Revised Hunter Discussion

[drakkonflye]

Kryzbyn wrote:

I believe SKR said that this class is more of a beastlord than a hunter.

Don't get so hung up on the name.

I don't know, but I still feel if they're going to make this a beastlord or beastmaster class, then they really should consider giving her the ability to share senses with her companion a la Beastmaster.

[LadyWurm]

Kryzbyn wrote:

I believe SKR said that this class is more of a beastlord than a hunter.

Don't get so hung up on the name.

Then why name it the hunter to begin with? Was someone too busy playing WoW to actually consider matching name and theme? I mean, to come right out and say "well, we made this hunter class, but it's really more of a beastlord than a hunter"...I mean, seriously, am I the only one offended by how derp that is?

Also, we already have the "hang back and be supportive while my companion does everything" class. It was called the summoner. :P

[Kryzbyn]

I don't know the answer to those questions, but I'm sure adding more snark will help.
Also, there are other MMO's with a similar theme.
On inital read of this class, I thought Beastlord from EQ or a White Lion from WAR, not a hunter from WoW. I envisioned the two together in melee.

To each their own, I guess.

[Jessie Scott]

I think the class is taking shape nicely with the revisions. I will do my best to playtest this revision in a week, but that may be tough considering work, the time of year, and how much free time I have. Still, I see some weaknesses and have some ideas that could help without reinventing the class:

Weakness: for a combatant, the BaB is low. While a character can increase their ability to hit slightly (attack bonus mainly) with animal focus and spells, this still keeps them left out from feats until much later.

Proposed Solution: Either increase Hunter's BaB (and lower their spells per day across all levels by 1 to offset the change) or let them consider their BaB equal to their Hunter level for feat requirements (same for animal companion) so the Hunter is able to choose effective feats at the same rate a Ranger would.

Weakness: No focus on the Hunter's Combat viability other than teamwork feats.

Proposed Solution: Hunter Combat Styles: 2nd, 6th, 10th. Like the Ranger, replacing precise companion as many have pointed out should just be a free feat at this level. These would be new lists, but they would not take much design space as all that is needed is listing which feats are available.

Ranged Feats:

Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, etc. Balance of throwing, crossbow, and archery.

Melee Feats:

Should be self explanatory, list of melee feats and maybe unarmed/natural attacks?

Trapping:

Feats related to disabling devices, creating traps, using traps (combine with Trapper archetype features/feats for a great Hunter flavor)

Also, Disable Device should be a class skill. This class shouldn't get the trapfinding class feature, but they should be able to identify and disable traps like pits, animal snares/traps, and other ways of catching/killing prey. This would also get synergy with the Trapping Combat Style (if implemented) and would make the Trick "Detect" more useful as well.

Personally, I feel this class is really close. Hit dice still seems to be a point of contention, and as Hunter and Animal Companion are meant to take down foes, they simply don't have the hit points to survive long. In addition, this class has serious Multiple Ability Dependent (MAD) Disorder at this point. Str or Dex for attack/damage; Wis for Spells, Chr for handling of animals/empathy, and Con for surviving attacks. Which means that Int will likely remain low and most Hunters will see 4 skill ranks per level (not accounting for Race) limiting their out of combat abilities (Seriously, who won't take Survival, Perception, and Handle Animal leaving only 1 skill rank to be chosen?).

[RJGrady]

Is there actually no druid spell that lets you scry on your animal companion?

[Bladesinger]

Adam B. 135 wrote:

Bladesinger wrote:

I still think a few fixes would help this class....

Animal Focus - This could give the Favored Terrain of the Animal to the Hunter, as well as the buff...getting 'in tune' with the animal, so to speak. This gives an excellent reason to use the ones you already have magic items for.

Two Companion Fighting - This is essentially the Two Weapon Fighter Archetype's ability to fight with two weapons called Twin Blades, only in this case, with two people. When both the Hunter and the AC make a full-round action to attack the same target, they each gain a +1 to Hit and damage against that target, starting at 4th Level, and going up every 4 levels to a maximum of +5 at 20th Level.

Hunter's Magic - Starting at 5th Level, the Hunter can select a number of Ranger Spells equal to his Wisdom Modifier to add to his list of Spells available to memorize.

That's just me. YMMV.

I think your Two Companion Fighting class feature should be improved to a general buff that is applied when both the hunter and companion attack the same target, full attack or not.

Also Hunter's magic is perfect. This is needed.

I don't know, a general buff at that point would be sweet, but why not just give them full BAB then when team fighting with their AC? Something situational like the above seems like a better comprimise, no?

