So yesterday after I got my hands on the playtest document I ran a playtest with a couple friends online.
What we did is took 3 of the new classes and took what we felt were close analogues in the existing game at level 6 and Level 12. Each level had 2 encounters run in succession. I ran a basic npc cleric to round out the party, nothing particularly special, mostly healing, and support.
Rules: 15 point buy Humans, no traits, wbl gear with no more then 1/3 of the total spent on offensive items or defensive items.
Player one:
Human Blood Rager - Draconic Bloodline
Human Barbarian -
Rage powers were
Beast Totem Lesser
Animal Fury
Dragon Totem
Dragon Totem Resiliance
Dragon Totem Wings
(Extra Rage power Feat) Beast Totem)
Beast Totem Greater.
Player 2
Human Hunter - Big Cat Companion
Wild shape focused Druid - Big Cat Companion
Player 3
Swashbuckler - Dervish dancer with scimitar
Freehand Fighter - Dervish dancer with scimitar
Initial Impressions/Questions
Player 1
We couldnt figure out what the blood ragers caster level was supposed to be, so we assumed it was like the paladin/ranger at level-3. In addition, the player was curious about going into Dragon Disciple but since we werent sure how that would interact with their blood of the dragons ability, or the dragon bite if at all, he just went straight bloodrager.
In addition, we were not sure if some of the blood raging powers were exclusively when blood raging or if they were all the time. Some powers specifically said 'when entering a blood rage' or something of the sort. Others just said 'you gain'. It wasnt clear to us at least if the claws/resistances were an all the time ability, or if they only appeared when bloodraging.
The player also realized that there is almost no real benefit to having a good charisma for a blood rager. You need to have enough to be able to cast your spells, but CON is obviously more important, and your save dcs will already be low (low spell levels) so your casting will be mostly no save or buff spells. The blood rager is sort of in the same boat as the 3.5 paladin was, Melee combatant (needs strength), but its class abilities run on one stat (con for blood rager, charisma for the paladin) and its casting on another (charisma for the bloodrager and wisdom for the paladin). We think this ought to be looked at. It makes for a very mad class, particularly since the bloodrager isnt wearing heavy armor and needs some dex also to fill out defenses.
Player 2
No real questions here, but the player kept taking time to figure out what teamwork feats to take, untill he realized it was just a standard action to change, which he thought was very cool.
Player 3
A little disappointed that though its not strickly necessary, scimitar swashbucklers will likely become the norm unless paizo includes a dervish dance analogue for other onehanded/light piercing weapons. My group has a homebrewed feat 'fencers dance' that works with any onehanded or light piercing weapon but we decided not to use that since this is a playtest.
Also, why on earth to swashbucklers get weapon finese at 2nd level instead of 1st? It is essentially a required feat for their style of fighting, it needs to be at 1st level or there needs to be some kind of compensation if you already have the feat.
So on to the encounters:
Party level 6:
I used some goblin npcs created by perram from the Know Direction Podcast for these encounters. Perrams Goblins
1st Encounter
2 GOblin Slicers (under geared Goblin Rogue-bandit 5)
Goblin Brute(under geared Goblin Barbarian 5)
Goblin Boomer (Under Geared Goblin Alchemist-Grenadier 5)
CR 7
We played this encounter as an abush on a relatively open road. However the Hunter made the perception check to notice the goblins sneaking up and spoiled the surprise. Battle ensued with everyone unbuffed.
The swashbuckler was the star of the show here, he won initiative, and (literally) leapt into action, spending a panache point to make a ludicrously lucky 'daring do' leap (rolled 4 6's in a row) over a ditch on the side of the road that landed him behind the goblins. He then scored a crit on one of the goblin rogues, nearly dropping him in one shot (getting his panache point back). He parried 2 attacks (combat reflexes) and reposted on another, dropping one rogue. The blood rager spent a round buffing and the moving towards the fight and then tore apart the goblin brute with 2 rounds of heavy raging claw attacks.
The hunter tried an entangle spell, that didnt effect anything, and then spent a pair of turns trying to do amusing but not particularly effective things with teamwork feats and his cat.
