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Just to reiterate what thejeff said, the term "magic mart" is virtually always used as a derogatory reference to players having the ability to locate and acquire specific items from the rule books without having to rely on the GM to make the items available.
Actual "magic marts" where you can buy pretty much anything you want off a shelf is something I have personally never encountered in my entire career as a gamer. At most you might find a store with a wide selection of magic items in a big city.
Which is one of my problems with this whole issue. People scoff at the idea that there are "Big Box Magic Stores" like a Walmagic or something. That never is the case, but if you allow a player to say "My character wants X magic item, here's the cash" and that GM says "No problem, you can find that at Y." As soon as that happens accusations of "Magic Mart! Magic Mart! Nyaaa nyaaa!" start flying.
Just to reiterate what thejeff said, the term "magic mart" is virtually always used as a derogatory reference to players having the ability to locate and acquire specific items from the rule books without having to rely on the GM to make the items available.
Actual "magic marts" where you can buy pretty much anything you want off a shelf is something I have personally never encountered in my entire career as a gamer. At most you might find a store with a wide selection of magic items in a big city.
Which is one of my problems with this whole issue. People scoff at the idea that there are "Big Box Magic Stores" like a Walmagic or something. That never is the case, but if you allow a player to say "My character wants X magic item, here's the cash" and that GM says "No problem, you can find that at Y." As soon as that happens accusations of "Magic Mart! Magic Mart! Nyaaa nyaaa!" start flying.
i agree with this
it's not a one stop walmart kinda deal
it is either a bazaar, or findable amongst one of the structures in the entire city if you search far enough.
Wow, all this talk has me wondering if I shouldnt have stuck with my Hyborian Campaign where the setting doesnt even entertain such notions. I run a pretty low magic game certainly, I prefer them, but if the very mechanics of Pathfinder REQUIRE this sort of dynamic, Im going to be doing a lot of adjusting along the way.Yes, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible to run a low wealth/magic PF game, but you have to fight the system to do so. You either need a house rule (see the inherent bonuses that were discussed earlier), or you need enough experience to gauge your own 'challenge ratings.' (Which is the less than ideal solution, as it fundamentally changes combat dynamics regardless of how much experience you have.)
Yeah, that's the real issue with Pathfinder. A lot of the major numbers, like AC, don't scale very well without magic added in. Full Plate, a tower shield, and fighting defensively only gets a fighter up to mid-upper 20s as far as AC goes (and you're taking a -6 to hit just to pull that off). It's notable that of the traditional Big Six, half of those items are AC-boosters (Magic Armor, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor).
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The whole idea of selling goods for a fixed priced didn't exist before the nineteenth century, because before then goods were not, with a few rare exceptions, manufactured to any kind of standard that you could attach a fixed price too. Cannons and muskets were exceptions to this rule, but they were seldom bought by individuals - usually they were bought in large numbers by governments to arm army and navy.
Well, no. Any period of time that involved merchant trade also involved prices that stayed within a relatively fixed range. While some trade existed in order to provide folks with good X with good Y, much of it was purposed to exploit price discrepancies: Item X is more expensive in Eastasia, and I can make a profit carrying item X to Eastasia, even after factoring in travel costs. Hermes, and later Mercury, was the god of Trade, Weights, and Measures. Some of those weights and measures were for amounts of goods, but others were to ensure currency value for prices with a relatively fixed value. The entire point of mercantile guilds was to establish standardized prices and quality and those existed long before the 19th century. They didn't exist on a industrial scale, but they did exist.
Insofar as magical shops are concerned, I'm fine with them and they make sense by the internal logic of the game. A percentage of a population are spellcasters and a percentage of those spellcasters will have item creation feats. Excluding those already a part of a large organization (i.e. a church), a small crafter population would rationally seek a solution to their sales that didn't involve them dividing their time between crafting and managing a storefront. Your higher end items (staves, potent weapons and wondrous items) would be more likely to be done via commission due to upfront costs.
That being said, I get why they offend some folks' sensibilities. Aragorn didn't buy Andruil at the Magic Sword Swap Meet. But the mathematics of the challenge rating system incorporate presumptions about magical boosts to stats: AC, Saves, Attack Bonuses - they all scale to CR based on the inclusion of magical bonuses.
