Count me with the group that doesn't want spontaneous casting. They don't need to be worse at any more things.
You know...in some ways, the spontaneous casting could actually prove to be a boost to the hunter's overall effectiveness and power level. The ability to repeatedly crank out buffs and heals on herself or her companion would give both of them a lot more combat durability and potential.
For heals a wand of cure light will generally work just as well and be very cost effective. It does seem that healing is very much needed for the animal companion but I wouldn't want to see a large portion of the druid (and ranger if they do add support for some spells) list go unused because the spells are too situational.
You know...in some ways, the spontaneous casting could actually prove to be a boost to the hunter's overall effectiveness and power level. The ability to repeatedly crank out buffs and heals on herself or her companion would give both of them a lot more combat durability and potential.For heals a wand of cure light will generally work just as well and be very cost effective. It does seem that healing is very much needed for the animal companion but I wouldn't want to see a large portion of the druid (and ranger if they do add support for some spells) list go unused because the spells are too situational.
Okay, better idea plus a compromise! The hunter is a spontaneous caster with the bard spells per day/spells known, but they have one extra spells per day slot per level in which they can prepare one spell.
Like this:
1st: 1+1
2nd: 2+1
3rd: 3+1
4th: 3+1 1+1
...and so forth.
That would give them the spontaneous casting they so desperately need for combat-effectiveness, while still leaving them a little wiggle-room for utility. Not only would that solve both issues and be a huge benefit to the class, but we don't have that with any class in the game! :)
I'm ambivalent on Spontaneous vs Prepared casting, though I don't really like Prepared casters at all.
I DO think the focus should be more on the AC, with the Hunter as support for his ultrabuff murder monster of an Animal Companion...or at least within reason. He doesn't need to be so specialized in the AC that he's basically "Animal Companion with a Hunter cohort" like the Summoner often seems.
Animal Focus' permabuffs are a step in the right direction here, and the Teamwork Feats are too to an extent.
However, it's still missing something. Like a good spaghetti sauce you forgot to put bay leaves in, it just doesn't taste quite right.
Spontaneous casting might be a good "Power trade-off" for giving significant boosts to the Animal Companion. Bigger, stronger, faster, meaner...and smarter than a normal animal.
Do you have a tiger? NO. You have THE Tiger, as a Hunter. The biggest, baddest, most cunning tiger that ever lived (besides another tiger using Hunter, but that's beside the point).
Scaling boosts to Int and Wis should be something built in to them, so they're at average Intelligence (10) by about 13th-15th level (topping out at maybe 12/13 at 20th), able to hold a simple conversation (Int 5?) and follow orders without Handle Animal by about 4th. The Hunter doesn't need to tame his animal, his animal is his friend, and understands exactly what his companion wants.
Faster gain of Str, Dex, and Con, along with size boosts and HP. How this is achieved can be either simple or complex. Simple being, basically "Increased Druid progression", but that would require extension of the chart or a whole new chart just for the Hunter, so maybe not as simple as it sounds.
More complex initially, but probably simpler overall is a suggestion brought up before: Give it some Evolutions.
Not any of the very Supernatural ones (and ones that significantly change your AC's shape...not tentacle wielding tigers with 5 mouths, for example), and probably at a slower progression, but stuff like Improved Natural Attack, size increase, the ability to increase threat range and multiplier on natural attacks, stat boosts, and so on are all good candidates.
Actually, I kinda take back the Int progression for a more power game-y viewpoint...the AC should be able to get Int 13 well before the end game. Because there's nothing sadder than an animal with Grab, or Trip on its bite (poor Wolf) that will never be able to qualify for Improved <Combat Maneuver>.
You know...in some ways, the spontaneous casting could actually prove to be a boost to the hunter's overall effectiveness and power level. The ability to repeatedly crank out buffs and heals on herself or her companion would give both of them a lot more combat durability and potential.For heals a wand of cure light will generally work just as well and be very cost effective. It does seem that healing is very much needed for the animal companion but I wouldn't want to see a large portion of the druid (and ranger if they do add support for some spells) list go unused because the spells are too situational.Okay, better idea plus a compromise! The hunter is a spontaneous caster with the bard spells per day/spells known, but they have one extra spells per day slot per level in which they can prepare one spell.
Like this:
1st: 1+1
2nd: 2+1
3rd: 3+1
4th: 3+1 1+1
...and so forth.That would give them the spontaneous casting they so desperately need for combat-effectiveness, while still leaving them a little wiggle-room for utility. Not only would that solve both issues and be a huge benefit to the class, but we don't have that with any class in the game! :)
An interesting concept and one I'm not wholey against. I don't think they'd create *another* new casting style, but who knows.
What spells do you need so desperately for combat effectiveness from the druid list?
I kinda take back the Int progression for a more power game-y viewpoint...the AC should be able to get Int 13 well before the end game. Because there's nothing sadder than an animal with Grab, or Trip on its bite (poor Wolf) that will never be able to qualify for Improved <Combat Maneuver>.
