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Finally got a chance to play one of these without running the monsters myself! I convinced Lord_Malkov into coming over several hours before our regular Carrion Crown game back on Tuesday and began to run this class through the paces.
Anyone who has been following the Swashbuckler discussion thread knows where I stand on most of this stuff, but I really wanted to see Panache in action.
First, our swashbuckler! Since most of my gaming over the last 2 years has been running or playing in adventure paths, I had 15 point buy. I wasn't planning on using the standard array, but it just worked out that way. For books, we used all of the core hardcovers. I decided to build a well-rounded swash with Extra Panache so that I could try out as many deeds as possible.
I chose level 7 because it is a nice level where most classes have access to the majority of their abilities and you can really get a feel for how they play. APL 7 also gives a nice variety of encounter selections.
STR 13 DEX 20 CON 12 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 16
Init +5(+7)
AC: 27, touch 18, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +1 deflection, +5 Dex, +2 dodge, +3 shield)
hp 59
Fort +5, Ref +11, Will +3 (+1 vs. fear)
Melee +1 Rapier +13/+8 (1d6+9+(7)/15-20x2) {power attack is factored into this already}
Skills Acrobatics +15, Bluff +13, Intimidate +13, Perception +10
Feats Combat Reflexes, Extra Panache, Lunge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Rapier, Weapon Specialization: Rapier
Traits Charmer, Resilient
Notable Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, +2 Buckler, +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +1, Headband of Alluring Charisma +2, +1 Rapier, Ring of Protection +1, 3 potions of cure light wounds
I think this is the sort of character Paizo was going for, although I don't claim to be a mindreader. Either way, he has a Panache pool of 5 so I can try to utilize deeds, and he has Combat Reflexes so he can (hopefully) get his Riposte on. The saves are a still a little light, and I think if I were doing it over I'd scale some AC gear back to get a +2 cloak... although that doesn't do a whole lot.
I didn't take a +2 equivalent weapon because 8,000gp is more than a third of my allotted WBL on a single item, although it is really close to a third, so maybe I should have (some iconics do). Ultimately the extra 6000gp was spent to get 2 points of armor class, which is probably a bad trade. If I did it all over I would go with +1 armor and +1 buckler to get a +2 rapier.
One last note on Jack Stiles: in my excitement to play this character, I forgot to add the +3 from the buckler to Jack's AC for the first 2 encounters.. I correctly added it to his flat-footed AC, but somehow forgot it in his normal AC until awhile in when I couldn't figure out how Jack had such high touch and flat-footed armor classes. Whoops.
Alright! So to begin the adventure Jack needed some friends. Seeing as how I am an old-school gamer, the classic foursome will always be Cleric/Fighter/Thief(ahem)Rogue/Wizard. As the swashbuckler is an alternate fighter class, it seemed fitting to put Jack into that slot. So to round us out we have the iconics from the NPC Codex, modified to 15pt buy. I'm calling them Kyra-lite, Merisiel-lite, and Ezren-lite.
The Quest
Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. The prince's bride-to-be has been kidnapped and Jack has to rescue her! This requires going through the Ogre Woods, over the Rolling Plains, and into the Evil Sorcerer's Tower!
The encounter selection was planned to give a variety of situations and give Jack some times to shine and some times to struggle. The other thing we wanted to see was how the party would hold up over the course of several encounters. We figured that four fights without resting would be a good sample to see how the class does over the course of th adventuring day.
THREAT -- 4 Ogres
Why we chose this threat: Reading some other playtest threads, it appears that Swashbucklers are very good against multiple, weaker enemies (although that could be said for many classes). Either way, we thought we would start Jack off with an opportunity to shine. Also, ogres are a convenient 4 hit dice, so level 7 Jack can get his Panache back while fighting them.
How the encounter went: The fight went very well for the party. Since Jack and Merisiel-lite have such high ACs, the large damage potential of the ogres was minimized. Jack did take one wallop of a hit, but otherwise the party was unscathed. With a Panache pool of 5, Jack was taking full advantage of Precise Strike on every round, as well as throwing in a few parry/riposte attempts. Once Merisiel-lite got to flanking positions on round 3, the fight wrapped up pretty quickly. Jack only had 2 panache at the end of the fight, however, so if I were to do it again I wouldn't have been as aggressive with Opportune Parry attempts, since--with a really high AC--I was just fishing for Riposte attempts against lesser foes. I will note that the Panache pool was all over the place, and although I never got close to 5 again, I did shoot back up to four at one point during a good round of attacks.