Here is a dumb question: can you tell me where it says in the rulebook that the magical bonuses are included in the calculation of CR?
Here is a dumb question: can you tell me where it says in the rulebook that the magical bonuses are included in the calculation of CR?
Typically the parts where it says DR x/Magic.
It's less magical bonuses then PC wealth.
An NPC done with PC wealth is +1 CR.
Keep in mind that in campaigns where Magic is rare, martials don't need no stinking magic to be badass. Conan was a Rgr/6-10 with FE: Humans and Beasts, he didn't need no magic sword to kick ass in an EL 6 world.
Having nat 18's in all his ability scores doesn't hurt, either.
Unfortunately, Conan in the books would get destroyed by PF monsters. He has neither the weapons nor the abilities to take on such things.
Aragorn was one of the greatest rangers in the setting. He typically fought level 1-4 enemies. He didn't need great magic to take them on.
If you want to play an EL6 world, it's easy to have low magic, because the scale of enemies you fight don't demand greater magic. In PF, which is a very high magic El20 world, it just doesn't work all that well as you level up. Your class abilities are built around the fact you WILL have a certain amount of magic, and so are the monsters.
Strip the one away without completely rebalancing the others, and there's going to be problems.
==Aelryinth
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Here is a dumb question: can you tell me where it says in the rulebook that the magical bonuses are included in the calculation of CR?
The books don't outright say it, and that's the problem. It presents WBL as a guideline, but doesn't say which items PCs are supposed to have, or what happens when a DM radically deviates from the guideline.
The answer is there if you put 2 and 2 together, either via experience (how I figured it out) or via algebra.
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I use the magic-mart only to usher into the real part of the game. Our group doesn't have the luxury of time, so I try to get the ball rolling quick
Generally, I am content with using the city wealth limit rules during an AP. There will be a 75% base chance for items to be available in cities for which they have the appropiate city wealth limit amount. Richer cities will have a much higher chance of having cheaper magic items.
Since after level 9-10 we normally have at least one spellcaster who can scry and teleport, getting to an appropiate location isn't that difficult for the player characters.
But I reject the idea of a single big magic item shop. It'd have to be arcane fortress to protect the incredible wealth accumulated there. I'm much more partial to magic items being family heirlooms and the like and having to be found via Gather Information in a drawn-out process.
But I reject the idea of a single big magic item shop. It'd have to be arcane fortress to protect the incredible wealth accumulated there. I'm much more partial to magic items being family heirlooms and the like and having to be found via Gather Information in a drawn-out process.
Do you actually play this out in game? Or do you summarize the drawn out process part before game or in a quick dialogue?
The whole idea of selling goods for a fixed priced didn't exist before the nineteenth century, because before then goods were not, with a few rare exceptions, manufactured to any kind of standard that you could attach a fixed price too. Cannons and muskets were exceptions to this rule, but they were seldom bought by individuals - usually they were bought in large numbers by governments to arm army and navy.Golarian is not an industrial age world (unlike Eberron I will add, which is industrial, but arcanely so), so you will not get standard goods at a standard price. The values of items in the CRB and other sources are guidelines so far as I am concerned. If the players want items that fall within the "value" of a settlement, it can be assumed that someone there can make the item as a commission. Likewise, it can be assumed there may be a buyer for items up to that value.
The CRB is not Golarion specific. They are rules not guidelines. You as the GM may adjust any rule to fit your version of Golarion, but that is different than saying the authors don't see those prices as rules.
The CRB is not Golarion specific. They are rules not guidelines. You as the GM may adjust any rule to fit your version of Golarion, but that is different than saying the authors don't see those prices as rules.
Ehhh, that's questionable given the deities that are in the CRB. They are Golarion specific and aren't included in the open resources.
The CRB is not Golarion specific. They are rules not guidelines. You as the GM may adjust any rule to fit your version of Golarion, but that is different than saying the authors don't see those prices as rules.Ehhh, that's questionable given the deities that are in the CRB. They are Golarion specific and aren't included in the open resources.