In the 'normal pc' encounter, things went a little differently. The druid won initiative there, wildshaping on his first turn while his can moved up and clawed at the goblin brute. The barbarian similarly went to town on the brute, but took him down a turn faster (extra attack from animal fury made a significant difference). The free hand fighter attempted a similar leap over the 10ft ditch, but just barely made the roll, and didnt do anything particularly interesting, hitting with a pair of attacks while the druid and barbarian did most of the actual killing.
2nd Encounter
2 Goblin Slicers
2 Elite Goblin Dogs(Advanced Goblin dog)
1 Goblin Brute
CR 8
This encounter happened in a cave with both sides expecting eachother. The blood rager was enlarged, the hunter had magic fang his pet and barskin on himself, and activated the bull animal focus just before the encounter started. The swash buckler was remarkably still at full panache despite having spent several in the last encounter. And opened up the encounter with yet another crit, this time having spent a point of pinache to double his precise strike damage, goodbuy to one goblin slicer in the opening round.
When buffed the blood rager was significantly more potent, taking down the other goblin slicer (who had moved up to him) with a single full attack. Turns out rage, plus enlarge person is a potent combination.
The hunter took quite a beating at the hands of the brute and one of the goblin dogs, needing to be saved by the NPC cleric, but this time his teamwork feats paid off a bit more managing to trip and then precise strike the goblin brute. Turns out that +1d6 damage means alot more on a big cat then something making a single attack. Overall star of the show in this encounter was the blood rager and his enlarged claws of death
In the normal encounter the wildshaped druid and his buffed cat were definately the most effective. The druid literally tore through the goblin dogs and his cat killed one of the slicers. It was clear that of the 'normal' party, when there was an opportunity to buff, the druid was tops. The free hand fighter got in a few pot shots but was overall not particularly interesting. He did try and failed to disarm one of the rogues, but he found his best option was to just attack most of the time. The barbarian, raged, clawed and bit. Not particularly creative, but very effective.
In the normal
Party Level 12
1st ENcounter
2 Elder Earth Elementals
CR 13
At the higher levels the players had alot more options. IN particular, both the blood rager and the barbarian could fly when raging. A big help where mobility is concerned, and it allowed them to easily get around 2 big open pits in the middle of the cave this encounter was taking place in. They could have gone around, but the option to fly made a big difference.
The swashbuckler was far less effective in this fight, with his precise strike not functioning on the hunks of rock. And I was reminded something I already knew. Pounce is really really good. The barbarian, druid, and the two cats were far more effective then anyone else in this encounter, as the elementals were spread out, and as we all know you generally want to be full attacking if you can be. The dragon disciple felt a bit short changed and wished he could access the rage powers somehow (such as the extra rage power feat) but didnt qualify so he didnt have pounce, and had one less attack then his barbarian counterpart. Though he noted, he could have been a toothy half orc to overcome at least part of that problem.
Second Encounter
2 Ice Devils
CR 15
This encounter also had an opportunity to buff before hand. The druid especially made use of this and the cleric took the time to align his and the swashbucklers weapons to get past the devils damage reduction.
This was a hard encounter, both the swashbuckler and the hunter got knocked unconcious by the full attacks of the ice devils. Sometimes winning initiative isnt a good thing. Again though pounce and the abilty to fly were important, as the ice devils were rather mobile, using ice storms, and wall of ice to keep both parties from closing in on them.
Again in this case the bloodrager was itching for the ability to pounce and to get a 3rd (or fourth) attack somehow. The 2 claws at level 12 even with enlarge person just wasnt cutting it. Though catching both ice devils in a electrical breath weapon was apparently very satisfying.
Interestingly it was the hunters companion that made the final blow, protecting his downed master as the cleric struggled to keep him alive.
In the normal encounter, the animal growthed stoneskined, evil outsider bane magic(did you know greater magic fan can give enhancement bonuses? I Didnt) fanged pouncing druid and cat companion proved to be pretty devastating to the ice devils. Everyone else was sort of cleanup after a pair of full attack from those two.