Takeaways: Well, the first thing we realized is that having such a high armor class makes Opportune Parry less valuable than it looks on paper. If Jack's attack bonus +10 was higher than his AC, this deed would probably be great (sadly, another strike against Dex builds). As it was, Jack used it anyway because I was hoping to generate free attacks with Riposte. Unfortunately, I did not avoid an attack due to Opportune Parry a single time in this encounter or throughout this entire playtest, and also did not hit once with Riposte on the few times I had the Panache to spend on it. The missing on ripostes, however, can be blamed on some atrocious dice rolls. I do not regret paying the price to take the extra swings.
THREAT -- 1 Bulette
Why we chose this threat: After the fight with multiple weaker enemies, we wanted to see how Jack did in the fight against one big enemy. Taking a quick glance through the back of the Bestiary looking for a CR 7 monster, we wanted something powerful that Jack could use Precise Strike on. Of the 30 monsters listed, 9 don't take precision damage, and 2 are dragons, which we felt would annihilate this group on an open plain.
How the encounter went: Well, the party was surprised by the bulette, who leaped out of the ground to attack the group. Jack, as you may recall, was sitting on 2 Panache points, and decided that using Recovery to step away from a pouncing monster while his AC was down would be a good idea, but Jack isn't allowed to use an immediate action while flat-footed. This was a situation where Opportune Parry would have been better than relying on flat-footed AC, but, obviously, flat-footed characters cannot make attacks of opportunity, which we are assuming this deed is (even though it isn't clearly stated RAW, the intention seems clear).
Anyway, that initial leap attack was pretty nasty, and the bulette winning the initiative roll and attacking flat-footed AC again was also pretty nasty, but Jack is a brave guy so he pressed forward with 8 hit points! Besides, who else was going to occupy the giant monster? Ezren-lite? Since the panache point couldn't be spent in the surprise round, Jack was faced with a decision: Precise Strike or a possible Opportune Parry? I know what you are all thinking: what decision? Jack was rolling with only 8hp at this point, though. So, against the weight of my experience fighting the ogres, I decided to bet on deeds over damage and increase the odds of surviving just in case Kyra-lite's healing wasn't enough. It turns out I parried a bite that missed anyway, and got hit by a claw attack. Thankfully, Kyra-lite was able to drop some very good healing throughout this battle. Really, it was about hanging on and hoping for a critical hit while Merisiel-lite worked her way into flanking position. It was at this point where I began to wonder what made me any better at combat than the rogue iconic? Made some futile Intimidation attempts with Menacing Swordplay since I didn't have the Panache to Precise Strike for most of the fight. Ultimately the bulette was defeated by Jack with a critical hit (hooray prestige!) and Kyra-lite patched Jack and Merisiel-lite up. Merisiel-lite (I assume from her answer thread) only got hurt so that Kyra-lite would touch her. The end Panache pool here was 3, so I felt better about the upcoming challenge. Kyra-lite, meanwhile, was a little concerned about her remaining spells.
Takeaways:Didn't learn too much from this encounter, although I felt a little outclassed by the rogue. I'll put some things about Panache into my final thoughts, as well as my question about when you earn it, but otherwise I don't know how to feel about this fight. If I was a traditional fighter I would have taken more damage, but I would have more hit points and kill the bulette faster. I do know that Kyra-lite and Merisiel-lite were the stars of this encounter, although Jack managed to be enough of a meatshield.
At this point the rest of our gaming group arrived and we went on to finish Broken Moon, where my awesome varisian fortune-teller was cheap shot by a circle of death. Really soured my night. Anyway, I had to con/beg/harass my girlfriend (who plays in the Carrion Crown group, but doesn't see the point of playtesting swashbucklers) into helping out for the rest of the playtest later. It was at this time that I realized Jack's AC should be 27.
THREAT -- 1 Bearded Devil and 3 Fire Elementals (medium).
Why we chose this threat: This was a good mash-up of enemies, with some being immune to precision damage. It also felt like a mix of the previous two encounter types.
How the encounter went: Jack was first up on initiative, so, with no charge line to the devil, he decided to spring right into the room and attack a fire elemental. This may not have been the wisest decision, since he was immediately flanked by elementals while the third blocked the door. Still, Jack's high AC kept him from most harm, and when he was hit his good Reflex save kept him from catching fire. While the rest of the party went to work trying to get into the room, the bearded devil came to kill Jack. This seemed like a great time for Recovery, but as it would provoke two attacks of opportunity I began to wish I could use my considerable Acrobatics skill to avoid those. As written, Jack has to depend on his AC and take the swings. Perhaps that would make the Deed too powerful (considering the vibe I get from the devs, they think a lot of things are too powerful). In any event, Jack decided to flex his parrying skills instead, because there was enough Panache in the pool to possibly Riposte. The parry was successful (although the devil would have missed anyway), and, sadly, the riposte missed.
