I think a red dragon is a bit to arrogant to have clones and every contingeny the game can provide. They May have around 22 in the mental stats at great wyrm level. But they will be acting out of character if they have spend half the hoard on magic protection and stuff.
Just like Sauron never dreamt they would destroy the ring, the red great wyrms only really weakness would be its arrogance and Evil.
But killing it? Pehaps my gunslinger(musket Master) cohort, buffed and loaded up with named bullets, would have a sohoi level and like my level 20 divider have the look out feat.
That would be somthing like 6 attacks vs. Touch attacks and auto crit doing somthing like 4d12+108 if he dosent Roll 1:)
If i ditent have a gunslinger butler i would think of somthing different:)
There's a LOT that they can do for relatively little money. Simulacrum, for instance, is quite inexpensive.
Granted, if they were solely focused on survival then all powerful dragons would be living in vast Demiplanes with herds of cattle and other things.
As always it is good to optimize a dragon's use of its resources (while maintaining a horde) to a level equal to or a step above the party. Same with most very intelligent creatures. It helps to grab some 3.5 spells and feats too, since there was a lot of dragon content there.
I think a red dragon is a bit to arrogant to have clones and every contingeny the game can provide. They May have around 22 in the mental stats at great wyrm level. But they will be acting out of character if they have spend half the hoard on magic protection and stuff.
Just like Sauron never dreamt they would destroy the ring, the red great wyrms only really weakness would be its arrogance and Evil.
But killing it? Pehaps my gunslinger(musket Master) cohort, buffed and loaded up with named bullets, would have a sohoi level and like my level 20 divider have the look out feat.
That would be somthing like 6 attacks vs. Touch attacks and auto crit doing somthing like 4d12+108 if he dosent Roll 1:)
If i ditent have a gunslinger butler i would think of somthing different:)
There's a LOT that they can do for relatively little money. Simulacrum, for instance, is quite inexpensive.
Granted, if they were solely focused on survival then all powerful dragons would be living in vast Demiplanes with herds of cattle and other things.
As always it is good to optimize a dragon's use of its resources (while maintaining a horde) to a level equal to or a step above the party. Same with most very intelligent creatures. It helps to grab some 3.5 spells and feats too, since there was a lot of dragon content there.
I think a red great wyrm can be a challenge without 3.5 splat books.
But it is clear that if this was to happend in a Real game then there would need to be some difference from the bestiary version of the beast.
I think a red dragon is a bit to arrogant to have clones and every contingeny the game can provide. They May have around 22 in the mental stats at great wyrm level. But they will be acting out of character if they have spend half the hoard on magic protection and stuff.
Just like Sauron never dreamt they would destroy the ring, the red great wyrms only really weakness would be its arrogance and Evil.
But killing it? Pehaps my gunslinger(musket Master) cohort, buffed and loaded up with named bullets, would have a sohoi level and like my level 20 divider have the look out feat.
That would be somthing like 6 attacks vs. Touch attacks and auto crit doing somthing like 4d12+108 if he dosent Roll 1:)
If i ditent have a gunslinger butler i would think of somthing different:)
There's a LOT that they can do for relatively little money. Simulacrum, for instance, is quite inexpensive.
Granted, if they were solely focused on survival then all powerful dragons would be living in vast Demiplanes with herds of cattle and other things.
As always it is good to optimize a dragon's use of its resources (while maintaining a horde) to a level equal to or a step above the party. Same with most very intelligent creatures. It helps to grab some 3.5 spells and feats too, since there was a lot of dragon content there.
I think a red great wyrm can be a challenge without 3.5 splat books.
But it is clear that if this was to happend in a Real game then there would need to be some difference from the bestiary version of the beast.
Of course he can. I'm just pointing out that there are tons and tons of things a prepared dragon can have ready. Any dragon should have at least a few things ready. Even an arrogant one that's old is going to know there are other dragons and powerful beings out there. Arrogant to the point of stupidity would probably have killed them already.
Edit1: But like I said, a DM should base the preparedness in part on what the players are capable of. Book dragons are more or less fine with some basic stuff if your players are pretty average in effectiveness. If they really know how to work their tactics and the system, you'll need to step up accordingly. If they are really incompetent, well, then a prepared dragon is just mean.
Edit2: But I do think a major enemy like a dragon is one where you should try to push your players to up their game a bit, generally speaking.
35 Cha + greater spell focus + spell perfection + free heighten + magical lineage + dazing + greater metamagic rod of ice = DC 34 reflex save dazing icy fireball. Dragon needs to roll a 20.
varisian tattoo + spell specialization + spell perfection + greater spell penetration + orange ioun stone = +33 overcoming spell resistance. You need to not roll a 1.
Thats basically unblockable. fire a second heightened quickened dazing icy fireball to be sure. Now you have 9 rounds to blast it with polar rays, frozen orbs, dragon breath, more dazing icy heightened fireballs, etc, while it sits there dazed. A rod of spell piercing may speed things up.
Initiative: Dex uh +4, dueling cestus +4, greensting scorpion +4, reactionary +2, Improved initiative +4 = +18 to your rolls
Hire a first level halfling cleric with the law domain, reduce person on it, and tie it to your belt to give you 'a touch of law' in case you don't like rolling. I prefer to have the little guy rub my inner thigh.
You can just do it in a vaccum like this. You're already glazing over the hardest parts of beating the dragon. You're assuming you can find him, get to his lair, avoid his traps and magic, and that he isn't prepared to be fighting spell casters (which are arguably the most threatening things to him). You're also assuming the dragon wont get a surprise round on you. Which he probably will since you're in his lair.
It's easy to say "I trot out the most powerful spell I can which targets all his weakest points which should enable me to kill him without him being capable of fighting back", it should be near impossible to actually do.
In my mind there is really no way a single spell caster (or any single individual) to defeat a dragon if the dragon is played properly. Someone with a greater command of the magic in this games needs to design the most impenetrably well defended lair they can to protect from magical threats (and threats in...
easy. He's bigger than the field. Fireball to the derriere.
