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Sorry, but the presence of that creature is just plain stupid. If I'm running the module in sanctioned mode that encounter is getting edited. Maybe replace it with an advanced zombie or maybe a ju-ju zombie.
If it's PFS mode I would be damn tempted to fudge the dierolls for all of the attacks. I don't like the idea of handing players a quick, easy win but I HATE the idea of this even worse.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I thought this was the best encounter of the entire module. I made my knowledge roll and when we found out what it was there was a mad scramble to move back and total fear in the party. This encounter was a challenge, had real consequencese and after it was over you felt like you had accomplished something.
Well, to me it sounds like a great encounter for a well-rounded party. Unfortunately, if your party doesn't have K(Religion) like a lot of parties in PFS fail to have, you're going to have a bad time, especially if the town scene was omitted.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Netopalis, my position stands. Changing out Monster X for Monster Y in an encounter is against the rules.
And so is the decision to fudge dice rolls at this point, before even meeting the party. Soluzar isn't trying to save characters who are having a hard time, but rather to merely neuter a major encounter. (It looks like a wight, but I've replaced it with a wight-shaped humanoid that can't hit...) In that case, yeah, I recommend the GM find a different adventure that he can throw at the party, one where he can stand behind every encounter.
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Well, to me it sounds like a great encounter for a well-rounded party. Unfortunately, if your party doesn't have K(Religion) like a lot of parties in PFS fail to have, you're going to have a bad time, especially if the town scene was omitted.
I am not sure what people think the town scene helps with that encounter - I just read through it again - preparing for the weekend - yes you know some adventurers went in and did not come out - but that is about it.
When you run it in a 4 hour slot - you need to make sure the players know there is a small town outside - and there is no urgent time requirements. It is also key to let them know there is a 4 hour limit - so time is less wasted. For the GM it is key to have all the maps already drawn.
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Dhjika, I do not recommend trying to run "Accursed Halls" in a 4-hour slot. It would be like trying to push a party through "Broken Chains" or "From Shore to Sea" in 4 hours; that's not the expectation for running 3-XP modules in Pathfinder Society.
There's a lot of information the PCs will lose. (If they don't impress the priest of Gorum, how will they find out about his offer of half-priced healing to those who have taken up arms and conflict? If they don't spend any time at the Academy, how will they get the hint about the door? If they don't interact with Chief Groolsk, how will they sensibly negotiate with the goblins who are already exploring, or know that some of his people have gone missing in the vicinity of the Unopenable Door?)
Besides that, Thornkeep is a downright terrific town to explore, full of dark secrets and plots to unravel. And perhaps a power struggle to influence.
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Put more basically, the five levels of the Thornkeep dungeon present a sequence of clues that answer a unified set of questions:
1) What happened to the original set of Pathfinder field agents that came here to explore the dungeons?
2) An Azlanti construction, way the hell out here in the River Kingdoms? Who built this? Why?
Running into an enormous idol of a demon lord ought to (a) freak out the party, and (b) start people wondering about that second question. Discovering that the goblins haven't seen the original Pathfinder agents in the Accursed Halls, should get the party wondering about the first question.
Starting the party at the entrance and pushing them to complete 14 encounters in 4 hours requires the GM to skip a lot of important clues. It robs Thornkeep of its major strength, and turns one of Paizo's best products into a context-free set of combats.
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There aren't a lot of parties that will kill that wight in a single round, and someone is going to die if it even so much as touches them. Kinda poses a problem, no? I've managed to TPK a well rounded group with that solitary mob, and again on new characters with a shadow. This was even with everything I could legally do as a GM to try and assist their survival, which admittedly ain't much.
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My players pulled this and the shadow fight at the same time. They made it through just fine.
The monk the last one in the shadow room had a mid 20's AC. But he could not hurt it either.
I filled the wights room seven(it says several) minis. When the PCs enmasse fired at the first mini in sight and woke the others. Then when they heard russtling inside chased in.
I felt the shadow and the fungi were more dangerous.
