Well, if you read the OP, it helps the party HUGELY so much so that the OP here (and on many other threads) is complaining about how easy it is for the party to defeat encounters, as the monk can tank his way thru them.DrDeth wrote:
"It has superb saves, great defenses, and fantastic mobility."Which help the party overcome the enemy how, exactly? The monk's defences are good, almost as good as the paladin's, but that doesn't make him asset, it just stops him being a liability.
No, it's not really helping him defeat encounters it just stops the encounters defeating him, and is down to his being buffed to hell and back. As I pointed out now several times, ANY melee character would be as dangerous with that many buffs cast on them. The only difference being that rather than being near-invulnerable they would be destroying foes with one blow.
And, even if the Monk isn't the BEST at DPR, it certainly can dish out decent DPR.
Not compared to a serious full-BAB class it doesn't, especially as the ACs scale upwards. Zero hits = zero DPR.
Thus it isn't a case of " So not being able to do DPR.." it's a case of "Not being able to do the DPR of some other hyper- optimized no-defense- all offense, rocket tag builds".
No, can't do the DPR of any other melee class optimized to the same extent, actually. What makes the difference in the number crunching are the accuracy of the hits, the static bonuses, and the threat ranges.
I have seen those builds- the fall to a will save spell easily, where the Monk won't.
Actually, they didn't. In one thread where a monk was compared to a fighter vs a balor the question came up, and the numbers crunched out that the fighter was no more likely to fall to the balor's mind effecting abilities than the monk. Reason for this was the fighter killed the balor much faster than the monk, so it had less opportunities to make him fail a save. As the fighter had Improved Iron Will he was almost guaranteed to make the first save, and had good odds on the second, of which there was only a 50/50 chance the balor would live that long.
In another thread the monk was compared to a barbarian with Superstition...the barbarian actually had LESS chance of being dominated than the monk, again because he destroyed the enemy before they had many chances to make the attempt.
Or you could compare to the paladin, who CAN'T be dominated.
That's the thing, when compared to the defences of the other combat classes, the monk's lower HD and MADness effectively reduce his defences in ways that they do not suffer, and his longer exposure to the enemy means that he's usually got no advantage at all...
Or you could compare to the paladin, who CAN'T be dominated.
Err, you mean Charmed. He can be Dominated, just not Charmed. "Aura of Resolve (Su): At 8th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. " Unless you're talking 17th level? Which of course, we're not?
But I like this. If the Monk is being game breakingly good due to a solid build, good tactics, a great feat and Teamwork, it can't be the Monk (oh no!) it can't be the teamwork, it's the spellcasters. Because of course, "Monks are teh suxxor". riiiight.
Or you could compare to the paladin, who CAN'T be dominated.Err, you mean Charmed. He can be Dominated, just not Charmed. "Aura of Resolve (Su): At 8th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. " Unless you're talking 17th level? Which of course, we're not?
But I like this. If the Monk is being game breakingly good due to a solid build, good tactics, a great feat and Teamwork, it can't be the Monk (oh no!) it can't be the teamwork, it's the spellcasters. Because of course, "Monks are teh suxxor". riiiight.
Err...who said it can't be the Teamwork? Because that's pretty much the opposite of what he said.
The Monk is stalling people.
The casters are buffing people out the wazoo.
The other two guys are doing stuff (the Ranger probably dealing at least as much damage as the Monk at a higher attack bonus).
It's just the Monk is somehow being called out as broken because he has good "not die" powers and less than stellar "make other people die" powers, which makes him the interchangeable part here. A lot of things can do his job, or better.
Rynjin has it right with regard to the "Don't attack the monk!" sentiment. Obviously the GM should not decided to refuse to attack the monk until there are no other targets (one extreme). However, there's no reason why all five goblins need to charge the monk just because he's in front. Additionally, an intelligent creature will quickly realize if he's simply banging his head against an adamantine wall and decide to move on to easier targets. Now if you have a particularly resourceful enemy who has had an opportunity to actually learn about the party (which is pretty common in Kingmaker -- the AP the OP is running) then that villains minions might even have instructions prior to the fight based upon the knowledge of their master. Now conversely, a mindless zombie or ooze, etc. is generally going to flail at whatever is closest.
Now lets put it another way. The party runs into an encounter and there is one enemy that jumps out in front and starts flailing weakly at the party. The PCs immediately jump that monster, but are incapable of hitting him. The darn thing dodges, ducks, skips out of the way or even flat out cancels an attack, maybe even catches the ranger's arrow. Meanwhile, this critter's buddies and ripping the party to shreds with spells, arrows, and other attacks. What do you think most parties will do?