Consider the fact that the core rulebook states that clerics don't have to have a deity while in Golarion they do.
Wow, all this talk has me wondering if I shouldnt have stuck with my Hyborian Campaign where the setting doesnt even entertain such notions. I run a pretty low magic game certainly, I prefer them, but if the very mechanics of Pathfinder REQUIRE this sort of dynamic, Im going to be doing a lot of adjusting along the way.I do like the Hyborian style setting for that. That's how cash motivated adventurers should work. Steal treasure from the ruined temple, deal with the monster/curse, then go back to the bar and drink/gamble/wench until the money runs out. Repeat.
Conan didn't spend his looted gold on better gear. He barely carried gear from one story to the next. Hell, he lost entire armies between adventures.
Exactly, I find that to be a good formulae for fantasy RP in general, keeping the players poor and hungry, enjoying their booty for a time then finding themselves with a broadsword and loincloth again. Its a different animal in this setting though. I think it can be done but obviously is going to take some thought.
But I reject the idea of a single big magic item shop. It'd have to be arcane fortress to protect the incredible wealth accumulated there. I'm much more partial to magic items being family heirlooms and the like and having to be found via Gather Information in a drawn-out process.Do you actually play this out in game? Or do you summarize the drawn out process part before game or in a quick dialogue?
Depends on how quick I want to get the plot moving again, but I favor playing it out.
So am I seriously reading that magic enhancements are such an integral part of the PF dynamic that you cant really play without them? Player skill and ability will falter at some point in the face of the higher threats?
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Yes, are reading it correctly...PARTICULARLY for the melee set. Spellcasters aren't quite as bad.
You can't reach a +40 to hit without magical gear. You can't reach a 40 AC without magical gear. Most classes can't hit +20 on a save without magical gear (and none of them on a weak save, except perhaps the barb using Superstitious).
Meanwhile, Monsters are getting stronger and stronger, with more and more armor, and higher and higher HD and Con bonuses. Such things are escalating faster then the ability of the PC's to keep up. They are DESIGNED with the Christmas tree effect in mind.
Seriously, you can go look at the CR creation guidelines. A monster at x level should be hitting at +y, doing +z damage, and should have a save mod on its spell likes of Spell Level +A, with general saves and defenses in the B C and D range.
Start dropping off the offense and defense numbers for the PC's, and things get out of whack fairly quickly.
A quick example: If, at 10th level, a Melee is expected to have a +3 sword and +4 Str enhancer, that's +5 TH and dmg he doesn't have. That means his primary attack is now at what his iterative was. It means that Power Attack is likely not going to be used, because it lowers the hit chance still further. The combination can easily halve the damage of a melee combatant.
Meanwhile, the monster still has 95 hp to chew through. The fighter is going to have lost probably 5-7 pts of AC from lack of magical armor, rings and amulets, meaning it is hitting with more, if not all, of its attacks, and so doing even more damage to someone who now has fewer HP because he also doesn't have a Con booster.
So, it takes twice as long to kill the monster, and the monster's damage output per round might have doubled.
And let's not even get into what failing saving throws all the time will do to you. A monster at CR 10 will probably be throwing DC 19-22 saves at you. In FOrt, the fighter MIGHT have a +8 without magic. He'll miss his BEST save more then half the time. His weak saves will be at +3 to +5, and he'll miss them 75-80% of the time.
He'll be slaughtered.
Seriously, go run the standard monster CR's against a melee with no magic, and watch him get owned. A Paladin MIGHT be able to live with a Smite, a Ranger against his best FE, and a Barb could endure longer then the others if he goes with defensive rage powers...but they are all going to get owned repeatedly.
==Aelryinth
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I am surprised that there still seems to be a significant number of people who don't seem to realize that magic item use is baked into the rules.
How could it be otherwise? If the game was balanced for a level 20 character to fight with no magic whatsoever, then a magically enhanced character would be massively overpowered. A typical level 20 fighter will have at least a +5 weapon, will have some means to boost strength by at least +4 and will probably have an additional +2 from miscellaneous magic items. That's a +9 compared to the un-enhanced fighter.