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There aren't a lot of parties that will kill that wight in a single round, and someone is going to die if it even so much as touches them. Kinda poses a problem, no? I've managed to TPK a well rounded group with that solitary mob, and again on new characters with a shadow. This was even with everything I could legally do as a GM to try and assist their survival, which admittedly ain't much.
Honestly? No.
+4 to hit, is +0 if it is in a position where it cannot stand back up.
+4 to hit, against a "properly" equipped newbie PFS fighter-type, is less than a 50% chance to hit.
+4 to hit, against any arcane caster with Mage Armor up, is probably going to be less than 50% chance to hit, since they also get their Dex mod to AC.
Really, who is it got a good chance to hit? That tank in the front rank? Needs a 18+ to hit.
Heck, I have seen a first level Fighter with a 20 AC. 16+ to hit, only on a 20 if fighting defensively.
Sure, on average, one time in 20 it will suck, but a party that has learned the basics, focus fire, take down the real nasty first, tanglefoot bags are your friend, etc. are not going to have much real difficulty with him.
The crickets' main danger is how many attack rolls they get to make. More rolls means more chances to hit.
Wight gets a single attack, and it is easy for someone to neutralize his first round attack. And he is, in no ways, immune to being tripped, so there are plenty of builds that can make him lose later rounds attacks, too.
Believe me, there are lots of things in PFS that just aren't able to easily handle a reach trip build, among others.
Yes, the wight is a credible threat, but I wouldn't put him as a high risk for most parties. Low to hit bonus, low AC, not so stellar hit points. It will usually take multiple PC attacks to take him down, but taking him down in one round is well within the capabilities of many parties.
Greatsword Barbarian: 2d6+9 damage (16 average)
Rapier Rogue with flanking: 1d6+2+1d6 damage (9 average)
Arcane with damage cantrip: 1d3 damage (2 average)
Pew pew, down. And that is with a couple of non-optimal choices in there, and the Barbarian not Raging, as well. My fauchard Rogue would have done 1d10+6+1d6 damage, for 15 points on average. YMMV.
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We run this fairly regularly at conventions and game days in a five-hour slot. The Accursed Halls is particularly popular with a lot of players because you can run this one module, then rebuild your character and start at level 2. For that reason only, it's not nearly as deadly as it can be for a table of all new players.
Here's why: The repeating players tend to come in with a pet class (druid) or a summoner (planning to rebuild to what they actually want to play). Yeah, it's metagaming, but as long as they aren't using their knowledge of the individual rooms it's not really disruptive.
If no one is doing this I seriously recommend to anyone playing a pregen: "Why don't you pick up a copy of Lini the druid?" What I don't tell them is why I'm recommending her. As Droogami has two hit dice he can actually survive a hit from this (in addition to callously being a meatshield).
But yeah, you really need to emphasize that this isn't a Bonekeep-type scenario. (Once you come out you can't go back in.) And give them some of the background from the town. Among other things, the "red star" notation for the Door of Seven Stars really should be passed on to them. Hmmm... maybe I'll write a briefing for the shared prep drive.
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+4 to hit, against a "properly" equipped newbie PFS fighter-type, is less than a 50% chance to hit.
Not much less.
Really, who is it got a good chance to hit? That tank in the front rank? Needs a 18+ to hit.
1) Not every melee character is a fighter. Rogues for instance without point blank and precise shot tend to get into melee.
2) Not every fighter is a sword and board fighter. That is probably the LEAST common style I've seen. Look at your own group and consider what the chances of hitting are. The greatsword barbarian is probably charging and raging for an AC around 12, the rapier rogue has studded leather and an ac of what 17?
3) Even IF it needs an 16 to hit, that's a 25% chance of death in 1 round, 44 % chance of death in 2 rounds, or a %58 chance of death in three rounds.
4) Not every group knows that thing is instant death if it touches them.
He's very low risk for a TPK but he's a very HIGH risk for getting someone.
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You have to be hit and then fail a dc 14 fort save.
I think this is a great encounter.
You should not rush to fight everything you meet. I think ledford from first steps is more dangerous.
