| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Most people on the boards can agree that the Monk, as it stands, is broken. The reasons are threefold:
1) Medium BAB combined with low spellcasting/abilities
2) MAD Abilities
3) Poor support for melee options(e.g. AOMF expense & Flurry incompatibility with TWF-feats/natural-attacks)
What's worse, many potential fixes would surely serve to break existing Monk archetypes or to increase the already worrisome tendency to only use the Monk for 1-2 level dips. With those in mind, I've created a simple set of rules to fix the Monk while not breaking archetypes or unbalancing the class.
The philosophy behind these changes is that all Medium BAB heroic classes have spellcasting, heavy skills/abilities or Sneak Attack (usually 2 out of the three) to supplement their weak combat abilities, none of which applies to the monk. The monks abilities are, generously speaking, comparable to that of the Paladin, Ranger or Barbarian. Simply put, my fix is to bring the Monk up to par to the other High BAB combat classes with as few tweaks as possible while minimizing portability for small dips.
Here they are:
1) Bring the Monk up to full BAB
2) Add to the end of the Improved Unarmed Strike Class Feature:
A monk adds 1 point of Wisdom bonus (if any) per monk class level as a bonus to damage with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. This bonus does not apply to any natural weapons other than unarmed strikes. This is not modified by any affect which increases an effective monk level (such as a Monk's Robe).
At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage with unarmed strikes (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow an unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction. This bonus does not apply to any natural weapons other than unarmed strikes. This is an extraordinary ability which does not stack with any spell which gives an enhancement bonus to attacks and damage such as Magic Fang or Greater Magic Fang.
3) Replace the Flurry of Blows Class Feature description with:
Starting at 1st level, a monk gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
At 8th level, the monk gains the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
At 15th level, the monk gains the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
These feats may be used to qualify for any feat which uses one of them as a pre-requisite, but their benefits only apply where the flurry of blows feats would apply. The monk may purchase any of these feats normally, in which case they may be used separately.
The benefits of the monk's flurry of blows feats apply only when attacking with nothing but unarmed strikes or monk weapons. He loses all benefits of these feats while attacking with anything else. The only exception is that primary and secondary natural attacks may be used as secondary attacks, as normal with a full attack action.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows (except for secondary natural attacks, which are treated normally), whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows.
4) Replace Maneuver Training Class Feature description with:
At 3rd level, a monk adds 1 point of Wisdom bonus (if any) per monk class level to Combat Maneuver Bonus. Bonuses granted from other abilities are unaffected and are added normally.
5) Modify the 4th bullet point of Ki Pool Class Feature:
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine and epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
Basically, what these tweaks do is increase the effectiveness and versatility of a Monk's unarmed strikes while minimizing MAD scores and dip/natural-attack cheese.
With these rules:
A) The monk's BAB is equivalent to other combat classes.
B) Wisdom becomes a primary ability. By adding Wisdom to CMB and UA/MW damage, it brings Wisdom on par in usefulness to Strength and Dexterity.
This way, a Monk can either go WIS/STR to buff damage while keeping STR's attack bonus and WIS's AC bonus or WIS/DEX + Weapon Finesse to buff Attack and AC while keeping decent damage (though not as much as with WIS/STR and with a feat tax). For both of these, Wis applies to CMB so they can effectively do maneuvers. That way both the BEEFMONK and the Bruce Lee win and everybody's happy! By restricting it to 1/level, it reduces the incentive to dip for Clerics and Druids. (also, since the Wis damage bonus isn't limited to unarmed strikes, it doesn't break the Sohei!)
C) Unarmed attacks are buffed in a leveled manner equivalent to Greater Magic Fang, which I feel is fair considering the relative weakness of the Monk's standard abilities. It stacks with AOMF, but not with GMF or GMW. There may be problems with the BWOMS but, since that item is such a piece of crap anyway, I'd just as soon get rid of it entirely.
Also, since this buff doesn't count as a weapon enhancement bonus and is specifically placed in Improved Unarmed Strike rather than Ki Pool, it doesn't break the Ki Pool feature or the Martial Artist archetype (which is by far my favorite one).
For those that feel that this is too great a buff, remember that it only applies to the unarmed strike (not to monk weapons or natural attacks), that the AOMF already costs twice as much as a regular magic weapon, that it's leveled such that it doesn't apply in the case of dips and it's equivalent in power to a 3rd level spell which can already be easily and cheesily made permanent through Permanency. Consider that the Ranger and Paladin already get access to GMF and GMW, respectively! It's just one spell effect which does a lot to fix the relative nerf of Monk unarmed strikes compared to every other main weapon available (also consider that the Monk's unarmed strike still only has a Crit Mod of 20x2). This is for the simple reason that Unarmed Strikes can't be enchanted.
D) Flurry of Blows becomes usable for TWF feats and natural attacks that are generally denied to Monks (but are available to EVERYONE ELSE). This is a stroke of unfairness I'm glad to correct! At the same time, since Monk class bonuses don't apply to natural weapons, it doesn't create a crazy incentive to make hordes of clawmonks.
E) As far as I'm aware, none of these changes breaks any archetypes whatsoever! This means Paizo can make these fixes directly to the Core Rulebook and minimize hassle/costs. Even better, the changes are likely to be helpful to existing monk stat arrays so people don't have to completely rebuild their monks.
Please let me know what you guys think of these changes! I tried to make them as balanced, clean and simple as possible. If you like them, please voice your support so we can convince the Paizo staff to fix the monk.
That said, I'm really open to suggestions here because I really want this thing to work. If anyone would playtest it that would be awesome! I'm going to try to do so in my home game that I GM, but most of my players are pretty attached so their characters so we'll see how that goes.
This whole experiment was inspired by Dabbler's efforts HERE. I'm a huge fan of what he's doing, but my changes are based on a full BAB model. I understand that Paizo's unlikely to make such a radical change, but I really believe it's necessary.
I have uploaded an example of a basic, no-frills 5th level monk with no equipment using my new rules to my GoogleDrive HERE.
Tell me what you think!
That first one was a Martial Artist Monk. I've done the same thing with a Qinggong Monk for comparison HERE.
FYI: The effective net difference between these Monks and the standard Core Monk is +4 to CMB/CMD, +1 to attack and +5 to damage. I think they work nicely.
That first one was a Martial Artist Monk. I've done the same thing with a Qinggong Monk for comparison HERE.
FYI: The effective net difference between these Monks and the standard Core Monk is +4 to CMB/CMD, +1 to attack and +5 to damage. I think they work nicely.
Whoops! I meant +3 to attack! I forgot to factor in high BAB.
And I couldn't help myself from making one more. This is the first one again as a STR/WIS BEEFMONK.
Comparatively: +3DAM -3AC -3Ref, replace Weapon Finesse with Power Attack.