I honestly don't think that's really needed. Nat Weapon triggered maneuvers already benefit from any weapon bonuses (Focus, Magic Fang, etc), and things like Grab are just NEVER seen in combo with Imp/Grt Grab Feats for a reason I think: they don't need to stack the bonuses/mechanics even further. If further specialization/advanced functionality is wanted, a Nat Wpn/Beastiary-Maneuver specific approach should be it's own special Feat distinct from the normal Imp Maneuver Feats.
...I see some sort of Life Link/HP sharing mechanic via an Archetype...
Perhaps Standard Action for either party to send/pull HPs from the other?
Needed? Definitely not, which is why I put it at the end.
But it would be nice if you wanted to make a party support animal type of deal, especially since your AC gets the almighty size increase that lets combat maneuvers stay competitive at higher levels. Would be an interesting way to vicariously live out your dreams of having a Grappler that works at all levels, especially in combination with the other changes (Huge Great Ape companion? King Kong in da trunk), and make it so animals WITHOUT the Grab/Trip/Etc. qualities can do these CMs without provoking.
But, yes, definitely not needed. It'd just be damn cool. =)
An interesting concept and one I'm not wholey against. I don't think they'd create *another* new casting style, but who knows.
What spells do you need so desperately for combat effectiveness from the druid list?
These are the spells I could see the hunter needing to cast over and over:
1st: cure light wounds, entangle, faerie fire, magic fang
2nd: barkskin, flame blade, resist energy (depending on what animal aspect buff you want to throw or keep on yourself or your companion, bull's strength or cat's grace could also be excellent)
3rd: call lighting, cure moderate wounds, greater magic fang, quench
4th: cure serious wounds, dispel magic, flame strike, ice storm
5th: call lightning storm, cure critical wounds, stoneskin, tree stride
6th: mass cure light wounds, liveoak, transport via plants
What we're looking at here primarily is this: Buff, hinder, heal, group damage, mobility. Buff, hinder, heal, group damage, mobility.
This lets them get the maximum potential out of themselves and their pet, keep their HP up, and gives them a means of dealing with large groups when flanking or skirmishing isn't really viable, as well as providing means of getting in and out of situations as needed.
This is why spontaneous casting serves this class so well. It maximizes the effectiveness of the hunter and her pet in skirmish, group combat, and prolonged combat situations.
Besides spells that already grant them, I just see Class Abilities that can grant things like Grab, Trip quality, along with other appropriate Bestiary abilities. That could be modular/selectable add-ons, OR it could be specific to each Animal Companion type, adding more 'Tiers' to each Animal Companion that are unlocked with Hunter Class Level (not other stacking Companion levels) that grant more uber abilities? That would be exactly the sort of upgrades to the AC that people seem to be wanting to really make it the pre-eminent AC beyond what Druids, etc can achieve. Honestly, I was always baffled why the normal Druid Companions had such limited 'scaling' in that department, they basically all "grew up" completely at 5th/7th level and that was that. In fact, if some new higher level Tiers ARE created, I could see them becoming available to Druids and other Companion Classes via Feats (possibly not at same Class Level as Hunters to maintain Hunter's prestige). E.g. Horses gain Trample. Gorrilla's gain Grab and/or Powerful Blow. Etc. Abilities which replicate Feats that would be very hard to qualify for normally.
Greater Magic Fang lasts 7 hours when you acquire it.
Barkskin lasts 40 minutes when you get it.
Im rather disappointed you'd put Resist Energy on that list rather than the MUCH more useful Communal version. Why not buff the whole party too right?
Quench?
Call Lightning isn't used unless you can control the weather conditions or reasonably expect it(If you were a Prepared Caster). On a Spontaneous one its virtually just for flavor. 9 damage average at 7th level? Even worse, it eats your standard action to do it.
In my opinion, the flavor of the class is the exact opposite. A Hunter is a savvy skirmisher, scouts ahead, knows what she needs in advance and prepares for it.
Greater Magic Fang lasts 7 hours when you acquire it.
Barkskin lasts 40 minutes when you get it.
Im rather disappointed you'd put Resist Energy on that list rather than the MUCH more useful Communal version. Why not buff the whole party too right?
Quench?
Call Lightning isn't used unless you can control the weather conditions or reasonably expect it(If you were a Prepared Caster). On a Spontaneous one its virtually just for flavor. 9 damage average at 7th level? Even worse, it eats your standard action to do it.In my opinion, the flavor of the class is the exact opposite. A Hunter is a savvy skirmisher, scouts ahead, knows what she needs in advance and prepares for it.
40 minutes for barkskin might be only one combat. In fact, it could be only one combat a lot of the time.
As for why quench is one of the best spontaneous spells ever:
- Save people (or yourselves) from a burning building.
- Put out torches in an area for extra stealth.
- Obliterate fire elementals.
- Counter a fireball.
- Snuff out the wall of fire keeping your animal companion at bay.
- Stop a forest blaze.
- Extinguish a burning pit.
- Stop the bridge you're on from burning.
I could keep going with this list. The one time I had access to quench as a spontaneous spell, I used it more than any other spell except cures and direct damage. It is immensely useful. :)
Call lightning is awesome if the weather allows for it, but it could also go in the "one prepared slot" concept, along with greater magic fang. Still, the "heal, hinder, buff, group damage and transport" spontaneous need is very real.
