It's Ezren's turn. He plays a Detect Magic spell. I believe three effects need to be resolved:
1) Choose whether to recharge the Detect Magic, and make a check to see if the recharge is successful
2) Look at the top card of Ezren's deck and choose whether to draw it if it's an arcane spell
3) Look at the top card of the current location and decide whether to enconter it.
Can Ezren choose the order for resolving these or do they have to be done in a specific order (and, if so, which order)? I've gone through the revised rulebook and FAQ but I just can't see this spelled out anywhere...
#3 comes first.
#1 comes second.
#2 doesn't come at all, because you haven't explored.
See the Things to Keep in Mind section of the FAQ, where it says: Detect Magic doesn’t use the word “explore,” so you can play it at times when you can’t explore.
Mike Selinker wrote: #3 comes first.
#1 comes second.
#2 doesn't come at all, because you haven't explored.
See the Things to Keep in Mind section of the FAQ, where it says: Detect Magic doesn’t use the word “explore,” so you can play it at times when you can’t explore.
I thought #2 would by activated by Ezren's power:
"After you play a spell with the Arcane trait, you may examine the top card of your deck; if it’s a spell, you may put it in your hand."
The OP had it worded slightly wrong (I'm assuming Ezren's power doesn't care if it is an arccane spell, just any spell, though odds are strong that is the only kind of spell he will have) which makes it sounded similar to Ezren's power to explore again. But, does the power to draw a card only kick in if he explores?
I think Mike may be playtesting a Ezren variant for the new Skulls & Shackles Adventure Path because his answer (concerning #2) is incorrect for the existing Ezren :)
Back to the question. The FAQ tells us that #1 occurs after #3 so that seems clear. I would assume that #2 comes after #1 (and #3) due to the "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" FAQ guideline.
So, #3, #1, #2?
xris wrote: I think Mike may be playtesting a Ezren variant for the new Skulls & Shackles Adventure Path because his answer (concerning #2) is incorrect for the existing Ezren :)
Back to the question. The FAQ tells us that #1 occurs after #3 so that seems clear. I would assume that #2 comes after #1 (and #3) due to the "Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else" FAQ guideline.
So, #3, #1, #2?
That would be the sequence I would play it in as well.
I'm slightly less certain of, if having decided to encounter the top card in the location deck, when I would try to attempt the check to recharge Detect Magic. I know the FAQ says finish the check the spell effects first before attempting to recharge a spell, but if I decide to encounter the top card of the location deck, is Detect Magic really influencing a check? I don't think so.
So, assuming I encounter the top card (lets say its Acid Arrow) and that I want to play a spell to effect my check to acquire it (lets say Guidance) and that all my checks succeed, put these in the proper order for Ezren (this is how I think they should go):
A. Play Detect Magic
B. Attempt check to recharge Detect Magic. Check succeeds, recharge Detect Magic.
B. Examine top card of location deck, its Acid Arrow, Ezren decides to encounter it.
D. Play Guidance to effect check to acquire Acid Arrow.
E. Attempt to check to acquire Acid Arrow. Check succeeds, add Acid Arrow to hand.
F. Attempt check to recharge Guidance. Check succeeds, recharge Guidance.
G. Examine next card in Ezren's deck. It is Lightning Touch. So he decides to add it to his hand.
Now, based on what Mike said.. (I think he just mixed up Ezren's powers. The man is basically working 3 jobs after all: Designing Skull & Shackles, speeding up development to choose and release 3rd AP in February 2015, and spending countless hours on this forum helping to answer any possible questions that arise.)
Anyway, based on what Mike said, I don't think Ezren's power to explore again kicks in.
"If you acquire a card with the Magic trait during an exploration, you may immediately explore again."
Because in this case, Ezren didn't explore. He played a spell and he acquired something from the location deck due to playing spell, but it wasn't due to an exploration. So he does NOT get to explore again via his power.
But I've only played Ezren through the Perils of the Lost Coast (and I often forget to check my deck after playing a spell), so I'm no expert on this one. But I am having lots of fun playing, even when I do discover I've done something wrong.
Unless I am very confused, recharging Guidance requires the Divine skill, so Ezren wouldn't be able to recharge it...
As a related side note, I always place a card that I'm playing right above my deck, so that if I get distracted with, say, the results of a successful roll, I can look down and see it and remember to roll to recharge. It may be simpler to attempt to recharge right away, but I don't think that's technically the proper order... let me go look at the updated example from play, I would assume that would be a good guidance. :)
In the example from play, it goes
1- Play Acid Arrow (this is mid exploration, fighting a skeleton henchman)
2- Roll for Acid Arrow (fellow player used an item to add a bonus, but not relevant to this question)
3- Check top card of deck, it's Levitate, acquire it.