[far_wanderer]

One weird thing that I just noticed about the Hunter:
Hunters use the Druid spell list. The Druid spell list does not include Beast Shape, because Druids get Wild Shape. Hunters don't get Wild Shape. This means that a Hunter can turn into a spider (Vermin Shape IS on the Druid spell list) but not an animal.

[LadyWurm]

Jessie Scott wrote:

Also, Disable Device should be a class skill. This class shouldn't get the trapfinding class feature, but they should be able to identify and disable traps like pits, animal snares/traps, and other ways of catching/killing prey.

That would certainly be a little more hunter-like at least. As for the fact that the hunter herself is a piss-poor combatant...feats are at least a decent answer, one that I've proposed myself, so I could get behind a combat style chain.

[LadyWurm]

far_wanderer wrote:

One weird thing that I just noticed about the Hunter:

Hunters use the Druid spell list. The Druid spell list does not include Beast Shape, because Druids get Wild Shape. Hunters don't get Wild Shape. This means that a Hunter can turn into a spider (Vermin Shape IS on the Druid spell list) but not an animal.

Spiders are hunters, right? :D

[LazarX]

LadyWurm wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

I believe SKR said that this class is more of a beastlord than a hunter.

Don't get so hung up on the name.

Then why name it the hunter to begin with? Was someone too busy playing WoW to actually consider matching name and theme? I mean, to come right out and say "well, we made this hunter class, but it's really more of a beastlord than a hunter"...I mean, seriously, am I the only one offended by how derp that is?

Also, we already have the "hang back and be supportive while my companion does everything" class. It was called the summoner. :P

Obviously this Hunter is BeastMaster specced. :)

[Joyd]

far_wanderer wrote:

I'm currently building a Hunter for an upcoming playtest game, and I've noticed something, but before I get into that long digression let me just say that the revisions make the class a lot more fun. The removal of a bunch of the finicky restrictions (proficiencies and the animal companion's teamwork feats) may not do much as far as a power upgrade goes, but they're much more fun to work with. The changes to Animal Focus are a power boost, and I really like them.

Now then. The core remaining problem of the Hunter class isn't actually the class itself, it's that it depends a lot on teamwork feats. And quite frankly, most teamwork feats are not very good, especially for the style of combat the Hunter is supposed to encourage (animal companion runs in, Hunter stays back and shoots). They provide a bonus that is marginally better than the equivalent non-teamwork feat (Coordinated Shot compared to Weapon Focus, for example) but have specific conditions that must be maintained. More importantly, they don't do anything for one of the two characters who has to take them, so you're not likely to see anyone else in the party joining in.

One concept that I've developed involves the Hunter going into melee with the animal companion, and using Paired Opportunist and Outflank/Seize the Moment to become a critical-hit-based death blender, with Lookout to increase the odds of getting into position faster and at high levels adding Feint Partner and Improved Feint Partner for even more attacks of opportunity. Those are all feats that provide good bonuses and/or special abilities, and they provide their benefit to both characters who had to take them. We need more teamwork feats like that, because when I look at other combat strategies I see:
Animal Companion fights while Hunter casts spells: Still Lookout. Maybe Stealth Synergy. Druid is clearly superior, but that's not really a problem because that's the niche Druids fill.
Animal Companion and Hunter fight together in melee, but without relying on critical...

Pre-revision (well, primarily pre-new-teamwork feats), I definitely felt that melee was the way to go. Archery is very feat-intensive for a class that gets no bonus feats or pseudo-bonus feats (Ranger, Fighter, ZAM), and doesn't really pay the ranger off because it has no in-class way to add a bunch of damage to every shot of a massive archery fusillade (Inquisitor, Paladin). The class is hardly hurting for useful things to do while far away - hello, being a spellcaster - and archery really takes a lot of investment to get off the ground. I can see going a few levels of Ranger or Fighter in order to get started with archery... but if you're going a few levels of ranger or fighter, you're basically just a ranger anyway!

[Captain K.]

I'm afraid to say...

I really like the revision.

Never played WoW, but I have always wanted to send my pet tiger into some bloke while I stand back and shoot bows and spells at the sucker. This works now.

The improved Animal Focus is great too. It means one's pet can have aspect of the Wolf/Falcon on all day long, then as a swift action change it for the Str bonus.

A few good teamwork feats and some ranger spells like Gravity Bow and Lead Blades and it'd be super. I'd prefer spontaneous Bard style casting off the Druid list, because it'd be more interesting and thematic, but I'll play the Hunter as is.

[LadyWurm]

Captain K. wrote:

A few good teamwork feats and some ranger spells like Gravity Bow and Lead Blades and it'd be super. I'd prefer spontaneous Bard style casting off the Druid list, because it'd be more interesting and thematic, but I'll play the Hunter as is.

