The thrilling story of a level 11 bloodrager trying to claw her way into tier 3
First off, I absolutely love the concept of the bloodrager - having the primal rage of the barbarian meet the exotic sorcerer bloodlines makes for a very cool hybrid of the base features. IMO, bloodrage feels like a marriage made in heaven (or hell/abyss/whatever, depending on your preferences), perfect for a truly monstrous or odd character. Combined with the melee focus and the unique limited arcane casting, I think the bloodrager is conceptually perhaps the most unique and interesting class in the playtest. Great idea, Paizo!
Since my group won't have the time for a regular play test, I decided to test the class myself by taking a bloodrager through three scenarios/encounters. Fortunately, a friend became interested and played Abyssal Abby instead. I wanted to see how well the class would fit with my group's play style: less numerous but a lot more challenging and lethal battles than according to guidelines, and PC builds mechanically optimized for party balance (we try to avoid easily game breaking unbalanced party configurations (like the classic fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue), instead deciding on a tier, usually 3, as a target for our PCs' power level). As the bloodrager seemed like basically an odd barbarian with a minor in arcane casting, I figured it could perhaps be possible to put together a build both true to it's character concept and with enough flexibility and raw power both in and out of combat to fullfill its melee striker/damage dealer role in a tier 3 party. IOW, in this test, I primarily looked at how well the fluff concept could be reflected in crunch and compared mechanical functionality and usefulness to builds of classes capable of filling a similar striker role in tier 3 (like a highly optimized Beast Totem/Spell Sunder barbarian or a hypothetical PF warblade).
Abby is a tiefling with some really worrisome deep rooted family issues. Most would say she seems unusually fiendish even when she's in a good and relaxed mood. The remarkably clear signs of those unfortunate family issues - her sinous tail, her black and orange skin, her smile having trouble hiding razor sharp pointed teeth - have sometimes even led learned men into mistaking her for a half-fiend. And yet, when angered, her demonic heritage is ten times as obvious, transforming her body into a large terrifying monster of flaming claws, long fangs and bulging muscles eager to unleash bloody carnage, her eyes burning with the violent fury and arcane power of her pit-born black blood.
Fortunately, despite all the prejudice and hatred Abby has faced in her life, she grew up to be a good-natured and warm-hearted person, her abyssal rage only awakened when confronted with truly evil beings.
The concept I was aiming for was something like a more scary demonic fantasy version of the Hulk, kind of the classic werewolf/Mr. Hyde theme taken to its maximum in PF.
Level 11 CG demon-spawn tiefling bloodrager
(bloodrage incl. demonic bulk values in parenthesis)
Speed 40; Initiative 5 (4); Darkvision 60 ft.
Defense
AC 25 (21), touch 15 (11), flat-footed 22 (19)
HP 109 (153), DR 2/, Resist 5 electricity (5 acid, cold, fire)
Fort 11 (14), Ref 9 (8), Will 5 (8), CMD 33 (36)
Offense
Melee - bloodrage power attack vs. Evil:
2 claws +19*, 4d6+18, +1d6 fire
bite** +19*, 1d8+2d6+18
gore** +18, 1d8+2d6+17
*Includes the +1 bonus of Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes. **Does not require bloodrage
Abby's natural attacks have the good aligned and magic qualities.
Space 5 (10) ft.; Reach 5 (10) ft.; CMB 19* (23*)
Eldritch Heritage Abyssal Bloodline Claws:
6 times/day, Abby can make 2 additional claw attacks when taking the full attack action.
Cornugon Smash:
with each Power Attack dealing damage, free demoralize attempt: +21 (25) Intimidate check vs. DC 10 +target's HD +wis mod.
