I've been wanting to make a rule few changes in order to make different styles of weapon usage more viable, since as it stands right now, if you don't want to gimp yourself you have to go either Weapon and shield, two-handed or archery (with a composite bow).
Crossbows are basically useless and basically only used by casters who don't have enough spells per day yet to spend every round in combat casting spells. Using a single one-handed weapon doesn't make any sense because you both get less armor than when also having a shield and less damage potential than when wielding a two-handed weapon. Or even just wielding your one-handed weapon two-handed. And don't get me started on how you burn feat after feat on Two-weapon fighting only to stay just a few steps behind a two-handed fighter who didn't have to spend any feats on it at all.
So here are some changes i would suggest to give some alternate styles a bit more light without dedicating an entire class or archetype to them.
Two-Weapon Fighting
- When making a standard attack while fighting with two weapons you may make one attack with each weapon.
- Fighting with two weapons causes a -4 penalty to all your attacks. Your off-hand incurs an additional -4. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalty decreases by 2 (making it -2/-6).
- The two-weapon fighting feat additionally decreases the penalty for fighting with two weapons by 2 and removes the extra penalty to your off-hand (making it -2/-2 or +0/+0 with a light off-hand weapon). A character with this feat automatically gains the benefits of improved and greater two-weapon fighting when fulfilling the respective BAB requirements, but does not have to fulfill the dexterity requirement. Consequentially the Improved and Greater TWF feats are no longer feat choices.
One-Handed fighting
- When fighting with a one-handed or light weapon in one hand and not using a shield or using the off-hand for anything other than holding a small item (up to 5 pounds), you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC (representing the superior balance from having one hand free to adjust and the smaller frame you present because of being able to turn your side to the opponent at all times)
- If you have weapon finesse you may apply it to any one-handed weapon as long as you use it as described above.
Ranged weapons
- Two-handed crossbows and two-handed firearms gain half-again as much extra damage from the deadly aim feat.
- Repeating- and hand crossbows are martial weapons, not exotic.
- Non-siege weapon firearms are martial weapons, not exotic.
- If a rogue is proficient with firearms they don't need the firearm training talent to gain the grit talent. (the same goes for all other classes that can gain amateur unslinger as a bonus feat but have another class feature that grants firearm proficiency as a prerequisite)
- Slings are martial weapons rather than simple, deal 1d8 damage (medium), have a critical multiplier of 20 /x3 and a range of 120 ft.
That's the rough version of it. I know that the changes to two-weapon fighting would do a lot to favor rogues who with the normal rules are among the few things that actually benefit from two-weapon fighting, but since the general consensus is that rogues suck, i don't think that's a terrible impact.
Very interesting. Hopefully someone with more system mastery that myself will do the math.
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So just a bit of insight. There is a concept called "Ivory Tower Design". The idea is that a built in "more effective" route (on a per case basis) is rewarded. So in a situation where you want defense, a shield (and whatever weapon you wield in your offhand) should theoretically be optimal for defense (excluding considerations other then weapons). Some people complain that ivory tower design (when heavily implemented) there are totally useless options and one "win button". The idea of flattening differences and making things more acceptable is equally dangerous. You fall into the issue of "everything is effectively the same". (Pardon the rant, I think I'm getting to a point :-D )
I assume your goal with this is to make two-weapon and crossbow more accessible then they currently are? Not to equalize style choices? If so, that is a good idea. I really like seeing two weapon fighting, but it ends up being a huge feat sink and a lot of character's don't get it. And after all that- it's not overpoweringly effective (again, in a world where non-weapon choice options were not in effect).
Sorry for the rant. Short version: I like the idea of seeing two-weapon fighting more accessible.
I don't want to make anything the same as anything else of course but i want each weapon or style to have some sort of benefit over the others.
I want players to be able to use different weapons and styles without having to be straight down worse than if they chose a different style.
A one-handed fighter would have more options with finesse and have the benefit of more precision and ability to dodge, but give up the damage potential of two-handed and the flat-footed AC and option to bash that a weapon-and-shield wielder has.
A two-weapon fighter would have about the same damage potential as a two-handed fighter and gain the ability to portion their damage and possibly distribute it between enemies, but also has the drawbacks of having to spend at least one feat and that their damage is more susceptible to DR.
Crossbows and two-handed guns would have just slightly more damage coming from deadly aim, which still doesn't offset their weaknesses compared to a bow, particularly a composite bow, but at least gives some incentive to use them.
As for the sling, I just wanted to make it a little bit more like slings actually were: precise even at long ranges and deadly but hard to learn to use properly.