Do people seriously think that's not baked into the CR system?
Ok, but from what Im reading then if the difficulty of the encounters are scaled down then there isnt a problem? I see most of the references are to the CR being affected. Take out the CR, or just adjust it, and balance is maintained? Granted, I suppose the really tough monsters will be out of reach of the typical PC, without magical assistance, but perhaps thats not entirely unreasonable. I can see, even in my low magic campaign, that a normal human no matter how awesome, is not going to stand toe to toe with an Arch Demon or something. That even fits with a lot of popular fiction where the REALLY bad guys have to be beaten by something special.
It works. It's just a LOT of work to do it. You effectively make many of the powerful monsters spellcasters only, or the melee guys just buff soaks for the spellcasters, who probably get sick and tired of buffing them.
Would take a lot of work to customize.
It is very telling that the 'Big 6' is extremely melee-oriented. Spellcasters can give up the big 6 and replace them with self buffs or other defenses, and hardly miss a beat. The relative imbalance is telling.
==Aelryinth
Ok, but from what Im reading then if the difficulty of the encounters are scaled down then there isnt a problem? I see most of the references are to the CR being affected. Take out the CR, or just adjust it, and balance is maintained?
Sorta :)
Another problem is the melee characters will be affected more than the casters, in general.
You might be better served by checking into the approximate bonuses the weapons at certain levels would give the melee characters and then grant those as intrinsic bonuses to the melee classes without the weapon being required (so in AD's example above, you'd give the L20 fighter the equivalent of +4 strength and the bonuses of a +5 weapon built into their stats, and so on)
The problem is that it isn't easy to adjust encounters to match low-magic situations. There are more factors than just adjusting a few stats to deal with. While the basic +X AC and attack bonus is probably the most critical thing to deal with, there are a lot more things that magic items do in the game. Boots of speed grant additional attacks, most magic weapons at high levels have additional effects like "bane" or "courageous" or huge damage boosts, there are dozens of items that provide situational boosts and most high level martial characters have items that allow them to avoid environmental difficulties (such as flying to compete with other flying enemies).
The existing CR system attempts (with varying levels of success I'll admit, but with a lot of experience and analysis applied by the dev team) to factor in all of those things.
I used to run low magic campaigns. I had a very similar attitude to many here that it felt wrong for magic to be common. But it was a ton of work to create appropriate challenges and I realized over time that magic items were one of the most important things that allowed martial characters to even begin to bridge the gap with full casters. And I got tired of justifying my decisions to new players or even to existing players who would sometimes argue that specific items were critical to achieving their conceptual goals for their characters.
I finally decided that it just wasn't worth the effort to fight the system and that it really didn't make the game more fun, which was the whole point of the endeavor. So I now pretty much find a way to get the players what they want and just go with it. Sure, I'd prefer a game system that didn't rely on bling, but that's not this game. And this game is the game that my game friends want to play.
I finally decided that it just wasn't worth the effort to fight the system and that it really didn't make the game more fun, which was the whole point of the endeavor. So I now pretty much find a way to get the players what they want and just go with it. Sure, I'd prefer a game system that didn't rely on bling, but that's not this game. And this game is the game that my game friends want to play.
I think its far easier to remove the perceived need to obtain magic items than to remove the items themselves.
These items exist, but we don't have to focus our playstyles around obtaining them. For those who want the appearance of a low-magic world, just have appropriate high-level magic weapons appear in the treasure horde, so the characters aren't forced to locate people to craft them or shops that are selling them. Have that initial +1 longsword the fighter finds at the end of the first adventure level alongside him (it taps into his "inner power", or grows stronger through slaying BBEGs, or something), so it becomes that +5 Courageous longsword of Dragon Slaying by the time he's L20. Have the NPCs that give the players their missions provide them with miscellaneous magic items.
It's possible, with some work, to retain the feel that these are rare and/or unique items while not being left to fight against the combat mechanics just for making that decision.
There's plenty of options available. They all take work (what doesn't? we're all used to a degree of game prep), but some take more work than others. Removing the "magic mart" (or the need for it) is far easier than removing magic items altogether. If the characters have the items they need via other means, there's no need for them to go shopping or for the world as a whole to have them in large numbers.