DPR (incl. crits) and average damage of power attacks vs. AC 24:
claw: 30 DPR
76% chance of 35.5 avrg normal dmg (26.98) + 4% chance of 71 avrg crit dmg (2.84)
bite: 25 DPR
76% chance of 29.5 avrg normal dmg (22.42) + 4% chance of 59 avrg crit dmg (2.36)
gore: 22 DPR
71.25% chance of 28.5 avrg normal dmg (20.31) + 3.75% chance of 57 avrg crit damage (2.14)
FULL ATTACK: 107 DPR
2 x 29.82 (2 claws) + 29.78 (bite) + 22.45 (gore)with Eldritch Heritage Claws: 161 DPR
106.87 (full attack DPR) + 2 x 27.17 (2 claws @ -1 atk/dmg)Demoralize chance of success vs. DC 28: 68% per claw/bite, 64% per gore/eldritch claw
80% (claws, bite) or 75% (gore, eldritch claws) hit chance and 85% chance of success per hit (intimidate 24 vs. 16 HD/wis 15 enemy)
Spells
1st 3/day: cause fear*, color spray, floating disc, grease, shield, vanish2nd 2/day: bull's strength*, defensive shock, brow gasher, glitterdust, invisibility
3rd 2/day: blink, major image, monstrous physique I
*Abyssal Bloodline bonus spell
Greater Bloodrage 27 rounds/day: +6 str, +6 con, +3 will, may choose to include demonic bulk
Demonic Bulk large size: as enlarge person (+5 ft. space/reach, +2 str, +1 CMB/CMD, -2 dex, -1 BAB, AC)
Skills
Acrobatics 9 (8), Climb 12 (16), Disable Device 21, Intimidate +21 (25), Knowledge (arcana) 3, Knowledge (planes) 2, Perception 16, Stealth 7*, Swim 12 (15)
*Including bonuses and penalties from ioun stone
Abilities
(20 point buy) Str 24 (32), Dex 16 (14), Con 16 (24), Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
Feats
Fiendish Heritage (demon-spawn, additonal +2 cha), Raging Vitality, Skill Focus (Knowledge (planes)), Power Attack*, Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal Bloodline), Intimidating Prowess*, Cornugon Smash, Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss)
*Abyssal Bloodline bonus feat
Traits
Alternate Racial Traits: Maw, Prehensile Tail, Scaled Skin
Traits: Reactionary, Vagabond Child (Disable Device)
Notable Items
+3 Mithral Breastplate, Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1 Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes, +2 Cloak of Resistance, +2 Belt of Physical Perfection, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Headband of Alluring Charisma, Wing Harness (10 charges), Boots of Speed, Helm of the Mammoth Lord, Flawed Pale Ruby Trillian, mwk thieves' tools
Haven't looked up the total sum of this stuff and compared it to the WBL table, but it should be pretty close.
Comments
I've basically tried to pack as many effective demon related options as possible into a level 11 bloodrager build, trying to find good synergies between the mechanics (Cha-based casting, fiendish heritage benefit, intimidating prowess etc) that I also think reflect the concept well (natural attacks, high intimidate skill, cornugon smash etc). One of the more fun and flavorful additions I think is the Eldritch Heritage feat chain, adding powers from the sorcerer Abyssal Bloodline to the Bloodrager Abyssal Bloodline. This gives Abby clawed feet to match her hands for a kick-a$$ (pun intended) damage boost with a few full attacks per day plus a higher strength, and, most importantly, makes her (almost) twice as demonic! Cuz dis fiend biatch be WAY down kickin' it witta real cruel crew, aight! Yeah, she be one phat flamin' hot bada$$ mutha'f- ...
Ehrm... Got a bit carried away there, sorry...
This was a rather hastily put together series of situations designed to test Abyssal Abby's abilities, but as my friend decided to play her (and then did so with the passion worthy of an Oscar) the story and challenges had to become quite a bit more elaborate. But I'll to spare you from reading all that here (and spare me from writing it) and focus on Abby's mechanical performance and how well it meshes with the concept instead.
As Abby is without a party, I've tried to put together challenges which could represent her responsibilities in a party, i.e. the situations she would be expected to solve without needing to rest and using a minimum of party resources. Abby has also been given a unique home brew item - The Heal-o-meter Rod - to simulate party healing resources. When a creature holds this rod with both hands for at least one round, she gains fast healing 10 for as long as she maintains her grip, but also becomes immobile and loses all senses except that of time passing. The rod doesn't require any concentration (Abby can use it while raging).
The mayor of the small town of Cloudfall, an old acquaintance of Abby, has asked our young adventurer to look into recent mysterious disappearances and sightings of terrible creatures in the area. First, Abby decides to try and investigate the unusually friendly and civilized local tribe of kobolds, the "Aussirnoach", that used to trade with the town but now hasn't been seen in weeks.
Kobold Conundrum!
CR ?: Several challenges, of easy to medium difficulty, primarily involving disable device, stealth and intimidate(/diplomacy) in the maze-like home of the Aussirnoach kobold tribe
Not surprisingly, Abby managed this well - she got the info she needed to continue, a way to even the odds a bit in her upcoming encounter with the dragon Albriinah and was also able to release prisoners, all within the time limit and without making her presence known to the kobolds prematurely or having to resort to lethal violence (bonus points!). The only worry here was her dependency on limited resources, especially spells and items.
Resources Spent: 1 round of sorcerer bloodline claws (5 left), 1 1st level spell slot (2 left), 1 2nd level spell slot (1 left), 2 rounds of bloodrage (25 left), 3 rounds of haste (7 left), 1 min. of fly (9 left), 35 HP healed
Dragon Drama!