Going into a fight blind and hoping it will not hurt you much is willful ignorance and deserves anything the dice rolls.
Plus since this is level one the time spent on the character is less.
What bothers me from this dungeon is the previous room. A creature that can only be hit by magical weapons for a level 1 and it has a brutal strategy that can trigger two fights at once. A crit touch knocking your strength and having to fight two shadows?
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Sorry, but the presence of that creature is just plain stupid. If I'm running the module in sanctioned mode that encounter is getting edited. Maybe replace it with an advanced zombie or maybe a ju-ju zombie.
If it's PFS mode I would be damn tempted to fudge the dierolls for all of the attacks. I don't like the idea of handing players a quick, easy win but I HATE the idea of this even worse.
Please do not do that. Its not fair for everyone else.
You have to be hit and then fail a dc 14 fort save.
False. The save is to make the negative level permanent 24 hours later. Its take a hit and then die if you are level one. Then rise again in a few rounds as another undead horror.
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+4 to hit, against a "properly" equipped newbie PFS fighter-type, is less than a 50% chance to hit.Not much less.
Really, who is it got a good chance to hit? That tank in the front rank? Needs a 18+ to hit.1) Not every melee character is a fighter. Rogues for instance without point blank and precise shot tend to get into melee.
2) Not every fighter is a sword and board fighter. That is probably the LEAST common style I've seen. Look at your own group and consider what the chances of hitting are. The greatsword barbarian is probably charging and raging for an AC around 12, the rapier rogue has studded leather and an ac of what 17?
3) Even IF it needs an 16 to hit, that's a 25% chance of death in 1 round, 44 % chance of death in 2 rounds, or a %58 chance of death in three rounds.
4) Not every group knows that thing is instant death if it touches them.
He's very low risk for a TPK but he's a very HIGH risk for getting someone.
1) Scale is +5, so AC 15 or 16, without spending feats. Add a buckler or shield, and it goes to 17 to 19. Dodge, goes to 18-20. Fighting Defensively, higher, total defense, even higher.
45% is lower than 50%, and even at first level it is possible to get it down to a 5% chance to hit. And if your Rogue or Ninja is the primary frontliner, you have other issues with party balance, really.
2) That greatsword Barbarian, charging, Raging, is probably going to be doing 2d6+12 or more points of damage on that hit, too. 19 points. Wouldn't take much more damage to take it out.
And the rapier Rogue sh9ould be opening the combat with a thrown dagger against a flat-footed target for 1d4+1+1d6 for an average of 7 points of damage. And not in melee with the target. Or open up with a tanglefoot bag or alchemist's fire.
Opening Volley is probably a decent feat for a Rogue.
3) And that is diferent than, say, fighting Ledford? 1d10+7, better to hit, average damage on one hit will take down most non-martial types, and that crit will take down, maybe even killing, most anything but an anti-Leford build.
Dead is dea. The main drawback to dying to a hit from a wight is that your party will have to deal with another wight shortly.
4) Having a party short on trained Knowledge skills, or Bardic Knowledge, is a bad thing at any level.
No Knowledge means that you can't easily/quickly figure out how to get past something's DR or energy resistances. It can mean wasted spells, like using a Charm spell on an Undead, or Shocking Grasp against a Demon.
I have played in parties with scanty or no KNowledge skills, and it sucks. Really. No one had Knowledge Planes, so we didn't know that opponent X was immune to electricity. That was a pain.
To be honest, though, this goes back to the question of what defines the base DC for the knowledge roll about specific monster types.
Obviously, skeletons, zombies and goblins are DC 5+CR, for core races and common animals.
Ghouls should be the same, although ghasts might be DC 10+CR.
Are wights common enough to be DC 5+CR? I would throw it out that they are. So, too, should shadows be CR 5+CR. They both seem ubiquitous enough to qualify.
Actually, I think I set the Knowledge Religion DC too low for a creature my players had to fight in the game I ran a few days ago. It was a zombie, but a very non-standard base. As a matter of fact, the zombie version actually has a lower CR than the regular monster.
