Say you Have three casters working together.
One casts create pit to make a 10X10 hole and a monster falls in.
One cast aqueous orb to fill it with churning water.
The other cast wall of ice to seal it.
= damage and eventual drowning with no way out?
Add in a water mephit for good measure and you have a deadly combination unless I'm overlooking something?
Wall of Ice is too easy to break. Better to use a wall of force. Though no drowning is going to take place. The orb will dissipate long before any creature is in danger of drowning. Besides, at the level you would have to be to do all this you would likely be fighting something that will fly above the orb and wait for it to dissipate, or just teleport out of it.
Except the pit will be at least 20-40 feet deep at the level you are able to cast all these spells. And wall of ice should be destroyed in 1 hit. It has 3 HP per inch of thickness.
Just a quick clarification - Aqueous Orb is a 10 foot diameter sphere. Create Pit makes a 10 foot by 10 foot pit. This means that there is room in the corner of the pit for a creature to avoid the churning waters of the Aqueous Orb. Basically, they still have to fail their Reflex save to actually be caught in the Aqueous Orb.
Heck, even if the Aqueous Orb filled the whole pit, nothing in the rules says that creatures trapped within would not get a Reflex save (though I'd give them a -2 circumstance penalty) - exact same way a rogue with Evasion can be targeted with the center of a Fireball (even if trapped in a pit) and still completely evade the damage.
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Except the pit will be at least 20-40 feet deep at the level you are able to cast all these spells. And wall of ice should be destroyed in 1 hit. It has 3 HP per inch of thickness.
you can cast spells for lessened effect. its not often used though.
ex. you could toss a 3d6 fireball even if you're a 9th level wizard. if you just wanted to put on a show.
Acid pit should be used instead. Wall of force used as well. you cast a quickened acid pit, then cast a wall of fire in pit and then your contingency wall of force appears 10ft upabove the bottom of the pit. They start drowning in acid and cannot escape unless they get rid of the force.
Quickened Acid Pit... Contingency Wall of Force... There are (obviously) better things a 15th level caster could do with a Swift Action, a Standard Action, and a Contingency Spell. The OP is talking about doing this at a level significantly prior to 15th by having a few casters work together. To your point though, Titania, Wall of Force (when available) is obviously superior to Wall of Ice. Even then, there are better combos to pull off at 9th level... Ill Omen + Baleful Polymorph comes to mind. Also, another thing to remember - Acid pit doesn't just kill creatures, it also destroy items, so it's wise to be careful about who gets dumped into an acid pit.
Heck, even at 7th level when Wall of Ice is available, Ill Omen + Phantasmal Killer is a significantly superior combo that only requires two casters, one of which is only throwing a first level spell which grants no saving throw, though that caster must be a Witch.
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youre putting way too much thought into this, all you need to make create pit truly broken is a large piece of parchment.
lay down a 20x20 foot piece of parchment then cast create pit, when someone falls into the pit walk over and fold the paper in half as many times as you can. when the spell end the target hits the opening of the pit and dies.
"You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to avoid falling into it. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it. Creatures subjected to an effect intended to push them into the pit (such as bull rush) do not get a saving throw to avoid falling in if they are affected by the pushing effect.
Creatures who fall into the pit take falling damage as normal. The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25. When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round.
youre putting way too much thought into this, all you need to make create pit truly broken is a large piece of parchment.
lay down a 20x20 foot piece of parchment then cast create pit, when someone falls into the pit walk over and fold the paper in half as many times as you can. when the spell end the target hits the opening of the pit and dies.
Brilliant. Though getting them to step on paper is going to be the tricky part.
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youre putting way too much thought into this, all you need to make create pit truly broken is a large piece of parchment.
lay down a 20x20 foot piece of parchment then cast create pit, when someone falls into the pit walk over and fold the paper in half as many times as you can. when the spell end the target hits the opening of the pit and dies.
DMs that let players get away with things like this instead of just doing the obvious thing and having the target shunted out when the pit spells ends are one of the reasons for the "martials suck, magic rules" mentality. At BEST, the creature would not be able to exit the pit once they got to the top and would have to wait until the spell ended.
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DMs that let players get away with things like this instead of just doing the obvious thing and having the target shunted out when the pit spells ends are one of the reasons for the "martials suck, magic rules" mentality. At BEST, the creature would not be able to exit the pit once they got to the top and would have to wait until the spell ended.youre putting way too much thought into this, all you need to make create pit truly broken is a large piece of parchment.
lay down a 20x20 foot piece of parchment then cast create pit, when someone falls into the pit walk over and fold the paper in half as many times as you can. when the spell end the target hits the opening of the pit and dies.
until you get folded by reality 100 times and turned into an accordion man. because that's how 4th dimensions work.
honestly that mentality sounds like "i dont like that this is broken so i change it and pout about it". but by RAW, and physics, the target would die
DMs that let players get away with things like this instead of just doing the obvious thing and having the target shunted out when the pit spells ends are one of the reasons for the "martials suck, magic rules" mentality. At BEST, the creature would not be able to exit the pit once they got to the top and would have to wait until the spell ended.youre putting way too much thought into this, all you need to make create pit truly broken is a large piece of parchment.
lay down a 20x20 foot piece of parchment then cast create pit, when someone falls into the pit walk over and fold the paper in half as many times as you can. when the spell end the target hits the opening of the pit and dies.
until you get folded by reality 100 times and turned into an accordion man. because that's how 4th dimensions work.
honestly that mentality sounds like "i dont like that this is broken so i change it and pout about it". but by RAW, and physics, the target would die
I admit that luring an enemy onto a 20 foot wide sheet of paper is hard to pull off. Even so, using Create Pit as you've suggested is OBVIOUSLY "using" (exploiting) the rules to achieve an end result that was not intended by the spell. If you can't see that, then I see absolutely no reason to discuss this point any further.