Down to one Panache, Jack stepped in to battle the devil! With a huge critical hit (bringing up some important questions asked below) providing a point of panache to fuel a follow up Precise Strike, the devil was down to barely any health in one round of combat. The fight was wrapped up after a few rounds, with the elementals doing very little damage but taking awhile to kill since they are immune to precision damage--leaving Jack and Merisiel-lite without significant class features.
Takeaways: Still no love from parry/riposte! I do like the fluctuating panache pool, as it adds some excitement. That stated, I had to invest significant character resources to get a pool that hasn't provided a ton of boost (although it is fun to spend and manage). The question of when EXACTLY you earn panache came up again, and I'll have more on that at the end. I felt a little impotent against elementals, but with 1d6+9, the damage isn't too awful. Although a different level 7 martial would be doing a fair piece more than that.
THREAT -- 1 Trickster Mage and 1 fire elemental (huge)
Why we chose this threat: Well for one, it is an Evil Sorcerer's Tower. Anyway, we figured that we would test the swash against a bad matchup. So enter the spellcaster. And, of course, no Evil Sorcerer is going to face the heroes without his bodyguard! It also thematically links to the previous encounter. This is a bad fight for a guy with Precise Strike, but it also means that Jack might be willing to spend that last panache! To help swing this back in the party's favor a little bit, the fight occurred in a 20ft. radius room, so the sorcerer didn't have anywhere to run and the fire elemental couldn't take as much advantage of Spring Attack.
How the encounter went: It was not a good day for Jack Stiles. The sorcerer knew the party was coming thanks to the telepathic devil, and he was able to have mirror image and a readied charm person prepared. Merisiel-lite was the first to open the door, and made a fantastic roll to avoid being charmed--so far, so good. The party had a difficult time entering the room since DC 34 Acrobatics checks are pretty steep, even for Merisiel-lite, and with Combat Reflexes the elemental was slowing things down. Jack got in and did a little damage (DR 5/- eek!) before failing a save to hideous laughter. Thankfully, Ezren-lite was able to use the soft cover rules to get into the room without being walloped and gambled on defensively casting shout. The gamble paid off! With both the elemental and, more importantly, the trickster mage failing their saves, there was hope again! Realizing she could do very little against the elemental, Merisiel-lite began making her way around the elemental. Jack, sadly, failed his second save. The deaf sorcerer failed to cast a spell and Kyra-lite had to ignore the fire elemenal to keep Ezren-lite from being killed. The next few rounds have little to do with Jack, since he was laughing uncontrollably, so I'll skip over the details. Eventually, Merisiel-lite made it to the gnome and eviscerated him and Kyra-lite used dispel magic to free Jack after Ezren died. The combat took 13 rounds, and ended in a dead wizard and a dead cleric. Still, Jack did manage to save the prince's bride-to-be.
Takeaways: Well, I don't want to put too much weight on that failed hideous laughter save, since any fighter would have been in a similar boat. The real problem is that once Jack was back in the fight, he was only able to swing for 1d6+4 damage (thanks to DR). Jack did a good job of not dying, thanks to his high AC and Reflex save, but he couldn't stop the elemental from killing his friends. Kyra-lite died late in the fight, and if the party could have taken the fire elemental out sooner she would have survived. This has always been the reason why fighters opt for damage. The best way to support the group is to remove threats to them. Trading damage for armor class is rarely worth it--look at a barbarian, for example. The other spot of confusion in this fight was Pommel Swipe, which Jack used to attempt to deal more damage to the elemental. More on that below.
THE BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT CAME UP SEVERAL TIMES
When exactly do you get the panache point for a critical hit? This can be very important in multiple situations. The one that came up for me a few times was with Precise Strike. It is pretty obvious it would come up with Bleeding Wound at later levels as well.
EXAMPLE:
Jack has 0 panache in his pool. He then confirms a critical hit against an Ogre. Does he gain that panache right when the critical hit is confirmed? Since this is before the damage roll, Jack then gets to add his level to damage via Precise Strike since he now has one point of panache. Even better, he can take a swift action to double up on Precise Strike. At 11th this can be used to fuel Bleeding Wound instantly as well. I think this is the way it works, but it would be nice to have some clarification.