And frankly, If the dragon gets to buff and trap his lair forever, then I get to scry it. Now you have a schrodinger battle.
Basically what I was showing was that 18th level caster builds can be made to be superior mechanically to this creature, and therefore can win a fight. I chose a draconic fire sorcerer because I had the build handy. If you notice, the only magic items I bothered to cite using for WBL were a few rods, a dex belt, a cha headband, a cha tome, a +1 dueling weapon, and an ioun stone. Add a sorcerer robe to that and the character is flat out immune to fire. That leaves hundreds of thousands of gold pieces worth of goodies to use to subvert any additional BS that the dragon my try to protect itself with. But there are so many moves and counters that it is basically irrelevant to try to analyze theoretically.
But a staff of mages disjunction time stop would probably take care of most of them.
So the point was to look at the actual battle.
The steps to winning the actual battle are straightforward:
1.) win initiative. (+16 advantage without the creepy halfling)
2.) Dazing blast targeting reflex save supercharged to be unblockable by save or SR. (over 90% success rate here before creepy halfling)
3.) take dex to 0. (9 rounds to land enough polar rays and/or) calcific touches to remove 6 dex points. The SR only blocks about half the spells on average.)
4.) remove remaining hp. (get a wand of summon monster 4 and just spam out lantern archons if you're feeling lazy)
5.) Profit.
There are also a lot of spells that subvert that. Like lesser planar binding 2 dozen CR2 outsiders, buffing them for stealth, and sending them in scouting.
So again, Schrodinger battle.
In fact, just to shorten up this discussion, here is how the dragon kills the mage:
1.) Dragon realizes that the defender is always at a disadvantage and dispenses with sitting in the lair entirely.
2.) Dragon polymorphs into a halfling cleric and goes and signs up with the wizard.
3.) Dragon coup de graces the wizard in his sleep.
or something similar. Basically step 1 is the important part.
Again, I am looking at specifically the point where both foes are aware of each other, neither has pre-buffed themselves, and the GM says roll initiative because everything else is speculation.
In that scenario, the caster has the initiative advantage and the ability to render the dragon locked down through dazing metamagic in the first round reliably. The rest is history and speculation.
So what is more realistic to you? How many rounds of buffing shall we give the dragon as an advantage? What gear do you want it to have? Maybe give it some cohorts? Maybe we should tie the wizard up?
It isn't pants down if it is the monster from the bestiary and a wizard and a comparison of advantages.
So what is more realistic to you? How many rounds of buffing shall we give the dragon as an advantage? What gear do you want it to have? Maybe give it some cohorts? Maybe we should tie the wizard up?
It isn't pants down if it is the monster from the bestiary and a wizard and a comparison of advantages.
It's pants down if you assume the wizard has attacked something that has a fortified and well-known area and expended no resources doing so. And the fact they both notice each other at the same time when the dragon has far superior defenses is more than a bit unlikely.
But if your point is that a dragon that's poorly run and served up to be slaughtered by the PCs will die to a high level wizard easy...well, I was never arguing against that. On the other hand, a dragon that takes just as much time as the wizard prepping and preparing (and really the dragon has much, much more time) will be much harder to kill.
Even with triple wealth at CR 22, the dragon has less resources than an 18th level character by encounter treasure tables.
So is the encounter more fair if the dragon gets more resources? Is it more fair if the dragon gets to specifically prep for a single caster invading its home turf while the caster must have a standard build to handle any situation?
The problem with your entire argument is that you are not providing a stationary metric for an 18th level caster to challenge.
Shall we assume that the dragon is in a fortified area? How big is it? Can we assume that the dragon is always there and will never go out to go burn a town or something? What traps are there specifically? What are their CR's so we can add them to the already CR 22 encounter? What are these mysterious defenses that you speak of? Can they make the dragon win initiative? Can they get him a surprise round? What will his opening move be?
You cant just say the dragon is poorly run, not offer any alternatives past handwaving and mumbling something about a fortified lair, and expect me to take you seriously. So, what does the dragon actually do?
Bfobar: At the very least, an ancient red dragon does not live in a cave. Either the dragon will be the emperor of a grand empire and have a few hundred CR's of guards, or if it's an antisocial loner dragon will probably have a lair set up in a secret demiplane with the only access point being deep in the elemental plane of fire.
Last time I played in a high-level campaign (this was back in 3.5), we actually did assault an ancient red dragon's lair as one of our final adventures. While it did not have a demiplane (this was a 3.5 core only game, no splat allowed so no demiplane creation) it's lair was deep within the elemental plane of fire, and included well over a dozen traps as well as demon servants. And this was the third of it's lairs we attacked; the first two had shown themselves to just be illusiory fakes.
So well, we've actually got some experience fighting an ancient red. Now, it was 3.5 and in a game where we used no efreeti chain bindings, simulacra abuse or similar shenanigans, but we were a whole party of level 18 characters and it was still a very hard fight (we actually didn't even manage to kill it, but it fled, which for our purposes was enough at that time).
I've killed some dragons in my time too, you know.
And what you've shown here is that killing a dragon is an adventure in an of itself. That's great. That's fun. That's irrelevant to the topic.
Look at the first post again. It's tactics and build advice to be able to combat a dragon solo.
I mean, you overcame the challenges. You dispatched the servants. You found the correct layer in the correct elemental plane. You eventually got to the dragon AND FOUGHT IT.
Great. Now, how did you defeat it? Let us say hypothetically that all those traps and servants and false trails were so devious and expensive that they incapacitated your entire party save yourself, a 18th level caster. Then the dragon drops out of the ceiling or whatever to finish your wounded self and incapacitated party off. Could you still win the fight?
The build I posted can. With 1 hp. The only hope the dragon has is to incapacitate him somehow in a surprise round or to get lucky and win initiative.