Frankly, as a pure prepared caster, this class is damn-near useless.
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I like the idea of having the spell casting to be spontaneous, to help the hunter if he has bad luck of loosing the animal companion and still make it out alive by using the chosen spells for the day. With prepared spells, the hunter will be worse off in dire situations, without animal companion. To me the high level spells makes sense to be prepared spells as they are powerful magic. The low level spells that the hunter is getting are more utility spells, with little offensive and defensive capabilities. I think having the spells spontaneous will help differentiate from the druid class.
Though some been calling for ranger spells, I fine with the druid 0-6 level list if it spontaneous.
Take a wizard who has a familiar (bonded object), and said familiar is killed, the wizard still able to use majority of abilities without having the familiar. Druid looses animal companion, the druid can still cast spells effectively, wild shape, etc. Hunter looses animal companion, suddenly half the class features become useless, and with difficult spell choice of the day intended for another situation that is not the same as the dire situation the hunter is in to survive.
Sean, please look into the dire situations of the new classes, where the character looses the primary abilities.
Greater Magic Fang lasts 7 hours when you acquire it.
Barkskin lasts 40 minutes when you get it.
Im rather disappointed you'd put Resist Energy on that list rather than the MUCH more useful Communal version. Why not buff the whole party too right?
Quench?
Call Lightning isn't used unless you can control the weather conditions or reasonably expect it(If you were a Prepared Caster). On a Spontaneous one its virtually just for flavor. 9 damage average at 7th level? Even worse, it eats your standard action to do it.In my opinion, the flavor of the class is the exact opposite. A Hunter is a savvy skirmisher, scouts ahead, knows what she needs in advance and prepares for it.
40 minutes for barkskin might be only one combat. In fact, it could be only one combat a lot of the time.
As for why quench is one of the best spontaneous spells ever:
- Save people (or yourselves) from a burning building.
- Put out torches in an area for extra stealth.
- Obliterate fire elementals.
- Counter a fireball.
- Snuff out the wall of fire keeping your animal companion at bay.
- Stop a forest blaze.
- Extinguish a burning pit.
- Stop the bridge you're on from burning.I could keep going with this list. The one time I had access to quench as a spontaneous spell in 3.5, I used it more than any other spell except cures and direct damage. It is immensely useful. :)
Call lightning is awesome if the weather allows for it, but it could also go in the "one prepared slot" concept, along with greater magic fang. Still, the "heal, hinder, buff, group damage and transport" spontaneous need is very real.
Frankly, as a pure prepared caster, this class is damn-near useless.
What if it was the other way around? A single spell known of each level that you could cast spontaneously by dropping a prepared spell. Then you always have that one spell that you can use in every situation, but then have preparations for niche stuff.
Its anecdotal as well, but man that moment when you have just the right spell prepared?
Though some been calling for ranger spells, I fine with the druid 0-6 level list if it spontaneous.
I would also be fine with just druid spells and spontaneous casting. Ranger spells would help even more, but it's not vital.
Take a wizard who has a familiar (bonded object), and said familiar is killed, the wizard still able to use majority of abilities without having the familiar. Druid looses animal companion, the druid can still cast spells effectively, wild shape, etc. Hunter looses animal companion, suddenly half the class features become useless, and with difficult spell choice of the day intended for another situation that is not the same as the dire situation the hunter is in to survive.
+1000 THIS. This is why I want spontaneous casting first and foremost, and then at least some kind of combat style secondmost.
What if it was the other way around? A single spell known of each level that you could cast spontaneously by dropping a prepared spell. Then you always have that one spell that you can use in every situation, but then have preparations for niche stuff.
Still not useful. The only compromise that could possibly work for this class is full spontaneous +1 prepared. One of my group already playtested this class, and now I've playtested it, and prepared is just pure garbage for the hunter. I mean, it was seriously useless.
Believe me, I would not be so adamant, so absolutely 100% supportive and pushing for this change if I didn't think it was 100% necessary. I don't "crusade" for a class change lightly. In the other threads, I've just made suggestions. This is the only class where I'm saying "this needs to happen or it simply does not work".
All I'm saying is that they should put out a spontaneous version, maybe with a combat style added, and let us try it out. Let the people decide if it works for the class.
What if it was the other way around? A single spell known of each level that you could cast spontaneously by dropping a prepared spell. Then you always have that one spell that you can use in every situation, but then have preparations for niche stuff.Still not useful. The only compromise that could possibly work for this class is full spontaneous +1 prepared. One of my group already playtested this class, and now I've playtested it, and prepared is just pure garbage for the hunter. I mean, it was seriously useless.
Believe me, I would not be so adamant, so absolutely 100% supportive and pushing for this change if I didn't think it was 100% necessary. I don't "crusade" for a class change lightly. In the other threads, I've just made suggestions. This is the only class where I'm saying "this needs to happen or it simply does not work".
All I'm saying is that they should put out a spontaneous version, maybe with a combat style added, and let us try it out. Let the people decide if it works for the class.
We have three days left of playtesting. A large change in the spellcasting method is rather unlikely from a time sensitive point of view. I do hope they take careful consideration of it.
The whole druid list is designed for utility, not blasting. Stack buff spells if you need them and get pearls of power, they're cheap.