ANOTHER IMPORTANT QUESTION
What do I add to Pommel Swipe attacks? Do I get Precise Strike? I am still attacking with a one-handed piercing weapon... sort of. One way to interpret it is that it is an entirely different "weapon" (which explains the line about being proficient in it). If that is the case, Pommel Swipe is just one more thing Str-based swashbucklers will be better at, since the weapon is bludgeoning and doesn't gain the benefits of Swashbuckler's Weapon Finesse, Swashbuckler's Weapon Training, any weapon feats, or Precise Strike. You can still apply Str modifiers and Power Attack though! Additionally, if you cannot use your various weapon abilities and feats on this attack, that means they will not apply to the combat maneuver roll... which is another feather in Strength's cap (sans Agile Maneuvers). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if this deed is either great, because it can lead to other, worthwhile attacks, or a bad use of panache, because the extra attack will be very ineffective--unless I'm not a Dex/Cha swashbuckler, in which case it can still be mildly effective.
A NOT THAT IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT CAME UP ONCE
Can Jack use Acrobatics to avoid attacks of opportunity when using the Recovery deed? I think the answer is no because the Acrobatics skill mentions being part of a move action, which Recovery isn't. If not, I would like to suggest that it should be. I'm already spending a panache and an immediate action.
PANACHE
I like the panache concept, although the heavy tax of swift/immediate actions make using it difficult, and the less-than-effective Opportune Parry/Riposte experience makes me think that I'd be less likely to play the swashbuckler that way in the future. As a side note, I would be even less likely to use Opportune Parry/Riposte if it cost an immediate action. There are already a bunch of options that require swift and immediate actions, that, unfortunately, marginalize many deeds that would otherwise be cool. I only used Menacing Swordplay when I was completely out of panache (well, expendable panache) even though it is, in my opinion, a very neat deed. Spending the last panache point wasn't even a consideration (else every fight could have turned out like the last one) until Precise Strike didn't mean anything. Considering how much one must invest to get a decent panache pool, and how expensive the 1st level deeds are, I think the way the pool is calculated should be altered. I like 1+CHA modifier (minimum 0), but that is just me.
I thought I might use Swift Feint a few times to set up the rogue, but it was hard to justify a standard action when I had any panache in the pool and could be swinging instead. The time I would have loved to use it was against the huge fire elemental, as getting around to flank that thing is tough, but since it is immune to precision damage, there really wasn't a point.
Opportune Parry and Riposte were no good to me at all. Part of this was due to bad dice rolls, but through 12 attempts, Opportune Parry turned exactly zero hits into misses. I was able to attempt 3 Ripostes, but rolled poorly on all three attacks. That said, I don't think that Riposte is bad at all, since it was always exciting when the panache was there to do it. So while I think Opportune Parry needs some work, Riposte is a blast.
THE BLESSING AND CURSE OF PRECISE STRIKE
This deed does a few things that both enhance the class and hold them back. For one, spending the last panache point was never an option, because losing 7 damage a swing cannot be made up for by anything else you can spend that point on. It does, however, make up for the limiting fighting style that the deed itself forces upon the swashbuckler--which is nice because otherwise one-handed weapons without shield and/or TWF feats is a weak choice. In the scenarios where Precise Strike was applicable, the damage was comparable to fighters and I felt pretty good about Jack contributing to the party. The scenarios where it was not applicable, the damage dropped off precipitously and I felt like Jack was no better at combat than Merisiel-lite. The promise of spending panache to get even more damage always seems to win out over any other deed, which makes sense since the martial is supposed to kill enemies and absorb attacks, and no other deed contributes to that as well as Precise Strike. And so when panache was available to spend, there was really very little question as to what it should be spent on, even though I stubbornly tried to talk myself into other choices. The damage swing of this deed is also large enough that it may prevent any other much needed changes to the class, such as anything to make the Dex/Cha build the most effective build for filling the role of the group's martial character. Even though my math says that Precise Strike, assuming that it is clarified about not swinging weapons two-handed, really only makes up for not being able to swing a two-handed weapon or use two-weapon fighting. Part of why I thought it was so brilliant when I initially read it over--just like how Nimble seems like a great ability when it is just compensation for not wearing heavy armor. Giving players the same effect while making it seem as though they are getting cool stuff is a great idea that helps promote a style a play up to an effective level, and it gives out shiny stuff at various levels that I can write on my character sheet. That said, I hope the designers remember that these "boosts," are, effectively, just trade-offs that add up to the same sum, and don't go nuts over how other abilities cannot possibly be worked in because of all the other "boosts" in the list.
OVERALL CONCLUSION
My views on the swashbuckler remain mostly unchanged. The end result is that two party members died in the last fight, due in no small part to Jack's inability to prevent the fire elemental from killing them. Obviously, the last encounter was set up to be difficult, but it wasn't a batch of rare monsters. I did not feel ridiculously powerful when smacking ogres around (which was chosen to let the swash shine), but I did feel incredibly impotent fighting through the last encounter (which was chosen to make the swash squirm).