Exactly what I want! Don't settle, demand better. You've got the right idea. Join me in fighting for it. :)

[RJGrady]

Can the hunter maybe get an addendum of ranger spells the same way the shaman got some cleric spells?

[Trogdar]

I would like to see beast shape spells added to this guys spell list. I wasn't aware they were not druid spells, but I suppose that is not terribly surprising given that wildshape is a thing.

[Captain Netz]

Haven't played the class much (only 2 encounters) but it seems like melee hunter with companion is still behind. All ranger prof is really nice and you can feel the power difference of the new animal focus but the hunter feels kind of weak while the companion feels great. Not sure about the ranged hunter with companion but that never really quite interested me while rangers get improved precise shot at level 6. I don't think I would be able to play a 3/4s character without that feat so early. Still not sure how I feel about the teamwork feats.

That being said, I think the hunter is moving in the right direction but not quite at its destination yet.

[Heladriell]

If this class is meant to be a beastlord, we must compare it to the summoner.

Right now, the summoner not only is immensely more powerful, but also more interesting to play fluff-wise.

The hunter needs a greater focus on the character himself, with significant class abilities. Something no other class has. I can play a hunter with a druid or ranger sheet and it will feel more like a hunter.

[KainPen]

yes SKR said this was going to be a beast lord class,

But even the animal is still weak it needs to be upgraded a little more not much, give the animal bab +1 per hit dice. I don't care about the 1d10 hp tied to full bab, I think Devs need to get away from that concept that hit dice = what bab is.

Add an aspect of Greater Beast (granting advance or Giant Templet Animal companion as others have stated in the older thread.)

Also change the spell to bard casting as other suggested, with druid spell list. Even make it cast off Cha instead of wisdom. It would make sense that someone with a Strong personality to have a powerful animal following him. This why handle animal function off CHA instead of wisdom correct. Let his spells do the same if this is meant to be a beast lord class.

these things and the class will be fine. all other options and improved ment can come in the form of feats or new aspects.

[Kekkres]

jfkg306 wrote:

Gravity Bow

Access to earlier Improved Precise Shot or one fighting feat.

Add Druid/Ranger Spells together?

Please?

yes i Still think the best way to Rround out the casting is as follows "The hunter prepares spells drawn from the druid list, in addition the hunter may also prepare spells drawn from the ranger list. Ranger spells are prepared one spell slot higher (meaning a first level ranger spell is a second level hunter spell and so on)."

[Dan Koscinski]

I'm really excited for the Hunter, I like the flavour and idea for the class, but it is trying to live up to some really kick ass parents and it still needs a bit more work.

First, 6-level divine casters have a lot more work to do than 6-level arcane casters, primarily because full 9-level divines are still 3/4 BAB. In its first iteration, the hunter can be seen as a druid who dropped its most powerful spells for the ability to mimic magic items on itself. Unfortunately, this does not compare favourably to the druid's ability to do the same thing, but better, through wild shape.

Coming from the other direction, the ranger still has full BAB on the hunter, bonus feats that enable it to perform better in combat, and favoured enemy which gives it the untyped bonus that define combat-based characters in Pathfinder. Furthermore, the favoured enemy also applies to a ranger's animal companion, allowing it to actually participate in combat due to the otherwise poor accuracy of animal companions. These untyped bonuses have come to define combat classes in Pathfinder.

Thus we can see that the ranger remains a better combatant than the hunter and that druids remain better spellcasters. This means hunters need to embrace a more hybrid role than either, but cannot do so. As it stands, the animal focus ability does not allow the hunter or his companion the ability to keep up in combat compared to the accelerated spell access of druids or the favoured enemy bonus of rangers. The hunter has less skill points than the ranger. It also has drastically less class features than the druid or ranger to better its skill use.

I'm fine with them being enhancement bonuses, but the core class feature of hunter compares poorly to the transmutation wizard's ability to grant itself larger enhancement bonuses. Furthermore, the ability scales poorly compared to magical items, or even just the myriad spells that grant the same bonuses, if not better, than those offered by animal focus. The bonuses need to be increased to be greater than the magical items they equate to or at least need to increase at a faster rate than them. As it stands, the animal focus ability still compares unfavourably to many of the druid's spells that offer similar buffs. The hunter spell list also lacks the ranger's spells that make it even better in combat. The animal focus ability is arguably less useful and less flexible than the Inquisitor's judgments because the latter is a rare form of bonus that stacks with the usual.