I like this!
there could be a feat chain to steadily increase the bonus granted by one-handed fighting, used to qualify for the Duelist class, maybe?
That would certainly be possible.
Hrm.
I haven't run any math (and won't be doing so right now, it's sleepy time), but it seems as though Two-Weapon Fighting with this system is basically the best melee thing possible.
For the low, low price of Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice, you receive:
-Two attacks as a Standard action
-Double Str to damage (as compared to a 2H weapon's 1.5)
-More attacks overall (at no greater to-hit penalty than iteratives)
At the cost of:
-Having to enchant two weapons
-Uhhhh...
I could be wrong, but it seems a mite powerful.
Hrm.
I haven't run any math (and won't be doing so right now, it's sleepy time), but it seems as though Two-Weapon Fighting with this system is basically the best melee thing possible.
For the low, low price of Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice, you receive:
-Two attacks as a Standard action
-Double Str to damage (as compared to a 2H weapon's 1.5)
-More attacks overall (at no greater to-hit penalty than iteratives)At the cost of:
-Having to enchant two weapons
-Uhhhh...I could be wrong, but it seems a mite powerful.
Having yur damage divided between more attacks you also are more susceptible to DR. A greatsword with Str 14 would have 2d6+3-5 damage against DR 5/whatever. A longsword and a shortsword have 1d8+1d6+3-10 effectively. Also you don't get the third iterative at BAB +16, which i am considering to change as well.
And, well, two feats. As well as Dex 15 as an entry fee.
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I have been playing with a Rogue with your TWF variant (the part that with a Standard action you may attack with your both hands, but still have to use a Full-Attack for any extra attacks) for several months in the Kingmaker AP. It has worked really well and i'm able to do the same damage as my fellow Fighter/Barbarian buddies (sometimes even a little bit more, with luck on the SA dices) but still i have to manage to flank or get the enemy denied it's DEX Bonus, so it takes some work.
We also have the house-rule that if you take Two Weapon Fighting feat, you also get it's matching Two Weapon Defense feat (Improved Two Weapon Fighting = Improved Two Weapon Defense from 3.5 and so on).
Regards
Then it actually does a good thing. Good to hear. I always felt rogue types should at least be able to keep up with fighters and barbarians in damage. And rom my experience they don't. In my game where I havent implimented the above rule yet, the ninja who even has invisible blade, double slice and two agile weapons doesnt do as much damage on his full attack, as the barbarian on his first attack. Which partly may be due to house rules of mine but certainly not completely. (i have house ruled full attacks to be standard actions, and to keep vital strike relevant i ruled it to be applicable to your highest BAB attack with a -2 penalty to attack, buteven that is "only" 9 out of his roughly 40 to 50 damage per attack.)
I wouldn't include Two-weapon defense, as that would definitely be too much, since unlike what you apparently do, i have already rolled improved and greater TWF into TWF. And it would in turn make shields obsolete.
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I don't think shields would be obsolete, they are unique in the way they have their own feats/enchantments (and are far more usefull at defense that a weapon). Plus, going into the TWF way still requires some feat-tax/score tax that balances this (DEX it's still a requisite on our table), it's a little less punishing and attractive combat style but definitely not free.
I liked your suggestions for one-handed fighting, perhaps the +1 to attack and dodge could increase as your BAB does? (+1 each 5 BAB?) to give a little bit more edge at higher levels?
I doubt Shields will be obsolete, if anything shields will be stronger since they're frequently used in TWFing.
I doubt Shields will be obsolete, if anything shields will be stronger since they're frequently used in TWFing.
Yes, but with the inclusion of TW Defense into TWF, you would just as easily get the same shield bonus but better attacks with an off-hand weapon instead of a shield.
You can still enchant them, to get more, and have different effects than with off-hand weapons though so that's okay. But I think i still wouldn't include it into TWF in my variant simply because I feel it would become too good compared to Two-handed.
Let's assume equal feat investment.
A 6th level guy, 15 Str and 15 Dex, with two short swords takes TWF and DS. He attacks at +8/+8/+3/+3 for 1d6+2 each (range 12-32 if all hit, n/incl crits).
His friend tanks Dex to 10 and goes for an 18 Str instead, and takes Power Attack and Weapon Focus with his greatsword. He attacks at +9/+4 for 2d6+12 (range 28-48 if all hit, n/incl crits).
Granted, the first guy will have a better AC -- unless the second guy realizes that he doesn't need to worry anout max Dex to AC and wears heavy armor.
"Equal investment" doesn't show the whole picture here though.