There's a reason after all that adventurers usually go through doors and windows rather than walls.
The problem here isn't the "OP MONK" it's your thinking that he's OP.
Whoa, buddy. Let the records show that I never said he was OP. I don't feel qualified to make that kind of statement, and even if I did I've seen WAY more terrifying character builds in Pathfinder. That's why I didn't jump in the "Crane Style is broken" discussion earlier. I leave that stuff to you guys xD
The purpose of this thread was for me to find methods of challenging this character without flattening the entire party with Fiendish Mythic Owlbears that attack for +17/+17/+17.
The monk has created some great memories, though. The third encounter in Kingmaker was a Dire Boar that one-shotted everyone in the party except the Cleric (who ran) and the monk (who deflected every attack indefinitely, until he could whittle down the poor creature). Dire Boar? More like Dire BORE.
10 Gunslingers with Improved init etc...get the drop ...shoot him to pieces...kill him...do not let his next character be a monk...or gunslinger for that matter.
High handed...maybe....but you are there to have fun as well as the players and if the game is getting stale because of the monk it may be time for a change
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10 Gunslingers with Improved init etc...get the drop ...shoot him to pieces...kill him...do not let his next character be a monk...or gunslinger for that matter.
High handed...maybe....but you are there to have fun as well as the players and if the game is getting stale because of the monk it may be time for a change
Now, see, THIS is a dick move.
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10 Gunslingers with Improved init etc...get the drop ...shoot him to pieces...kill him...do not let his next character be a monk...or gunslinger for that matter.
High handed...maybe....but you are there to have fun as well as the players and if the game is getting stale because of the monk it may be time for a change
If you ever find yourself in the position where something bothers you but the players seem to be having a good time you have three options:
A: Continue things the way they are, you remain unhappy and the players happy.
B: Change things so that everyone's happy.
C: Change things so that everyone's miserable.
The gunslinger encounter described above would be a prime example of option C.
I did not see it mentioned though I may have missed it. Another nice 1st level spell that might mess him up is ear-piercing scream. Max of 5d6 sonic and stun for one round with a fort save for half and no stun, no attack roll involved. Empower it and or use the SF Evo/Element focus sonic to up the dc it could be very a very nice counter to the issue. I have had a lot of luck with it on enemies as a pc in skulls and shackles.
Having play tested a 6th level Swashbuckler for over 12 hours, I can say that the Swashbuckler's Parry is NO WHERE NEAR as good as Crane Wing. Certainly a part of that is due to the fact that the Swashbuckler's Parry requires you to expend a limited resource (Panache) before knowing the attack roll's result, and then, if you hit, you can spend a second Panache point to make an attack against that enemy, but only if you have the Combat Reflexes feat. (Also, the Crane Style feats have a few prerequisites feats that not all classes get for free, where the Swashbuckler's Parry is an innate part of the class that requires no build investment to utilize.) The Swashbuckler's problems aside, it is still worth looking at Crane Style, Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte feats through the lenses of the play test Parry ability. And doing so certainly makes the Crane Style feats look to be even more powerful than they already are.
Or you could compare to the paladin, who CAN'T be dominated.Err, you mean Charmed. He can be Dominated, just not Charmed. "Aura of Resolve (Su): At 8th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. " Unless you're talking 17th level? Which of course, we're not?
My bad, but even then the paladin's Will save is probably as good as or better than the monk's, while his enemies die faster making him much less vulnerable.
But I like this. If the Monk is being game breakingly good due to a solid build, good tactics, a great feat and Teamwork, it can't be the Monk (oh no!) it can't be the teamwork, it's the spellcasters. Because of course, "Monks are teh suxxor". riiiight.
The fact that monks are mechanically weak has been proven many times, and even the developers have conceded this point.
As I have pointed out, if you substituted "monk" for any other combat class, the result would be similar with that many buffs; for example in my Kingmaker game buffing the party barbarian to that extent has lead to him hitting at +16/+9 for 3d6+21 19-20/x2 - and who cares what his AC is, the enemy is going to die before they get more than one attack anyway. The main difference here is that the monk is defensively very strong rather than offensively very strong, the result is similar.
Take away the buffs and what have we got? Well assuming mage armor, bull's strength, cat's grace, and enlarge, and the buffs are adding:
+5 to AC (+2 dex, +4 armor, -1 Size)
+3 to damage
+3 to hit
and damage for a weapon a size larger.