4- Roll to recharge.
Making this relevant to the original post, it's definitely 3 before 1. Honestly, it's 3, 2, 1, but I don't think it would make a difference to do 3, 1, 2, like xris said. Seems simpler. Also, I'm really tired, and may re-look at this after some sleep :)
It's important to resolve playing a card before trying to recharge it; in the example with acid arrow, if you roll poorly and take damage, you may chose to discard an Acolyte that you would have otherwise used to help you recharge your spell. With Detect Magic, I'm pretty sure you could acquire a blessing (or maybe a magic item I'm not familiar with) that could help your check to recharge.... though if you need a blessing to recharge detect magic, you're very unlucky and very early in the game, but I digress.
Side note: Hawkmoon269, I'm 99 % sure you're correct, and that the point Mike was going for was that Detect Magic is not an exploration, it's a different (rather special) type of encounter, so Ezren's ability that triggers off acquiring certain cards during an exploration would not go off.
(Edited for typos)
Hawkmoon269 wrote: Now, based on what Mike said.. (I think he just mixed up Ezren's powers. The man is basically working 3 jobs after all: Designing Skull & Shackles, speeding up development to choose and release 3rd AP in February 2015, and spending countless hours on this forum helping to answer any possible questions that arise.) Whoops. Yeah, I completely misread the question. I thought it was about the explore-after-you-find-a-Magic-boon power.
Anyway, yeah, #3 comes first. The example suggests that #2 should come before #1. It says "After you play a spell," and the recharge power is dependent on the process of playing a spell being complete. But at the moment, I agree that it is unclear which has to come first. We will discuss and see if we think a rules clarification is in order.
My fourth job on Pathfinder is overseeing our massive marathon at BoardGameGeek.Con this week. That's a lot to keep track of. But the positive energy around the game down here is keeping us focused.
Mike
Now you see, I'm slightly confused. The way I have always played it, when I go to play a spell, instead of just discarding it, I roll the recharge right there when I play it. That's only because I go RAW, which states that to play the card, you discard it. Instead of discarding it, I roll the check to recharge. in short.
1)Ezren encounters Skeleton
2)recharge Acid Arrow: 1d12 + 2 ⇒ (3) + 2 = 5(can't remember if 5 pass or fail, so we will say pass)
3)Recharge Acid Arrow
4)Combat check: 1d12 + 2d4 + 2 ⇒ (9) + (2, 4) + 2 = 17
5)Place Skeleton in the box and continue.
If step 2 was a fail, then it would just be discarded in step 3.
If I am doing this wrong, please let me know.
dfsearles - yes, that is how I interpreted it, because thet's what the card says (plus "finish a thing before starting another thing"). But that's not how the example in the rules is done, hence my question.
The only problem with doing that setup is the spells that go for the entire turn. You are supposed to put them aside from your hand until that current turn is over, then recharge it. It might confuse some people if you do it your way. Other than that, the way you're doing it is perfectly fine.
There is another case where it makes a difference: Cure.
You resolve the spell and then check for recharge because that way, the Cure is always either discarded or at the bottom of the draw pile. If you checked for recharge first, it would either:
a) (if you failed) - potentially become one of the cards that gets cured back into the draw and reshuffled.
b) (if you passed recharge) - put into draw at the bottom and then shuffled in with all the cured cards.
Bidmaron wrote: There is another case where it makes a difference: Cure.
You resolve the spell and then check for recharge because that way, the Cure is always either discarded or at the bottom of the draw pile. If you checked for recharge first, it would either:
a) (if you failed) - potentially become one of the cards that gets cured back into the draw and reshuffled.
b) (if you passed recharge) - put into draw at the bottom and then shuffled in with all the cured cards.
Read the Cure spell again; you don't discard the card until after you've shuffled the cards back into your character deck. Display, shuffle, discard; then recharge.
That's the point. On Cure, they specified it, but on all recharges, they take place after whatever it is the spell effects. Sorry to have been so confusing, I guess, but I think we are agreeing. I was pointing out that Cure done the way people were saying would change what happened to the Cure card.
My point is, you recharge the card WHEN you discard because recharging IS the discard action.
Strength is a good example of this as it gives you a +3 to your strength roll until the end of your turn, but you discard it when you play. For example, you start your turn by playing strength, then explore and acid arrow a skeleton, then cure yourself. By Kysmatmans example, strength would be placed to the side until after your turn is over, thus never getting a chance to get shuffled back in, when by RAW it should have been by being discarded to activate the spell.
dfsearles wrote: My point is, you recharge the card WHEN you discard because recharging IS the discard action.