EDIT:
I just realized that I accidentally listed their +4 WIS bonuses as being applied to CMD, not just CMB. My mistake! Also the first two are listed as having DEX modifying CMB, not STR. That's honestly arguable because the rules are hazy about, say, applying unarmed bonuses to Combat Maneuvers that use the Unarmed Strike weapon to do them, but just ignore that for now.
OK, looking at your changes:
1) Bring the Monk up to full BAB
While I don't object in principle, this is a HUGE change. Especially since Paizo tied BAB to hit dice. It changes the stat-block of every character in the printed books.
2) Add to the end of the Improved Unarmed Strike Class Feature:
A monk adds 1 point of Wisdom bonus (if any) per monk class level as a bonus to damage with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. This bonus does not apply to any natural weapons other than unarmed strikes. This is not modified by any affect which increases an effective monk level (such as a Monk's Robe).
This doesn't make Wisdom central to the monk. Sorry, but the MAIN stat for any combat class is the one they hit off, either Strength or with Weapon Finesse Dexterity. Because +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage (as a general rule of thumb) the hitting stat will always be central. As the agile property allows Dex to also add to damage, this change doesn't actually change anything.
At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage with unarmed strikes (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow an unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction. This bonus does not apply to any natural weapons other than unarmed strikes. This is an extraordinary ability which does not stack with any spell which gives an enhancement bonus to attacks and damage such as Magic Fang or Greater Magic Fang.
Absolutely behind this one.
3) Replace the Flurry of Blows Class Feature description with:
Starting at 1st level, a monk gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
At 8th level, the monk gains the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
At 15th level, the monk gains the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat.These feats may be used to qualify for any feat which uses one of them as a pre-requisite, but their benefits only apply where the flurry of blows feats would apply. The monk may purchase any of these feats normally, in which case they may be used separately.
The benefits of the monk's flurry of blows feats apply only when attacking with nothing but unarmed strikes or monk weapons. He loses all benefits of these feats while attacking with anything else. The only exception is that primary and secondary natural attacks may be used as secondary attacks, as normal with a full attack action.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows (except for secondary natural attacks, which are treated normally), whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows.
OK, this one was actually how it was meant to work, only no-one realised and had monks flurrying with one weapon. When Paizo pointed it out, there was an outcry, and Paizo reversed the decision: monks can flurry with one weapon, it is NOT two-weapon fighting.
In other words, this would be a nerf, not an advantage, as you lose the ability to flurry with, say, a two-handed temple sword. Sure, access to the other TWF feats would be nice, but they really are not all that awesome, and again this means changing a lot of stat-blocks.
4) Replace Maneuver Training Class Feature description with:
At 3rd level, a monk adds 1 point of Wisdom bonus (if any) per monk class level to Combat Maneuver Bonus. Bonuses granted from other abilities are unaffected and are added normally.
I would suggest wisdom to hit as well, replacing other stat bonuses in all cases, rather than wisdom to damage - then wisdom really IS central to the monk.
5) Modify the 4th bullet point of Ki Pool Class Feature:
At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine and epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
The monk's biggest problem with DR is DR/good or DR/evil, and he starts running into these at 10th level - epic doesn't even come into it, though you could add it at 20th level where it would be appropriate...
Overall, on the right track, but we need to keep in mind what problems we are trying to fix.
2) I disagree about Wisdom. I guess it's that I don't envision WIS being what STR is for the Fighter or INT is for the Wizard. I envison it more as what CHA is to the Paladin, but more so (since I see the Paladin as the most comparable class). I see WIS being a primary stat in the sense that it's necessary for good building, but not your main boost-at-any-cost stat. Besides, WIS to hit breaks the Sensei archetype and boosts the Zen Archer archetype. WIS to damage helps all the archetypes relatively equally (though, admittedly, the Zen Archer less so), even the Martial Artist who doesn't use Ki.
Here's my logic with my proposed changes:
STR gives attack, damage, CMB/CMD
DEX gives AC, attack (if you have WFi), damage (with Agile property), reflex saves, CMD
WIS gives Deflection AC, damage, will saves, ability DC's, CMB/CMD
Taking a look at that... I honestly think my way is better and it really does make WIS the go-to ability for a monk (though maybe not the ONLY primary stat, it's definitely the most essential stat). First off, making WIS to hit means that 2/3 of STR's value is gone (partly because to hit bonuses modify CMB when used with a weapon and also because deflection bonuses modify CMD). If you do WIS to damage AND to hit, it's even worse. That's a fundamental relative nerf to STR which really hurts the relative strength of BEEFMONKS.
The way my system works: STR, WIS & DEX are equally valuable, complementary abilities, with WIS being the most essential. You can go STR/WIS for a heavy bruiser with some deflection bonuses; you can go DEX-WIS for decent hitter with very high AC/Reflex/Will; you can even go full WIS by using the Sensei/Zen-Archer archetypes or taking a 1/level dip into Cleric for Guided Hand. If you just go STR/DEX/CON, though, you end up with the same AC as you'd have with STR/WIS and the same damage you'd be doing with DEX/WIS (and miss out on deflection bonuses). The worst of both worlds.
To summarize it in basic terms: STR gives ATT/DAM, DEX gives ATT/AC, WIS gives DAM/AC. It's a tri-partite balanced system, with WIS as the capstone because STR & DEX don't have stacking ATT whereas the other two combinations stack DAM and AC, respectively.
The other big thing is the whole dip thing. If there's any bonus provided by WIS, I strongly believe it should only be applied as a leveled bonus like the Duelist's Canny Defense. That way none of the boosts that the monk get are translated over to other classes. It'd be the height of irony if the changes made to fix the monk only served to make the other classes even stronger than it.
I'm glad you agree about the GMF effect! I think it's important that it be counted as a non-magical enhancement bonus to avoid messing with DR & the Martial Artist.
3) LOL! Can't believe I missed that one! Must be because of my natural bias towards Monks using unarmed attacks rather than weapons. I'd fix that with a line saying something along the lines of "A monk with Flurry of Blows may use these feats to attack more than once with the same weapon." The main thing for me, though, is that the Monk should be able to use natural attacks with TWF. It's the only class that cant't. The feats are honestly gravy, but I think they're at least a little important. Who knows what new TWF feats Paizo will come out with that the Monk won't be able to qualify for? There are feats in Mythic Adventures that they already are not able to qualify for (BTW, the only feat in there for the Monk is one which helps dip monks).
4) Again, I disagree, but I dig.
5) The reason why I slapped Epic in there was because Mythic Adventures rewrote the rules on Epic weaponry. An Epic weapon is now a weapon with a bonus of +6 or greater (INCLUDING special abilities). If GM's are going to be chucking in Mythic monsters (as I might be tempted to at that level), an unarmed strike Monk would be the only one at lvl 16 without an Epic weapon. It's a minor note, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Regardless, I've put together a straight monk and a dip monk for my own Kingmaker game and one of my players is going to playtest a Monk, himself. He said he was going to try to break my changes as much as possible and he's a practiced minmaxer. His build is a straight-up STR/WIS Dragon Style beefer with damage bonuses out the wazoo and feats/items to compensate for AC and my build is a Crane Style DEX/WIS phase tank with fighter feats from Martial Artist.