But, again, having Knowledge skills at the table can mean the difference between beating an encounter (or knowing you should run away), and a TPK.
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1) Scale is +5, so AC 15 or 16, without spending feats. Add a buckler or shield, and it goes to 17 to 19. Dodge, goes to 18-20. Fighting Defensively, higher, total defense, even higher.
No.
You do not assume that the character is maximizing against one aspect of an encounter. That is complete, total, and utter malarky.
Who the hell says "Ooo i'm first level i get to take dodge!" or "hey there's a monster, I'll go total defense that will...do... something..."
And if your Rogue or Ninja is the primary frontliner, you have other issues with party balance, really.
There is no aggro mechanic.
There is no reason that the wight has to swing at the turtle, who you have apparently put into the schrodingers box of both dealing damage to this thing and gaining the benefit of total defense. The rogue moves up, attacks... and he's stuck in place for the wights turn.
2) That greatsword Barbarian, charging, Raging, is probably going to be doing 2d6+12 or more points of damage on that hit, too. 19 points. Wouldn't take much more damage to take it out.
IF he has init, and hits. And the mooks aren't in the way of the charge. None of that is guaranteed.
And the rapier Rogue sh9ould be opening the combat with a thrown dagger against a flat-footed target for 1d4+1+1d6
Target is prone, take -4.
And WHY should the rapier rogue be so afraid to get near something?
Opening Volley is probably a decent feat for a Rogue.
And so is dodge and weapon finesse and the other 3 feats you have on a first level rogue so they have a chance of surviving this.
3) And that is diferent than, say, fighting Ledford? 1d10+7, better to hit, average damage on one hit will take down most non-martial types, and that crit will take down, maybe even killing, most anything but an anti-Leford build.
Yes, put DOWN your average adventurer.
There is a VAST difference between down and dead. Down can be solved with a stabilize cantrip or a dc 15 heal check (or in that case "Not in the face not in the face here take my money!") Dead can't be fixed at that level. 17 points of damage should not outright kill an adventurer. It means ledford needs to crit to kill most adventurers, which is a less than 5% chance.
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There aren't a lot of parties that will kill that wight in a single round, and someone is going to die if it even so much as touches them. Kinda poses a problem, no? I've managed to TPK a well rounded group with that solitary mob, and again on new characters with a shadow. This was even with everything I could legally do as a GM to try and assist their survival, which admittedly ain't much.Honestly? No.
+4 to hit, is +0 if it is in a position where it cannot stand back up.
+4 to hit, against a "properly" equipped newbie PFS fighter-type, is less than a 50% chance to hit.
+4 to hit, against any arcane caster with Mage Armor up, is probably going to be less than 50% chance to hit, since they also get their Dex mod to AC.
Really, who is it got a good chance to hit? That tank in the front rank? Needs a 18+ to hit.
Heck, I have seen a first level Fighter with a 20 AC. 16+ to hit, only on a 20 if fighting defensively.
Sure, on average, one time in 20 it will suck, but a party that has learned the basics, focus fire, take down the real nasty first, tanglefoot bags are your friend, etc. are not going to have much real difficulty with him.
The crickets' main danger is how many attack rolls they get to make. More rolls means more chances to hit.
Wight gets a single attack, and it is easy for someone to neutralize his first round attack. And he is, in no ways, immune to being tripped, so there are plenty of builds that can make him lose later rounds attacks, too.
Believe me, there are lots of things in PFS that just aren't able to easily handle a reach trip build, among others.
Yes, the wight is a credible threat, but I wouldn't put him as a high risk for most parties. Low to hit bonus, low AC, not so stellar hit points. It will usually take multiple PC attacks to take him down, but taking him down in one round is well within the capabilities of many parties.
Greatsword Barbarian: 2d6+9 damage (16 average)
Rapier Rogue with flanking: 1d6+2+1d6 damage...
You are greatly overestimating the "average party." Not only are most parties not optimized, they aren't even in the ballpark. The normal group of characters you'll see going through Thornkeep are in mortal danger from the getgo, having rarely managed to milk anything more than herpaderp smash or PEW PEW lasers. Trip builds are also few and far between, let alone reach trip builds.