CR 11+ (approx. 15.000 xp): Albriinah - Mature Adult White Dragon (CR 11) in a temple ruin perched at the snow-clad peak of a mountain (terrain and the need to keep the dragon from escaping with a vital item makes the encounter harder than CR 11)
Abby succeeds here as well, killing the dragon after a demoralizing surprise charge followed by a round of trading claws and fangs with Albriinah in an orgy of natural attacks (six by the dragon and seven by Abby!). But this encounter was both difficult and dangerously swingy, largely because Abby has no effective means to improve her action economy. Consequently it would've been near impossible for her to succeed had as much as one critical roll of the die been less lucky.
For example, Albriinah likely would have killed Abby if she had been spotted and robbed of her surprise attack, which could easily have been the case despite Abby's carfulness and decision to charge flying from afar rather than risk the hazardous terrain or sneaking closer (she had been warned the dragon was perceptive but didn't know of its blindsight). And had Abby reduced Albriinah to about half HP or less without killing her, it's likely the dragon simply would've withdrawn from melee and taken to the air instead - either to flee with the item or to blast Abby with her breath and spells - which would've made Abby easy prey, or at least made the situation near unsolvable due to the dragon's very high fly speed and Abby having no time for a prolonged hunt or to wait for another day.
Resources Spent: 1 round of sorcerer bloodline claws (4 left), 1 1st level spell slot (1 left), 2 rounds of bloodrage (23 left), 1 round of haste (6 left), 1 min. of fly (8 left), 89 HP healed (124 in total)
Zombie Bonanza!
CR 13+ (approx. 30.000 xp): Voidstick Zombie (CR 12) commanding a pair of Cloud Giant Zombies (each CR 7) and a "trap" which creates an additonal cloud giant zombie every third round of combat at (set) initiative 20 (1 round action to shut down), in a large dark cathedral.
Thanks to several spells, notably blink and haste, clever positioning and pure luck, Abby managed to shut down the "zombie generator" after having barely survived six rounds of intense combat against a total of five zombies. At first, this encounter felt slightly less risky than the dragon, mostly because the giant zombies are lacking in good ranged offense, mobility, AC and any form of tactical sense without their voidstick leader to command them, but it soon turned out to be the nightmare I had hoped for. These shuffling brain eaters' most dangerous advantages are size and very high attack bonuses, combined with the the undead trait and the voidstick zombie's lifesense ability (making them immune to Abby's demoralize attempts and in practice also stealth or a surprise attack from Abby). As with the dragon, Abby was especially lacking in abilities improving her action economy, making this final encounter very difficult.
Resources Spent: 4 rounds of sorcerer bloodline claws (0 left), 1 1st level spell slot (0 left), 2 3rd level spell slots (0 left), 7 rounds of bloodrage (16 left), 6 rounds of haste (0 left), 132 HP healed (256 in total)
My friend loved playing Abby and said she'd like to continue her adventures. I also had a great time building and DM:ing the bloodrager, but I've already told you I love the flavor of the class. Here I will instead primarily give my opinions on the mechanics, especially those I believe don't achieve their goal and/or poorly represent the flavor, plus my suggestions on how to improve those less functional mechanics. As I've deliberately avoided reading most threads related to the class in order to make my own impressions and minimize any potential prejudism, it's likely I'll repeat some things here that have already been said several times by other posters. I apologize for any such needless repetition, but it seemed better than the alternative.
The Good and the Bad
Good (or at least not bad)
- 1 Good high tier 4 melee striker
- 2 No single no-brainer mechanical build (AFAICT)
- 3 Great flavor
Bad
- 1 Not good enough for tier 3
- 2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic
- 3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting
- 4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness
- 5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits
- 6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place
Good (or at least not bad)
1 Good high tier 4 melee striker:
The bloodrager seems about comparable to the average barbarian or paladin, meaning it's likely balanced to most other tier 4-5 classes.
2 No single no-brainer mechanical build:
AFAICT, no single Bloodline or build combo seems vastly mechanically superior (compare to for example a human sorcerer or rage-cycling pouncing superstitious barbarian). This might very well just be me not seeing it though...
3 Great flavor:
Mostly a question of taste, of course, but I think even people who don't particularly appreciate the flavor will agree it's at least distinct and unique enough.
Bad
1 Not good enough for tier 3:
IMO, if there's one thing PF desperately needs, it's full-BAB classes firmly above tier 4, classes with the raw power and flexibility to at least match the bard, inquisitor and magus. And the bloodrager seems like a perfect candidate to become the first, needing only a few changes and additions to get there.
