at the end of each scenario for a bit of extra gold which are ideally spent on small consumables, dining, bribes, etc. Sometimes people write in something they think will make a bit of a laugh or an inside joke. All they had to do was write down hobo and put a point in it to get the money. Not much of a 'how to' to it.
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Really, the thread AD referenced did evolve from whether it was an acceptable Profession to how to look at it to make it an acceptable Profession (if one were of the mindset it was unacceptable) and as such I think it fit AD's description. Give it a rest with the "letter of the law" approach to every aspect of the game or discussion thereof (within PFS discussions, go for it, outside, not so much).
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I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a joke, for gods' sake.
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I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a joke, for gods' sake.
Last I checked, this entire endeavor with all it's millions of words of discussion is a game, for god's sake.
The goal of this discussion is to KEEP the term a joke, because it has been evolving into a gaming meme. It sort of ceased being technically a "joke" when people started coming up with ways to incorporate it into PFS play, which is essentially making it part of the game.
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I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a joke, for gods' sake.Last I checked, this entire endeavor with all it's millions of words of discussion is a game, for god's sake.
The goal of this discussion is to KEEP the term a joke, because it has been evolving into a gaming meme. It sort of ceased being technically a "joke" when people started coming up with ways to incorporate it into PFS play, which is essentially making it part of the game.
Except no one is doing that.
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Except no one is doing that.I can't believe that you all are discussing this with a straight face. The term is in itself a joke, for gods' sake.Last I checked, this entire endeavor with all it's millions of words of discussion is a game, for god's sake.
The goal of this discussion is to KEEP the term a joke, because it has been evolving into a gaming meme. It sort of ceased being technically a "joke" when people started coming up with ways to incorporate it into PFS play, which is essentially making it part of the game.
Repetition is the key to rhetorical success Sin. If you can say it more frequently than people feel like refuting it, you'll eventually win. It's like politics.