I'm looking forward to the results! Do you mind if I post them on your thread? I'm thinking of calling my monk the Chingon Monk ;)
As an aside, I really think there should be a monk archetype that replaces WIS with CHA. I feel there's a lot of support in the mythology for that, especially on the villainous side.
This does make the class much more dippable. A single dip now also grants +1 BAB and a free feat that can be applied to a bunch of decent weapons for any TWF build (cestus and temple sword especially) and a +1 to damage (half a feat's worth).
For, say, a TWF ranger, a dip in monk currently gives +1.5 Fort, +1.5 Ref, +2 Will, a free feat from a large list, punishing kick, and more class skills (and as minor bonuses better unarmed strikes and wis to AC while naked). This comes at a cost of -1 BAB, -1 hit point and slower advancement on class abilities/spells.
With your proposed changes, add to that free TWF feat, half a weapon specialization, and remove the cost of 1 BAB and 1 hit point.
Your proposed changes of course makes the monk stronger, but it also becomes a lot more attractive to dip in. I can't see a TWF rogue NOT taking a level in this, from an optimization viewpoint.
EDIT: Realized the post sounded a bit aggressive, removed that. Sorry if it came across that way, just left a very aggressive/offensive conversation on another forum and failed at recalibrating myself xD
Bumping Monks to full BAB is not a good idea.
I would argue that they should get more skill points (6 per level), since they spent more time in school than everyone else.
I'd also add to Ki Pool.
Spend one point to add a +4 bonus to the next attack
Spend one point to add a +4 bonus to the save DC of a special monk attack.
Spend one point to move up to 3 squares during a Flurry of Blows attack routine.
Spend one point, as an immediate action, to convert 50% of damage from an enemies attack into nonlethal damage.
OR I'd bump up Wholeness of Body.
I'd let them flurry with light weapons.
Like Daggers, the first weapon every martial art on earth teaches.
A rewrite isn't necessary. Just adjust Ki Pool to let it cover the basics.
Also, when trying to "fix" a class it's useful to identify if it's the class that doesn't work, or the background rulesets.
MAD classes suffer when compared to SAD classes.
The Pally and Bard struggle a little here too. The Monk is the Most MAD.
I'd rather see an adjustment to SAD classes that forces some diversity of builds.
On the monk itself, in my experience it does work, IF the player is very versed in combat rules. Especially Grappling and special actions. It's not a good class if the player isn't versed in specialized combat rules.
The point of the monk is not straight up unarmed combat, there's a fighter archetype for that. It's as a defensive class. Most optimizers aren't looking for defense, they look to maximize offensive potential.
Also the monk remains the best Dip class ever any buffs to it will just exaggerate that.
Honestly, I kind of disagree with your assessment about where to take it in general. Just adding higher DPR when standing still makes the class more boring in my opinion; it further locks the monk into standing and full-attacking.
I also disagree that the issue is that the class is MAD - the paladin is MAD and still works great - the issue is that basically all the monks special abilities are weak. A 10th level paladin with 18 Cha can self-heal for 5d6 as a swift action 7 times per day without costing access to other abilities. A 10th level monk with 18 Wis can self-heal for 10 points as a standard action 4 times per day and if it does it cannot effectively attack.
I don't want monks to just be another DPR class with a few minor flavor abilities that don't really do anything noticeably. I want the monk to embrace the mystical warrior aspect, and the agile, moving combatant aspect.
Honestly, I think this is what monks should get, and it doesn't much add to dippability:
Unarmed Strike: Base damage should be 1d8. For every four levels, treat yourself as if you where one size larger than you actually are for the purpose of unarmed damage. This does not stack with effects that change your size or treats your weapon as larger size. This means damage progression is 1d8/2d6/3d6/4d6/6d6 for medium size, but isn't affected by Enlarge Person and similar once you hit level 4 - I just don't see a mystical master needing to rely on basic potions to get decent damage, but the damage itself doesn't need to increase very dramatically. This is a medium buff and less intrusive than giving it full BAB.
Combat Style: At first level, you get to choose a combat style, either Flurry of Blows or Precision Blow.
- Flurry of blows works like in the core rulebook.
- If you choose precision blow, at first level you may act as if you have the Spring Attack feat, but the attack must be with a monk weapon or unarmed strike. In addition, this ability can only be used under the same circumstances as the monk get's it's bonus to AC. When making Precision Blow attacks, your monk base attack bonus is equal to your monk level. At 6th, 11th and 16th level you get Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike and Greater Vital Strike respectively. These may be used with Precision Strikes. Allows for different styles - in addition to the traditional, you can be a master of movement. Vital Strike and Spring Attack works great together (except normally they don't), especially with high speed.
Fast Speed: At 3rd level, a monk gains a bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table: monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed. Note: Not an enhancement bonus. Just like for a barbarian, it should stack with Haste.
Ki Pool: At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike.
Slow Fall: At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent, taking no damage from a fall. At 8th level, the monk no longer have to be within arm's reach of a wall. At 12th level, the monk can maneuver during the fall, kicking air, moving 5 ft horizontally for every 10 ft of vertical fall. At 16th level, it can move 5 ft horizontally for every 1 ft of vertical fall, as by the Glide spell.Seriously. The ability has great flavor for the monk but as is it's just so g#~~~!n crappy. This makes it at least circumstantially useful.
Wholeness of Body: As a swift or move action you may spend a ki point to heal yourself an amount of hit points equal to your level plus your wisdom modifier.[i]As with slow fall, it's a flavorful ability but by RAW is hardly ever useful. This makes it a lot more useful. Note though that any round you self-heal you'll lose out on attack options.
EDIT: Zagnabbit, I do not agree that the paladin and bard struggle at all in pathfinder. I think they are very solid classes because pathfinder realized that a class feature for a MAD class has to be stronger by itself than one for a SAD class.
@DailyLunatic - Have you had a look at the new Brawler hybrid class in the ACG? Seems that you want a more muscular monk and the new class has gone in that same direction.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well in my play-tests of my own changes in the last game, two factors made the monk turn from a "meh" contributor to near-enough saving the day.
The first was the change I made to using ki for movement and extra attacks. Tiny changes, but the 20' move as a swift action (rather than +20' movement, which is not that useful) and the extra attack on any attack action (not just a full attack/flurry) made a big difference, as did proficiency with all monk-type weapons.
It turned the monk into a tripmeister that suppressed the enemy (a large bunch of trols) while the rest of the party recovered and stomped on them. This monk was able to stand tall next to the party barbarian, and that's something I have not ever seen a monk do.
You see, I isolated the problems I wanted to fix first:
ONE - features of the system: the monk is MAD, and needs to be less MAD.