Take it away and what have you got? AC27 (which is 23 if the monk was using his ki to bump it, that's good but not awesome and he's only getting away with it because of the 15-minute adventuring day), 1d10+2 damage, and an attack bonus of all of +5. That's a decent AC but attacks a 1st level fighter could beat. Numbers do not lie, and they say that this isn't even a particularly well made monk, he's just getting buffed to heaven and back for fifteen minutes a day. Take away the buffs and you have a pretty sub-standard performance.
That's not to say that the teamwork is bad, because it's good. The problem is when you have to rely on other PCs for half your effectiveness, it shows how weak your core build must be.
The monk has created some great memories, though. The third encounter in Kingmaker was a Dire Boar that one-shotted everyone in the party except the Cleric (who ran) and the monk (who deflected every attack indefinitely, until he could whittle down the poor creature). Dire Boar? More like Dire BORE.
I had that encounter too. The boar attacked the party from behind, and it took two rounds for the barbarian to get to it and one round to kill it. I suppose at least in my case the fight was over much quicker...
Dabbler: Isn't the bonus to hit from the buffs only +2? He gets +2 from Bull's Strength, +1 from the Str increase from Enlarge, -1 from the size increase from Enlarge. Or am I missing something? Doesn't change your point, I'm just making sure I'm not missing a rule. :p
Edit to Add: Enlarge drops his AC by 2 due to the decrease in Dex, so Cat's Grace is pretty much a wash. However, he's also getting Owl's Wisdom so he's actually getting a +6 to AC (+2 Wis, +4 Armor, +2 Cat's, -2 Enlarge)
And one cranestyle monk that makes my job as GM quite challenging.
I have a cranestyle monk, so I know a little about them. They are good but not omnipotent.
1) Cranestyle monks can’t be the front of the party. If he loses initiative, he loses all of the AC except for his Wis bonus (and his crane style isn’t activated yet), so his AC will be quite low and he will be unable to deflect. He will get smushed. To negate that, he needs Uncanny Dodge, which isn’t a monk ability.
I think this is the biggest thing you are missing. To activate crane style, the monk needs to either do Total Defense (a standard action) or attack him defensively (a standard action). If he hasn’t done these things, he doesn’t get his high AC and he doesn’t get to deflect attacks. Your troll chieftain should charge and kick his ass if he gets initiative.
For the record, I think this is a design flaw for the monk class in general, monks should have Uncanny Dodge because they are front liners, not rogues. But that’s off topic.
2) After 1-2 missed/deflected attacks, your enemy doesn’t need to continue attacking him anymore than it makes sense to attack a tank. Enemies that know about the PCs will ignore him altogether.
3) Everyone fails their saves eventually.
4) Combat maneuvers also nail him as badly as everyone else. Monks are stuck with BAB in their CMD, so their defenses are only as good as a fighter’s (wisdom makes up for lost BAB). Try grappling and tripping, should work.
5) Keep in mind that everyone is boosting him (owl’s wisdom and Cat’s Grace), why would you expect him to suck when party resources are being used on him?
6) Being enlarged reduces his AC. His size reduces it by 1 and his Dex is lowered by 2, so he loses another AC, for a total of 2 AC. If he is a Dex monk, he also loses +1 to hit and +1 damage from the Dex loss.
7) Please consider how low his damage output is compared to high damage PCs or against opponents with DR. All he really has is his defenses and if you ignore him… he’s really quite useless. It doesn’t hurt to let him shine sometimes.
If it’s still a problem, consider nerfing the deflection powers of Crane Wing. Sometimes I think making it automatic made it too powerful, but I understand why it was implemented that way (for speed of combat). I don’t have a good suggestion for a fix, but if you can find something where it works maybe 50% of the time, I would suggest that.
The only thing I would think to add to this conversation is to ask how you might vary things up a little bit. How might you find ways to "distract" the monk by involving him in other meaningful activities that highlight his other abilities (movement, etc)?
Varying things up a little bit might help, like having certain target bad guys trying to flee while their more muscled henchmen try to hold down the players long enough for their employers to escape. The monk has to choose whether to give chase using his better maneuverability or take out the goons that might threaten his friends.
Or feature things like the occasional natural disaster (landslide, fire, etc) where the object of the scenario isn't just to kill things but to survive going though horrible circumstances to save lives of property (you've got a kingdom to take care of now, so that usually means NPCs you care about).
And you can from time to time put him out of his element by forcing him to go on the offensive (count down clock of doom? hostages into the overly elaborate/not quite so easily escapable deathtraps?)
Also remember in a game like Kingmaker, the focus is often not so much on the individual encounter but rather the long haul. At level 7 you're not quite to the levels yet where you can buzz around instantly, nobody can do everything at once (there's should be at least a few opportunities to highlight this). So in the realms of diplomacy, espionage, and exploration, just as much focus can be put on what happens when they're not there as when they are. Give 'em choices of where they go and what they do, and with those choices often come the need for sacrifice (less often if they are careful of course).