Matt, for some of us a world where magic is "rare and special" yet the PCs somehow manage to stumble into exactly what they need time after time after time is at least as verisimilitude destructive as being able to buy stuff in a store.
Again, this is a fundamental problem with the game design. Pathfinder rules assume that you will be replacing your magic items with new and more powerful magic items on a routine basis as you level up. It beggars verisimilitude for the PCs to somehow manage to always stumble on that needed new magic item, and then what do they do with their old stuff? They sell it, which means now that "rare and special" magic stuff is in the market, making it less rare and less special.
Again, I used to do this sort of thing until I just got tired of contriving ways to try to explain how that +2 flaming corrosive falchion just happened to be in the troll hoard..
Matt, for some of us a world where magic is "rare and special" yet the PCs somehow manage to stumble into exactly what they need time after time after time is at least as verisimilitude destructive as being able to buy stuff in a store.
True.
I think I'm tempted to go with "you start with a hereditary weapon of your choice, which is going to grow in power alongside you" next campaign, though. The other items will still need providing, but doing the main one (for most) this way might give a nice feel to the game, in that the players will hopefully include their weapon in their character development, and see it as an integral part of that character concept rather than something to be upgraded when convenient.
Matt, heh, I have also played with the idea of "special" magic items that grow with a PC. In my current campaign I have a couple of those items which have increased power "unlocked" as the character advances. At least that way the character doesn't leave a trail of magical junk littering the landscape behind him.
But.... now you have to deal with the WBL issues since that character isn't spending gold to replace that weapon, and therefore can spend that gold on something else.
There's no good solution. There are a lot of things a GM can do to try to create that "rare and special" feel, and I think I have tried most of them. But in the end I only have so much time in the day myself, and I have better things to do for myself and my players than fight against the system to make it "feel" more like what I want.
Heres an odd twist, and bare in mind Im a novice to this system.
What if a number of common magical items, the staples most PCs depend on as described here. (Sorry, I dont know what the big six are) arent magical but merely superior in some way?
Your +2 longsword isnt magical but extremely well made with a razor edge and exquisite balance that makes handling it and slicing through foes easier.
That ring of protection isnt a magic item, rather its a blessed item, empowering the wearer with the blessing of a diety.
A potion isnt magical, but a natural (but perhaps very rare) blend of ingredients?
This approach could drop the perception of the magic being so common yet allow those boosts that apparently are critical to the system.
RGrove, I've done that too. I had a system of escalating masterwork for weapons and armor.
But the problem with that approach is that magical effects are special. Magic weapons aren't "just" +x items, the fact they are magical is addressed in the rules and affects everything from what they can damage, to the saving throws they are granted against effects.
It's the same thing. In a first-order approximation you can define some weapons as +X but not magical, and that seems fine until those second-order synergies in the game rules come into play.
Of course, you can just give out less gold to compensate for that. Especially if each PC has a special item, so the balance between characters stays the same.Matt, heh, I have also played with the idea of "special" magic items that grow with a PC. In my current campaign I have a couple of those items which have increased power "unlocked" as the character advances. At least that way the character doesn't leave a trail of magical junk littering the landscape behind him.
But.... now you have to deal with the WBL issues since that character isn't spending gold to replace that weapon, and therefore can spend that gold on something else.
Yes, you can definitely increase the workload on the GM to make adjustements...
But, most loot situations are not focused on individual characters, so if you decrease loot from an encounter because someone has an "heirloom magic weapon" then that loot is distributed evenly and everyone suffers, or else you have to come up with some way to have only one player accept less loot.
Again, all of these things can be made to "work" more or less, but they all increase the GM's workload in some way. The problem with "everyone having an heirloom magic weapon" is that some classes benefit from that situation more than others. It's hard to come up with a balance that equals out between a martial character's weapon and a spell caster's ring, for example.
Also, you have to work very carefully with the player on these heirloom items to ensure that they are fitting the character's concept. Sometimes that concept changes, and suddenly that "perfect" heirloom weapon no longer matches the player's goals for the character. Then what do you do?