To make a viable hunter in my playtest, I tried to focus on being some kind of hybrid. Archery is quite sub-par when not in the hands of a high BAB character with feats to spare, so I made a mounted skirmisher. The goal of the character was to remain incredibly mobile and utilize spells to control the battlefield while I lined up my charges. By using only charge attacks, I mitigate the problems with having a low BAB by making a single attack at my middling BAB with charge bonuses. On the turn I charge, I swift to switch my bonus to Strength, which is nice in its flexibility, and on other turns I can swift to a more relevant bonus. Love it. Furthermore, the existing teamwork feats are very poor for increasing combat numbers, but are good for defense. Being mounted, I am always adjacent to my partner, so I get a safeguard against surprise attacks, a bonus to concentration checks, and I never provoke from enemies who do not have reach.

The class is fun, but unfortunately I was still a burden to my team. First of all, my concept could just as easily have been accomplished by being a druid. I would have had more powerful spells for myself, my party and my mount. The main loss to being a druid would have been the turns I had to buff myself for attacking, but with warning of combat I could have pre-buffed myself to negate that entirely. The playtest was only level 4, but at higher levels a druid can also participate in combat by shapeshifting into a combat form, or can better skirmish by shifting into a nigh-invincible elemental.

Second, my concept could just as easily have been accomplished by being a ranger. My charge attacks would have been more powerful through favoured enemy or just more accurate when it didn't apply. My animal companion would have been weaker against targets that are not my favoured enemy, but that would be negated at higher levels with Instant Enemy. At the current level, a horse is durable enough that it would not have gone down anyway. I would have lost some spells for the superior combat abilities, but I primarily made use of 1st level spells with my hunter anyway. The additional skills I receive from ranger would have also allowed me to aid more out of combat, further supported by my favoured terrain.

For a greater focus on hunting with an animal companion, I would turn to the huntmaster archetype of cavalier. Rather than get an animal focus, the larger pack of animal companions get the untyped bonus of the cavalier's challenge ability and a lot of cool tricks that make them more useful in combat. Rather than just throwing out superior numbers, they get the ability to make free combat maneuvers and better flank their enemy. Huntmasters also benefit from teamwork feats on top of this, and get access to useful abilities to enhance their ability to hunt: Swift Tracker at a lower level than both rangers and hunters, quarry and improved quarry (later than a ranger, but better than never on hunter). The full BAB and feats of the huntmaster also allow it to utilize whatever combat style it wants alongside its pets, who are there to enable the PC to be better in combat - something the hunter desperately needs.

The hunter is in stiff competition with these classes for its position, and needs to be careful in carving out its niche. The description of hunter makes it want to be a pet class above all else, and this is fine since it does not step on the toes of any of the above three classes. Now the hunter needs some way to make its pet unique and relevant. Though it should be noted that their animal companion will be strictly worse than the Summoner's, because Eidolons are fully customizable and have a better stat-line to begin with.

I like animal focus for its ability to adapt to changing situations, making it a swift action is key to making it a useful class feature. I think it needs two definite boosts in power: (1) it needs to scale more quickly, and possibly to greater numbers to make it equal to or a step above the large list of things it competes with (permanent magic items, limited magic items [potions, scrolls, wands, staves], and spells with the same effect [most of which offer a better effect earlier, and with a longer duration]); (2) an expanded list of animals and effects, just looking to the spell Animal Aspect offers a wide selection of abilities that would be great to have as a swift action. The latter I expect to come out eventually, though one immediate bonus I would like to see is a boost to wisdom. This would allow the hunter to shift into a casting stance more quickly, and would help at lower levels by boosting the hunter's spell DCs. As it stands, a druid can better increase the power of their animal companion through quicker access to more powerful spells and by disabling their enemies with offensive spells, and they eventually access spells that the hunter will never touch. With more power on demand, the hunter will be better able to adapt himself and his companion to changing situations, which none of the other classes are capable of doing.

If you want to avoid making animal focus an untyped bonus, then perhaps consider adding in very specific bonuses for combat or skill related tasks. A bonus to CMB and/or CMD for a select list of maneuvers (Magpie: steal, disarm; Gorilla: grapple, reposition; Auruchs: bullrush, overrun), for instance. This still competes with spells, but given the direction you insist upon for the ability it will still be a boon to hunters because they can activate these bonuses as a swift action. For skill based animal foci, I would consider offering new movement modes to make them more useful or scaling their bonuses more consistently as well. A hunter can acquire a climb speed and its attached +8 bonus to climb checks well before 16th level.