Saying an encounter COULD be easily shut down does not necessarily mean it will be. It is very possible to build a single character that is capable of soloing the entirety of Thornkeep without ever once being in any danger whatsoever. In fact, it's surprisingly not that difficult to build characters like that. ... But most people either don't know how or simply elect not to do so. Less extreme forms of optimization are normally given the same treatment nowadays.
The "average" party for PFS does not actually perform at what, mechanically speaking, "average" should be in the lion's share of cases. You can expect to see tremendous amounts of characters that simply do not come close to expectations, even at low level where equipment determines about everything (unless you're a spellcaster; it's REALLY hard to make a level 1 spellcaster helpless unless it has like an 8 CON or something).
I will agree with you, however. The conditions you've listed can trivialize that fight, unless of course it lands a hit. That is what people have a problem with. It isn't the overall statistics, but the fact that you're pretty much insta-dead if it even so much as grazes you. >_> Can we at least agree that putting the shadow in was overkill? As much as I enjoy a challenge (I want to get to play Accursed Halls one day, but finding someone to run it is a pain), I would probably ask my players if they'd be okay with me running a different game for them (depending on what they're capable of obviously), if that request came to me again. The fact that those TPKs happened when I ran it is a failure on my part, as a GM, pure and simple. My job is to provide a fair challenge, not wipe the floor with the party using a scenario or module I know they aren't ready for. I'm just glad they were good sports about it.
... Boy it feels weird being on this side of the argument. I'm usually arguing "against" a module or scenario being written off as too hard.
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@BNW: -4 to hit at range because he is prone. But the AC is lower because he is flat-footed. Probably close to a wash.
If you only have a single action, say because it is a surprise round, and you are a rogue/ninja, are you going to charge an unknown adversary, or use a thrown weapon within 30'?
I would rather, as a semi-squishy, keep my distance for now, while still having a chance to do my sneak attack.
And having an 18 Str for a Barbarian is not very far into optimization, nor is using a two-handed weapon.
As to using defensive fighting, that is predicated on the party having someone with a fair-to-moderate Knowledge Religion skill. Having the cleric or wizard tell the party, "That thing drains levels!" is not that far out of the box, is it?
As to being afraid to get near something, the rapier rogue is probably not a fan of being first into combat since he is a semi-squishy.
On Ledford: I have, unfortunately, seen adventurers played who would likely die from a non-crit from Ledford, or have to succeed on a nat 20 only to stabilize after a less-than-instantly-fatal hit. 5 hit points, 7 Con. Ugly.
Also note that bleeding out, IMO&Experience, can be a lot more frustrating than just dying outright.
"I need an 18 to stabilize, and no one is looking in the least to do anything to prevent my PC from bleeding out." Been there, lost a PC to that.
No response on the Shadow, since the mitigating factors for it are related to where it can go in the module.
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Dhjika, I do not recommend trying to run "Accursed Halls" in a 4-hour slot. It would be like trying to push a party through "Broken Chains" or "From Shore to Sea" in 4 hours; that's not the expectation for running 3-XP modules in Pathfinder Society.
I understand there is much of the town that can be interesting - and some of the more important details can be included in the mission briefing - but no one ever tries (In my experience)to negotiate with goblins.
We did it in 3.5 hours (no break), with only two retreads and some calls - and discovered another reason why cure light wounds wands are better than infernal healing wands (and why buying a 3rd level cure light wounds wand can be useful) - though it did breed a few questions (when you use a cure light wounds wand does the unexpended charge stay with the wand, or transfer to your hand - and how many times can a wand be used in a round (use it pass it, use it pass it, use it pass it etc - for people surrounding an undead - and does the pass it maneuver provoke? and when a gnome gets turned into a a shadow does it remain small and get the small bonuses, or get big and not)
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@BNW: -4 to hit at range because he is prone. But the AC is lower because he is flat-footed. Probably close to a wash.
Only a +1 dex, so overall its still a -3 to hit.