The class cannot play as a full caster. Spontaneous casting won't change that. This class has to function in combat with the spells as a secondary feature for utility.
Spontaneous casting is bad and incredibly inflexible. Seriously PoP are super cheap when compared against runestones.
Buff their combat capabilities with the pet. Give them features like hammer the gap that work between the pet and the hunter or something, its just not going to be worthwhile to focus too much on casting because the Druid will just hands down be a better class to take.
The whole druid list is designed for utility, not blasting. Stack buff spells if you need them and get pearls of power, they're cheap.
The class cannot play as a full caster. Spontaneous casting won't change that. This class has to function in combat with the spells as a secondary feature for utility.
Spontaneous casting is bad and incredibly inflexible. Seriously PoP are super cheap when compared against runestones.
Buff their combat capabilities with the pet. Give them features like hammer the gap that work between the pet and the hunter or something, its just not going to be worthwhile to focus too much on casting because the Druid will just hands down be a better class to take.
Spontaneous druid casting is something the druid certainly can't offer, however.
Look, let's be practical about this. It's 12/3 now in favor of spontaneous. That alone is reason enough for us to have a spontaneous version of the class to at least playtest. Otherwise, that's not only unfair, but it would also basically say the devs don't care what we want to play. The prepared version has already been presented and tested, now an alternative needs to be tried out. I'm not looking to be argumentative about this, I'm saying that's simply how it is.
Either a majority opinion matters, or it doesn't.
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Erm, "majority opinion" isn't what solely drives changes in a playtest. Demonstration of a problem, flaw, gap in the design, some NEED for the change needs to be pointed out, corroborated, proved, etc. for it to become a possibility.
Making each feature a popularity contest is not a good way to go about designing something.
Would an ability that triggers based on the PC or the AC's health be appropriate? Like if the AC is below 1/4 HP, the PC gets a bonus/boost (like +2 DC to spells or to hit or heals are empowered for a round or two, or something), and if the PC is below 1/4 health, the AC gains a bonus/boost (ie. equiv of haste or some such)?
Or a teamwork feat that does this?
Erm, "majority opinion" isn't what solely drives changes in a playtest. Demonstration of a problem, flaw, gap in the design, some NEED for the change needs to be pointed out, corroborated, proved, etc. for it to become a possibility.
That's exactly what has happened. Most of the votes for spontaneous are based on having played the class. Roughly about 2/3 of the vote is based on playtest, and 1/3 based on preference. That is a proven need. If a bunch of people trying the class and then saying "this needs spontaneous casting" - who make up the majority of replies on the topic - isn't reason enough, then I don't know what is.
That's like saying "all of you are wrong because the three smartest people in this thread say you are" or "if the developers don't see it, our opinion doesn't matter".
Would an ability that triggers based on the PC or the AC's health be appropriate? Like if the AC is below 1/4 HP, the PC gets a bonus/boost (like +2 DC to spells or to hit or heals are empowered for a round or two, or something), and if the PC is below 1/4 health, the AC gains a bonus/boost (ie. equiv of haste or some such)?
Or a teamwork feat that does this?
An emergency, about to die buff? That would be pretty cool. I could also see the class getting what I call a "revenge buff". Like if their animal companion is killed, the hunter gets combat bonuses to kill the opponent that killed her AC.
Erm, "majority opinion" isn't what solely drives changes in a playtest. Demonstration of a problem, flaw, gap in the design, some NEED for the change needs to be pointed out, corroborated, proved, etc. for it to become a possibility.That's exactly what has happened. Most of the votes for spontaneous are based on having played the class. Roughly about 2/3 of the vote is based on playtest, and 1/3 based on preference. That is a proven need. If a bunch of people trying the class and then saying "this needs spontaneous casting" - who make up the majority of replies on the topic - isn't reason enough, then I don't know what is.
That's like saying "all of you are wrong because the three smartest people in this thread say you are" or "if the developers don't see it, our opinion doesn't matter".
So that should be your angle of attack. "Multiple people have made good arguments and have proven my point in playtest". That is a lot more valid than "A bunch of people agree with me", which is what you posted earlier.
Just wanted to point that out. I'm not saying your results are invalid, just that "This is the majority opinion" isn't enough.
I will say though that I think my idea of "spontaneous +1" is probably the best. It's new, it's different, it addresses what the majority wants while still keeping a little bit of prepared utility. Even Scavion thought it could work, and they're in the "3 against" group. :D
Plus it's catchy. "Spontaneous +1". New caster type. Needs a theme song.
So that should be your angle of attack. "Multiple people have made good arguments and have proven my point in playtest". That is a lot more valid than "A bunch of people agree with me", which is what you posted earlier.
Just wanted to point that out. I'm not saying your results are invalid, just that "This is the majority opinion" isn't enough.
Okay...that's a good point. :D
On a side note, what do you think of my "spontaneous +1" idea?
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Please focus on class features. The class is weak because its class features are not going to make anyone go for this class. It doesn't have anything that you can look at in its write up that says, "hey that's cool... wonder how that'll play out"
Instead your trading out full casting and wildshape for animal focus and teamwork feats? PASS, next class please.