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic:
Simply put, the magus spell list requires a mechanic which allows for casting in the same round as attacking. As it stands, I don't think the spell list have enough useful options to even fill the few spells known by a bloodrager. (I think less than nine of the twelwe spells my test bloodrager Abby knew were good and useful spells (she only found a use for five of those in the short test adventure), and I have a hard time seeing very different selections being much better for other builds, despite Abby's list being matched with expensive items and intended for solo adventuring.)
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting:
Related to #2, the bloodrager is primarily a melee class and simply cannot afford to keep all her physical abilities more than decent as well as her cha anyway near high enough to make offensive casting worthwhile. At least not without a good mechanic allowing casting in melee and scaling bonuses to spell DC.
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness:
Seems to me that for example the Abyssal and Arcane Bloodlines are clearly more powerful than the Fey or Undead Bloodlines. Would be great to see tuned up versions of the weaker Bloodlines.
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits:
I think most benefits seem to be pretty much in line with the flavor and theme of the Bloodline they belong to. But it appears either as if many of them have been chosen without considering how well they match with the Bloodline's other benefits mechanically, or as if most Bloodlines have no clear mechanical objectives, causing many benefits to be well-suited thematically but all over the place mechanically.
A few examples from the Abyssal Bloodline: A) Trademark power seems to be the claws at 1st level, but for example the list of bonus feats offer generic combat feats (most of them being subpar and/or irrelevant for natural attacks) and the bonus spells focus on strength, fear and increased AC, while no benefit focuses on the claws (besides the claws power itself). Which begs the question: were the Abyssal bloodrager intended to use the claws as a default weapon? If so, why does the list of bonus feats include, for example, Cleave, Impr. Bull Rush and Impr. Sunder rather than Impr. Natural Attack, Impr. Unarmed Strike and Feral Combat Training? Why not magic fang instead of cause fear? If the claws are only intended as an alternative for odd niche characters to focus on, or something which might, at best, be situationally useful in one fight every fifth level or so when the bloodrager has lost her manufactured weapons, why allow the claws to define the Bloodline as much? B) The bonus spells cause fear and bull's strength may be thematically fitting, but they're gained at level 7 and 10, long after they've become near useless or redundant.
There are several weird mechanically ill-suited "benefits" like these to be found in the play test Bloodlines, especially among the bonus feats and spells and especially, I suspect, if those are mostly just copied from the sorcerer version of the bloodline.
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place:
I think the bloodrager gets more than enough from the barbarian through proficiencies, BAB, saves and the whole rage feature chain. It would also be more in line with the hybrid concept if the bloodrager used spells to get similar benefits.
Suggestions
Corresponding to the points in the "Bad" list above:
1 Not good enough for tier 3:
I would propose giving the bloodrager 3/4 casting like the summoner/inquisitor, but with only half the spell slots per level open to any known spell, and half the spells known per level chosen from the class list (see #2). I would change Fast Movement into something pounce-ish scaling up to a "mini-capstone" at level 10. Perhaps a full-round action including the casting of an instant damage spell and then a charge ending with up to half the number of melee attacks the bloodrager can make in a full attack. ("Arcane Assault"? "Bloodrace"? Or maybe "Spellpounce"? Wouldn't recommend "Bloodpounce" or "Spellrace" though...)
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic:
The bloodrager likely needs its own list, regardless of casting mechanics and number of spells/day. I would suggest a limited mix of blasts, self-buffs and a little utility from the sorcerer's list for the mentioned "half summoner/inquisitor"-slots, plus an equal number of "Bloodline slots/known" chosen from a very short list unique to each Bloodline (primarily containing instant damage spells). The Bloodline spells would require raging but receive a scaling bonus to DC.
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting:
See above. If staying with the ranger/paladin number of spell slots/known, I would definitely suggest a scaling bonus to DC.
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness:
Should sort itself out with this play test. I would very much recommend not to tone down the more powerful though, but rather tune up the less powerful ones. See also #5 and #6.
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits:
Since many of these problems seem to stem from Bloodline benefits being copied from the sorcerer versions, I guess this is mainly a question of checking each Bloodline's copied benefits and change those with poor mechanical functionality/consistency. I would also urge that each Bloodline gets evaluated and fixed until the answer is "yes" to the following four questions:
a) "Does the Bloodline have a clear and unique mechanical intent applicable to the bloodrager?" (is it clear what unique type of bloodrager the combined benefits are supposed to enable),
b) "Does the Bloodline's mechanics work towards that intent?",
c) "Does the mechanics support each other and the other bloodrager class mechanics well?", and
d) "Are the resulting combined mechanical benefits balanced to the other Bloodlines?"