The other problem with animal focus, specifically regarding the skill bonuses, is that a lot of these bonuses will need to last for more than 1/min per level. Tracking something by scent, sneaking through an area, or climbing over an obstacle can all take more than a minute, sometimes more than an hour. In recent sessions of my ongoing game, my players have had to track something to a farm 30 minutes away from the village where the tracks began, they've had to trek across an enormous mountain range over 4 days and have avoided packs of terror birds whose territory took a day's travel to pass through. The hunter's animal companion may have been of use throughout this, given its permanent animal focus, but the hunter himself would only be able to 'spike' his checks for certain sections of the journey. Given the length of time, I wasn't having them roll checks in 1 minute intervals either. It seems the hunter would be better off investing gold in magic items that provide the same bonuses as some of his animal foci, but have a permanent duration. In the same scenario, a druid is superior because they can wild shape into something that can completely circumvent these challenges and their ability lasts for hours. The relatively minor bonuses from animal focus could use a duration buff for the hunter themselves, or just make them last the entire day and be swappable as a swift action. This allows the ability to more safely compete with magic items.

Master Hunter should also gift the third focus to animal companions, rather than just the hunter. As it stands, this end cap ability is pretty lackluster.

With these buffs to animal focus, the hunter and their companion are still not on par with the three classes previously mentioned. The teamwork feats are nice, but more often than not are not more powerful than combat feats. Without granting untyped bonuses to allow the hunter and their companion to keep up with combat characters, they will need to rely on circumstantial bonuses: tripping opponents, blinding them, flanking, etc... The huntmaster and his companions already improve on many of these abilities, on top of the damage bonus they draw from his challenge ability. Rather than retread on the same ground, I think offering the hunter an ability to 'mark' targets for his animal would be more interesting for the class. To keep with the hunter's adaptable motif, I think the bonus should apply to any opponent damaged by the hunter, likely in the previous round. A +1 bonus on attack rolls at level 1 and every 5 levels thereafter shouldn't step too much on anyone else's toes, and the ability to mark multiple opponents at once shouldn't be too powerful because the animal will likely only be able to attack one anyway. This also allows the hunter to choose what they will do with the bonus, rather than the huntmaster being 'forced' to follow an attack with specific maneuvers.

Now, the cool thing with leaving it as 'damaged by the hunter' means the hunter doesn't need to be focused on mundane, physical combat either. The animal would also be adept at capitalizing on the hunter's use of damaging spells as well. By not being a specific action, the hunter is also more flexible than its competitors since it does not need to limit itself by spending an action to taking down a single opponent or a favoured enemy. The bonus also means that it can compete with a druid's high level animal buff spells, especially when combined with the hunter's own buff spells. Furthermore, it means the animal doesn't need to have the Bull or Tiger animal focus up in combat, and can remain a sentinel against additional enemies or a harrier with improved move speed. Alternatively, it means that an animal with the Bull or Tiger animal focus up can make a difference in combat. This allows the hunter to control the flow of battle, rather than having to constantly be a step behind their enemy when adapting to changing circumstances.

One more ability I would add is something to improve the bond between the hunter and their companion. To keep things simple, I would insert a class feature that allows them to aid each other more effectively, reducing the action required to aid another and increasing the bonus received when the two use it on each other. This is primarily to improve their skill use out of combat, but it also allows for greater flexibility in combat, particularly in situations where the animal companion cannot contribute effectively.

I hope the ideas here are of use in the development process.

Cheers!

[teribithia9]

DarkOne the Drow wrote:

Under Animal Focus can someone clarify this statement for me:

The hunter can use this ability for 1 minute per day per hunter level. These minutes need to be consecutive, but the ability must be spent in 1-minute increments.

I not sure what this means regarding "consecutive".

Also feel the spell level limit is slightly weak, maybe increase the spell levels, or make casting spells spontaneously.

I really hope we get an answer on this question. I like this class a lot and wanted to build one for a PFS character, but having to use all of your animal focus minutes at once is a drag and in PFS we'd have to go by the letter of what the document says, now, rather than what we think was intended.

[Dispari Scuro]

This class seems pretty nice after the revision. I think it fills a role as a nice pet-centric character, which is something I personally like the sound of. I have a lot of ideas in mind for a pet-assisted fighter with all the nice teamwork feats and the cool stuff you can accomplish with a companion. My only complaint would be that it seems to have a lot of dead levels, and it doesn't really gain anything new between levels 8 and 20.

[nategar05]

So this class is supposed to have the best animal companion in the game, right? How about a class feature, feat, or spell that temporarily increases the effective Hunter level for determining his pet's abilities and features?

[LazarX]

nategar05 wrote:

So this class is supposed to have the best animal companion in the game, right? How about a class feature, feat, or spell that temporarily increases the effective Hunter level for determining his pet's abilities and features?

The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level.

That's considerably better than the Ranger.
But wait there's more. available at the same low price!