On a side note, what do you think of my "spontaneous +1" idea?
I think it's interesting, but not sure if it'll come to pass on a class that's really not spell focused at all.
I think it could be really great, and allow for some wiggle room in the usual Spontaneous straightjacket (though I do love Spontaneous casters, I hate keeping track of what I have prepared from one day to the next), but not sure if the Design Team will go for it, especially when there are more pressing matters at hand with this class (it is currently a more Animal Companion focused Druid...except it sucks at casting comparatively, and it's AC isn't appreciably better, nor is it appreciably better at combat).
Please focus on class features. The class is weak because its class features are not going to make anyone go for this class. It doesn't have anything that you can look at in its write up that says, "hey that's cool... wonder how that'll play out"
Instead your trading out full casting and wildshape for animal focus and teamwork feats? PASS, next class please.
I've been focused on the biggest obstacle first, the real killer, but that's just to make the class even worth the effort of picking it up. Making it more effective is a refinement, and it's sad that we're this far into the playtest and it's not even what most of us consider playable yet. Useless casting, totally reliant on animal companion (which isn't that amazing), no inherent combat ability to support animal companion, nothing but teamwork feats and tons of empty levels. Yes, while teamwork feats do help the hunter and companion in combat, they're situational. Plus, if the AC dies, the hunter is nothing. Less than nothing.
You're definitely right about the class features though. It needs more. It's barely even a class in its current state.
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An emergency, about to die buff? That would be pretty cool. I could also see the class getting what I call a "revenge buff". Like if their animal companion is killed, the hunter gets combat bonuses to kill the opponent that killed her AC.Would an ability that triggers based on the PC or the AC's health be appropriate? Like if the AC is below 1/4 HP, the PC gets a bonus/boost (like +2 DC to spells or to hit or heals are empowered for a round or two, or something), and if the PC is below 1/4 health, the AC gains a bonus/boost (ie. equiv of haste or some such)?
Or a teamwork feat that does this?
Yeah. Just thinking of any ideas for mechanics that have a feeling of a closer link or bond than a druid has, beyond just animal focus.
Something that may address Trogdar's concern that there's not enough new or interesting flavor in the mechanics.
EDIT: There are things in the Wogren Rider PrC from Midnight that illustrate "in tandem" class mechanics between a PC and their AC. Granted those are more mount focused, but the theme of the abilities are worth looking at for inspiration.
Yeah. Just thinking of any ideas for mechanics that have a feeling of a closer link or bond than a druid has, beyond just animal focus.
Something that may address Trogdar's concern that there's not enough new or interesting flavor in the mechanics.
We're all addressing the same problem, really. The fact that the hunter is seriously lacking compared to...well, everything else.
Sure, we don't all agree on the solution, but enough of us have proposed common ideas to where progress could be made.
Sure, at this point throw ideas at the dev's in hopes that something sticks. I mean, aside from natural spell, the druid can even teamwork feats with his companion if he invests some intelligence for it. I don't think any druid would do that because, hey, the companion isn't strong later in the game.
I think that the dev's need to think broken and then maybe they will hit par.
...I think that Precise Companion isn't the greatest class feature and doesn't help the Hunter. This class feature shoehorns the Hunter into being some sort of archer.I agree both that it isn't the greatest class feature and , to a lesser degree, that it shoehorns overly much.
I really hope there will be an archetype that exchanges the ranged combat abilities vs something else.
If this was less of an archer and more of a melee guy I'd already be playing it.I like playing tactical but my groups does play as un-tactical as it gets and thus I thought I'd try this class. But because of the ranged focus I build a slayer instead.
Okay, let's assume the hunter needs an overhaul. We've been trying to do fixes on a class that doesn't even work yet. It needs to be:
- More effective
- Have more distinctive flavor
- Not be totally useless without the AC
- Have have less wasted space
Here's my proposed new version:
Level__Special_________________________________________________
1______Animal companion, animal focus, nature training, orisons, wild empathy
2______Precise shot, track
3______Hunter tactics, teamwork feat
4______Woodland stride
5______Hunter's trick
6______Enhanced companion
7______Teamwork feat
8______Swift tracker, second animal focus
9______Seasoned hunter
10_____Hunter's trick
11_____Teamwork feat
12_____Enhanced companion
13_____Hunter's tactics 1/day
14_____Experienced hunter
15_____Teamwork feat
16_____Hunter's trick
17_____Hunter's tactics 2/day
18_____Enhanced companion
19_____Teamwork feat
20_____Master hunter
- Spell progression is "spontaneous +1", as in bard spells known, and bard spells per day plus one prepared slot per spell level, all using the druid spell list.
- Precise Companion changed to Precise Shot.
- Teamwork feats reduced from 6 to 5.
- Hunter's Trick added. Grants a bonus combat feat.
- Woodland Stride moved down to 4th level.
- Enhanced Companion added. At 6th, 12th and 18th level, the hunter's animal companion gains an usual ability that sets it apart from other animals. These are permanent once chosen. If the current animal companion dies, the next companion can have different enhancements. Choose from the following:
Elevate: The animal companion becomes a partially magical creature. Increase intelligence by +2d6, and it gains the ability to speak and read all the languages the hunter can.