TWO - weapons on a combat class: Monk's get poor enhancement on what is meant to be their primary weapon. This leads to problems hitting, and problems getting past DR.
THREE - role: The monk is meant to be mobile, and isn't able to fight mobile: he cannot skirmish as he is meant to in order for his mobility to really mean something.
So Wis-to-hit helps resolve MADness.
My "natural enhancement," weapon proficiencies, and DR-bypass address the weapon problems.
Changes to how ki works helps the third.
This does make the class much more dippable. A single dip now also grants +1 BAB and a free feat that can be applied to a bunch of decent weapons for any TWF build (cestus and temple sword especially) and a +1 to damage (half a feat's worth).
For, say, a TWF ranger, a dip in monk currently gives +1.5 Fort, +1.5 Ref, +2 Will, a free feat from a large list, punishing kick, and more class skills (and as minor bonuses better unarmed strikes and wis to AC while naked). This comes at a cost of -1 BAB, -1 hit point and slower advancement on class abilities/spells.
With your proposed changes, add to that free TWF feat, half a weapon specialization, and remove the cost of 1 BAB and 1 hit point.
Your proposed changes of course makes the monk stronger, but it also becomes a lot more attractive to dip in. I can't see a TWF rogue NOT taking a level in this, from an optimization viewpoint.
EDIT: Realized the post sounded a bit aggressive, removed that. Sorry if it came across that way, just left a very aggressive/offensive conversation on another forum and failed at recalibrating myself xD
Thanks for responding in such a friendly manner!
I agree that my changes make the monk more dippable, but not obscenely so. +1 to DAM for unarmed strikes and monk weapons isn't that OP. A rogue or fighter would have to have at least a WIS bonus of 1 to take advantage of it. Even a TWF ranger, who would probably have the bonus, would only get it for monk weapons. Do you really see a Ranger TWFing with temple swords or cestuses or a sai? A sai or cestus with a +1 DAM bonus is equivalent in DPS to a short sword (less for the sai since it would have a lower threat range). Also: flurry, according to my rules, would max out at TWF1 for that ranger. That means you can ONLY use any resulting TWF chain feats for monk weapons unless you take TWF again.
Speaking of the 1st level feats, they are:
Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything
These are pretty damn weak. Of all of them, I only think Combat Reflexes is one that a TWF rogue/fighter/ranger would want to get anyway.
Also, as per the ranger, I don't understand your numbers. Each ranger level is worth 1.66 points of Fort/Ref and .3 points of Will. Dipping monk for 1 level is a relative 0.33 points to Fort/Ref and 1.7 points to Will. Also I haven't changed the monk's HP. It's still d8, so you don't get an extra effective hit point.
In all fairness, I will note that a TWF rogue TWFing with nunchaku would be winning out here. The +1 DAM would increase the nunchaku DPS to that of a 1-handed flail and the rogue would benefit from +1 BAB.
That said... doesn't that make sense? If you want to lose out on a level's worth of ranger/rogue abilities (and give up the versatility of being able to TWF with anything other than monk weapons) to effectively dual-wield nunchuks or use kung fu with your swordfighting isn't that exactly what dipping monk is for? Hell, just by dipping, a rogue loses 1.75 DAM/attack worth of Sneak Attack damage dice. A ranger loses out on leveling their animal companion or their favored enemy/terrain bonuses. A fighter gains a crappy feat, but has to put off getting a combat feat for another level and they have to wait longer to qualify for some of them.
Idk... I guess I'm saying is that, yes, anything that's going to make the monk more playable is going to make the monk more dippable. What I'm trying to do is make the monk playable enough so that a full class monk can be comparable in power to another combat class and be at least as powerful as a dip monk, while limiting the dip-potential as much as possible. In other words: I want to make the monk powerful enough so it makes at least as much sense for the monk to dip rogue as it is for the rogue to dip monk.
PS:
Given what we've already discussed about Dabbler and I have already discussed about Flurry, here's an addendum to my Monk flurry rules (subject to cleaning up):
These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability). This rule only applies to feats gained from this class ability and not feats gained from other sources. For instance, a monk with Two Weapon Fighting from Flurry of Blows and Improved Two Weapon Fighting from another source may not make a second offhand attack with their primary hand weapon during a flurry (except, of course, it is an unarmed strike).
@DailyLunatic - Have you had a look at the new Brawler hybrid class in the ACG? Seems that you want a more muscular monk and the new class has gone in that same direction.
I haven't. I'm not looking for a more muscular monk. I actually prefer DEX monks. Of all of the fantasy tropes, that one holds a special place in my heart.
The problem with the monk is that it has the BAB and HD of a Rogue, the MADness of a Bard, the special abilities of about 1/2 of a Ranger with no spellcasting, the skills of a Barbarian and was beaten half to death with the nerf bat on equipment. It's the worst of all worlds. There's literally nothing the monk is good at. I'm not kidding. If you tell me the best monk build in the world there will be several builds of several other classes which do what that build does better and easier.
If you have questions, I'd be happy to answer them. If you disagree, I'll totally respect your opinion, but I'd honestly rather you not share it. This has been argued to death for years in epic flamewars on this board and I'm not here to revive any of that. All I want is to look for solutions to what I and many believe is a problem.
Honestly, I kind of disagree with your assessment about where to take it in general. Just adding higher DPR when standing still makes the class more boring in my opinion; it further locks the monk into standing and full-attacking.
I also disagree that the issue is that the class is MAD - the paladin is MAD and still works great - the issue is that basically all the monks special abilities are weak. A 10th level paladin with 18 Cha can self-heal for 5d6 as a swift action 7 times per day without costing access to other abilities. A 10th level monk with 18 Wis can self-heal for 10 points as a standard action 4 times per day and if it does it cannot effectively attack.
I don't want monks to just be another DPR class with a few minor flavor abilities that don't really do anything noticeably. I want the monk to embrace the mystical warrior aspect, and the agile, moving combatant aspect.
Honestly, I think this is what monks should get, and it doesn't much add to dippability:
** spoiler omitted **...
I... actually really dig what you're saying. I understand where you're coming from.
Here's my problem: it's REALLY HARD to balance changes to special abilities like that and it's really confusing. I understand your approach, but I took a different one because it's easier for me to conceptualize just raising it to full BAB and using the other full BAB classes as a benchmark.
Besides, one of the biggest things I learned from the Great Monk Flamewars is that, according to playtesting, the Monk doesn't have a DPS problem because of damage; it has a DPS problem because it can't hit the broad side of a barn. The solution to that is a fixing of MAD and going full BAB.
An example I used before: it sounds like your preferred style of monk play (if you used my rules) would be to go DEX-WIS. Let's say you tweaked your abilities to be Dex & Wis 18 each. That way, you'd have +4 to Ref/Wis, +8 to AC (half of it stacking Deflection), BAB +4 to ATT (assuming Weapon Finesse), and +1 Wis bonus per level to DAM as well as (at level 3) to CMB.