So can we dispense with the crap yet? Hell give the dragon a surprise round. What is its move? Breath weapon? Improved Vital Strike? Cast a spell? Now I'm curious if I can improve my sorcerer build (I know not a wizard, but close) enough to survive getting surprised by a red dragon and still pull off a win.
Again here is my stipulation: YOU AND YOUR PARTY BLOW ALL RESOURCES SAVE YOUR OWN TO GET THROUGH ALL PREPLANNED DEFENSES. There are no more. Now its the dragon. He gets a surprise round. What does he do?
Personally, I would try to go with dropping a prismatic wall behind the caster with the standard action action and then bull rush the wizard through it with a contingency telekenesis (contingency: telekenetically hurl a foe in front of me straight backwards when I say "boo". thats a free action)
Even the bestiary version of the dragon has Quicken Spell so a spell on top of whatever else the dragon does is quite likely. My Loremaster would generally assume any foe with significant casting ability (whether a Dragon, Outsider, another wizard etc.) very likely has Quicken Spell and/or Quicken SLA until somehow proven otherwise.
Now RD said it is moot in his earlier reply and maybe it's lack of familiarity with PF on my part (as it certainly isn't from running high level casters/characters in general) but for me this isn't moot when it comes to preventing the dragon from getting the drop on myself as I've no particular desire to find out the Wyrm has his own version of bfobar's Dazing Fireball. My Loremaster (a 3.5E character just to be clear) does have permanent See Invisibility and Darkvision by 18th level or so. But as far as I can recall other than using Limited Wish or similar (and hoping the DM allows it) he has no way to see this dragon at range in a smokey environment (even using Shapechange/Form of the Dragon far as I can tell won't give me the ability to see thru the smoke). And I personally can't see the Dragon not using this ability to his advantage by living in a perpetually smokey lair wherever that might be (private demiplane, heart of a volcano, plane of Fire etc.) Or maybe I have a different picture of the net effect of this ability --> me standing with no cover or concealment and in plain sight of the Wyrm albeit he's 200+ feet away thru the haze. Granted this is an assumed set up since I was "plopped" into the lair. Otherwise I'd likely be using Arcane Eye and Prying Eyes/Greater Prying Eyes to start exploring the lair and maybe those manage to see the dragon before he acts or sees me (or if his party a very stealthy Rogue and the Eyes are moving in advance).
Forcing the foe thru a Prismatic Wall (and over/into lava) is one solid strategy but Telekinesis does have one weak point, its using a Will save based attack when going after a Wizard or Sorcerer (and probably most other caster types as well) and that's assuming they fall within the weight limitations of the spell. Make that a Dazing Prismatic Wall. What do you do as the targeted victim of a Dazing spell? What are the options beside Heal for a solo arcanist to counter or recover from being Dazed?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Peet wrote:
How are you keeping yourself out of the area of the dust of choking and sneezing? If you cast it into the air, you will be within it's area of effect. If you have it in a little bag and throw the bag at someone then you are not casting it into the air, which strictly speaking means it doesn't work, since you have to cast it into the air.
The guy delivering the coup de grace would not be the one administering the dust. I believe someone mentioned unseen servant earlier--a good idea that.
Even with triple wealth at CR 22, the dragon has less resources than an 18th level character by encounter treasure tables.
The dragon doesn't need all that many resources. His defensive abilities are good for instance.
Like I said before, Simulacrums, multiple layers, explosive runesx50000, divinations, etc. The vast majority of tricks a high level caster can do, a top-end CR dragon can do. And the dragon has had hundreds of years to work on his plots, plans, and so forth.
But Polymorph into a scared damsel in distress running for her life then Anti-Magic Shell and grappling is one way to go in combat. Good to toss in a few other innocent damsels along the way, and use a simulacrum dragon to help pull it off.
All that assumes no magic items or resources used beyond basic spells. And a dragon could easily have a lair on a suitable elemental plane if they are high level. Or a red one just in a volcano that it can flood with lava.
Again, the exact nature of the tricks and traps the DM sets up should depend on how optimized the party is. No reason to setup a TPK. The overall point though is that you can't just assume a dragon is going to march up in front of you and ask to have tactic A used on it. Getting to the point where you can use tactic A is going to be a battle in and of itself.
How are you keeping yourself out of the area of the dust of choking and sneezing? If you cast it into the air, you will be within it's area of effect. If you have it in a little bag and throw the bag at someone then you are not casting it into the air, which strictly speaking means it doesn't work, since you have to cast it into the air.
The guy delivering the coup de grace would not be the one administering the dust. I believe someone mentioned unseen servant earlier--a good idea that.
Also:
Mage Hand - (GM might say not be able to do "delicate activities", see Telekinesis, Unseen Servant may have similar issues, it's a pretty simple servant :p May be moot as well as the Servant isn't going to last long in the Wyrm's Fiery Aura)
Telekinesis - (depending on DM might call for a check for "delicate activities")
Teleport Object - (perhaps, magical forces can't be targeted but I'm thinking the Dust and its container does not qualify as a 'force')
Any Summoned or Called creature - sucks to be summoned, recommend grabbing something with Quickened Teleport if possible.
@RD Please excuse the earlier thought about True Strike and using the Dust, not quite sure where or what my grey matter was up to there. Think it was getting confuzzled thinking about attack rolls and concealment. The Dust doesn't need any attack roll unless your GM is making something up so you don't end up Dusting yourself but only your target.
Look at the first post again. It's tactics and build advice to be able to combat a dragon solo.
I mean, you overcame the challenges. You dispatched the servants. You found the correct layer in the correct elemental plane. You eventually got to the dragon AND FOUGHT IT.
Great. Now, how did you defeat it? Let us say hypothetically that all those traps and servants and false trails were so devious and expensive that they incapacitated your entire party save yourself, a 18th level caster. Then the dragon drops out of the ceiling or whatever to finish your wounded self and incapacitated party off. Could you still win the fight?
The build I posted can. With 1 hp. The only hope the dragon has is to incapacitate him somehow in a surprise round or to get lucky and win initiative.