The other thing that can come up is the basic situation where the GM is obviously and deliberately adjusting the rules in very fundamental and power-affecting ways.
Over time as the players recognize that the GM is essentially "rolling their own magic system" some players might feel that they are being disproportionately penalized by the GM's "special rules" even if they aren't actually being penalized. So it creates a potential area of friction between the GM and the players even in cases where the GM is working double-overtime to avoid any such unfairness. I've seen games fall apart because players felt like the GM had adjusted the rules in a manner that was unfair to their characters.
GMs shouldn't be put in that position in the first place.
Of course, you can just give out less gold to compensate for that. Especially if each PC has a special item, so the balance between characters stays the same.Matt, heh, I have also played with the idea of "special" magic items that grow with a PC. In my current campaign I have a couple of those items which have increased power "unlocked" as the character advances. At least that way the character doesn't leave a trail of magical junk littering the landscape behind him.
But.... now you have to deal with the WBL issues since that character isn't spending gold to replace that weapon, and therefore can spend that gold on something else.
Yes, you can definitely increase the workload on the GM to make adjustements...
But, most loot situations are not focused on individual characters, so if you decrease loot from an encounter because someone has an "heirloom magic weapon" then that loot is distributed evenly and everyone suffers, or else you have to come up with some way to have only one player accept less loot.
Again, all of these things can be made to "work" more or less, but they all increase the GM's workload in some way.
As I said, it works better if it's a general campaign rule: Everyone gets an item that grows with them. Less treasure is handed out overall.
It's a little harder to figure out what special item the casters should have, but it can work out.
It can even be a plot point/unifying theme for the game.
Heh, my last edit and your post crossed. There are still complications in this approach. And more work for the GM. I had worked out an heirloom weapon's "growth" for one character. It was a lot of work, I wanted it to be consistent with the story's theme, the player's character goals, the overall "feel" of the campaign, etc. Then the player decided they didn't like their concept and changed it. Suddenly that weapon no longer matched what the player wanted to do. So... back to the drawing board. Or do I force the player to accept what he no longer wanted?
Heres an odd twist, and bare in mind Im a novice to this system.
What if a number of common magical items, the staples most PCs depend on as described here. (Sorry, I dont know what the big six are) arent magical but merely superior in some way?
This should work just fine. It might be weird that dispel magic can dull the super-keen edge of a 'masterwork' +5 sword, but you could always house rule that the bonuses aren't actually magical and are therefore unaffected by things that affect magic. That's what I did when I gave my players innate PC bonuses.
Adamantine Dragon is right that occasionally you'll encounter players who fear even well-thought-out house rules, but they're the exception rather than the rule. If you explain to players why you enforce a house rule and how it benefits them, most of them are happy to adopt it. You are, after all, taking on the burden of DMing a game so that they can play.
PS: The Big Six items are: armor boosters (magical armor, magical shield, bracers of armor), ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, magical weapon, and ability boosters (headband of intellect, belt of giant strength, etc.).
Here's my bottom line on this, and why I no longer go to great lengths to try to "fix" the magic item problems in the game.
The problems are extensive, and the synergies involved with how magic items are woven into the system mean that if the GM wants to "fix" things, it will require extensive adjustments to a fairly significant fraction of the game mechanics. That means some GMs will be much better at it than others, and GMs who misunderstand, under-estimate or simply don't realize the implications of their changes can frequently make things worse, not better.
The work required to do the adjustments is not trivial, and if a GM has a finite amount of time, the time required to deal with the adjustments means less time in game prep or story development.
Even given the time and skill necessary to both do the adjustments and do them "right" there is still no clear evidence that the end result is any more "realistic" or "plausible" than just running the game as written. Most of the suggestions made to make magic items more "rare and special" create their own sorts of verisimilitude problems, and as a result, the actual players spend just as much time metagaming the situations as they would have with no adjustments.
For me personally I finally just decided it wasn't worth the effort. My players have not complained. Frankly, if anything, the result has been the players feel more empowered in pursuing their own character concepts.
cell phone, so editting apologies.
in some way i feel people use rarity as a cruch when what they really want is memorability.
rarity does not increase memoral value... or rather simple rarity does not increase the memoral value of items.
there are in my opinion 3 things that increase memorial effect.