Final Impressions:
Draconic Bloodrager: Very cool, but as you get to higher levels, it seems it starts to fall short against the beast totem barbarians, or even a normal barbirian full attacking with a 2handed weapon. Just the 2 claw attacks was kind of limited, and the lack of access to rage powers is unfortunate. We all also really think something should be done about the multi ability score dependency issuers like paizo did for the paladin in the initial switch. We were thinking maybe rage rounds being based on charisma instead of con. Either way, at the very least the blood rager ought to have more benefit to a high charisma then he does.
Hunter: Fun but quirky. I think this is a character you would have to get used to. The whole teamwork with your animal buddy thing is really interesting, and something that has sort of been lacking (or required alot of investment) in the other 'pet' classes. One thing that did come up though, is tricks/training. Even if the animal companion has the teamwork feat, does he know how to use it? There is often debate as to how much control a pc has over an animal level intelligence companion. Would it know how to get into position for all those different team work feats, or would the hunter have to be the one to do all himself?
I dont think the hunter performed as well as the druid, but given the druid is among the most powerful classes in the game, that probably isnt a bad thing, but it is worth noting.
Swashbuckler: All kinds of awesome. We really like it, though we desperately wish there was an option, feat, something to make a rapier (or other similar weapon) as good as a dervish dance scimitar. PLEASE do something there.
Also the swashbuckler is likely to have a ready supply of panache, more when compared to a gunslingers grit. Higher crit ranges (particularly with improve crit or a keen weapon) and no need to spend panache to clear jams, they have a fairly abundant supply, confident to get back one or two in most fights. This isnt a bad thing, just an observation.
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We couldnt figure out what the blood ragers caster level was supposed to be, so we assumed it was like the paladin/ranger at level-3.
In the "Bloodrager Bloodlines" section, right before the specific bloodlines, it explicitly says "For all spell-like bloodline powers, treat your bloodrager level as the caster level", but the caster level information does seem to be conspicuously absent for the bloodrager's spells. The paladin/ranger method does seem the most reasonable guess.
In addition, the player was curious about going into Dragon Disciple but since we werent sure how that would interact with their blood of the dragons ability, or the dragon bite if at all, he just went straight bloodrager.
I don't know. This seems pretty clear to me. As a bloodrager, you are a sorcerer and you did pick the draconic bloodline. Blood of Dragons stacks dragon disciple levels with bloodrager levels (since that's the archetype of sorcerer you're using) for the purposes of working out which bloodline powers you get, which bonus spells you get, etc. At 2nd level, you'll get your bite when raging (since that's when you're "using your bloodline to grow claws"). Hell, the bloodrager bloodline even gets a breath weapon, so that aspect of the dragon disciple synchs up seamlessly too.
The one area that is a little fuzzy for me is the bonus feats, since there are now two draconic bloodlines, each with a slightly different suite of feats. As a dragon disciple, you gain bloodline feats even if you don't have sorcerer levels, implying that the prestige class might pull from the sorcerer's bloodline even if your base class is bloodrager.
I certainly don't take any issue with this being clarified more, as I'd always rather everything be clearer, but the way I'm reading this most of it fits pretty snugly within the rules as they've been given to us.
In addition, we were not sure if some of the blood raging powers were exclusively when blood raging or if they were all the time. Some powers specifically said 'when entering a blood rage' or something of the sort. Others just said 'you gain'. It wasnt clear to us at least if the claws/resistances were an all the time ability, or if they only appeared when bloodraging.
The "Bloodrager Bloodlines" section, right before the specific bloodlines, says "Unless otherwise specified, he only gains the effects of his bloodrage powers while in a bloodrage; once a bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediate cease. Any that cause a physical change revert to normal when the bloodrage ends." He definitely only gets the claws while raging. In fact, the only bloodrage power I saw that (partially) worked outside of rage was the Fey power One With Nature.
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Good way to do some comparison testing! And a very even-handed review overall.
The bloodrager's bloodline abilities all only function when bloodraging (Page 7, first paragraph under Bloodrager Bloodlines).
I can't really say on the animal companion question. I feel like that has a lot of table variability. Some tables put it entirely in the GM's hands, some in the player's, and others rely on skill checks.