Boom! You have a phase tank that does decent damage and isn't crazy unbalanced! I guess my suggestion to you is you try to stat out a monk according to my rules. You'll like the way it looks; I guarantee it. Hell, if you could playtest it that would be amazing!
Also, when trying to "fix" a class it's useful to identify if it's the class that doesn't work, or the background rulesets.
MAD classes suffer when compared to SAD classes.
The Pally and Bard struggle a little here too. The Monk is the Most MAD.I'd rather see an adjustment to SAD classes that forces some diversity of builds.
On the monk itself, in my experience it does work, IF the player is very versed in combat rules. Especially Grappling and special actions. It's not a good class if the player isn't versed in specialized combat rules.
The point of the monk is not straight up unarmed combat, there's a fighter archetype for that. It's as a defensive class. Most optimizers aren't looking for defense, they look to maximize offensive potential.
Also the monk remains the best Dip class ever any buffs to it will just exaggerate that.
As I just mentioned to Ilja: I don't think buffing ki pool abilities is the way to go. For one thing, a whole bunch of archetypes mess with the Ki Pool (including the Martial Artist, my favorite) so I'd rather not open that can of warms. For another, it's very difficult to determine balance for abilities like that.
Also, as I've also just mentioned, I've gone through threads and threads of dozens if not hundreds of pages of monk flamewars before posting this one. I don't want to start another one here. I would like the discussion to be limited to productive conversation about monk tweaks and away from discussions of why except where directly pertinent.
That said... you're bringing up points that many have before, that the monk is a defensive class and it's not that bad if you know the combat rules. It's a good point, except the monk is so staggeringly, outrageously bad that it's literally impossible to make a build that would be better at anything than a build from another class. The one thing they slightly excel at is not helping the rest of the party and then dying last. I know the combat rules like the back of my hand. They're in my blood. I'm obsessive about strong roleplaying and good optimization. I swear to you honestly that, in all my years of trying to make a good monk build (not just a halfway decent one), I haven't been able to. That's why I offer these changes.
Well in my play-tests of my own changes in the last game, two factors made the monk turn from a "meh" contributor to near-enough saving the day.
The first was the change I made to using ki for movement and extra attacks. Tiny changes, but the 20' move as a swift action (rather than +20' movement, which is not that useful) and the extra attack on any attack action (not just a full attack/flurry) made a big difference, as did proficiency with all monk-type weapons.
It turned the monk into a tripmeister that suppressed the enemy (a large bunch of trols) while the rest of the party recovered and stomped on them. This monk was able to stand tall next to the party barbarian, and that's something I have not ever seen a monk do.
You see, I isolated the problems I wanted to fix first:
ONE - features of the system: the monk is MAD, and needs to be less MAD.
TWO - weapons on a combat class: Monk's get poor enhancement on what is meant to be their primary weapon. This leads to problems hitting, and problems getting past DR.
THREE - role: The monk is meant to be mobile, and isn't able to fight mobile: he cannot skirmish as he is meant to in order for his mobility to really mean something.
So Wis-to-hit helps resolve MADness.
My "natural enhancement," weapon proficiencies, and DR-bypass address the weapon problems.
Changes to how ki works helps the third.
Thanks for the input, Dabbler! I'm going to have my first playtest of my new rules on Sunday. One of my players is going to playtest a monk in addition to his other character and I'm going to throw in some monk NPC's (some mooks and a weak boss to start, then another optimized dip boss later, perhaps another session). I'm basically going to see if CR appropriate encounters actually play like they should. Wish me luck!
Also, if you don't mind, I'll post the results on here and on your thread. Let me know if you'd rather I not! I wouldn't want to step on your toes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I don't object in principle, this is a HUGE change. Especially since Paizo tied BAB to hit dice. It changes the stat-block of every character in the printed books.
No, just monks. There's no reason every class has to be stuck to that formula; we already have one notable exception, the Barbarian, who doesn't have a 1.5X BAB for having a d12 hit die.
@DailyLunatic - Have you had a look at the new Brawler hybrid class in the ACG? Seems that you want a more muscular monk and the new class has gone in that same direction.I haven't. I'm not looking for a more muscular monk. I actually prefer DEX monks. Of all of the fantasy tropes, that one holds a special place in my heart.
The problem with the monk is that it has the BAB and HD of a Rogue, the MADness of a Bard, the special abilities of about 1/2 of a Ranger with no spellcasting, the skills of a Barbarian and was beaten half to death with the nerf bat on equipment. It's the worst of all worlds. There's literally nothing the monk is good at. I'm not kidding. If you tell me the best monk build in the world there will be several builds of several other classes which do what that build does better and easier.
If you have questions, I'd be happy to answer them. If you disagree, I'll totally respect your opinion, but I'd honestly rather you not share it. This has been argued to death for years in epic flamewars on this board and I'm not here to revive any of that. All I want is to look for solutions to what I and many believe is a problem.
I think you misunderstood me. Paizo just had a playtest for the Advanced Class Guide hybrid classes, one of which was a new fighter/monk class called the Brawler. The Brawler nicely resolves a number of the issues you pointed out in your critique of the monk and puts forth a number of mechanics you might want to consider for your homebrew monk replacement. To be very clear, the Brawler isn't some Fighter X/Monk Y multiclass with some archetypes thrown in. It's a new base class that incorporates abilities from the monk and fighter along with some new ideas. Finally, my use of "muscular" was meant to be "trades away fru-fru monk supernatural abilities for more combat emphasis" instead of "STR based builds only".
I can tell this issue is a bit fraught for you so you're entirely within your rights not to have a look at the playtest (revised) Brawler but I think you'll find at least a few novel mechanics that would fit well with your homebrew class.
No, just monks.
While I don't object in principle, this is a HUGE change. Especially since Paizo tied BAB to hit dice. It changes the stat-block of every character in the printed books.
That's what I meant. And that's probably a change in every book that is substantial.
There's no reason every class has to be stuck to that formula; we already have one notable exception, the Barbarian, who doesn't have a 1.5X BAB for having a d12 hit die.
Actually they had plenty of reasons that I won't go into here, going to a great deal of trouble to make sure every class but one fit this formula - and while I think that perhaps should include the monk, they didn't, relying on virtual-full BAB and potentially high AC to close the gap. The non-full BAB classes are meant for "other stuff" than just hammering away, and in the monk's case it's his "mystic abilities" that are supposed to be the focus and the way to buff him - the only problem being that this didn't really work because after making the monk they managed to hit a lot of his abilities with the nerf-bat, perhaps unintentionally, but they still hit them.
My solution is to fix them, so the monk deserves his limited BAB. They only made one exception to the rule, the barbarian, and that's it out of more than 20 base classes. Their reasoning was backward compatibility, and the fact that the barbarian's defences are limited and he is going to get hurt more than the other combat classes.