Empower: The animal companion gains the ability to defeat damage reduction as if they were a brawler of equal level to the hunter.
Toughen: The animal companion gains Toughness as a bonus feat, and DR 1/-. This improves to DR 2/- at 12th level, at DR 3/- at 18th level.
(ran out of ideas after that, but you guys get the gist)
- Hunter's Tactics added. At 13th level, once per day, the hunter can grant her animal companion an extra move or standard action. At 17th level, she can do this twice per day.
- Seasoned Hunter added. Grants the hunter and her companion immunity to disease and a +4 bonus on saves against poison.
- Experienced Hunter added. Grants the hunter and her companion venom immunity like the druid and a +4 save bonus against charm effects.
Thoughts? Comments? Opinions?
This class has more self (& companion) buffs than it needs. If my playtest proved anything it proved that. The last thing it needs is more spontaneous spells from a spell list heavy on buffs. If spontaneous casting is added, then either its highest levels of spell access need to be dropped or it needs less spells per day.
The synergy between the companion and the hunter already gives it excellent combat capability. At 7th level the hunter/companion combo in my playtest were averaging 44 points of damage per round. On a good round they were scoring about 72 points of damage per round.
For a 7th level character with a +5 BAB that is plenty of oomph. A combat style would put the class completely over the top. The objective here is to make it as good as a multiclass ranger/druid with its own set of tricks. Not to make it as good as a gestalt ranger/druid. At least, as I understand it, that is the objective.
The teamwork feats provide a level of synergy that neither the druid nor the ranger can accomplish. The hunter in my playtest was only 7th level with a +5 BAB and could easily pull a +16 opening attack bonus without any spells of buffs from other party members. That +16 is before an animal focus by the way. Add an animal focus and some inspire courage and a divine favor to that and you have a total powerhouse who almost never misses even against APL+2-+3 enemies because his total attack bonus would now be above +20 at level 7. And if you revisit the paragraph two above this one it is quite obvious the hunter/companion hits plenty hard as is.
It should be noted that all this was accomplished with only moderate optimization. The hunter in my playtest had no attribute scores below a ten and utilized the popular rapid shot, deadly aim combo. Imagine if this was a dump-stat Hunter with a 7 Int, & 7 Cha. Its attack bonuses would be even higher and when buffed out by other party members as well would approach +25 at 7th level.
This class already has enough goodies. IMHO.
On a side note Baudian and I are planning a solo playtest against a CR 9 Frost Giant later today. We will be sure to post the results both here and in the playtest forum. If I can talk him into it we will also do some other playtesting against other enemies perhaps some who are CR 10.
Okay, I'm actually going to count this like a poll.
In favor of spontaneous casting: Myself, Idar, Neo2151, DarkOne the Drow, KainPen, drakkonflye, Captain K., Quandary, ICPD, Dispari Scuro, Psyren
Against spontaneous casting: Jessie Scott
You know, Galileo tried to convince people the Sun didn't revolve around the Earth. In the end, the majority won out and he was condemned for his speaking out.
I get you're trying to get a consensus, but just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so. I work in Clinical Trials and someone feeling a certain way does not cut it as a decision. We use numbers and analysis.
How exactly does spontaneous casting help this class? Less flexibility, reduced spell casting, and lowered utility. If you really want to talk theme and flavor, a Hunter is ready for anything with a bag of tricks to help them hunt. This means being adaptable to each situation. How can this be accomplished? Letting them have a large spell selection they can change each day (or leaving slots open to fill later in the day).
Please, other than feeling a certain way, enlighten us as to how spontaneous actually helps this class. Personal preferences and feelings are not valid data.
Okay, let's assume the hunter needs an overhaul. We've been trying to do fixes on a class that doesn't even work yet. It needs to be:
- More effective
- Have more distinctive flavor
- Not be totally useless without the AC
- Have have less wasted spaceHere's my proposed new version:
Level__Special_________________________________________________
1______Animal companion, animal focus, nature training, orisons, wild empathy
2______Precise shot, track
3______Hunter tactics, teamwork feat
4______Woodland stride
5______Hunter's trick
6______Enhanced companion
7______Teamwork feat
8______Swift tracker, second animal focus
9______Seasoned hunter
10_____Hunter's trick
11_____Teamwork feat
12_____Enhanced companion
13_____Hunter's tactics 1/day
14_____Experienced hunter
15_____Teamwork feat
16_____Hunter's trick
17_____Hunter's tactics 2/day
18_____Enhanced companion
19_____Teamwork feat
20_____Master hunter- Precise Companion changed to Precise Shot.
I don't have time to offer my opinion on the rest, but Precise Shot needs to be changed entirely to a "Hunter Style" similar to a combat style for Ranger. Giving Hunter precise shot shoe-horns them into a ranged combat style and we really should give players the options. See a previous post of mine about different Hunter themed styles and feats that could be used.
My point is that people are concerned that the hunter PC (rather than the animal companion) is too weak, and switching from "full druid spell list, prepared caster" to "limited druid spell list, spontaneous caster" is a power-down for the hunter PC.
I know I said I'd stay out, but I wanted to ask about this.