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place:
Dump 'em.
Well, that's finally the end of my wall of text. I hope someone has the stamina to read it and find at least some useful info or ideas there.
Cool playtest! I'll note that I believe they finally cracked down on the "claws on the feet" thing and said that bipeds can only have talons on feet, so that would subtract two attacks. Don't know how much that would change things.
Cool playtest! I'll note that I believe they finally cracked down on the "claws on the feet" thing and said that bipeds can only have talons on feet, so that would subtract two attacks. Don't know how much that would change things.
Ooops! Didn't know about that (just went by the natural attack limitations of 1/limb and the eidolon claws evo which allows clawed feet on bipeds).
Do you know if there's an FAQ or similar on this? I couldn't find anything.
And this would've changed things quite a lot. Abby would most probably have been killed by the dragon and definitely not managed to survive the zombies. Though if she had been able to pounce instead...
Anyhow, the whole Abyssal Bloodline double whammy wouldn't have been worth it without the claws, meaning the build would've been different to begin with.
Though I haven't seen how much smelly cheese clawed feet are able to dig up, I have a hard time imagining how it could be anyway near game breaking. Which makes me think it's kinda sad they've cracked down on the poor little footsies (which must have hurt like hell). Couldn't they just have put a minimum level requirement on it to get rid of early level lawn mowers while not throwing out one of the few ways to keep natural attacks competitive in high levels?
Ah well, at least Abby got her one day of heroic adventuring and perhaps 15 minutes of web fame.
*sigh*
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.Bad
1 Not good enough for tier 3
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place
I think 2 and 3 go together. But I dont think this is a major issue as your offence should come from raging and smashing face. The spells should give you utility or help cover other weaknesses.
I completely agree with 3 and 4, same issue I had with my play test.
I enjoyed fast movement, I think it goes with the whole rage thing. I would agree that Uncanny dodge and DR could get removed for more uniques abilities.
Good Read, Thanks for posting.
I think 2 and 3 go together. But I dont think this is a major issue as your offence should come from raging and smashing face. The spells should give you utility or help cover other weaknesses.Bad
1 Not good enough for tier 3
2 Very limited offense-focused spell list and no supporting action economy mechanic
3 Too MAD for functional offensive casting
4 Bloodlines are too varied in power/usefulness
5 Poor matching of most Bloodlines' mechanical benefits
6 Fast Movement and especially Uncanny Dodge seem out of place
Well, yes, I think that's how the bloodrager currently plays because it doesn't have anything enabling a gish style. Which makes the magus' spell list such a weird choice (the summoner's would've been more reasonable, mechanically speaking). But judging from my interpretation of the fluff and the fact the designers initially decided to give it the magus list, it seems the bloodrager is/was supposed to be a gish, though leaning heavily towards the melee side. Which is why I propose the casting should be boosted to a "gimped" 3/4 with a limited number of instant damage spells being possible to cast while in melee combat.
This would certainly make the bloodrager the most powerful full BAB class in the game, but as it still would be decidedly less powerful than say the sorcerer or summoner (not to mention the wizard, druid, witch or cleric), I think that's excellent. Both in terms of balance and in terms of flavor, PF currently has a gaping whole where there should be a powerful primary melee class, IMO.
(Granted, I would even more appreciate a truly flexible full BAB class which doesn't rely on spells, but that doesn't seem to be high on Paizo's list of priorities and neither would such a class fit with the bloodrager's hybrid theme. And I've noticed a 3rd PP is releasing a splat in the same vein as ToB which looks very promising, so I'll hopefully find that anyway.)
I completely agree with 3 and 4, same issue I had with my play test.
I'm interested in hearing more about your play test and the issues you had/found with the class. Have you perhaps posted feedback here? (I'll do a search in a mo'...)
I enjoyed fast movement, I think it goes with the whole rage thing. I would agree that Uncanny dodge and DR could get removed for more uniques abilities.
I totally agree with you that UD and DR should be the first things to go from the default features (certain bloodlines could still include them, of course). Anyhow, I guess I wouldn't have questioned fast movement if it was originally tied to rage, rather than the reflection of the barb's "primal raider/nomad" quality which it seems to be. I feel even a modest caster such as the bloodrager doesn't have the same need or interest in developing such an extraordinary ability. (I mean, they'd only need to cast haste to become much faster than a barb...)
Good Read, Thanks for posting.
Thanks! And thanks for reading it, despite the wordiness... And you're welcome! :D