I definitely see your points about 1st level Weapon Finesse and Bloodrager Charisma. I think both classes would work better with those changes.
I'm not really sure what they'll want to do with the dervish dance situation, though. That one's kind of a mess.
Cheers!
Landon
I think the problem with comparing the Hunter to the Druid is that it is actually mechanically closer to a hybrid of Inquisitor and Ranger. The animal companion and spellcasting limitations are the primary contributions the Druid make to the Hunter. The Animal Focus is more in line with an Inquisitor's Judgement ability with the added bonus of pumping the companion. The animal companion intelligence issue is an important one that probably does need to be fleshed out on this, but otherwise seems right.
On the Swashbuckler, I seriously doubt the Scimitar Dervish build actually works. Reason being that the Swashbuckler is built around piercing weapons, whereas the Scimitar is a slashing weapon. RAW, these are mutually exclusive characters. This might change later in the playtest, but unlikely.
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On the Swashbuckler, I seriously doubt the Scimitar Dervish build actually works. Reason being that the Swashbuckler is built around piercing weapons, whereas the Scimitar is a slashing weapon. RAW, these are mutually exclusive characters. This might change later in the playtest, but unlikely.
The Dervish Dancer feat makes a Scimitar into a one-handed piercing weapon for the purposes of all prerequisites, feats, and class features. It's pretty weird.
Nice stuff! I'm interested in seeing you do more kolokotroni!
I think the problem with comparing the Hunter to the Druid is that it is actually mechanically closer to a hybrid of Inquisitor and Ranger. The animal companion and spellcasting limitations are the primary contributions the Druid make to the Hunter. The Animal Focus is more in line with an Inquisitor's Judgement ability with the added bonus of pumping the companion. The animal companion intelligence issue is an important one that probably does need to be fleshed out on this, but otherwise seems right.
None of those classes have a full progression animal companion. Even the ranger, often the animal companion is a side note and it can only pick from a select list of companions (lacking the most powerful 2, the big cat and pouncing dinosaur). With the hunter it seems to me the animal companion is a primary feature. Only the druid has that. We thought about inquisitor, but without some way to get one of getting a full progression animal companion, didnt seem right to me.
On the Swashbuckler, I seriously doubt the Scimitar Dervish build actually works. Reason being that the Swashbuckler is built around piercing weapons, whereas the Scimitar is a slashing weapon. RAW, these are mutually exclusive characters. This might change later in the playtest, but unlikely.
Dervish dance specifically says the scimitar counts as a onehanded piercing weapon when using dervish dance. So it applies to the swashbuckler abilities.
In case you didn't know, the Agile weapon enhancement allows you to add Dexterity to damage in place of Strength. So, while it's not a feat or other permanent option, you can get Dexterity to damage with non-scimitar weapons. Though I agree that there should be a more expansive feat to cover this.
I am aware of the agile weapons property. However it isnt really a solution for my group as non of them have the sort of magic mart mentality where you can get whatever magic items you want. The chances of an agile one handed piercing weapon turning up in a game is essentially nonexistant.
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Greater Weapon Finesse
Pre-reqs: Weapon focus (weapon that is Finesseable). Weapon finesse
Efffects: Dex to damage on weapon that you applied weapon focus to.
This needs to be in the game.
. One thing that did come up though, is tricks/training. Even if the animal companion has the teamwork feat, does he know how to use it? There is often debate as to how much control a pc has over an animal level intelligence companion.
This is a good point.
If I remember correctly if an animal has a feat it is considered trained in its use. Since the hunter
At 3rd level, the hunter’s animal
companion is treated as if it possessed the same teamwork
feats as the hunterI believe they can use the feat if the Hunter has it.
Able to use it is not the same thing as having the knowledge/ability to apply it yourself.
For instance, if a wolf companion has the precise strike teamwork feat obviously if he is flanking he gains the bonus, but does the wolf actually know to move tactically and get into flanking position? Or does the hunter have to do that?