Symmetry for the sake of symmetry isn't a good thing, IMFAO.
It's not your opinion or mine that counts, though.
@DailyLunatic - Have you had a look at the new Brawler hybrid class in the ACG? Seems that you want a more muscular monk and the new class has gone in that same direction.I haven't. I'm not looking for a more muscular monk. I actually prefer DEX monks. Of all of the fantasy tropes, that one holds a special place in my heart.
The problem with the monk is that it has the BAB and HD of a Rogue, the MADness of a Bard, the special abilities of about 1/2 of a Ranger with no spellcasting, the skills of a Barbarian and was beaten half to death with the nerf bat on equipment. It's the worst of all worlds. There's literally nothing the monk is good at. I'm not kidding. If you tell me the best monk build in the world there will be several builds of several other classes which do what that build does better and easier.
If you have questions, I'd be happy to answer them. If you disagree, I'll totally respect your opinion, but I'd honestly rather you not share it. This has been argued to death for years in epic flamewars on this board and I'm not here to revive any of that. All I want is to look for solutions to what I and many believe is a problem.
I think you misunderstood me. Paizo just had a playtest for the Advanced Class Guide hybrid classes, one of which was a new fighter/monk class called the Brawler. The Brawler nicely resolves a number of the issues you pointed out in your critique of the monk and puts forth a number of mechanics you might want to consider for your homebrew monk replacement. To be very clear, the Brawler isn't some Fighter X/Monk Y multiclass with some archetypes thrown in. It's a new base class that incorporates abilities from the monk and fighter along with some new ideas. Finally, my use of "muscular" was meant to be "trades away fru-fru monk supernatural abilities for more combat emphasis" instead of "STR based builds only".
I can tell this issue is a bit fraught for you so you're entirely within your...
Thanks, HB! I looked at it and, honestly, was a little grossed out. It's a mix between the Fighter and the Monk. As if the Monk were something equal in usefulness to a fighter. I don't want a Monk that's de-sucked by mixing it with something else. I want a Monk that doesn't suck in the first place.
Thanks for the tip, though!
As promised, here are the details of my first playtest of the Chingon Monk:
The party included a human gunslinger, a halfling rogue, an aasimar cleric, a human THF fighter and a half-orc alchemist. The cleric and fighter couldn't make it, so the player of the alchemist playtested the monk as a second character. (as it so happens, the female members of the group were the ones who had holiday plans so we dubbed this session "The Multiple Personality Sausage Fest") The party including the monk and not including the girls was APL 5.
The alchemist player promised to take my monk rule changes and stretch them to the absolute insane breaking point. He did. He built a min-maxed STR/WIS Oread with decent DEX and CON at the expense of INT & CHA. He took the Oread monk archetype and the Dragon Style feat chain. Also, in a really nice move considering Kingmaker, he got an Amulet of Mighty Fists Bane (Human). What feats and items he didn't focus on DPS he pointed squarely at improving his AC. The thing hits like a beast, especially against humans, half-orcs, half-elves, Scion of Humanity Aasimars and human lycanthropes (but not human undead... anybody I'm forgetting?).
The game started at a feast in Restov shortly after the first year of the PC's reign of their kingdom. After some light diplomacy and intrigue, riders arrived with dire news of murders in Olegton.
The murders were being perpetrated by a human werewolf. The monk was pretty useless in the RP of trying to find it, though the party caught on pretty quick about who it was (it helped that the inn where the werewolf was staying was owned by the kingdom's Spymaster). However, the monk was the only one who beat its stealth check when it showed up that night.
The werewolf was CR4 so I wasn't too worried about the party, but I was thinking DR might be an issue. Combat began with the werewolf charging the flat-footed monk with a greataxe and landing a solid hit that probably put him in the neighborhood of death.
I have to admit I was a little surprised when the monk returned the favor with over 30 damage on the return hit. He didn't bypass DR but, at that level of damage, DR/5 was a non-issue. The player explained that, factoring in bonuses from bane, enhancement, STRx2 (from Dragon Style), WIS, Power Attack and the Oread ability Strength of Stone, his damage roll was 1d8 + 19 + 2d6.
After that, the gunslinger blasted the beast with his silvered cold iron bullets (which he calls "baneslayer rounds" because it sounds cool), the alchemist slapped it silly with his silvered double axe and the halfling rogue basically took a nap. They iced the werewolf within two rounds and, luckily, it wasn't able to get another hit into the monk (which may have dropped it).
BTW: The party thought I was trying to kill the monk but I was actually going by this:
During Combat Kundal rages on the first round of combat and then
focuses on one foe at a time, attacking that person until she falls
unconscious or dead before moving on to the next opponent.
The party then returned to their capitol city before setting out on the gunslinger's faction quest (I introduced one of these for each player per chapter to fill out the "empty spaces" of Kingmaker) for the Eagle Knights: rescue slaves from a makeshift market in the hold of a pirate caravel moored off the southern shore of the Tuskwater. This could have been a combat encounter, but it ended up being mostly RP. The three actual characters shone (especially the rogue) and the monk faded into the background.
After laying some seeds for later quest completion (which took at least an hour of RL time), the party headed back to the capitol city, where they were AMBUSHED BY NINJAS.
The half-orc alchemist's backstory is that he's a member of the Daggermark Poisoner's guild raised from birth as part of their organization and sent last year to assist the gunslinger (who is affiliated loosely with the Pirates of the Black Marquis) in assassinating the Stag Lord. Since then, he's been generally kept on a loose leash considering his station as Grand Diplomat of a rising River Kingdom.
Call me drooling idiot, but I thought the coolest and most appropriate side quest for him was to kill his twin brother who, having been raised by the Assassin's guild, left Daggermark with a crew of renegade cutthroats and decided to take over the PC's capitol city underworld. The PC monk is a representative of the Assassin's Guild sent to mercilessly kill these wayward members. I know. I know. I'm a giant dork.
I had already designed this quest by the time I decided to remake monk rules, so I decided to make it less roguish and more monastic. Subtract rogues; add ninjas! I'd already warned them about a new semi-Eastern-themed thieves guild in their city called the Shadow Dragons.
The second scenario was inspired by the opening scene of one of my favorite martial arts films: Duel to the Death. Riding through the city streets at night, the party is ambushed and surrounded by 4 highly acrobatic ninjas from the rooftops (CR3's = CR7 encounter). They have grenades strapped to their chests.
The surprise round begins with shurikens thrown at each of the party members. Everybody but the gunslinger gets hit good for sneak attack damage. The second round has ninjas jumping from the roofs and slapping the party with wakizashis. Every member of the party except for the gunslinger got hit with a sneak attack in first real round (the gunslinger and the monk were the only ones not flat-footed). The gunslinger managed to get away, but the ninja gunning for him went after the monk instead and scored a second sneak attack off a flank. Worse, the monk and the alchemist both got poisoned from the blades.