And having an 18 Str for a Barbarian is not very far into optimization, nor is using a two-handed weapon.
But in your analysis you have them armored as if they're using sword and board but damaging as if they're going two handed. With the rampaging barbarian its a short fight but with a very high chance of a 1 round kill. With the turtle the per round odds drop, but the number of rounds you're going to have to fight shoot up. If you bottleneck it so that Turtle is the only one the wight can hit Turtle is doing 1d8+4, but the rapier rogue is throwing daggers at -8 (-4 into combat, +4 cover bonus from turtle)
As to using defensive fighting, that is predicated on the party having someone with a fair-to-moderate Knowledge Religion skill. Having the cleric or wizard tell the party, "That thing drains levels!" is not that far out of the box, is it?
Fighter goes full defense. Creature walks around and tags someone else. Someone else dies.
As to being afraid to get near something, the rapier rogue is probably not a fan of being first into combat since he is a semi-squishy.
This makes NO sense.
This isn't wow. the monster does not have to attack the first person to attack it.
On Ledford: I have, unfortunately, seen adventurers played who would likely die from a non-crit from Ledford, or have to succeed on a nat 20 only to stabilize after a less-than-instantly-fatal hit. 5 hit points, 7 Con. Ugly.
And right here is the difference. The question of "How can i survive the wight encounter" is "nothing... you dead." How to survive a critting Ledford is "you got really unlucky, you dead" How to survive a hitting Ledford is "Do not adventure with the constitution score of a mangy gerbil"
A level 1 can not by definition have more levels. If they get level drained they die instantly and there's nothing they can do about that.
Even pushing the bounds of reasonable precautions the wight still has a 25% chance of killing someone. Ledford has less than a 5% chance. Leford is also looking for a challange and deliberately goes for the biggest toughest thing he can find first.
Someone building a character with reasonable precautions will not die to 17 hit points of damage. If you are a squishy have them do some sit ups and invest in con.
Also note that bleeding out, IMO&Experience, can be a lot more frustrating than just dying outright.
The stabilize cantrip is something right up there with alchemists fire that every pathfinder needs.
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Fighter goes full defense. Creature walks around and tags someone else. Someone else dies.Why would it do that without taking a swipe at the nearest source of food first?
Str 12, Dex 12, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
This isn't "braaaaaaiinnns..." This is "Pardon my dear boy, My apologies but I did forget the can opener. Do you suppose your well muscled friend there has any grey poupon per chance?"
The stabilize cantrip is something right up there with alchemists fire that every pathfinder needs.
Well, as most cannot cast that orison, and not all divine casters memorize it, I would suggest getting a vial of bloodblock as soon as possible (found in the UE).
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Fighter goes full defense. Creature walks around and tags someone else. Someone else dies.Why would it do that without taking a swipe at the nearest source of food first?Str 12, Dex 12, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
This isn't "braaaaaaiinnns..." This is "Pardon my dear boy, My apologies but I did forget the can opener. Do you suppose your well muscled friend there has any grey poupon per chance?"
Then he should know walking past the armored hulk who can wreck his day is a bad idea.
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Then he should know walking past the armored hulk who can wreck his day is a bad idea.Fighter goes full defense. Creature walks around and tags someone else. Someone else dies.Why would it do that without taking a swipe at the nearest source of food first?Str 12, Dex 12, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
This isn't "braaaaaaiinnns..." This is "Pardon my dear boy, My apologies but I did forget the can opener. Do you suppose your well muscled friend there has any grey poupon per chance?"
He should also know that someone using total defense can't take attacks of opportunity. That is why that fighter should fight defensively instead... and use combat expertise. Aid another on his defense from a helpful ally would be an awesome idea too.
I would say don't play this scenario with a melee character unless it's either:
A) Their first scenario so it's no lost chronicles
B) They are level 2
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Not to mention the penalties being taken to their to hit as a result of these various defensive measures. They are useful, but they don't come free. And even then, the wight will probably manage to hit them once before it goes down if we're assuming a sword and board type has bottle necked it.
