Goblin Squad Member
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There's been about 500 pages of forum about this so far and basically it boils down to one game-culture goal:
Teach that players shouldn't be a$$&^ts, not that they shouldn't let themselves get ganked by a$$&^ts.
If done successfully that will make PO markedly different than previous games that didn't make that a design goal. (How that gets done is part of the 500 pages of forum)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suspect if you game alone, you will be a victim. If you adventure with a group, that collaborated PvE will reduce PvP choices. UNC and others will pick their targets. They will avoid targets which have combat capabilities. While characters with more merit badges will be more skilled, but that improvement will be flat and shallow.
*snipped*
lam
The bolded section is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I mentioned my concerns, and the sentence that follows exactly the kind of thing I don't want to be forced into simply for the sake of being able to do stuff when my guild/friends/other like-minded people aren't around.
I am holding out for the Early Enrollment community setting the standards and keeping the gank-fest behaviour to a minimum in the belief that if it can happen anywhere, it can happen here - at least some of what I have been reading suggests there is a good chance of success.
but I think we may redefine PvP. It just might work, what the devs are proposing, to make it meaningful, to make it matter not just for you and me but even for those who enjoy murdering game characters and find their personal expression in optimizing their play toward only that end.
Okay, I admit it, the possibilities of this do intrigue me. Curiousity apparently kills little goblins too...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sylverthorne, I would also point out that Andius of The Empyrean Order has publicly announced they plan to open up their areas of control to folks like you who want to be able to harvest and generally explore without too much fear of being killed for no apparent reason. I can also assure you that Andius takes great personal satisfaction in hunting down and killing the kind of scum and villainy that makes a point of killing others for no apparent reason, so a place like that might be a good place to call home.
I see you've been around quite a while, but I'm still going to plug my list of Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links. Some folks - very flatteringly - call it the Nihimonicon :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that setting the tone of how the culture develops is key. I think the groups we have thus far will do that pretty well, and as long as EE allows us enough time to get sufficiently established before the doors are thrown open, we can provide a core of stability.
We've got good folks who want to protect the little guy, business-folk who want a coherent economic system, and even villains who can show that player-driven opposition can work if it is done in a context with more purpose to it besides just being @$$#@+$.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sylverthorne
I don't know about EE as there is a lot of transition going on and a lot of the player-group features not implemented at that early stage. But the overview of the game as it is being designed towards:
1. Single player
2. Player + friends = ad hoc party taking a contract on offer in a friendly settlement they are allied to or associated with.
3. small party is a more serious part of a CC for longer-term goals of scheduling eg PvE activities such as gathering/harvesting or dungeoneering to be more economical and organized
4. Part of a settlement that control territory where any of 1.-4. can be carried out in safe zones ie guarded by players who are allies.
5. Expeditions beyond the pale.
So you see a single-player is intended to slot in at various levels for various reasons and social organization implications.
No doubt having territory will require some specific input by players to maintain that status quo.
But if you are in such a scenario, you probably can find what you are wanting. Afterall settlements will want players doing lots of various useful things. But PvP threat is always present. It just might be that you are not front-line, perhaps third or fourth line.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think playing a lone wolf will be very hard and you'll die a lot.
That is by design.
I accept that there is a population of players who want a solo game with occasional ad hoc grouping. This is not that game. This is a game about making substantial investments of time in forming strong and cohesive social structures and putting group needs ahead of individual needs - a lot like a tabletop RPG experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thought as much. In truth, few MMORPGs really /are/ that kind of game - in order to do anything really epic, you have to have the group, and all the fun (and not so fun) that goes with that.
I can accept that. I was never good at some aspects of cohesive social structures (dealing with people who think it's funny to ruin other people's day, either directly, or by being passive-aggressive little *coughs* makes me very tired, for example), but I can accept that sometimes, you just have to... well. You know.
Which I guess means that I need to find me some social structure. I play good healers. Anyone need one of those? I usually come with a tank. He's even less good at being a social butterfly than I am.
Seriously though, I haven't given up on this being fun yet, and I'm poking around the linked post - what'd you call it? The Nihimonicon? - for ideas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think playing a lone wolf will be very hard and you'll die a lot.
That is by design.
I accept that there is a population of players who want a solo game with occasional ad hoc grouping. This is not that game. This is a game about making substantial investments of time in forming strong and cohesive social structures and putting group needs ahead of individual needs - a lot like a tabletop RPG experience.
