So I'd just like to get peoples opinion on this: Which archetype is better for a melee bard, the Archaeologist or the Dawnflower Dervish?
Archaeologist:
- Luck Based, boosted by fate's favoured (which has synergy with the Jingasa of the fortunate soldier and the Orc's sacred tattoo racial trait), activate as a free action.
Dawnflower Dervish:
- 2x inspire courage/greatness/competence bonus (self only) is pretty rad. But limited in weapon choice to scimitar (which isn't bad)
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I prefer Dawnflower Dervish personally. Dex builds will do less damage than strength, but having one less stat to worry about makes it up to me. Or you could just ignore Dervish Dance and two-hand that scimitar with high strength and power attack.
The double performance bonus is also amazing if you stack it with the Aasimar favored bonus to pump your Inspire Courage or use Master Performer and Grandmaster Performer. 3 feats for +4 attack and damage is nice.
I disagree with going two-weapon fighting. 3/4 BAB plus no bonus feats means it will take you forever for to get many of the feats you need for the style.
Natural attacks though. I agree with that route.
You have such a limited number of uses I don't know why you would ever maintain it. Lingering Performance, and then you only have to spend spend a swift to activate it every 3 rounds while getting three times as many rounds of it up. You could Arcane Strike two thirds of the time.
Dawnflower Dervish isn't limited in weapon choice.
Dervishes of dawn are trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the performances grant double their normal bonuses, but these bonuses only affect him. He does not need to be able to see or hear his own performance. Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, and effects that affect bardic performance, except that battle dancing does not benefit from the Lingering Performance feat or any other ability that allows a bardic performance to grant bonuses after it has ended. The benefits of battle dancing apply only when the bard is wearing light or no armor. Like bardic performance, battle dancing cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities.The only limit is that it affects yourself. The fact that you get the Dervish Dance feat bears no impact on the Battle Dance class ability; you will get those doubled bonuses regardless of what weapon you use. So the best damage between the two options is a Dawnflower Dervish who ditches the Dervish Dance and, instead, goes for a TWF build.
Ah, another that has realized the advantage of dropping dervish dance. Yeah, the battle dance actually makes inspire courage as effective as rage, and a dawnflower dervish keeps pace with the barbarian in bonuses to attacks despite the lower BAB (20+4 versus 15+8).
The bonuses are on each and every hit though (instead of the bonus with strength found in rage, which benefits from the ability to two-hand), so you can work best when you get a lot of hits in. So, much like a ranger or rogue, you do well with either TWF or archery. For an archer, dervish dance might keep some small significance since it allows you a somewhat effective melee option that still draws upon your primary stat. But this is about melee, so that is off topic.
Yeah, TWF is feat intensive, and you do not get the couple of bonus feats a rogue gets through talents, but you also trump a rogue as a 3/4 BAB TWFer since you get bonuses to hit and your damage bonuses are pretty much constant. Arcane strike is also another option that adds a bit more damage potential (although, if I remember correctly, the SLAs from a couple rogue talents can also give arcane strike)
Looking at TWF, at realistically at what level are you going to have 4 attacks and with how many feats invested? With that in mind, I still say Natural Attacks are the way to go. Off the top of my head, Tengu gets 2 claws and a bite and there's a lot of potential for the Skinwalker race alternatives. It's easy to get three attacks to take advantage of those static modifiers at level one with minimal investment, though the crit range on Natural Attacks is terrible.
You have such a limited number of uses I don't know why you would ever maintain it. Lingering Performance, and then you only have to spend spend a swift to activate it every 3 rounds while getting three times as many rounds of it up. You could Arcane Strike two thirds of the time.
Add on a Headband of Fortune's Favor and you can get 4 rounds of luck for one use, upping your Arcane Strike usage to 3/4 rounds.
Level 9. Yes, 3 levels after ranger or fighter, and 1 after a rogue. If you do not use haste at least, which the bard gets at level 7.
Natural attacks can be nice, but hardly the only way to go with this. I like keeping options open. Not every campaign has a place for skinwalkers, although you are hard pressed to find a table without a place for a human.
For example, another path for a natural attack build would be a 2 level dip into ranger with a race with a bite.
Level 9. Yes, 3 levels after ranger or fighter, and 1 after a rogue. If you do not use haste at least, which the bard gets at level 7.
Natural attacks can be nice, but hardly the only way to go with this. I like keeping options open. Not every campaign has a place for skinwalkers, although you are hard pressed to find a table without a place for a human.
For example, another path for a natural attack build would be a 2 level dip into ranger with a race with a bite.
You could dip two levels into ranger and grab the Natural Attack combat style, which nets you Aspect of the Beast. If I recall correctly, Aspect of the Beast gives you a set of claw attacks regardless of your race.
There's also the heavily frowned upon 1 level dip into Synthesist for 3 attacks and pounce, but that's best left discussed. By asking about attack numbers I meant to say that being capped at three attacks without Haste may be less than what you can ultimately get with TWF, but you have them much sooner (and without attack negatives).
But yes, Natural Attacks are hardly the only way to go about it.
I never understood the idea of a synthesist dip. I mean, your fused eidolon's hp is based upon summoner level, and the temp hp goes first, right? So wouldn't a dip mean that you get natural attacks for a couple of rounds while in melee and then they disappear for the rest of the day? That is hardly something you can base a build off of.
You could dip two levels into ranger and grab the Natural Attack combat style, which nets you Aspect of the Beast. If I recall correctly, Aspect of the Beast gives you a set of claw attacks regardless of your race.
I mostly focus on 'races with bites' since the bite/claw/claw combo is pretty much the standard by which natural attack builds are judged. It allows you to maintain a good hold on damage until you get in the range of levels 10-14. This is because, as a general principle, you should have more natural attacks than iteratives in order to surpass the problems they generally face.
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Another thing to keep in mind about battle dance is that as you level up you can switch back and forth between Inspires as a swift action - meaning you can full attack with double inspire courage, drop it as a free and begin doubled inspire heroics before your opponents turn begins. Mix in the occasional inspire greatness to replenish 4d10 temp hit points and you're golden.
Of the two dawnflower dervish is probably stronger, but I suggest looking at Chelish Diva if you have access to Golarion content.
I just looked at it and I don't see anything really good there. Could you elaborate?
It's from the Factions book.
Master Performer only requires Extra Performance and TPA 15 so you can reasonably have that early, especially if you are playing in a game without factions and the DM is cool with waiving that requirement (perhaps in turn for some roleplay requirement, as the Factions Guide suggests).