The main issue is that I am still in the firm belief that a Str-based swashbuckler who dumps Cha will be far superior in combat. I will make a point to run the same encounters with one as soon as I can. I cannot stress how much I want this class to mechanically support the class description. There is absolutely a place for a Dex-based fighter in Pathfinder, but I simply cannot see it happening unless something is done to make Dex the best way for a swashbuckler to go. Something tells me I won't suffer the frustration of that elemental fight if I go Strength and play a "fighter with some tricks."
APPENDIX 1: THIS IDEA THAT I HAD THAT I'M HOPING PAIZO ALREADY DID AND ARE PLANNING TO IMPLEMENT
Fencing Style feats!!! How great would it be to recreate the Inigo/Man-in-black duel IN GAME! How badly do I want to use Orisini's Defense? Very badly. Basically just style feats that grant deeds or modify deeds or otherwise enhance particular fighting styles. From Edge of Anarchy we know that the Orisini Fencing Style is free hand with a rapier, for example. There are a lot of opportunities to make some very neat options here, and they can help make weapons with lower critical threat ranges equally desirable.
APPENDIX 2: BEGGING THE DESIGNERS FOR DEX/CHA BUILDS TO BE THE BEST MECHANICALLY
Please please please! I want this to work so bad it hurts. I know that I've been hyper-critical over on the class discussion thread, and I apologize if I've been a little insensitive to you designers, who I know are good people that put out some pretty great products. That thread has a multitude of suggestions (some of which are even worthy of consideration) to make this happen, though I fear greatly that Dex to damage may be the only sure-fire way to do it, and even though Gunslingers get this ability and don't have to stand in melee range, it is apparently way to overpowered for another class, intended to be the Dex fighter and based heavily upon the one that gets it, to have. I don't necessarily want Dex to damage, I just don't see another way to make Dex a better choice than Str for a melee character. I promise I am completely open to other ideas. Please save this class! Also, while I'm at it, please don't let this class fail just because of multi-classing! The greatest design success of Pathfinder over 3.5 (imo) was retooling the classes so that I really do not want to leave it for another one. Rather than spend so much time worrying about the swashbuckler being a dip class for Dex fighters, why not just make it the most attractive class for Dex fighters? Please, you can't know how much I want this concept to be realized.
Because Combat Reflexes allows you to make AoOs while flat-footed, I think you can also, in the current writeup anyway, use CR to make Parries while flat-footed as well. Assuming Riposte becomes an immediate action, though, you still wouldn't be able to riposte even if you do successfully parry.
That is a very good point that I overlooked. Still, Opportune Parry isn't technically an attack of opportunity as written, so we weren't treating it as such.
In that same situation, Recovery absolutely cannot be used because it is an immediate action, which I realized later (I wrote the first half of this between encounters 2 and 3).
Also, I cannot believe anybody actually read all of that.
Good stuff, yes I read all of it!
I ran through the encounters with a STR/CON swashbuckler, and I will post up the details as soon as I have some time. I also put Jack Stiles through a different mini adventure, but at lower level so that will likely be in another post. In the meanwhile, I just want to bump this now that the devs are back in the office so that they take a look at those questions, which are still affecting Jack Stiles in the playtests.
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Me too!
I hope the designers did!
Also, love the idea about fencing styles. Maybe feats, maybe 'fencing schools' (like swordsman's schools in 7th Sea) that would be mechanically similar to cavalier orders.
Oh, I LOVE this idea. This should be an archetype when all is said and done. Using the various schools from history as "selling" points.
You could have two initial themes, an offensive based one which focused on those aggressive styles and play into either the Swashbuckler Deeds, or perhaps institutes new ones based on the common offensive actions; Attack, Feint, Lunge, Disengage, Continuation of Attack, Remise, Flick.
And in retrospect you would have a more defensive option which focuses on those types who play with their opponent, waiting for the right moment to strike, instituting the defensive actions of the sport; Defensive, Parry, Circle Parry, Riposte, Counter Attack, Point In Line.
Somehow tossing in flavor (like cavalier/samurai orders) that may allow one to emulate the most common/famous schools of their time. I mean who doesn't want to be Syrio Forel from GoT? Perhaps showcasing duelists like Agrippa, Boessiere, Capo Ferro, Fabris, or perhaps Grassi or Silver. Would bring a much needed sense of "sport" to the class by and large and could allow players another window into static RP similar to the Gladiatorial style games that I so loved RP'ing as a young player.