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how much does an extradimensional space weigh? can you lift and fold that much?
does the opening anchor its point in relative space?
the spell requires a flat surface of the minimum 10x10 dimensions, if you destroy that flat surface, do you prematurely end the spell?
all things the GM can nail you on if you really try it.
...your contingency wall of force
You cannot use contingency with wall of force - contingent spells must target the caster.
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@ Titania, the Summer Queen
ok you're not grasping the concept of whats happening...
the person inside the pit is looking up at a normal looking opening, BUT once something passes through the plain (the opening of the pit) the object would be directed downward back into the pit. so until the spell ends, AKA your feet extend past the plain, you would be folded 100 ways and would stay that way until the spell ended completely, at which point the 4th dimension would cease to exist and you would be held in that state while existing in the 3rd dimension AKA our reality. basically you would have a dysfunctional anatomy and die.
7 folds equated to over 128 bends in reality (i think)
how much does an extradimensional space weigh? can you lift and fold that much?
does the opening anchor its point in relative space?
the spell requires a flat surface of the minimum 10x10 dimensions, if you destroy that flat surface, do you prematurely end the spell?all things the GM can nail you on if you really try it.
ummmmmmmmmmmm read the spell?
Also thesidekick, nothing in the rules say you die. By arbitrarily applied physics yes you might die, by RAW you do not.
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Also thesidekick, nothing in the rules say you die. By arbitrarily applied physics yes you might die, by RAW you do not.
actually i believe suffocation rules would apply.
Also thesidekick, nothing in the rules say you die. By arbitrarily applied physics yes you might die, by RAW you do not.
i don't know if i would consider theoretical spacial anomaly and singularities ... arbitrary.
if we're going for physics, you can only fold a piece of paper In half 7 times...
http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/07/23/why-cant-you-fold-a-piece-of-pape r-more-than-seven-times/
Fixed that.
Also thesidekick, nothing in the rules say you die. By arbitrarily applied physics yes you might die, by RAW you do not.actually i believe suffocation rules would apply.
Because the pit isn't filled with air, since the Create Pit spell doesn't explicitly say it is filled with air...? Or because creatures go through that much air in a matter of a minute or two...?
I honestly though that TheSideKick as throwing this out as a joke initially, and now I'm not so sure...
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@ Titania, the Summer Queen
ok you're not grasping the concept of whats happening...the person inside the pit is looking up at a normal looking opening, BUT once something passes through the plain (the opening of the pit) the object would be directed downward back into the pit. so until the spell ends, AKA your feet extend past the plain, you would be folded 100 ways and would stay that way until the spell ended completely, at which point the 4th dimension would cease to exist and you would be held in that state while existing in the 3rd dimension AKA our reality. basically you would have a dysfunctional anatomy and die.
7 folds equated to over 128 bends in reality (i think)
ummmmmmmmmmmm read the spell?how much does an extradimensional space weigh? can you lift and fold that much?
does the opening anchor its point in relative space?
the spell requires a flat surface of the minimum 10x10 dimensions, if you destroy that flat surface, do you prematurely end the spell?all things the GM can nail you on if you really try it.
I am reading the spell. are you ?
You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size
In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.
you make fold #1 ( which will probably take you a minute after casting the spell ) , and you suddenly don't have a horizontal surface for the spell to exist on: the 2 dimensional opening has been disrupted and folded into a 3rd dimension, you break the spell. shunting everyone in it to the surface. which is paper, so they break through it.
the spell will wear off before you get fold # 2 in place.and you'd need a troop of people to coordinate the folding.
the OP at least had 3 casters doing three spells. that has a better chance of working than that hairbrained scheme
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the OP at least had 3 casters doing three spells. that has a better chance of working than that hairbrained scheme
When I read the word "hairbrained", I laughed out loud at work and my boss gave me a sideways glance. Thanks for that one. =)
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Also thesidekick, nothing in the rules say you die. By arbitrarily applied physics yes you might die, by RAW you do not.actually i believe suffocation rules would apply.Because the Create Pit isn't filled with air, since it doesn't explicitly say it is, or because creatures go through that much air in a matter of a minute or two...?
I honestly though that TheSideKick as throwing this out as a joke initially, and now I'm not so sure...
and im pretty sure you still dont grasp whats going on.
and im pretty sure you still dont grasp whats going on.Also thesidekick, nothing in the rules say you die. By arbitrarily applied physics yes you might die, by RAW you do not.actually i believe suffocation rules would apply.Because the Create Pit isn't filled with air, since it doesn't explicitly say it is, or because creatures go through that much air in a matter of a minute or two...?
I honestly though that TheSideKick as throwing this out as a joke initially, and now I'm not so sure...
Yes, when I can't agree with another person on anything, I always choose to assume it's them not understanding the issue as well. I find that this is the best way to enlightenment... /Sarcasm
But seriously, you're the only one in this thread so far that seems to think what you're suggesting should actually work. I count at least 3 or 4 people agreeing that death by paper is obviously not the way this Create Pit + folding paper trick should be adjudicated.
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As a GM I'd get a good laugh if a player tried this. Then they would see the pit right where they left it.