The TWFing guy can snag Power Attack too. Or a higher Str (after all, he only needs Dex 15 to get all the TWFing Feats...though I don't consider that one a bad change). I just wanna run this right quick. Assume the other guy grabs Furious Focus or summat.
So +8/+8/+3/+3 at 1d6+6 apiece at level 6 with your stats (range 28-48 if all hit, n/incl crits).
Welp. Okay then, nevermind.
I've gone over the damage numbers TWF vs TH many times and yeah that's where I arrived each time. TWF would be about equal to TH if you change it as above.
The TWFing guy can snag Power Attack too.
Wouldn't he be attacking at +6/+6/+1/+1, for 1d6+4 each -- because the attack penalties stack, and light weapons do minimal additional damage with Power Attack (1:1 instead of 2:1)?
I was under the impression that Double Slice removed the halved PA damage for the offhand as well as the Str damage...but I don't see that clause in there. I've been doing this wrong for a while, it seems.
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The one-handed fighting idea reminds me of a feat my group uses.
Dueling
Prerequisites: Dex 11, base attack bonus +1
You are especially skilled at fighting with a single weapon in your main hand.
Benefit: You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to attack rolls and +1 dodge bonus to AC when wielding a single melee weapon in your main hand and nothing in your off-hand. These bonuses improve to +2 when your base attack bonus reaches +8, and to +3 when your base attack bonus reaches +15.
We pretty much stole it from the KOTOR feat of the same name, but it's a nice bonus and it opens up an expansive homebrew feat chain for freehand types.
Hm. Maybe it'll be more useful here than it was in KOTOR...
That was a game that knew how to make TWFing the be all end all of combat, fo sho'.
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Hm. Maybe it'll be more useful here than it was in KOTOR...
That was a game that knew how to make TWFing the be all end all of combat, fo sho'.
Totally, TWFing was insane in KOTOR. My first run through was with a dual wielding sentinel (red and purple 'sabers), and in my second playthrough I wondered why my attacks suddenly sucked.
In PF though, there aren't a ton of ways to get flat bonuses to attack and AC through feats. Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, shield focus, greater shield focus and dodge are the only ones I think. And they all require you to pick a very specific weapon or use a shield. I've found that giving one-handers just a little gravy that eventually scales in the form of attack and AC works pretty well.
Edit: But our group has also nixed Weapon Finesse and removed it as a prerequisite for any feats that rely on it. Any light or finessable weapons can be optionally used with Dex. So it probably works for us better than RAW groups that have to deal with more feat taxes.
I would allow for TWF to auto upgrade to ITWF, and I would have feat that allowed you to apply the feats for any one weapon to the another weapon as long as you were using TWF.
Interesting idea. As in a fighter with a longsword and shortsword and weapon focus longsword would be able to apply the feat to both long and shortsword while dual-wielding them? I think it makes sense, although I dont think i would adapt it to my variant.
Interesting. A few questions:
Do your changes to TWF in any way affect the Monk and his Flurry of Blows?
Would you consider a feat that allowed using Spring Attack, Cleave, or Vital Strike with both weapons? For reference, the 3.5 Tempest PrC gained the ability to Spring Attack with two weapons at roughly BAB +11
Also for reference, the Tempest gained the ability to apply Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, and Improved Critical to both of her weapons if she had them with one. Roughly BAB +9
One-Handed Fighting is still a sad little duck, but your suggestion effectively folds in the Graceful Edge feat to all of combat for free, which is nice. I like the idea of the Dueling feat mentioned above, but it needs a damage boost to be competitive-ish compared to TWF or THF. In my own games I ruled that if you had Weapon Finesse and fought this way, you added your Dex bonus to damage. It certainly wasn't game-breaking.
Crossbows are pretty irksome for me. The game utterly fails to capture how deadly crossbows were. This was a weapon with so much stopping power that it could kill a knight in full plate armor with a single shot, and all you needed to do was point it and pull the trigger. In my opinion, crossbows should be much more deadly, much more expensive, and probably illegal as well.
That being said, I like the increased bonus from Deadly Aim
I also like the change of the sling to a martial weapon. Has anyone actually tried using a sling? They're ridiculous. Shepherds weren't proficient with slings because they were easy to use, they were proficient because they had enough time to practice and an abundance of rocks.
I partially agree with your change of firearms and hand/repeating crossbows to martial weapons. I wouldn't be sure how to put this across mechanically, but to my mind actually firing either of those weapons is about the easiest thing to do ever. It's reloading that requires actual skill.
Anyway, those are a few thoughts.