1. special circumstances of the item.
2. special description of the item.
3. special effects of the item.
examples of the above include...
my wizards arcane bond ring. it was a gift to him from his missing fiance he is trying to find.
a grayflame holy, unholy bastard sword made of magically hardened opal with obsidian edging.
the one i think many of my players liked most though were the poisoned cure light wounds potions they found in a kobold cave... dc 13 1d2 str damage duration 5 rounds 2 saves to cure.
making an item memorable takes work on the behalf of the gm. you have to actively call attention to the item and make the pcs want it. this is easier to do if instead of making a... disposable, so to speak, magic item like their first plus 1 weapon special you focus on items that will remain relevant their entire carrer... like their boots of speed, or their ring of feather falling. even something kind of mundane could work for this, like their first spellbook or a lucky whetstone that always seems to stay with them, yes i have before upgraded a fighters whetstone to a luck stone when i realized it was the one item he never lost in 10 levels. to rely on rarity to do it for you is lazy.
i am not say such laziness is wrong... indeed most the time a gm should focus more on the story and character instead of trying to turn each plus 1 weapon into a herculean dmpc.
again this is just my approach, and i am not saying anyone else is wrong for a different approach... but for me investing the time as a gm into making what the player wants as special or as what the npc would see as special is more rewarding over simple rarity.
because when talking to other players it is not the rare magic item that is special or remembered... it is the one that had the story or extra uphf put into it by the gm.
Abraham, that is what I have found to be the case too. I have had situations where a player has not wanted to replace an item that NEEDED to be replaced because the player was emotionally invested in an item because of the way the item had been acquired and how it had been described.
My tenth level druid has a special non-magical wooden quiver that was given to her by her mentor druid. She has had ample opportunity to replace that quiver with a magical quiver, but she never would because the quiver meant so much to her. The GM finally had an NPC recognize the quiver and offer to magically enhance it for her. But the campaign ended before she could get it done. So it is still just a wooden quiver.
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In the group I play in 4 of 6 of us are prepared to run a game, most have been playing DECADES and run the sort of game they like, all different. Pathfinder can be played as a low magic setting, yes it takes more work but it is still less than running a high level game in my experience. I prefer characters to be the star not builds, stats and equipment. That's why I don't like the magic mart.
The "magic mart" is not the problem. The problem is the expectation of magic items being part of a standard build. The "magic mart" is just a particular solution to the problem. You have another "solution" to the problem. Neither solution is "right", both are a reaction to a fundamental game design flaw.
I'd personally rather see the fundamental problem solved than argue about what bandage is better.
But the devs have made it clear they don't intend to fix it.
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cell phone, so editting apologies.in some way i feel people use rarity as a cruch when what they really want is memorability.
rarity does not increase memoral value... or rather simple rarity does not increase the memoral value of items.
In my experience, it's not magic items that are memorable. It's the events - what the players do. Magic items are memorable when you go through a lot to acquire them. Not so much when they are just "gear" bought in a store or even crafted. Ymmv.
As for CR and WBL, can anyone think of any two things that are as... problematic as them? And can anyone think of anything that is more divisive than the magic shop question? I said more, there are planty of things people argue over :)
I don't have magic shops, magic is rarer than standard and it still costs xp to craft most items (excepting one use items like potions / scrolls). It has taken me years to learn to adjust encounters. Essentially re-writing a lot of rules in the process. It is a continuing process and probably refined for my current players. But we like it. Ymmv.
As always in these things there is no one true way. Except what's fun for the given group.
cell phone, so editting apologies.
in some way i feel people use rarity as a cruch when what they really want is memorability.
rarity does not increase memoral value... or rather simple rarity does not increase the memoral value of items.