Do you feel that a sorcerer is a powered down wizard? I thought the idea was that each was better at different things. The prepared caster shines at utility, being able to handle multiple situations effectively, and a spontaneous caster is more effective at a given situation. If the hunter only cares about a certain situation, combat buffing, they don't actually gain anything by being a prepared caster. It would in my mind be a boost up to give them more access to the few spells they really want. That there are fewer spells to pick from isn't a drawback when the others don't appeal to you anyway.
Ok, back to the shadows.
I get you're trying to get a consensus, but just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so. I work in Clinical Trials and someone feeling a certain way does not cut it as a decision. We use numbers and analysis.
How exactly does spontaneous casting help this class? Less flexibility, reduced spell casting, and lowered utility. If you really want to talk theme and flavor, a Hunter is ready for anything with a bag of tricks to help them hunt. This means being adaptable to each situation. How can this be accomplished? Letting them have a large spell selection they can change each day (or leaving slots open to fill later in the day).
Please, other than feeling a certain way, enlighten us as to how spontaneous actually helps this class. Personal preferences and feelings are not valid data.
I already made two posts about why spontaneous casting is seriously useful to the hunter. It's the "protect/hinder/heal/group damage/transport" method. It's about doing the following things repeatedly:
- Buffing the hunter or the pet's resistances/AC (barkskin, resist energy).
- Healing either of them repeatedly.
- Hindering enemies to give the hunter and pet advantage (entangle, faerie fire).
- Damage enemy groups you can't flank or skirmish easily (flame strike, ice storm)
- Spells for getting out of situations (quench, tree stride).
These are the kind of spells I use over and over and over. In fact, when I did play druid, I wound preparing multiple copies of many of these spells, just because they were so useful. That's my primary reason for spontaneous casting.
My secondary reason is that a number of druid spells simply aren't that useful for the hunter, and she doesn't have enough spells per day as a six-level prepared caster to warrant using up precious slots on anything overly creative anyways. I would be more likely to take one or two creative utility spells as a spontaneous caster than I ever would with a tiny number of prepared spells. As I said, I've played it, one of my group had played it, lots of people here in the forum have played it, and prepared spellcasting is ten shades of useless for the hunter.
I get you're trying to get a consensus, but just because you feel something is right doesn't make it so. I work in Clinical Trials and someone feeling a certain way does not cut it as a decision. We use numbers and analysis.
How exactly does spontaneous casting help this class? Less flexibility, reduced spell casting, and lowered utility. If you really want to talk theme and flavor, a Hunter is ready for anything with a bag of tricks to help them hunt. This means being adaptable to each situation. How can this be accomplished? Letting them have a large spell selection they can change each day (or leaving slots open to fill later in the day).
Please, other than feeling a certain way, enlighten us as to how spontaneous actually helps this class. Personal preferences and feelings are not valid data.
I already made two posts about why spontaneous casting is seriously useful to the hunter. It's the "protect/hinder/heal/group damage/transport" method. It's about doing the following things repeatedly:
- Buffing the hunter or the pet's resistances/AC (barkskin, resist energy).
- Healing either of them repeatedly.
- Hindering enemies to give the hunter and pet advantage (entangle, faerie fire).
- Damage enemy groups you can't flank or skirmish easily (flame strike, ice storm)
- Spells for getting out of situations (quench, tree stride).These are the kind of spells I use over and over and over. In fact, when I did play druid, I wound preparing multiple copies of many of these spells, just because they were so useful. That's my primary reason for spontaneous casting.
My secondary reason is that a number of druid spells simply aren't that useful for the hunter, and she doesn't have enough spells per day as a six-level prepared caster to warrant using up precious slots on anything overly creative anyways. I would be more likely to take one or two creative utility spells as a spontaneous caster than I ever would with a tiny number of...
And you can only use the small selection of spells you've chosen, meaning you will never be able to have the flexibility to handle multiple different situations. I still don't understand the benefit of being a spontaneous other than getting another single use of a spell per day that you could easily prepare anyway.
So, basically, you have a favorite selection of spells and would prepare them or choose them spontaneous regardless? If I'm understanding correctly. And by going spontaneous, you get, what, another daily use of said spell selection?
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I have to ask this; is there a reason that more Teamwork feats have been added? Hunter just don't seem to be the class that should be using Teamwork feats. I really think that they should be tossed from this class all together.It's teamwork with their pet, specifically, which is more or less the core idea behind the class. They can incidentally use that expertise to work with other party members that have teamwork feats.
Which isn't really teamwork since your animal companion is an extension of your class.
I like the idea of spontaneous casting. Frankly, if I'm a hunter, I want to spam cure spells and buffs. If I wanted to be a utility caster, I'd be playing druid, wouldn't I? Further, if I lose my animal companion, the ability to reconfigure my spells isn't going to help me. 24 hours later, I'm going to have completed my uninterrupted ceremony, period. I don't need to configure a different spell load-out to use just until I can summon a replacement AC. Hopefully, I have some cool druid spell wands for contingencies and I'll use those.
That said, if the class retains prepared casting, why not spontaneous cures, like a good cleric? That way, I can cure the heck out of my animal companion, at all spell levels. If my animal companion gets killed, I can still cure my teammates.