Actually, the first post makes no such claim as to the dragon being already out-tricked:
Hobgoblin Shogun wrote:
Assuming you're a high level wizard, what would be the best methods of taking down a Dragon, let's say a Red Dragon? Let's say 9th level spells.
Summon a bunch of Fire Elements? Freeze it in ice? Cast Fiery Body on yourself? Turn into a dragon yourself? I'm curious how you guys would go about it.
It does not say "assuming you're a high-level wizard and have successfully found and infiltrated a Dragon's lair, having it in your line of sight and line of effect and rolling initiative".
Also, it should be noted that you posted claims, not a build. Incorrect claims for that matter. An 18th level caster with varisian tattoo (+1), spell perfection, improved spell penetration (+8), spell specialization (count as two levels higher), ends up with a +29 to caster level check to bypass spell penetration. I don't know where you got a "greater metamagic rod of ice" from, there is no such thing in the SRD? Note though that applying any metamagic will lower the DC as the limit of Heighten is that the spell cannot surpass a 9th level slot, and with magical lineage the level is already 3+3-1+4=9. Also note that the benefit of spell specialization is not a bonus and thus not affected by spell perfection.
But what is this metamagic rod of ice? Googling it yielded exactly one result, this thread.
And on saves, have I missed something? 17 base for a 7th level spell, +12 for cha, +4 for GSF = DC 33 save.
Furthermore, the claim that you can kill it and it's only chance is the suprise round, assumes that the dragon is completely naked and has had no chance to put up simple prebuffs. Even the dragon listed in the book - and that's a pretty stupidly built dragon, and spending even a minor fraction of his cash on retraining would improve his potential by a vast amount - even that dragon will presumably have up at least Protection from Energy (Cold) (through a limited wish) and Resist Energy (Cold), Fire Shield (Chill) (because a dragon isn't stupid and realizes anyone trying to attack it will likely use cold attacks) as well as having basic gear like a cloak of protection +4 and a belt of physical perfection +2, vastly increasing it's survivability.
Between the 35% chance to make the save for no damage, half damage for chill shield, the 120 points of cold damage shield, and lastly the 30 cold resistance you're not that likely to even hurt the dragon with your measly ~10d6+10 first fireball that you somehow managed to get to do cold damage (is that the metamagic rod of ice? where is it from?)
Part of the problem, for the Wyrm, is it's a Dazing Spell and while I agree it's a good bit less a sure thing than presented the Wyrm does need a significant and reliable bonus to Reflex to avoid taking damage and getting Dazed and once Dazed he's in trouble if he's truly as solo as our sorcerer (especially if his Dex score is going south at the same time):
Quote:
Dazing Spell (Metamagic)
You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.
Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell. A dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level. Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.
I think it's a fairly safe bet that our caster can hit the Wyrm twice with something Dazing in each round (at least the first 3) if desired. The odds get rapidly stacked against our Wyrm unless his bonus to Reflex is into the double digits (and can stay there) to add to a base of around +17 if our caster pursues this tactic.
I'm assuming the Metamagic Rod of Ice = Metamagic Rod, Elemental (cold)
item description:
Metamagic, Elemental
Aura strong (no school); CL 17th
Slot none; Price 3,000 gp (lesser), 11,000 gp (normal), 24,500 gp (greater); Weight 5 lbs.
Description
Each elemental metamagic rod is built with the power to control and transform a specific energy type (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that deal damage of the rod's energy type instead of the spell's normal damage type, as though using the Elemental Spell feat. For example, an elemental metamagic rod (cold) always makes spells deal cold damage.
Construction
Requirements Craft Rod, Elemental Spell; Cost 1,500 gp (lesser), 5,500 gp (normal), 12,250 gp (greater)
I might even be tempted to hit our dragon with something not "cold" or preferable untyped/not elemental to bypass presumed protections just to get him Dazed. Darn few ways to 'cure' the Dazed condition AFAIK, particularly ones available to an arcane caster (and the list gets really short if you take using Limited Wish or Wish off the table to get access to non-wizard/sorcerer solutions). Unless (or until?) personalized by the GM red dragons don't have access to UMD.
All four of those feats double with spell perfection (fireball) making it
18 + 1 + (1+2+2+2)x2 = +33 to overcome spell resistance.
Now the spell DC:
magical lineage (fireball) -1 metamagic cost
Fireball + Dazing Metamagic + Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (cold)
Relevant Feats etc: 5th level spell slot, 3rd level spell
Charisma 34 (19+6(item) +4(levels) +5(tome)) +12 DC
Spell focus evocation and greater (+2 DC doubled from spell perfection)
Spell perfection: free metamagic not exceeding 9th level -> Heighten to 9th level for free +9DC
So thats DC 10 + 12 + 4 + 9 = DC 35.
In summary, thats a DC 35 with +33 vs SR cold spell out of a 5th level slot.
if that fails, switch to a Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (acid) and quicken the same spell out of a 9th level slot.
In fact, cast the quickened spell first and assess whether the dragon has defenses up before following up. Drop a time stop as the standard action cast if so and reassess.
If our dragon has a belt of dex +6 and a cloak of resist +5, it gets a reflex save of (oh are we doing ancient dragon? I was looking at the great wyrm from the srd) +21. It needs to roll a 14 or better now.
If its an ancient dragon, then triple treasure at standard progression for CR 19 is 159,000. Those two items have eaten up 61,000 so far.
My build in more detail:
human tattooed sorcerer (draconic[brass])
str 7
dex 14 +6 belt = 20
con 14 +6 belt = 20
int 13
wis 8 +6 headband = 14
cha 19 +6 headband +5 tome +4 levels = 34
items so far (incomplete)
belt of physical might +6
headband of mental prowess +6
orange prism ioun stone
robes of arcane heritage
Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (cold)
Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (acid)
Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (electricity)
+1 cestus of dueling
several scrolls of time stop
spells(incomplete)
9th mage's disjunction
8th polar ray, more
7th
6th cold ice strike, more
5th
4th dragon breath, calcific touch, more
3rd fireball, more
2nd
1st
Even with only 1500 gp of treasure, any ancient+ dragon worth its salt should have a contingency (some form of escape) against either targeted spells or debilitating effects (or both; it doesn't cost more than a few spell slots every few weeks, after all).