Animal Focus (Su): At 1st level, a hunter can as a swift
action take on the aspect of an animal. She must select
one type of animal to emulate gaining a bonus or special
ability based on the type of animal emulated. The hunter
can use this ability for 1 minute per day per hunter level.
These minutes need to be consecutive, but the ability
must be spent in 1-minute increments. She can only
emulate one animal at a time.
The hunter may also apply one of these aspects to her
animal companion; unlike with her, there is no duration
on the animal aspect applied to her animal companion.
It remains in effect until the hunter changes it, which
she may do as a swift action, and it may be the same or
different than the one she has on herself. The hunter can
select or change the animal focus on both herself and her
animal companion as part of the same swift action.

[Insain Dragoon]

Magus also has awesome class features and spells to make up for it. Especially Blade Bound Magus.

[nategar05]

Thanks LazarX, but I was already accounting for that. Most people still see the Class Features that support the pet as being underpowered still, even with permanent Animal Focus. My suggestion is to introduce a mechanic to increase the effective Hunter level to determine the pet's ability. As in higher than the class level.

[Quandary]

I'm still dubious, and I think a comparision to Animal Domain Inquisitor still leaves Hunter/Beastmaster coming up short.
I think customizing the spell list more would help, either adding Ranger Spells to the Druid List
(more attack buffs, and with lower spell levels to make the most of 3/4 casting),
or starting from the Inquisitor List and adding/removing spells that are or aren't on Ranger/Druid List.
(that can be boiled down to a simple enough conceptual rule, but if the application is detailed enough, printing the effective spell list with the class would be a good idea, even if the conceptual rule still suffices to reach the same result AND allow future-compatability with new spells, etc)

I think the design here should start from Inquisitor (as more martial focus 3/4 BAB + 3/4 Caster model) and swap 'social' Inquisitor abilities for Ranger/Druid type abilities, upgrades to Companion, and changing Solo Tactics to be Companion Tactics (or whatever). Maybe using more of a Favored Enemy approach than Inquisitor Bane/Judgement, and that would have more Ranger compatability.

THe thing is, what is the point of giving all martial weapons if thy arn't getting much to actually be impressive using them? If the Hunter/Beastaster themself isn't supposed to be a major combatant great, dont' bother with martial weapons then and confuse people into believin they can achieve that. If they are supposed to be serious combatant, follow thru. As is, Inquisitor is way better even without full martial weapons, can pull off "Hunter" tropes easily with Archetypes granting bonuss to Stealth (as well as Tracking bonus), and with Animal Domain and Boon Companion (and Solo Tactics) can be on par or 95% with the Hunter Companion.

I agree on the point about "Precise Shot for Companion only". If you'r melee focused, that's a waste. (EDIT: I can't actually find that in my download... Does it also allow allow allies to ignore "Shooting into Melee" as far as your Companion goes?) If you're ranged focused, you probably will want Precise Shot ANYWAY for other melee allies (not to mention Ranged Feats that have Precise Shot as pre-req). Offer it as Bonus Feat (perhaps by allowing a choice of Ranger Combat Style, and every Bonus Feat is chosen from that Combat Style OR Teamwork Feats, basically expanding Ranger Combat Style to be Combat Style+Teamwork).

If the Hunter themself really is going to be rather sub-par and the focus is so much on the Companion, it really should be getting some more buffs... d10 HD has an appeal, although I think it might be too much with certain builds (see Favored Class below), but other options that perhaps kick in at higher levels, like becoming a Magical Beast, gaining Familiar like qualities, etc, could be caled for.

For Favored Class, I would think Hunters should be able to replicate the Oracle FC bonus that allows scaling the Companion (or any specific Revelation) faster than a full Druid, at least for some races (probably the ones that get that Oracle FC bonus). Although if there isn't such a FC bonus, that then allows greater scope for boosting the Companion in the base class for everybody (without getting overpowered multiplied by the FC bonus), whether boosting effective Druid Level, boostin HD to d10, changing type or other unique bonuses/abilities.

[Sean K Reynolds]

A few comments:

I can see the case for changing precise companion into just Precise Shot as a bonus feat, or even making this ability "the animal companion never makes anyone take the –4 penalty for firing into melee." It would be easier to use, and not invalidated by actually taking Precise Shot.

I like the idea of giving you the ability to add some ranger spells to your class spell list.

=====

Dieben wrote:

Animal Focus 1st Paragraph: These minutes need to be consecutive, but the ability must be spent in 1-minute increments. She can only emulate one animal at a time.

Was that supposed to say "need not be consecutive,"?

Yes, that was an editing error. In other words, you spend them in 1-minute increments over the course of the day.

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teribithia9 wrote:

I thought that the sticky at the top of the original posting for the hunter class indicated this class had been changed to d10 hit dice but it looks like the revised class has only the d8 hit dice again. Is this intentional because of the other changes or a typo?

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teribithia9 wrote:

I thought that the sticky at the top of the original posting for the hunter class indicated this class had been changed to d10 hit dice but it looks like the revised class has only the d8 hit dice again. Is this intentional because of the other changes or a typo?