After one round of straight combat, things fell into a disorganized mess as the relatively undamaged members of the party decided that discretion was the better part of valor while the monk, who was very badly wounded, stayed largely put (in a cool moment, the halfling rogue used some weird feat chain to give a large AC bonus to the alchemist and himself with Aid Another). Again, the party members assumed I was trying to kill off the monk when he was really just the only viable target.
The ninjas were human, so he laid incredible hits on them. The gunslinger helped by blasting at them from just out of charging range on his horse. By the second round, two of the ninjas had been smashed to a virtual pulp by the monk and the other shot to hell by the gunslinger. The one which had landed the first sneak on the monk passed out and the others swarmed in and lit their grenades.
It was at that point that the monk decided to just withdraw and eat the two AOO's that were coming to him. He ended up making it out alive, but not until after a critical threat was scored against him. The player and I looked darkly into each others' eyes as I rolled confirmation: three points shy. If it weren't for an Oread monk archetype +4 AC bonus against crit confirmations, he'd have been toast.
After that, one of the ninjas exploded into bits, taking another one halfway into the grave with him. Another ninja at full health zoomed forward after the alchemist and the rogue to take them with him. The half-dead ninja, seeing himself alone against the dark and scary waterboarding spymaster gunslinger, decided to light up the passed-out ninja's grenades and go out in style.
I allowed the gunslinger to shoot the lit fuse of the grenade, ruling that it was an unattended object and therefore fair game. The half dead ninja then lit the other fuse and used his body to give it total cover. Then the gunslinger emptied his waterskin on them, putting out the fuse. The ninja then passed out.
The fully loaded ninja didn't make it close enough to anybody to be useful when he exploded but, once he did, he was surprisingly not-dead. Even with two grenades and an alchemist's fire strapped to his chest and no save... he was fine. Even if I had ruled an automatic crit he'd probably have been just barely alive. RPG's are weird like that. He decided to take that as a hint and run off into the night. The halfling chased him to no avail. The guards found his mysteriously mangled corpse later that evening.
Considering that the party captured two members of the criminal organization alive, I ruled that the guards used intelligence from their capture to strike a major blow against crime. I gave their capitol city the benefit of the Justice Prevails event.
All told, the monk was a solid, no hold barred, beast. He laid out incredible damage against the humans he fought. That said, I'm really not convinced my changes are overpowered since he came within a hair's breadth of death each time. Also, this represents not a typical monk but one experienced minmaxer's attempt to thoroughly destroy game balance with it. And, lest we forget, +2 to hit and 2d6+2 dam was coming from a bane effect (and humans were all he fought that session).
In other words, he dealt damage like a THF fighter/barb, but might have had less AC and definitely didn't have the same hit points or CON, though he did have some cool extra things like stunning fist and ki strike etc. He's a glass cannon, dishing out massive damage but not being a reliable tank. It's a flavor that would be completely different if he had chosen to go DEX/WIS instead of STR/WIS.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this is exactly what I was hoping for when I made my tweaks: a monk that is just as valuable on the front lines as a ranger or barbarian. Maybe even within an inch or two of a true fighter or paladin. When a high level NPC monk walks into a room, I want PC's to steel their resolve, not chuckle.
What do you guys think? I'm especially interested in Dabbler's thoughts considering his recent conversations about Wis to damage. I'm telling you, man: it's the way to go. Wis to damage in conjunction with full BAB is EXACTLY what the doctor ordered. I'm going to do some more playtests and post them, this time with the party facing off against NPC monks.
Cross-posting from my own thread as well.
Interesting way you have taken the monk. I've opted for the "keep the defences, push the offence up a little" approach, you seem to have gone for "all out offence" instead. You monk seems to be doing more damage than the barbarian with a greatsword in my game, at lower level...I don't think that's the way to go. While DPR is an important feature, given the monk's number of attacks dealing that much damage per hit could rapidly get broken. On the flip side, the damage the monk's taken...I would be worried about the character's survivability.
I'd like to see this monk's stats, if possible.
Interesting way you have taken the monk. I've opted for the "keep the defences, push the offence up a little" approach, you seem to have gone for "all out offence" instead. You monk seems to be doing more damage than the barbarian with a greatsword in my game, at lower level...I don't think that's the way to go. While DPR is an important feature, given the monk's number of attacks dealing that much damage per hit could rapidly get broken. On the flip side, the damage the monk's taken...I would be worried about the character's survivability.
I'd like to see this monk's stats, if possible.
To be fair, he wasn't actually "my" monk. This was created by a player in my game specifically trying to break my changes. He's playing an honestly over-optimized character and I'm pretty sure that you could build a normally optimized barbarian doing the same damage and I'm absolutely sure that he's not on par with a base optimized THF fighter. I don't know if you've ever read the DPR Olympics thread, but barbarians are surprisingly under-powered in DPR if they're not going for pounce or extra attacks.
I asked the player to shoot over his stats so he'll either post them here or I will. I think he might have them only on paper so it might be a little while.
I have to admit, though, this is some serious business here. A base damage of 1d8+17 is eye-popping for level 5. I think that's just his first attack and the rest are 1d8+15, but still... Also, extra Ki attacks pushes things over the top. Maybe the way I stacked things doesn't work out... but I'm not sure where to cut slack, if I should.
I imagine that he'd be doing similar damage using this build with your rules (just -4 from Wis and -2 from the 2nd iteration of Power Attack). Hell: he'd probably be a decent build with core rules. Full BAB only helps with increasing the bonus from power attack and for hitting outside of a flurry (the latter of which I felt was important because of the whole "monk mobility" mystique, as was discussed before).
My changes are basically just Full BAB, leveled Wis to Damage, GMF enhancement bonuses and minor feat tweaks. What the player did was go full bore on STR/WIS, use double/1.5 STR from Dragon Style, take power attack and utilize a +1 to attack and damage from the Oread monk archetype. AOMF Bane (Human) was icing on the murder cake. He managed to bump his AC up to that of our party THF fighter, but only by spending much of his cash on AC and using the Qinggong Monk's Barkskin ability.
Even so, he still doesn't have enough HP to be a full party tank and his AC would have to improve further to compensate. I don't think his build is defensively non-viable; it's just that he was performing as the party tank when he probably can't fully hack the job and the baddems got some good hits on him.
The monks that I wrote up as NPC's are all DEX/WIS monks. I imagine they'll perform much differently in combat and I'm pretty sure they won't be overpowered. Regardless, going to make sure the encounters ramp up in CR in a moderate way.
I'd say your player has succeeded, to an extent. On a full attack he's then doing potentially 3d8+47...that's way excessive, compared to a barbarian at 5th level, who could manage maybe 2d6+16. A fighter would be limited to 'only' 2d6+14 (that strength boost is very good).
I'm guessing you made it wisdom-to-damage-PLUS-strength...and there's your problem right there. One or the other is much better.