So: with nothing more than 1500 gp of treasure (a sculpture of itself), two spells known (contingency and the escape), and two-to-four spell slots every couple of weeks, the dragon should be protected against many such surprise shenanigans.
Well, you really, really need to either a) kill it in one turn, or b) hide yourself really really really well, because if the dragon knows where you are at the start of its turn you're pretty dead. Note of course that elder dragons know Dispel Magic and See Invisibility, and have blindsense 60 ft and possibly even Discern Location as a SLA.
So how do you incapacitate/kill a Great Wyrm red dragon in one round? Keep in mind its got SR 33, immunity to fire, paralysis, and sleep,
saves of fort +25 will +24 reflex +14, and 449 hp. In fact, there's only two numbers in its stat block that's less than 10: its Dex of 6 and Touch AC of 0. So any touch attack is an auto-hit except on a 1.
So that's the weak point: Dexterity. A creature with 0 dexterity is incapable of moving, which means no spells with somatic components. That still leaves an extremely dangerous dragon with spells like Greater Shout and breath weapons, but it should be easy enough to handle after that.
Here are spells that might help (remember Exhaustion gives -6 to dex):
8th: Polar Ray
7th: Waves of Exhaustion
4th: Calcific Touch
3rd: Ray of Exhaustion
As YIDM suggested, one Maximized, Empowered Calcific Touch should do it... as long as you can overcome the dragon's SR. An Elf with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration gets a +6, and if you prepare a Piercing Maximized Empowered Calcific Touch, you'll get another +5, which should give you good odds.
Of course, keep in mind that dragons know Contingency, and could very easily have a Contingency to Teleport somewhere if they are disabled/KOd. In which case you better finish it off quick, or leave the material plane and don't come back.
No, but neither do the caster's spells. I would advise against a solo spellcaster attempting to employ an antimagic field while approaching a dragon :)
No, but neither do the caster's spells. I would advise against a solo spellcaster attempting to employ an antimagic field while approaching a dragon :)
I was under the impression that the statement was made about a dragon making an anti-magic field, and then if he gets in trouble, his contingency spell would kick in.
The post you quoted didn't mention an antimagic field, so it was a bit difficult to know what you were referring to :)
An antimagic field isn't really a great spell for very large creatures, unless you rule that emanations centered on you always extend outwards from every part of your space (which would make sense, at least as a researched version of such spells).
Anyway, if you have both AMF and contingencies, the contingencies would kick in only if the AMF is removed.
Personally, Experimental SpellCaster Sorcerer, Time Stop, Maximized Empowered Calcific Touch based on reflex, Dimensional Anchor, Cloud Kill based off Reflex, Walls of Force to keep the Cloud Kill around dragon.
I may be wrong, but I think antimagic field is a 10 ft radius emination centered on a square intersection occupied by the caster. I think a gargantuan creature has its corners poke out of the field.
@TheSideKick - 1) Annoyed by his previous attempts to use AMF (getting frostbitten on unprotected limbs and eartips in the process) our Wyrm has picked up Widen, his AMF is now a 20ft radius.
2) What's your Tetori's CMB? And how do either of you see or detect him in the thick haze of smoke in the lair or otherwise deal with concealment issues?
Widened Anti Magic Sphere is a level 9 spell. The ancient red dragon only gets to cast level 7 spells. It *might* have a rod but they are expensive and I cannot actually find a widen rod listed anywhere.
That ultimately is why the dragon is likely to lose. People coming at it will have 2 spell levels over what it is capable of achieving. People harp on about the defences in its lair but they need to come from somewhere and be paid for with something, regardless of how long the dragon has been around for.
On the sorcerer build I believe the duelling property only applies while you are wielding the weapon, i.e. actually attacking with it, in the same way as the Defending property was nerfed.
A better option if going the Dazing route is Ball Lightning. You force multiple saves and it continues to have to make them every round until it is dead.
Of course that assumes you can actually find it and avoid whatever defences it has managed to establish.
Personally I think you are better off brining along a Cleric friend to repeatedly Earthquake the area its lair is in and force it to come outside to engage you.
Even with only 1500 gp of treasure, any ancient+ dragon worth its salt should have a contingency (some form of escape) against either targeted spells or debilitating effects (or both; it doesn't cost more than a few spell slots every few weeks, after all).
So: with nothing more than 1500 gp of treasure (a sculpture of itself), two spells known (contingency and the escape), and two-to-four spell slots every couple of weeks, the dragon should be protected against many such surprise shenanigans.
The most it can attach to a contingency is a level 5 spell and then it has to be one it knows. The Bestiary dragon does have teleport so could contingency away but unfortunately at this level people tend to have access to stuff like Discern Location and their own Teleport spells so wherever it ends up it can expect a visit very soon thereafter.
That could actually serve as an interesting possible trap if it sets up its contingency location with a bunch of minions and allies and traps expecting enemies to come teleporting into the midst of it all in hot pursuit.
Use Gate to summon a mythic balor or pit fiend(20hd,25cr), and command it to kill the dragon and bring to you its heart, then Quickened Teleport to get away and wait. 10000gp is nothing compared to a the hoard of an wyrm dragon.
@TheSideKick - 1) Annoyed by his previous attempts to use AMF (getting frostbitten on unprotected limbs and eartips in the process) our Wyrm has picked up Widen, his AMF is now a 20ft radius.
2) What's your Tetori's CMB? And how do either of you see or detect him in the thick haze of smoke in the lair or otherwise deal with concealment issues?