On top of that, the wight isn't exactly an "easy" target once it actually engages. They have what, about a 50/50 chance of hitting it assuming high strength and 1 BAB? All it would take is a couple misses from the wrong people for a squishy (or even someone in decent armor) to wind up flat. Obviously the raging barbarian would have a much better chance to land a hit, but the wight would also have a far better chance to hit HIM.
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Seems to me, as a brand new player, I'd rather learn in my first adventure:
-That I need a way to fight at range
-That I need a way to handle incorporeal creatures
-That I need a way to deal with darkness
-That I need a way to deal with swarms
-That I don't have to fight my way through every encounter
-That sometimes discretion is the better part of valor
Better to learn some of these lessons the hard way with a brand new level one than that level three I've put 30 hours into playing. Seems to me some players get off easy and develop some bad habits that come back to haunt them later in their careers.
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There are middle grounds. An incorporeal? Really? And eventually we dealt with 2 of them, because we were fighting with 2 wands of cure light wounds that luckily our 2 semi-experienced characters had; and the GM was nice and attacked the pet with the wight (who also spawns more wights if things die from negative levels in d4 rounds).
This is a level 1 character eater; though I guess metagaming you can make it work. That 2nd level in 1 module is hugely tempting; though it was a shame the new shadow already had 2 modules under his belt.
EDIT: And yes, it should walk past the tin can given half a chance. He and his 5 new friends can take that guy down later :).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You have to be hit and then fail a dc 14 fort save.
Nope, the fort save is to keep the negative level from "sticking" 24 hours later. There is no save to prevent taking it in the first place. Energy drain is automatic on a successful hit, which spells insta-death for a 1st-level PC.
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The monsters are CR 3; they clearly have no place in a level 1 module, period.
CR3 is APL+2 for a party of level 1s which is rated as "hard" encounter, but far from "epic". Also note that this is not a level 1 module, it is a level 1-2 module (expected APL 1.5ish)
First-time characters don't HAVE wands; they don't have magic weapons; they don't have Lesser Restoration scrolls; they don't have alchemist's fire, or holy water, or tanglefoot bags. And throwing monsters at them that have the effect "one touch = instant death, no save" is not instructive of anything, except "don't play this insane game."
I'm sorry, but I disagree. MANY level 1 brand new characters have alchemist's fire, acid (more common), or holy water. Many have scrolls of CLW, which is an alternative to wands.
This adventure also has a town right outside, so people can go back and rest pretty much anytime.
Also, running a way is always an option. Like when someone gets the Religion check to know what a Wight is and what it can do.
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I'm sorry, but I disagree. MANY level 1 brand new characters have alchemist's fire, acid (more common), or holy water. Many have scrolls of CLW, which is an alternative to wands.This adventure also has a town right outside, so people can go back and rest pretty much anytime.
Also, running a way is always an option. Like when someone gets the Religion check to know what a Wight is and what it can do.
Exactly - there is no speed imperative in this game - if they wanted to they could exit every couple rooms - and indeed my last running of it they exited every time they had ability damage (poison, touch, etc). One time when I played it, the GM made it sound like we had to do it in one pass - the reasoning after the fact was to give us all a "challenge."
Regarding the religion check on the wight - would that be a 5+CR roll or a 10+CR roll [i notice quite a few people don't have knowledge: religion - certainly none of my clerics do as most only get 1 or 2 skill points a level - I usually go for spellcraft before it (except the mystic theurge-in-training one)) - the zombies I usually go with a 5+ - but I find most people without the skill don't try the check.
There are a lot of awful things at CR 3 - one of which I have heard of appearing in other games at low tier 1-2 - gelatinous cubes for example (DC20 fort save or paralyzed for a minute or so) - but a wasp swarm is also very nasty to 1st level chracters.
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Also, running a way is always an option. Like when someone gets the Religion check to know what a Wight is and what it can do.
If everyone wins init and has speed 30, running away is an option. Otherwise you're counting deaths.