Dabbler: Isn't the bonus to hit from the buffs only +2? He gets +2 from Bull's Strength, +1 from the Str increase from Enlarge, -1 from the size increase from Enlarge. Or am I missing something? Doesn't change your point, I'm just making sure I'm not missing a rule. :p
I stand corrected, but at 7th level +6 attack bonus is appalling for any front-line character; the monk in my Kingmaker game at 6th level is flurrying at +9/+9/+4 un-buffed.
Edit to Add: Enlarge drops his AC by 2 due to the decrease in Dex, so Cat's Grace is pretty much a wash. However, he's also getting Owl's Wisdom so he's actually getting a +6 to AC (+2 Wis, +4 Armor, +2 Cat's, -2 Enlarge)
Good point. That makes his un-buffed AC22...which means he's only AC 19 without fighting defensively. ANd we haven't asked if he's getting a barkskin off the druid or as a special ability yet...
Suggestion to the OP: throw in a Troll Witch with a dispel magic and a high initiative...it'll only take out one of his buffs but it'll make him really, really worried...In fact I like that idea so much I'm going to use it on my players as they are in the same stage of the game!
Keep in mind that someone can stay in defensive fighting mode basically all the time. They just take the penalties, and don't get the AC bonus until their initiative (and can't use Crane Wing).
Which is actually a good tactic for rogues...
==Aelryinth
One of the things I would like to point out is that a lot of your problems are actually coming from the adventure path. It really focuses on having a slog fest with monsters, with very few casters. Optimized parties will destroy it. I highly recommend adding in more casters as you go. Bards are a great addition in book 4. I can't give you much advice for book 3, since I skipped it and ran my party through book 4 underleveled by 3 levels. I tended to double the numbers of mooks or give them an extra level (without increasing xp) to make even remotely difficult challenges. You probably want to redesign a lot of the encounters that revolve arround having 1-2 big bad monsters with no support. Consider adding in a few mooks. If nothing else, they give everyone something to focus on while the monk tries to tank the big bad
At this level, enemy's first attacks should be more or less auto-hits on everyone who hasn't focused on AC. Do not feel bad about it. It is how the game functions with AC not scalling as fast as hit bonuses. If your players don't have at least a 22 though, they are low and secondary attacks will decimate them.
One thing to keep in mind when dealing with your monk in combat
-if your monk doesn't attack, he doesn't get nearly as much ac or trigger crane stance. Enemies that force your monk to double move before he can engage are great for this. Mounted archers/centaur, people hiding in trees. Alternatively, fly by attacking creatures he has to ready actions against will be very difficult.
One of the things I would like to point out is that a lot of your problems are actually coming from the adventure path. It really focuses on having a slog fest with monsters, with very few casters. Optimized parties will destroy it. I highly recommend adding in more casters as you go. Bards are a great addition in book 4. I can't give you much advice for book 3, since I skipped it and ran my party through book 4 underleveled by 3 levels. I tended to double the numbers of mooks or give them an extra level (without increasing xp) to make even remotely difficult challenges. You probably want to redesign a lot of the encounters that revolve arround having 1-2 big bad monsters with no support. Consider adding in a few mooks. If nothing else, they give everyone something to focus on while the monk tries to tank the big bad
At this level, enemy's first attacks should be more or less auto-hits on everyone who hasn't focused on AC. Do not feel bad about it. It is how the game functions with AC not scalling as fast as hit bonuses. If your players don't have at least a 22 though, they are low and secondary attacks will decimate them.
One thing to keep in mind when dealing with your monk in combat
-if your monk doesn't attack, he doesn't get nearly as much ac or trigger crane stance. Enemies that force your monk to double move before he can engage are great for this. Mounted archers/centaur, people hiding in trees. Alternatively, fly by attacking creatures he has to ready actions against will be very difficult.** spoiler omitted **
This is very comforting to read. As a fellow dm of this AP, I am glad I'm not alone when it comes to the major power-level adjusting I've had to do. As for the quickling... it ravaged the party until it met its end to a lucky hold person.
Ahem.
Strictly speaking...Hold Person shouldn't have worked on a Quickling. They're not Humanoids, they're Fey.
My party was quite large, so I gave them two quicklings to fight. They took some hits but the quicklings found they were not invulnerable to held actions very quickly. The best part was where the rogue was trapped in the courtyard by the (wooden) portcullis trap for three rounds while the barbarian tried to shift the portcullis before the dwarf cleric remembered he had wood shape prepared...