Widened Anti Magic Sphere is a level 9 spell. The ancient red dragon only gets to cast level 7 spells. It *might* have a rod but they are expensive and I cannot actually find a widen rod listed anywhere.
That ultimately is why the dragon is likely to lose. People coming at it will have 2 spell levels over what it is capable of achieving. People harp on about the defences in its lair but they need to come from somewhere and be paid for with something, regardless of how long the dragon has been around for.
Most folks here have been asuming we are talking about a red great wyrm.
Discern Location has come up a few times so I'm going to point out this makes a really lousy "follow the teleporter" spell if time is of importance as it has a 10 minute casting time. That's more than enough time for the dragon to heal, rebuff, grab some nifty and relevant items cached in reserve and come back to "say hello" again before the caster is even finished casting Discern. And there's always the potential the Wyrm has used Mind Blank, either already as prebuff, recast it (if it got Disjoined or Dispelled) or used a scroll shortly after arriving at his rally point.
As Cap Darling has pointed out most of us are assuming a bit more than the Ancient Red of the Bestiary. The OP was somewhat vague on the subject. In any case while we (the posters in thread) need to know what the CR is, type and age of dragon, spell and feats known etc. for the purposes of discussion I think it's safe to say the wizard/player is not going to be privy to that information as a general rule. If the GM were myself (and more than a few of the other posters as well I suspect) it's likely the stats will have been tweaked. As far as the character knows it might an Ancient or it might be a Great Wyrm until they somehow learn otherwise.
All four of those feats double with spell perfection (fireball) making it
18 + 1 + (1+2+2+2)x2 = +33 to overcome spell resistance.
Spell specialization does not provide a bonus; it is not doubled by Spell Perfection. It is not +2 caster level, it's "Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell."
So it's 18+2+1+(1+2+2)*2=31.
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Spell perfection: free metamagic not exceeding 9th level -> Heighten to 9th level for free +9DC
So thats DC 10 + 12 + 4 + 9 = DC 35.
Sorry, no can do. A Dazing Elemental (Cold) Fireball with magical lineage would take up a 6th level slot, so you could at most heighten it to 6th level for a total slot level of 9th (as limited by spell perfection)
So it's 10+6(level)+12(cha)+4(gsf)=32, vs a saving bonus of +19 or so (+14 naked +1 belt of physical perfection +4 cloak of resistance).
Also note that being able to heighten spell with spell perfection is a very, very gray area of the rules; spell perfection allows a metamagic "without changing the level", the only thing heighten does is change level; it's very valid to read this spell as them not working together, and in line with explicit intent (as Jason Buhlman has stated); being able to apply it is a fringe interpretation of the rules and one that goes against the developers intent.
However, one could as easily just have the Dazing part be free and end up with the same result; heighten to 6th, turn to cold, apply dazing.
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if that fails, switch to a Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (acid) and quicken the same spell out of a 9th level slot.
Now we're entering shroeder territory - you stated you fired two of them, and when I showed you that wouldn't work that well you start ret-conning your actions. And if you start retconning then I can too by stating that well it has protection from acid on it too and we can continue blathering in a pointless way.
It's fine to make an example tactic and have it not work, but owe up to it; you spent the first round putting down the ice shield maybe 40 points or so if you passed through the saves and SR (which are not guarantees).
But I assume this means that a metamagic rod of elemental acid is what you have in your gloves of storing?
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If our dragon has a belt of dex +6 and a cloak of resist +5, it gets a reflex save of (oh are we doing ancient dragon? I was looking at the great wyrm from the srd) +21. It needs to roll a 14 or better now.
I was looking at the great wyrm too, and stated a belt of perfection +2 and a cloak of resistance +4, eating up 32k of however much it has. I'd say likely things it would have spent cash on include a few metamagic rod, a bunch of retrainings of it's feats (because right now they are kinda crappy picks) and a few defensive items, most notably a ring of freedom of movement.
Also, you have not stated how you see the dragon through the thick smoke. Note that darkvision, true sight and similar methods do not work. I'd say the most likely way to see the dragon is to somehow get access to a red dragon yourself and communicating with it.
And for this discussion it matters only a small bit whether the our Wyrm needs a 14+, 11+ or 8+ ... having to roll even 8+ 4 or more times is not something I want to do if I'm the Wyrm facing getting Dazed by the spell the first time I miss that save. Even if I have a Contingency will that delay the inevitable long enough (i.e. woot I'm not Dazed, next save! drat) for me to get that pesky wizard. Same more or less holds true vs Calcific Touch, i.e. use a Contingency to be rid of the effect does not prevent the caster from simply starting over again and slapping the dragon upside his nose again. It's a losing battle.
Ilja wrote:
Also, you have not stated how you see the dragon through the thick smoke. Note that darkvision, true sight and similar methods do not work. I'd say the most likely way to see the dragon is to somehow get access to a red dragon yourself and communicating with it.
Even using Shapechange or Form of the Dragon does not, near as I can tell, enable you to use their "Smoke Vision (Ex)" ability. The dragon merely needs to keep moving to make things fairly difficult to target his area much less himself specifically. FWIW Eversmoking Bottles are cheap (5400gp) if for some reason the area isn't smokey enough to make the dragon's foes weep.
3) Perform surgery on a cow, placing the jar inside its stomach (gently).
4) Use a healing spell of some sort to prevent any scars from forming on the cow. A Negate Aroma spell on the jar (and its contents) might not go amiss either. Hire these done if you don't have Use Magic Device.
5) Present the cow to the dragon. Maybe it's a housewarming gift, or a please-eat-this-cow-instead-of-me offering. Better yet, have a minion present the cow while you stay safely at home. Preferably a minion who doesn't know about the green slime, and therefore can't give it away. Those with more devious minds might come up with ways to ensure the dragon gets the cow without actively appearing to present the cow to it.
The key is getting a glass jar strong enough to withstand being in a cow's stomach, but weak enough that it will shatter when the dragon eats the cow. The cow's flesh should give the green slime enough to eat that the dragon will have long enough to swallow it even if the jar breaks during chewing.