And while I agree CR:3 is reasonable for 1st levels, at that point you have to be careful. No x3 crits; no incoporeals (many people would have to metagame to buy a scroll of magic weapon early, and you have to have 1 module under your belt AND have chosen not to get a wand of infernal healing to have the CLW wand); and for heaven's sakes, NO LEVEL 1 (or even level 2) level drainers.
Once you're about 4-5 you can take off kiddy gloves, but with the lowbies you have to be very, very careful to not make it very likely they will die on their first out.
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(intending to do all five at the same CON with the same PCs... I think you need to start as 2nd to be the correct level later).
Going into "Sanctum of a Lost Age" as a small party of 6th level PCs is insane. There are multiple CR 10-11 encounters there. (And if I'm calculating correctly, a party that isn't paying attention in one room can suddenly find itself facing a CR 13 encounter.)
It's also one of the longer levels. (I saw the party at this past year's Kubla Con dealing with Sanctum. They had a blast, but it took them almost 12 hours.)
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Once you're about 4-5 you can take off kiddy gloves, but with the lowbies you have to be very, very careful to not make it very likely they will die on their first out.
I would agree if this was a PFS scenario, but it's not. It's a module that was just adapted. Module writers don't always have to make the same considerations.
Also, I know of x3 crit baddies in SEVERAL PFS level 1-2 adventures :P And I know of a single x4 one.
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Also, I know of x3 crit baddies in SEVERAL PFS level 1-2 adventures :P And I know of a single x4 one.
Yeah, but those require rolling a 20, followed by a second d20 roll. A wight needs only a single d20 roll, and that only needs to be like a 12 or so. So basically a wight against a 1st-level PC is like if Ledford was assumed to get a natural 20 on every attack and the only actual d20 roll needed was the confirmation roll.
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Exactly. A wight vs. level 1 PCs is never appropriate and cannot be justified. Factor in the consideration that "level 1" often means "brand-new player who's never tried Pathfinder before," and it becomes even more inexcusable. The writer of this module should be flogged.
Once again, this is NOT an adventure written for PFS. In a homegame setting, the GM can pick and choose to edit if he thinks the PCs cant handle something. By sanctioning this in PFS, we dont have that luxury. But, we kept clamoring to sanction more and more content, so there you have it. Emerald Spire is coming this summer, btw.
Richard Baker, the author, is actually a very experienced RPG writer. Honestly, the best course of action is to leave a review of the module at the product page. End of the day, the CR system is not perfect. If you toss one of these guys to a party of 4 level 4 characters, they will prolly all die. Even though it is CR appropriate.
Finally, this is not the only sanctioned module that is "hard". Crypt of the Everflame also has stories of many deaths. Sanctioned 1-2 modules may not be for you in PFS play then.
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Once again, this is NOT an adventure written for PFS. In a homegame setting, the GM can pick and choose to edit if he thinks the PCs cant handle something. By sanctioning this in PFS, we dont have that luxury. But, we kept clamoring to sanction more and more content, so there you have it. Emerald Spire is coming this summer, btw.
However, it could have been sanctioned for levels 2-3 rather than 1-2, preventing 1st level characters from having this run in with a wight.
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Once again, this is NOT an adventure written for PFS. In a homegame setting, the GM can pick and choose to edit if he thinks the PCs cant handle something. By sanctioning this in PFS, we dont have that luxury. But, we kept clamoring to sanction more and more content, so there you have it. Emerald Spire is coming this summer, btw.However, it could have been sanctioned for levels 2-3 rather than 1-2, preventing 1st level characters from having this run in with a wight.
I wouldn't have a problem with that! But my guess is the clamoring for more replayable level 1 content was a factor. Also, Im pretty sure level 3's would destroy this dungeon.
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Once you're about 4-5 you can take off kiddy gloves, but with the lowbies you have to be very, very careful to not make it very likely they will die on their first out.I would agree if this was a PFS scenario, but it's not. It's a module that was just adapted. Module writers don't always have to make the same considerations.
Also, I know of x3 crit baddies in SEVERAL PFS level 1-2 adventures :P And I know of a single x4 one.
Best death ever: Crit to death by a kobold with a negative strength modifier because it's wielding a pickaxe.