Strength is a good example of this as it gives you a +3 to your strength roll until the end of your turn, but you discard it when you play. For example, you start your turn by playing strength, then explore and acid arrow a skeleton, then cure yourself. By Kysmatmans example, strength would be placed to the side until after your turn is over, thus never getting a chance to get shuffled back in, when by RAW it should have been by being discarded to activate the spell.
That is no longer the case. it has been Faq'd now.
Quote: I've played a spell that has an effect for the entire turn, but I keep forgetting the effect because the card is no longer in front of me. Can you help?
Yes, we can!
Resolution: Change the following spells as follows:
<snip>
•Strength: "Display this card and select a character. For the rest of the turn, add 3 to that character's checks that use her Strength die. Discard this card at the end of the turn." (This card also appears in the Character Add-On Deck.)
Did they do this for all the cards like this?
dfsearles wrote: Did they do this for all the cards like this? They did it for Glibness and Strength, they also did something similar with Mirror Image and Speed (that is, add the term "Display").
It's all detailed in the FAQ.
I've just noticed the section in the (new) rules where it explains at what point you recharge a card. It's only in the November 12th 2013 PDF version of the rulebook, on page 15 and 16.
Quote: Recharge
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able
to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the
card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in
your deck, in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time.
A better description that involves Ezren and use of his special power is detailed later in the rules on page 20, Example of Play. Trouble is, it's part of an example! Examples are not exactly the best place to put rules.
Quote: To defeat his Ancient Skeleton, Ezren must attempt a combat check. Edward opts to
play the Acid Arrow spell he just acquired, which lets him roll his Arcane die—d12+2—
plus 2d4 for his check. The difficulty of the check is 8, and Edward wants to make
absolutely sure he’ll succeed, so Monica plays her Blast Stone to add another 1d4 to
the check. Edward assembles 1d12 and 3d4, and rolls a total value of 12, then adds 2
(the “+2” from his Arcane skill) to get a result of 14. The Ancient Skeleton is defeated!
His playing the Acid Arrow spell triggers another of Ezren’s powers: after he plays a
spell with the Arcane trait, he can examine the top card of his character deck, and if
it’s a spell, he can add it to his hand. The top card is the spell Levitate, so he puts it in
his hand.
Now Edward can try to recharge his Acid Arrow. The card says he must succeed at an
Arcane 6 check, so he rolls d12+2 and gets a 9. He puts the card at the bottom of his deck.
While the example isn't exactly the question asked in the OP, is does involve Ezren playing an Arcane Spell, activating his special power (examine the top card of his deck) and then recharging the original spell played.
This does result in the order being defined as #3, #2, #1 just as Mike stated.
While I have no issue with this ruling, I do find it makes nonsense one of the new guidelines detailed on page 22 of the new rules.
Quote: Finish One Thing Before You Start Something Else.
You do many things in a specific order, and you need to finish doing
each thing before you do the next thing.
Don’t start a new process until you’ve finished the last one.
The problem is that a "process" isn't defined anywhere and seems to be rather subjective. For me, if I'm in the middle of playing / recharging a spell, suddenly switching to activating a characters special power (in this case, Ezren's ability to look at the top card of his deck) is definitely starting a new process.
To be fair, that section is good for the main steps during a turn (Advance the Blessing Deck, Give a Card, Move, etc.) but it doesn't seem to apply to the intricacies of attempting a check. My impression (from comments from Mike and Vic) that there are no "interrupts" but the example above does seem to me that Ezren's special power does interrupt the sequence of a card being recharged after it has been played. I can't find any further details in the rules on how the timing of such interrupts are meant to be handled.
dfsearles, I know it's easier to recharge most spells (not getting into exceptions like cure and strength, they have already been covered above) the instant you play them, and for some spells, it works fine. But going back to Acid Arrow, or any other combat example, you're already in the middle of the fight, and the results of the fight might affect what cards you have left to use to influence your recharge check (like Acolyte).
How likely is it to really matter? Not much, and if you're doing it out of order, it probably really won't hurt much. But if you're a stickler for the rules (I am, personally, unless I really hate the rule.. death, cough, cough...), then you'll have to adjust. If you don't particularly care, cool, rock on.
I'm thinking, to go way back to the original question, both the "look at top of Ezren's deck for spell" and "chose to recharge & make roll to recharge Detect Magic" would fall under the part from the rulebook where there are two things that could both happen in the same order, so the active player chooses the order (that part does exist, right? I have been reading a few games rules recently, that could be a crossed wire...). I could be wrong, it could be more precise than that and I'm missing something, I'll be keeping a close on on this thread for more details.
Also, thanks to xris for finding the part in the PDF about recharging cards, I knew it felt right that I was doing that, but I forgot they added it officially to the updated rulebook :).
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