None of those classes have a full progression animal companion. Even the ranger, often the animal companion is a side note and it can only pick from a select list of companions (lacking the most powerful 2, the big cat and pouncing dinosaur). With the hunter it seems to me the animal companion is a primary feature. Only the druid has that. We thought about inquisitor, but without some way to get one of getting a full progression animal companion, didnt seem right to me.I think the problem with comparing the Hunter to the Druid is that it is actually mechanically closer to a hybrid of Inquisitor and Ranger. The animal companion and spellcasting limitations are the primary contributions the Druid make to the Hunter. The Animal Focus is more in line with an Inquisitor's Judgement ability with the added bonus of pumping the companion. The animal companion intelligence issue is an important one that probably does need to be fleshed out on this, but otherwise seems right.
Boon Companion is a way for a ranger to get a full-power animal companion (boosts the companion up 4 levels, up to your level max). But it would still not have the big cat.
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Flank is a specific trick, so unless the hunter has it trained then a GM will most likely insist (as I have done several times) that the creature will close the distance as quickly as possible and attack. You could then move into a flanking position and attack and you both would gain the benefit but without the flanking trick the pet will just move up and attack.
Lets say you have a wolf pet and take coordinated maneuvers, you move adjacent to the pet and the wolf attacks successfully initiating the trip, getting a +2 on the trip attempt because of the feat.
Now look at something like feint partner, you could feint and the wolf gets the bonus but the wolf needs some other trick or feat to feint first before it can give you the benefit.
Flank is a specific trick, so unless the hunter has it trained then a GM will most likely insist (as I have done several times) that the creature will close the distance as quickly as possible and attack. You could then move into a flanking position and attack and you both would gain the benefit but without the flanking trick the pet will just move up and attack.
Lets say you have a wolf pet and take coordinated maneuvers, you move adjacent to the pet and the wolf attacks successfully initiating the trip, getting a +2 on the trip attempt because of the feat.
Now look at something like feint partner, you could feint and the wolf gets the bonus but the wolf needs some other trick or feat to feint first before it can give you the benefit.
This is the sort of thing I'd like cleared up. Because I could see conflict over this kind of thing at some tables. And while with normal companions I am fine with leaving it up to dm discretion, when it comes to something that becomes a focus of the class' abilities (the hunter working with his pet) it becomes more of an issue for me.
Boon Companion is a way for a ranger to get a full-power animal companion (boosts the companion up 4 levels, up to your level max). But it would still not have the big cat.None of those classes have a full progression animal companion. Even the ranger, often the animal companion is a side note and it can only pick from a select list of companions (lacking the most powerful 2, the big cat and pouncing dinosaur). With the hunter it seems to me the animal companion is a primary feature. Only the druid has that. We thought about inquisitor, but without some way to get one of getting a full progression animal companion, didnt seem right to me.I think the problem with comparing the Hunter to the Druid is that it is actually mechanically closer to a hybrid of Inquisitor and Ranger. The animal companion and spellcasting limitations are the primary contributions the Druid make to the Hunter. The Animal Focus is more in line with an Inquisitor's Judgement ability with the added bonus of pumping the companion. The animal companion intelligence issue is an important one that probably does need to be fleshed out on this, but otherwise seems right.
Boon companion is a feat not in the rpg line, and even if you use it, there is no comparison between any of the ranger's options and the big cat/pouncing dino. They are at least from a direct power stand point inferior. So comparing the ranger with a wolf at -4 levels (or costing a feat not everyone has access to) is a less genuine (in my opinion) comparison, then against the druid who can have the same list of companions at the same level, baked right into the class, and for whome natures bond is closer to being a defining feature instead of an add on.
If I remember correctly if an animal has a feat it is considered trained in its use. Since the hunter
At 3rd level, the hunter’s animal
companion is treated as if it possessed the same teamwork
feats as the hunterI believe they can use the feat if the Hunter has it.
Able to use it is not the same thing as having the knowledge/ability to apply it yourself.
For instance, if a wolf companion has the precise strike teamwork feat obviously if he is flanking he gains the bonus, but does the wolf actually know to move tactically and get into flanking position? Or does the hunter have to do that?
If I remember correctly flanking is a trick you have to teach your companion per the animal archive and then make a free action via link ability to make him use the trick (on your turn.)