My point is that people are concerned that the hunter PC (rather than the animal companion) is too weak, and switching from "full druid spell list, prepared caster" to "limited druid spell list, spontaneous caster" is a power-down for the hunter PC.I know I said I'd stay out, but I wanted to ask about this.
Do you feel that a sorcerer is a powered down wizard? I thought the idea was that each was better at different things. The prepared caster shines at utility, being able to handle multiple situations effectively, and a spontaneous caster is more effective at a given situation. If the hunter only cares about a certain situation, combat buffing, they don't actually gain anything by being a prepared caster. It would in my mind be a boost up to give them more access to the few spells they really want. That there are fewer spells to pick from isn't a drawback when the others don't appeal to you anyway.
Ok, back to the shadows.
I'm not SKR, but a sorcerer is a powered-down wizard not just because spontaneous casting is somewhat less gamebreaky than prepared casting, but because it gets spells later. It'd be a lot closer if the sorcerer didn't get delayed spell access. (Also, Int is an okay mainstat, while Charisma is the worst mainstat by a hefty margin.) Sorcerers do have niches, of course, but they're slight and narrow. (This previous paragraph ignores the existence of Paragon Surge; while it closes the gap considerably, it's one spell from a sideline product, so I feel that it's okay to not consider it a core part of the sorcerer design.)
The druid spell list has a bunch of really situational stuff on it, which lends itself well to spontaneous casting. If you need to, I dunno, teleport between two trees or something, you can usually wait fifteen minutes to prepare the spell in an empty slot. There's plenty of situational stuff that has the property that when you need it, you need it now, but a lot of that stuff is to narrow for a spontaneous caster to know anyway, so it's scroll fodder regardless of your casting style.
While spontaneous spellcasting would (marginally) weaken the hunter, I don't think the part of the hunter that people are worried about feeling too weak is the spellcasting to begin with. The Hunter is already way more magical than I think resonates with many people.
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And you can only use the small selection of spells you've chosen, meaning you will never be able to have the flexibility to handle multiple different situations. I still don't understand the benefit of being a spontaneous other than getting another single use of a spell per day that you could easily prepare anyway.
So, basically, you have a favorite selection of spells and would prepare them or choose them spontaneous regardless? If I'm understanding correctly. And by going spontaneous, you get, what, another daily use of said spell selection?
Okay, let me break this down in very clear terms. Let's start with the prepared version of the hunter. As a 10th-level hunter, these are the spells I would have prepared (assuming an 18 Wis):
0th: create water, detect magic, light, mending, stabilize
1st: cure light wounds x3, entangle, faerie fire, speak with animals
2nd: barkskin x2, resist energy x2, spider climb
3rd: cure moderate wounds x2, greater magic fang, quench
4th: cure serious wounds, flame strike
Now here's my spells known with spontaneous progression at the same level:
0th: create water, detect magic, detect poison, light, mending, stabilize
1st: cure light wounds, entangle, faerie fire, obscuring mist, speak with animals
2nd: barkskin, flame blade, heat metal, resist energy, spider climb
3rd: cure moderate wounds, neutralize poison, quench, stone shape
4th: cure serious wounds, flame strike
You see the difference? Because I'm not having to use up multiple slots taking care of "priorities", I'm diversifying into utility. I'm not worrying about having enough copies of a spell to survive, so I'm able to spend more time thinking about the magical tools my hunter could use to accomplish tasks.
You see the difference? Because I'm not having to use up multiple slots taking care of "priorities", I'm diversifying into utility. I'm not worrying about having enough copies of a spell to survive, so I'm able to spend more time thinking about the magical tools my hunter could use to accomplish tasks.
Exactly. Most of the hunter's spells are going to be used to support their hybrid role, in the most direct way possible.
Due to animal companion going to be more directly involved in combat, it means greater damaged being received, the hunter would need to stock up with plenty healing spells, even if no situation arises for the need. Yet there are non-combat orientated situations where utility spell tricks are needed to overcome a situation is dramatically hampered due to having a fix prepared spells. I built hunter and the first spell type that went onto the list was healing, and would fill up almost all the spell slots, especially when one plays in a high damaging deadly campaign.
I see the Hunter as a person who lives in the wilds, either as wardens of nature, or food gatherer for the community. Someone who prefers to be outdoors than stuck in doors, a person who really is not interested in books, but rather studying nature outside making mental notes, while scouting about. A person who is prepared for the unknown natural situation, which can be very varied, so must be prepared for many situation than specific situations. Prepared spells clashes with the free spirit ready for anything life, while spontaneous casting encompasses the free wild life, like the sorcerers.
An alternative to spontaneous casting, though not my favourite choice, but as a compromise is to keep the prepared spells, but allow the prepared spell be replaced by healing spell on the fly. That way the hunter can at least cater for some situations, without clogging up the spell choices with healing spells. Though spontaneous casting would allow for greater variation of situations to be dealt with.
Though I like to see examples of hunters that focuses on ranged combat consisting on flying character and flying animal companion, as I see many feats would be taken up on flying related stuff for combat and survival, than pick up feats for ranged combat, yet alone melee combat.