|
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Here is the text of the Prehensile Hair hex (emphasis mine), found on page 81 of Ultimate Magic:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch’s elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch’s head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.
Is the hair actually a secondary attack or does she just "use it as" one?
Or asked another way:
Normally, when a creature has no other natural attacks and attacks only with a secondary attack, it forgoes the secondary attack penalty and applies 1.5 Strength to damage. When a witch with no other natural attacks uses only his or her hair to attack as a standard action, does that witch take the -5 penalty to his or her attack and apply half Strength (really Intelligence) to damage, regardless?
|
|
I ask because Hero Lab always applies the penalties. When I reported this as a bug, the programmer cited "specific trumps general" and claimed the ability was working as intended. I had never read the line "she can use it as a secondary attack" to mean anything other than "this is a secondary attack," and I still can't see how "using it as a secondary attack" implies the witch always takes the penalties, so I wanted to see if I was alone in failing to see the distinction.
|
|
Partially but they forgot to reference the natural attack rules completely.
Yes the hair is a secondary natural attack and takes those penalties BUT the second part of the natural attack rules here:
. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is ALWAYS made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
overrides those penalties and bumps it back up to a primary attack and gives you the 1.5x Int bonus on damage.
So your question is based on these line from the rules:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.
So you're wondering the witch's hair attack (if she has no other natural attacks) can count as a primary attack?
Based on the wording of the ability I'm inclined to say no. I agree that the ability is worded to say "can use as a secondary attack" which implies it is always used a secondary attack.
Specific trumps general, and I can't think of a reason why that isn't valid.
|
|
I understand the argument, but I have a hard time seeing that viewpoint as valid, and here's why. If you "use it as a secondary attack", doesn't that mean you use all the rules for secondary attacks? Isn't one of the rules for secondary attacks that you don't take the penalties if it's your only natural attack and you attack as a standard action?
That's why this seems like such an arbitrary distinction of phrasing to me.
I thought the devs had weighed in on this and stated that the prehensile hair was treated as the "only one natural attack" clause was in effect.
That's how we play it anyway. It's hardly broken, and mostly comes into play for doing touch attack spells.
There are no rules specifically for secondary natural attacks, just natural attacks in general.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
@Adamantine Dragon, can you cite that developer post please? I agree that its not overpowering to allow the witch to have one natural attack with which she would get 1.5 str damage and her full BAB to hit (which is already low). However, based on the how the ability reads that is not what is implied to me. Barring some clarification from a developer I would continue to say that it functions specifically as a secondary attack.
I faqed this as i am in the same boat as benn, manually adjusting my herolab sheets. Would love to see some dev response.
There was some dev weigh in on this issue with animal fury (barb rage power that grants a bite) and the beastial totem. And the result was, natural attacks are natural attacks are natural attacks. Or rather, natural attacks gained from abilities still operate loke all other natural attacks.
These abils usually say secondary as a precaution assuming that you might be wielding weapons. If you aren't, and this is your only natural attack, then it is a primary.
The case with beast toten and animal fury is that you get two claws and a bite, and all three are primaries.
Any updates on finding this dev wiegh in on the natural attacks? I've not been able to find it.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
The ability is declaring the hair to be a secondary natural attack. It's essentially creating a new line on Bestiary Table 3–1: Natural Attacks By Size (page 302) for "prehensile hair," with the last column saying "secondary."
The normal rule for secondary attacks is if the attack is your only type of attack in the round, it's treated as a primary attack.
The docile ability in the horse entry in the Bestiary calls out that the horse's hooves are secondary attacks even if the horse isn't making any other attacks. That is an exception to the normal rule (stated in my 2nd paragraph).
Because (unlike the docile ability for horse hooves) prehensile hair doesn't say it's always treated as a secondary attack, it follows the normal rule for secondary attacks (in that it's treated as primary if you only attack with the hair).
In other words, prehensile hair is not an "always secondary no matter what" type of natural attack.
In other words, unless an attack specifically calls itself out as an "always secondary no matter what" type of natural attack, it isn't.
The ability is declaring the hair to be a secondary natural attack. It's essentially creating a new line on Bestiary Table 3–1: Natural Attacks By Size (page 302) for "prehensile hair," with the last column saying "secondary."
The normal rule for secondary attacks is if the attack is your only type of attack in the round, it's treated as a primary attack.
The docile ability in the horse entry in the Bestiary calls out that the horse's hooves are secondary attacks even if the horse isn't making any other attacks. That is an exception to the normal rule (stated in my 2nd paragraph).
Because (unlike the docile ability for horse hooves) prehensile hair doesn't say it's always treated as a secondary attack, it follows the normal rule for secondary attacks (in that it's treated as primary if you only attack with the hair).
In other words, prehensile hair is not an "always secondary no matter what" type of natural attack.
In other words, unless an attack specifically calls itself out as an "always secondary no matter what" type of natural attack, it isn't.
Cool, thanks for the clarification.
@Benn Roe, now you have something you can take to Hero Lab and request the change to the program.
Wow thank you for the response! This clears it all up.
|
It's alive!
If I understand correctly, I can also use Prehensile Hair to deliver touch attacks with reach.
If my understanding is correct, I could:
a) use P/H to deliver a touch attack and do no damage, just the spell, or
b) use P/H to make an attack against normal AC and inflict damage.
Plus, the Hair is treated as having STR 22 (my INT).
That is my understanding.
I agree.
I have a hexcrafter/whw built around this idea that shares similarities to the Defiler build posted in the Guides section.
The WH "always on" primary attack ability has a 5ft reach, uses STR to attack, does 1d4+INT damage (I assume bludgeoning), and initiates a free INT-based grapple that is similar to, yet not, the standard Grab ability.
Now per the rules of how things do or don't stack, when PH is activated, the reach increases to 10ft (the 5ft and 10ft reaches don't stack, I just take the higher of the two), the hair now has a STR score equal to my INT, it still does 1d4+INT (the 1d3 and 1d4 overlap and don't stack so I take the higher of the two), and it maintains its grab-like ability and primary attack status as I have no other natural attacks.
Not a bad thing, although Round 1 is generally spent activating the PH and then moving into position.