I'll close the door on the way out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sylverthorne I was not meaning to be aggressive but to say what Ryan says, but in a little more civilized way. Ryan is part of development team and I should accept (not seeing other evidence) that he speaks to the shape of the world. Lone wolf will be at risk, by design. SO bring a friend. Clerics of alignment appropriate to the settlement are welcome. (Desna clerics seem to be a little lost).
The world is intended to encourage player interactions. PvP is not only others attacking you, but working with others to achieve a goal as in PnP (Pen and Paper) or TT (Table Top) [around here it is assumed you know all the "acronyms"].
There seem to be two major settlements forming so far, one Neutral -- Neutral (with support from evil and chaotic types to patrol their local region) and second purporting to be Neutral Good but many of the more vocal posters more the LG, but it is aligned with some other neutrals (interested in knowing all there is to know) -- this latter settlement also intends to have good protection for it settlement members (player interested in patrols to see what they can scare up) and others interested to help your quests (PvE).
There is a lengthy blog, close to two years in length, in which the developers discuss they concept and progress.
Now settlements are a large mixture of charter companies and all sorts of specially defined term, but the short of it is that there should be a large number of locals that you could adventure with. A word of warning, you can do little trips next to the settlement and probably be under protection of either city's concept of patrol. But there really good loot means venturing farther with friends. And for either settlement, if those settlement "friends" are not, itv they are giving you problems, let the settlement know. Neither of these settlements will brook ganking their own. the roll out is many months away; other may start proposing settlements and the rules there may be different. From what you write you do not seem to want to stab friend in back. Can't say for new settlement, but Pax/UNC (they have new nations name that starts with X) or TEO/T7V will be a satisfactory comfortable community for you to start.
But watch out if Hobs ttys to sell you a green hat (not really -- that is long joke on the many threads).
This is intended to be a game you play together with friend on line. You might look here to see who might be in your 'zone'. Note this is less that 150 players out of 8,000+ in the 2nd Kickstarter. (plus more in OE)
lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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Supporting solo play would violate the mission "maximize human interaction".
Also, for reference:
KS2 Update 7 - Can I play the game Solo?
Lee Hammock: Hi, I'm Lee Hammock. I'm the Lead Game Designer at Goblinworks.
Stephen Cheney: And I'm Stephen Cheney. I'm also a Game Designer at Goblinworks.
Can I play the game Solo
LH: [laughing] That is a fantastic - I love that question.
SC: [laughing] You shouldn't do that, you're going to die.
Too much honest for the Holidays, gentlemen. Let's try it again!
Offscreen: So, let's say I come into Pathfinder Online and I want to do a little bit of solo PvE, I want to be a roaming do-gooder who goes around and looks for ways to help out Settlements. What sorts of things would I do in this game?
SC: Well, the first thing to get conveyed is that I'm also a big solo player in a lot of MMOs, but I think that a lot of it has to do with it not being easy to get into a group and being sort of reliant on other people who can ruin your fun and having to gather all the stuff and our goal on the whole for Pathfinder Online is to make it as painless as possible to become part of a group for both PvE and PvP. We want Settlements to actively recruit people, we want groups to be a really good idea and make it really easy to join up, and we'll have some other ideas on how that will happen later on in development. But in general, solo play is not going to be the thing that you have to do because you just can't stand anybody else. But as a solo player, you can still help out a lot if you're willing to take on a greater risk vs. reward because if you're going to be out alone in the wilderness, you're going to be threatened by bandits, and that's something you can do. But you can also craft locally in town, and that will be almost completely safe in most locations. That can be both refining resources and producing finished goods. Additionally, you could go out in the wilderness and identify locations, scout, report back and if you realize the location is safe, you can harvest there, you can fight stuff there and there'll be a lot of things you can do in the wilderness as long as you've basically covered your own back.
I'll close the door on the way out.I think playing a lone wolf will be very hard and you'll die a lot.
That is by design.