Once it's inside the stomach, the dragon can no longer bring its breath weapon to bear. The green slime will consume it from the inside out, burning through its Constitution in just a few rounds. Sadly the dragonhide is not likely to be usable afterwards.
If presenting the Trojan Cow yourself, I recommend having Ethereal Jaunt prepped so you can take a nice safe stroll in another dimension while the dragon is thrashing in agony. Also, a teleport spell would be a good thing to have prepped in case something goes badly wrong. Oh, and a few fireballs for cleaning up the slime afterwards.
Spell specialization does not provide a bonus; it is not doubled by Spell Perfection. It is not +2 caster level, it's "Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell."
So it's 18+2+1+(1+2+2)*2=31.
I have to agree with Ilja here... going by the above wording Spell Specialization does not help overcome SR, since that is not an effect of the spell at all; it is a function of your casting ability and which spell you use is irrelevant to SR (for example, spell level has no effect on SR). Mind you, with the feats you have you still shouldn't be too bad off and will beat SR most of the time anyway. A +31 is still pretty awesome.
Ilja wrote:
Sorry, no can do. A Dazing Elemental (Cold) Fireball with magical lineage would take up a 6th level slot, so you could at most heighten it to 6th level for a total slot level of 9th (as limited by spell perfection)
So it's 10+6(level)+12(cha)+4(gsf)=32, vs a saving bonus of +19 or so (+14 naked +1 belt of physical perfection +4 cloak of resistance).
Also note that being able to heighten spell with spell perfection is a very, very gray area of the rules; ...
However, one could as easily just have the Dazing part be free and end up with the same result; heighten to 6th, turn to cold, apply dazing.
Yeah this works... since heighten and dazing would both be +3 level here you don't lose anything; it works the same way.
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if that fails, switch to a Greater Metamagic Rod, Elemental (acid) and quicken the same spell out of a 9th level slot.
Now we're entering shroeder territory - you stated you fired two of them, and when I showed you that wouldn't work that well you start ret-conning your actions....
If you have multiple elemental spell rods/feats it does make sense to quicken one element and then fire another element with the regular shot, that way you have two chances of getting through. However the quickened one won't be heightened, presumably.
Ilja wrote:
But I assume this means that a metamagic rod of elemental acid is what you have in your gloves of storing?
That would make sense. No reason not to.
Ilja wrote:
If our dragon has a belt of dex +6 and a cloak of resist +5, it gets a reflex save of (oh are we doing ancient dragon? I was looking at the great wyrm from the srd) +21. It needs to roll a 14 or better now.
I was looking at the great wyrm too, and stated a belt of perfection +2 and a cloak of resistance +4, eating up 32k of however much it has. I'd say likely things it would have spent cash on include a few metamagic rod, a bunch of retrainings of it's feats (because right now they are kinda crappy picks) and a few defensive items, most notably a ring of freedom of movement.
Lightning Reflexes would be a decent feat, under the circumstances.
Are there any items that protect against being stunned or dazed in Pathfinder? There were in 3.5. Obviously those are of great value generally. Being a BBEG ought to mean protecting yourself from a save-or-die.
Ilja wrote:
Also, you have not stated how you see the dragon through the thick smoke. Note that darkvision, true sight and similar methods do not work. I'd say the most likely way to see the dragon is to somehow get access to a red dragon yourself and communicating with it.
The Echolocation spell? Probably cast on a familiar rather than yourself, since the range is pretty short (only 40 feet). Or quicken a gust of wind instead of a fireball?
3) Perform surgery on a cow, placing the jar inside its stomach (gently).
4) Use a healing spell of some sort to prevent any scars from forming on the cow. A Negate Aroma spell on the jar (and its contents) might not go amiss either. Hire these done if you don't have Use Magic Device.
5) Present the cow to the dragon. Maybe it's a housewarming gift, or a please-eat-this-cow-instead-of-me offering. Better yet, have a minion present the cow while you stay safely at home. Preferably a minion who doesn't know about the green slime, and therefore can't give it away. Those with more devious minds might come up with ways to ensure the dragon gets the cow without actively appearing to present the cow to it.
The key is getting a glass jar strong enough to withstand being in a cow's stomach, but weak enough that it will shatter when the dragon eats the cow. The cow's flesh should give the green slime enough to eat that the dragon will have long enough to swallow it even if the jar breaks during chewing.
Once it's inside the stomach, the dragon can no longer bring its breath weapon to bear. The green slime will consume it from the inside out, burning through its Constitution in just a few rounds. Sadly the dragonhide is not likely to be usable afterwards.
If presenting the Trojan Cow yourself, I recommend having Ethereal Jaunt prepped so you can take a nice safe stroll in another dimension while the dragon is thrashing in agony. Also, a teleport spell would be a good thing to have prepped in case something goes badly wrong. Oh, and a few fireballs for cleaning up the slime afterwards.
Oh, wow, that's really clever! I bet it's completely foolproof, too--- oh, wait. Look at that.
Nice but note that fire does kill it ... its really hot in his lair, nevermind his firebreathing mouth. While obviously up to the GM I'd think it likely the dragon destroys the green slime within a round and spares himself quite a bit of discomfort. He might even do it without quite realizing what tasted so odd and strangely crunchy about the cow.
And you'll probably need some sort of magical control over the cow. Pretty sure the cow will be less than thrilled to be anywhere near the DRAAAAGONNNNN!!!
Even if swallowed I'm not sure its all that cool inside the dragon so as to keep the slime from getting toasted. Props for outside the box though.
And then there's Sense Motive (good thing you sent an unwitting accomplice) and the fact I'd (in the role of dragon) would be real slow to eat gifts from strangers (or accept gifts in general) without taking some sort of precautions. Obviously tribute of the appropriate sort would be accepted *wink*.
That still allows for SR and a save. And costs 25,000gp. There are way more efficient ways to take care of a dragon.