Now here's the thing about glass canons: hit hard enough, and it doesn't matter how bad your AC and hit points are. This what the barbarian relies on, that his enemy won't live long enough to do anything bad back to him. Now for a monk with high perception and good initiative, the odds are good that an enemy will only get one attack in before he gets to full-attack them. After that, they usually aren't a problem.
Where I am more concerned your monk will be weak is where all monks tend to founder: accuracy.
Take your monk foes, and have them dip a level of empyral sorcerer, so they base off wisdom, and their two spells will be mage armor and shield. That means they get a +8 to their AC...and you watch the monk die, because he can't land a blow. This isn't an unfair test, some enemies WILL be hard to hit.
I'd say your player has succeeded, to an extent. On a full attack he's then doing potentially 3d8+47...that's way excessive, compared to a barbarian at 5th level, who could manage maybe 2d6+16. A fighter would be limited to 'only' 2d6+14 (that strength boost is very good).
I'm guessing you made it wisdom-to-damage-PLUS-strength...and there's your problem right there. One or the other is much better.
Now here's the thing about glass canons: hit hard enough, and it doesn't matter how bad your AC and hit points are. This what the barbarian relies on, that his enemy won't live long enough to do anything bad back to him. Now for a monk with high perception and good initiative, the odds are good that an enemy will only get one attack in before he gets to full-attack them. After that, they usually aren't a problem.
Where I am more concerned your monk will be weak is where all monks tend to founder: accuracy.
Take your monk foes, and have them dip a level of empyral sorcerer, so they base off wisdom, and their two spells will be mage armor and shield. That means they get a +8 to their AC...and you watch the monk die, because he can't land a blow. This isn't an unfair test, some enemies WILL be harder to hit, and combat classes should still be able to hit them.
Oh bloody hell... you're right. Not about everything, but you're right. This build is OP. I hate to admit it, but it's true.
Let me start with where I disagree, though:
- Par AC for a CR5 critter is 18 and high attack is +10. My player's monk has a to hit bonus of at least +10 (+11 if he and the target are touching the ground; +2 more if it's human) and an AC of 21. That means that, in a flurry, he hits on a par 10 or 11 and he gets hit on a par 11. He's easily on par with most combat builds at this level on to hit and AC, just under on HP and WAY over on damage.
- The problem with going either WIS to hit or ONLY WIS to damage (not stacking with STR) is that it nullifies the reason to go STR. I think there are two main strains of monks: STR/WIS and DEX/WIS (also I think there should be an archetype that substitutes CHA for WIS, but that's another story). Your approach to fixing the monk takes away nice things from STR and gives them to WIS. That's problematic in my eyes, because it messes up STR/WIS monks. I like DEX/WIS monks more, but I don't think it's fair to create a system where they're the only viable build.
- One huge issue with balancing any monk changes, I'm starting to realize, is the extra ki attacks. They're the equivalent of adding x/day free no-penalty melee rapid shot on top of TWF. Anything we do to improve the monk is going to get borked by having these extra attacks.
- I'm not terribly impressed by the empyreal sorcerer example. Shield and armor will only last 1 minute and 1 hour, respectively, for 2 casts each per day. Par AC for a CR8 critter is 21, so he'd hit ground targets on a 12 for most level-appropriate threats in a flurry.
- One of the things that totally borked my math was Dragon Style. In most cases, TWF gives +STR and +1/2xSTR (+STR & +STR with Double Slice and +1.5xSTR for another feat at BAB+11). Dragon Style gives, for two feats by level 5, +2xSTR for the first hit and +1.5STR for all the others.
- As I see it, these are the major combat aspects to the class and one or more may have to go: full BAB (which adds +2 to hit outside of flurries and the ability to use Weapon Focus and Power attack at level 1); leveled WIS to DAM stacking with STR (adds +4 to DAM in this example); leveled GMF effect (increases att & dam by 1 at every 4th level); flurry (which functions as TWF); extra ki attack (which increases flurry DPR by 50%).
In conclusion, I think the only way to really find out what exactly is OP here is to do DPR calculations using TWF fighters/rangers/barbarians as a benchmark. Do you think level 5 is an appropriate benchmark level or should we up it to level 10? The latter would be more fair, but it'd also be a lot more complicated. My vote is for the former. I'm going to start doing calculations and will post a link to the comparison spreadsheet (based on Tejon's legendary calculator).
Also, since we're basically trying to do the same thing here, I'd like to have all future discussions on your thread. Do you mind?
My own very simple monk fix: The monk can use the Flurry of Blows ability as a standard action or as part of a charge action, but when doing so they cannot make any iterative attacks, they only get two attacks.
- "Fakes" a full BAB by allowing movement + flurry.
- Allows the monk to be mobile, while still gaining an advantage from standing still and doing full attack.
- Helps most at low levels, where I feel the monk it weakest.
That's similar to what I did with ki, Starfox. It's not a fix, though, the monk still suffers lack of enhancement, and poor accuracy, and is still MAD as hell.
DL and I exchanged posts in my thread, I think the issue he has is that he's added wisdom to damage, and that's too much especially with Dragon Style.
My own very simple monk fix: The monk can use the Flurry of Blows ability as a standard action or as part of a charge action, but when doing so they cannot make any iterative attacks, they only get two attacks.
- "Fakes" a full BAB by allowing movement + flurry.
- Allows the monk to be mobile, while still gaining an advantage from standing still and doing full attack.
- Helps most at low levels, where I feel the monk it weakest.
If you take a look at my DPR analysis here, you'll see that's not nearly good enough. Basically, the only way a monk isn't a complete turd is if it's mega-optimized and, even then, it's only just par (the best is an unarmed monk using Dragon Style).
I recently made mighty fists a regular item enchantment for any worn item. Still playing with pricing however.
I suspect it's the human bane AMF that's pushing you over the edge, not wisdom to damage.
Put him against more varied opposition and a bane AMF becomes useless, reducing his damage by at least 1d6+2 and his accuracy by 2 if he goes for elemental effects or 2d6+2 if he goes for an ANA.
If you go on the other thread, you'll see that I already did all the relevant math and it's not the bane effect or Wis-to-DAM. It's Dragon Style and the Ki attacks. Both have to go for my rules to work. Dabbler works on different math, but I prefer mine.
I recently made mighty fists a regular item enchantment for any worn item. Still playing with pricing however.
Umm... how is that difficult? No offense, but the rules are pretty clear on that stuff. Should be same price as the amulet, plus a penalty if it's applied to something already enchanted. Also... I'll warn you that this could be subject to abuse (multiple items with a different magic weapon property would theoretically stack). Also, there's a reason why it's a neck slot item. That way you have to choose between that and amulet of natural armor (or take both and take the cost penalty).
I disagree that Dragon Style is overall broken - I think it's just showing up as very good at this level. I think that without Wis-to-damage in addition to strength is your long-term problem.