That was the slayer, not the hunter.

=====

DeathQuaker wrote:

Bonuses to handling animals, and possibly to Wild Empathy.

Druids, rangers, and now hunters have all always suffered from one issue--Handle Animal and Wild Empathy rely on Charisma.

I don't think the hunter should automatically be better at using wild empathy than a druid or ranger is. I can see the hunter being *amazing* at handling her animal companion, or perhaps not even needing to roll Handle Animal checks to handle *her own* animal companion, or at least giving her the expert trainer ability that the cavalier gets.

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Dan Koscinski wrote:

The other problem with animal focus, specifically regarding the skill bonuses, is that a lot of these bonuses will need to last for more than 1/min per level. Tracking something by scent, sneaking through an area, or climbing over an obstacle can all take more than a minute, sometimes more than an hour.

The skill buffs aren't really intended for handling hours-long tasks. For example, most animals have scent, so the wolf animal focus is only useful if you have an animal that doesn't have it, and would mainly be used if you're dealing with an invisible opponent. Likewise, owl animal focus would be good for sneaking your clumsy bear companion into the enemy castle. Those abilities are there to temporarily make up for a shortfall in that skill, not make you as long-term competent as a character who actually has that skill.

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LadyWurm wrote:

Then why name it the hunter to begin with? Was someone too busy playing WoW to actually consider matching name and theme? I mean, to come right out and say "well, we made this hunter class, but it's really more of a beastlord than a hunter"...I mean, seriously, am I the only one offended by how derp that is?

This sort of comment is not productive. Please revisit the Paizo message board rules. I've removed several other posts relating to this sort of comment.

[teribithia9]

Thanks, Sean. I'm really excited about this class!

[Adam B. 135]

Hey Sean, what do you think of a class feature that grants a scaling bonus to all teamwork feats taken? Like a +1 to all effects granted by a bonus feat that goes up every 4 or 5 levels? And then for precise strike it would add +1 damage (scaling) to the 1d6 damage, instead of extra D6s. Otherwise it might be too similar to sneak attack.

[Sean K Reynolds]

Adam, I'd be wary of that, as I can't plan for what crazy teamwork feat someone's going to create down the road, to which adding a scaling +1 or more might break.

[Kekkres]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I like the idea of giving you the ability to add some ranger spells to your class spell list.

i still think that adding a flat (all ranger spells are available, ranger spells are prepared at one spell level above normal) is simpler, easier and not at all broken. It leaves the level 6 spells a bit out in the open but makes them fairly competitive everywhere else without overpowering anything. it gives them the nice combat oriented buffs that the rangers get without accelerating the spell gain to the point of obsoleting the ranger.

As for the companion there are two fixes i would make, either A) they gain hit dice at every level rather than specific ones or B) they gain D10s as their hit dice.

[Quandary]

a 3/4 caster might obsolete a 1/2 caster because they get spells faster?
i thought that was the point, you don't pick a ranger because you want superior spellcasting.

[Kekkres]

Quandary wrote:

a 3/4 caster might obsolete a 1/2 caster because they get spells faster?

i thought that was the point, you don't pick a ranger because you want superior spellcasting.

not quite what i meant, the ranger and paladin lists are generaly scaled to be usefull at the levels you get them, so a ranger/paladin level 2 spell slot is in general =/= to everyone elses level 2 slot, if you just transfer the ranger spells onto the hunter on a one to one ratio it makes the hunter a FAR better caster at early levels and makes the rangers casting look entirely pointless.

[nategar05]

Sean, what do you think of some kind of mechanic to temporarily increase the effective Hunter level for determining his pet's abilities? It would certainly (AFAIK) be unique to the Hunter and would go a long way toward making them the undisputed masters of the pet combat classes.

[Sean K Reynolds]

nategar05 wrote:

Sean, what do you think of some kind of mechanic to temporarily increase the effective Hunter level for determining his pet's abilities? It would certainly (AFAIK) be unique to the Hunter and would go a long way toward making them the undisputed masters of the pet combat classes.

I think that would be a really complex option; you'd basically need a separate stat block for the companion for when you use that ability. Especially as some of those changes would mean it gets extra feats, changes size, and so on.

That's actually why we changed the animal focus to always-on: if you wanted to, you could just set your companion to one focus and leave it at that.

[Insain Dragoon]

Can Hunters get an ability to give their animal companion effective BAB= to their level while attacking?

That way they keep their progression for feat selection, but now the companion can keep up a bit better at higher levels since wondrous items are for humanoids only.