YIDM wrote:
maximized empowered calcific touch and haste with multiple touch attacks.
0 Dex dragon = coup de grace.
YIDM
Calific Touch explicitly only lets you make one touch/round. It's also affected by SR, which any dragon worth fighting will have. It's also a touch spell, so you're provoking an attack. Sure, you could put up a bunch of defensive spells to negate that, but you could use that time to just kill the dragon instead.
Kayerloth: youre not getting hit four times though, only two in the first round and then the dragon gets to act which changes things. And note that it has 120 poits to absorb first and then resists - if the spell does not deal damage it doesnt daze. The spell deals 45*1.5*0.5=37.5 damage on average on a failed save, and considering saves and SR about 2/3 would go through, so even blasting over and over again were looking at 5+ spells to even get through PfE.
Peet: bfobar did state that he cast two cold fireballs though.
Ecolocation makes sense, gust of wind may work but if you poibt in the wrong direction youve revealed your general area without getting any results (you can use a lesser rod of quicken and thus keep slots and move about, but those have limits and take a move action to draw preventing you from using cold fireball the same round)
...I was looking at the great wyrm too, and stated a belt of perfection +2 and a cloak of resistance +4, eating up 32k of however much it has. I'd say likely things it would have spent cash on include a few metamagic rod, a bunch of retrainings of it's feats (because right now they are kinda crappy picks) and a few defensive items, most notably a ring of freedom of movement...
Two things. I dont think spending the treasure on retraining is really RAI or RAW as the treasure is there for the PCs to loot. But the feats in the book can be changed if the GM want. Exept if we play kill the dragon in the book of cause.
And the other thing. Does a dragon in your game really fly around with a cloak and a belt? I know some of them did in Forgotten realms but i must say it seems lame to me. And completely out of character.
Cap Darling: i agree that retraining for the treasure is iffy, but its kind of unfair to pit a core dragon published before all the APG and ultimate books vs someone who has access to everythig.
But i have no issues with a dragon with a cloak and belt. If the player gets to optimize the dragon has to be able to too.
But then, most dragons are not great wyrms but rather a lot younger and less wealthy.
Kayerloth: youre not getting hit four times though, only two in the first round and then the dragon gets to act which changes things. And note that it has 120 poits to absorb first and then resists - if the spell does not deal damage it doesnt daze. The spell deals 45*1.5*0.5=37.5 damage on average on a failed save, and considering saves and SR about 2/3 would go through, so even blasting over and over again were looking at 5+ spells to even get through PfE.
Peet: bfobar did state that he cast two cold fireballs though.
Ecolocation makes sense, gust of wind may work but if you poibt in the wrong direction youve revealed your general area without getting any results (you can use a lesser rod of quicken and thus keep slots and move about, but those have limits and take a move action to draw preventing you from using cold fireball the same round)
Yeah I get that Ilja, but if even 1 point of damage is taken when the Reflex is failed the dragon is dazed. And yes I realize our sorcerer is only getting 2 spells (at most) a round off at the dragon. But just like I think the sorcerer has his work cut out to kill the dragon right off I think the dragon likely has his work cut out to kill any halfway prepared and decently player arcanist in 1 round or less ... hence needing to save vs more than 2 saves. PfE spells last 10min/lvl he is burning an awful lot of slots to provide himself all the time protection from 4 different potential elements so I doubt he will. Best move for our hypothetical wizard is perhaps not a cold attack per se but keep cycling thru till one hurts. Perhaps start with an empowered maxed and intensified spell to burn that PfE right off. Basically I think relying on PfE for more than 1 to 2 spells is pushing the Wyrms luck if he's facing a 'blaster' build of some sort.
@Mechalibur - If our caster is using Calcific Touch or other melee touch spells he's got some way of neutering or avoiding at least 1 AoO a round. Grace, Spring Attack, Moment of Prescience to AC, Reach, Spectral Hand. If not then likely this is not how this particular caster would go about it.
Echolocation is intriguing ... but only a 40ft radius. Considering the dragon is going to be selecting the battlefield I'm betting 40ft is going to fall well short of the distance at which he can see and will likely engage his foes unfortunately. I get this vision of me standing in a thick fog in the middle of the tarmac while the Apache Gunship with thermal sights circles about lining me up for its rockets and cannon.
The post you quoted didn't mention an antimagic field, so it was a bit difficult to know what you were referring to :)
An antimagic field isn't really a great spell for very large creatures, unless you rule that emanations centered on you always extend outwards from every part of your space (which would make sense, at least as a researched version of such spells).
Anyway, if you have both AMF and contingencies, the contingencies would kick in only if the AMF is removed.
AMF isn't bad. A Colossal Creature takes up a 30'x30' area. It can SQUEEZE into a 15' by 15' area. Easily enough room for a 10' radius. -4 AC/Attack penalty and each square you move counts as 2, but that's more than sufficient to grapple a caster and kill him. Nothing stops squeezing while flying either.
Cap. Darling wrote:
Ilja wrote:
...I was looking at the great wyrm too, and stated a belt of perfection +2 and a cloak of resistance +4, eating up 32k of however much it has. I'd say likely things it would have spent cash on include a few metamagic rod, a bunch of retrainings of it's feats (because right now they are kinda crappy picks) and a few defensive items, most notably a ring of freedom of movement...
Two things. I dont think spending the treasure on retraining is really RAI or RAW as the treasure is there for the PCs to loot. But the feats in the book can be changed if the GM want. Exept if we play kill the dragon in the book of cause.
And the other thing. Does a dragon in your game really fly around with a cloak and a belt? I know some of them did in Forgotten realms but i must say it seems lame to me. And completely out of character.
Well, you can reflavor the magic items so they don't look like a cloak and belt. Seems sensible enough.
Though, honestly, I think a method to protect against Ability Damage, given their big weakness to dex draining, would be pretty important to a Dragon. There are quite a few ways to go about this.
Agreed though that retraining isn't needed. The dragon would take different feats to begin with.