I understand your point but my desire to keep magical items rare has nothing to do with their memorability. I describe any major item with a bit of detail. My problem with magic items being so numerous and common is that it lessons their percieved quality and the "eww" factor when every character is walking around with magical bling dangling from every appendage. They can all be wonderfully described and have rich back stories but they arent very special when you can pick them up in any town, have to sell them after every adventure, or keep a backpack full of them to pull out as needed.
meh, for me most magic items are much like our personal electronics, or any other tool humanity has been using forever.
just another tool. now somethings are special to me... but not overly so, they are in so much as my keys, ach, cards and phone are useful.
but to be fair if it does not have functionality i have little interest in things...
so i might not even understand a large part of this.
sidenote. some campaigns are just low magic... i do not mean to include those in the above. because even if it is rare a plus 1 whatever is still only a plus 1 whatever.
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If the vast majority of magic items that characters acquire didn't become obsolete within a couple levels, magic items would remain "rare and special" and we wouldn't have people complaining about "magic marts".
People who want to reach some sort of comparison between their games and the vast majority of fantasy literature need to come up with some way for magic items to be meaningful throughout a character's entire career.
I still remember the first D&D campaign I played in. I fell in love with the entire concept of D&D and my characters absolutely lusted after their first magic items. That first +1 sword was rare and magical indeed.
But a few weeks later, when that same character stumbled onto a +2 sword, I had a revelation about one of the game's most fundamental flaws. Suddenly my +1 sword was pointless. My character carried it around in his stuff for a while, but that +2 sword never felt nearly as "rare and special" as that +1 sword had when I first got it. After hauling around a useless +1 sword for months of game time, I eventually sold it off. When that +3 sword showed up, I dumped that +2 sword at the first place I could find that would buy it.
And that's when I realized how "rare and special" magic items truly were in this game.
Heres an odd twist, and bare in mind Im a novice to this system.
What if a number of common magical items, the staples most PCs depend on as described here. (Sorry, I dont know what the big six are) arent magical but merely superior in some way?
Your +2 longsword isnt magical but extremely well made with a razor edge and exquisite balance that makes handling it and slicing through foes easier.
That ring of protection isnt a magic item, rather its a blessed item, empowering the wearer with the blessing of a diety.
A potion isnt magical, but a natural (but perhaps very rare) blend of ingredients?
This approach could drop the perception of the magic being so common yet allow those boosts that apparently are critical to the system.
I'm also not particularly knowledgeable about the system, but I do something similar to this if I'm planning on running higher level Pathfinder adventures (I dont think there's an issue at the lower levels if the PCs just dont have as much magic). I'm mostly averse to the image of the number of different items a mid to high level PF character is expected to wear - that's what screws with my imagining. As such, I often have combination items - armor which combines the effect of several of the 'big six' items, for example. (We dont use WBL and nobody ever takes crafting feats in our games, so there's not the issue of people trying to "fill up" the now unnecessary slots).
I also use the trope of a famous weapon growing more powerful by virtue of being used by a legendary hero - the barbarian's axe can gradually grant him bonuses to his attack rolls, AC, saves, whatever else you need to keep things balanced. It doesnt have to be an item you can actually find in the rulebook - it just has to match what you think the bonuses/abilities should be to keep the maths sensible and to give players the resources they're likely to need.
If the vast majority of magic items that characters acquire didn't become obsolete within a couple levels, magic items would remain "rare and special" and we wouldn't have people complaining about "magic marts".
People who want to reach some sort of comparison between their games and the vast majority of fantasy literature need to come up with some way for magic items to be meaningful throughout a character's entire career.
I still remember the first D&D campaign I played in. I fell in love with the entire concept of D&D and my characters absolutely lusted after their first magic items. That first +1 sword was rare and magical indeed.
But a few weeks later, when that same character stumbled onto a +2 sword, I had a revelation about one of the game's most fundamental flaws. Suddenly my +1 sword was pointless. My character carried it around in his stuff for a while, but that +2 sword never felt nearly as "rare and special" as that +1 sword had when I first got it. After hauling around a useless +1 sword for months of game time, I eventually sold it off. When that +3 sword showed up, I dumped that +2 sword at the first place I could find that would buy it.
And that's when I realized how "rare and special" magic items truly were in this game.
magic items were never rare and special, even in 1E, 1E modules were loaded to the rims with magical equipment.
meh, batman iron man and dr strange never really bothered me...