[Weslocke]

Glav wrote:

The animal focus going to 1 minute increments is a big fix. Really, it means in most cases 'one encounter per level' . By 5, that will be basically all of a session. Now, those cool alternate belts people always ignored become viable.

Something to remember: most enhancement bonuses by items mentioned in this thread (belt, boots) are not, by RAW, legal for animal companions to wear normally. (PFS not allowed for sure, maybe in a home game with Extra Item Slot (a feat cost), or your GM may allow them anyway, but if we're talking GM fiat, then anything goes.)

The hunter isn't the only one attacking here: you have an animal doing damage. The teamwork feats seem to be ignored, too. You and your companion are going to be buffing each other with those feats.

Level 1, your animal will be stronger and hit more often than your druid equivalent (effectively permanent +2 to strength). At three you get your choice of any teamwork feat for you and your animal; feats like precise strike, outflank, and coordinated charge for melee or enfilading fire, target of opportunity, and the new coordinated shot come to mind. Normally for them to take those you need shenanigans. You always have a flanking buddy, so menacing weapons are on the table. Rangers get 6 free feats from small lists, the hunter gets effectively 12 (6 for you AND 6 for your animal.)

Rangers have to eat a feat for Boon companion, and even then, it will always be cheaper to get your pet buffed as a hunter than as a ranger because of the Animal Focus ability. They can get the teamwork feats if they eat them as they level up, but the hunter gets to keep his for whatever else.

And remember the ring of tactical precision: 11,000gp will buff every teamwork bonus you give or receive by 1. A ring, enfilading fire, coordinated shot, and a properly placed pet will give you an extra +6, untyped, to hit at level 6. That flat out beats the ranger and druid. Your pet will be stronger than the Druid's, and be buffed by more spells than the equivalent level
...

THIS! So, so, so, so much this!

I am looking at a 7th level ranged hunter build right now that can achieve a +16 opening round attack total with just it and the companion.

EDIT: I had to change that from +15 to +16. Forgot weapon focus. This is, of course, before the hunter in question activates its Deadly Aim & Rapid Shot feats.

[Usual Suspect]

Does anybody else think that Hunter is a little light on skill points? It has the full scope of skills from both the Druid and the Ranger, but no more skill points than a Druid. I feel like Hunter should have the skill points of a Ranger (6) in order to make use of a reasonable number of the skills available.

[Quandary]

Kekkres wrote:

Quandary wrote:

a 3/4 caster might obsolete a 1/2 caster because they get spells faster?

i thought that was the point, you don't pick a ranger because you want superior spellcasting.

not quite what i meant, the ranger and paladin lists are generaly scaled to be usefull at the levels you get them, so a ranger/paladin level 2 spell slot is in general =/= to everyone elses level 2 slot, if you just transfer the ranger spells onto the hunter on a one to one ratio it makes the hunter a FAR better caster at early levels and makes the rangers casting look entirely pointless.

yes, i'm aware of that, but rangers are still getting their spells at the level it works for them... that another class that is a higher tier caster than them is a better caster than the doesn't make them obsolete, because higher tier casters are SUPPOSED to be better casters than them. you can say that Hunters might now be getting these spells at extra good levels, but so what?, plenty of classes get early entry spells, and that can simply be one of the benefits of Hunter casting, just like Summoners and Inquisitors. yes, that will give the Hunter some unique advantages. that is the point.

rangers are not going to be obsolete because they get things Hunters don't, like d10 HD, full BAB, and favored enemy and combat style on top. rangers being more (personally) martially effective, and hunters more caster effective (and companion wise) is par for course with the basic structure of how they are designed so far. just giving hunters a druid spell list cut down to 3/4 casting progression isn't really giving them the full benefit of 3/4 casting, as every other 3/4 caster class gets: bards, summoners, maguses, inquisitors all gain advantage from unique spell list with early entry. letting hunters get early entry and ranger spells just isn't that big of a deal... things like command plants are 1 spell level lower in ranger than druid, so it's basically a 1 class level early entry for 3/4 caster Hunters vs. full caster Druid... JUST LIKE SUMMONERS AND HASTE. Gravity Bow is 1st level Ranger AND Wizard, so the Hunter isn't really doing anything game breaking by ALSO getting it as 1st level spell with their 3/4 casting, and on a BAB difference there is no difference between the Hunter and Wizard at level 1 and 2 and only +1 BAB at level 3.

and it would be a joke for rangers to be using 1st level gravity bow wands at mid-level while Hunters would be forced to shell out for 2nd level wands for what is a minor damage boost. the game clearly is valuating Gravity Bow as a 1st level spell, across Ranger and Wizards, so giving it to Hunters as a 2nd level spell is giving them crappier than par access to it, to the point players will want to use UMD to use Ranger wands of it rather than pricier Hunter wands.