I accept that there is a population of players who want a solo game with occasional ad hoc grouping. This is not that game. This is a game about making substantial investments of time in forming strong and cohesive social structures and putting group needs ahead of individual needs - a lot like a tabletop RPG experience.
ill start with this "Stake your claim! In the anarchic hills and valleys of the River Kingdoms, all you own is what you can hold by force."
you look like a Rper, so, instead of leaving you could take that as a challenge, surviving alone in a hard land or you could make some friends, even mad max made it. The River Kingdoms is not a walk in the park, you arent a special snowflake.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those independents who yearn to be free could agree to form loose confederations to support one another, yet never group, always recognize one another, and make use of cooperative play without all the codependent dreck. While it might sound chaotic I think the model would work best as TN. Without intended reference to haberdashery, were I considering forming such a loose confederation, I'd call it the Green.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll close the door on the way out.I think playing a lone wolf will be very hard and you'll die a lot.
That is by design.
I accept that there is a population of players who want a solo game with occasional ad hoc grouping. This is not that game. This is a game about making substantial investments of time in forming strong and cohesive social structures and putting group needs ahead of individual needs - a lot like a tabletop RPG experience.
My plan is a druid/bandit/scout/gatherer.
In all these roles I intend to be in the Wilderness operating with intel/info from the group I'm affiliated with, but perhaps in a small group and maybe even solo eg if animal form can allow swift locomotion or eye-in-the-sky functionality ;) . So Ryan is right, building a platform around a strong community but from that your gameplay maybe can be more tailored.
That's the sort of game I'm looking for. It might be crafter instead or builder or spy etc etc. But based on a connection to a player group that adds value with your gameplay outputs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll close the door on the way out.I think playing a lone wolf will be very hard and you'll die a lot.
That is by design.
I accept that there is a population of players who want a solo game with occasional ad hoc grouping. This is not that game. This is a game about making substantial investments of time in forming strong and cohesive social structures and putting group needs ahead of individual needs - a lot like a tabletop RPG experience.
Settlement organizations will make the zone in and around their territory relatively safer, and they'll need people to handle putting down escalation cycles and prospecting for resource nodes. There will be others looking to do those things too, so I'd encourage you to find a settlement with like-minded folks you actually enjoy playing with rather than assuming that finding players you can merely tolerate is the best you can hope for.
In a themepark where you can solo, most players will do so until they hit content that actually requires a group. That leads to the random PUG experience which is rarely positive, but if you are 'living in' a settlement you help to support, along with others whose company you enjoy, then grouping becomes something to look forward to rather than dread.
The quest & instance content model also makes it so players tend to decide what they want to do first and try to find people going that way after. A sandbox environment tends to lead to players seeing who's on and what they're doing first, and deciding what or whom to join with after.
PFO's sandbox design tends to turn many MMO assumptions on their heads.
- Instead of choosing an alignment which defines how you're 'supposed to' act, you act as you see fit and the system tells you what alignment you're falling into.
- Instead of choosing a class which dictates what abilities you have, you choose what abilities to train and that determines what roles you can fulfill.
- Instead of choosing what content to engage in and seeing who is necessary and available, you'll tend to see who is available and use that to decide what content to engage in.
It's bottom-up rather than top-down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO's sandbox design tends to turn many MMO assumptions on their heads.
I believe this is a key point that will have to be revisited time and again. So long as GW isn't actively planning entire systems to punish the independent, it will be for the independent to create the real game out of what GW does build. It is bottom up design in a radical, even revolutionary sense. The company is mostly building the environment. To do that well they necessarily visualize how they see it playing out. But we will have agency as well. We can decide how closely knit our social structures are. we will decide how we collectively decide. We will build our end of the game: it will be up to us. Our responsibility does not end with our choosing to log in: we will also be responsible for most of the content. We can form tightly controlled dictatorships or loosely allied confederations of cooperative individualist characters. So much of how the game plays out will rest on our shoulders, be they bony intellectuals or brawny roustabouts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a game about making substantial investments of time in forming strong and cohesive social structures and putting group needs ahead of individual needs - a lot like a tabletop RPG experience.
I'm a long time gamer who plays computer games because I can play them according to my schedule. But... games are really meant to be played with others. If I want to play TT, I either belong to a group and gather weekly for a game. Or I go to my local game store on Pathfinder evening.
I see PFO as an extension of the game store with the tables in the back. If I play by any sort of schedule, I'll keep running into people that keep the same sort of schedule as I do. In PFO I'll pick a settlement that generally meets my alignment desires and play. If I play daily I may be in a pretty tight company. If I play one 4-hour block a week, I expect there will be companies that need my help or pick-up groups.
Would a settlement prefer a 20 hour/week player over a 4 hour/week player? Sure. But the smart settlement will find space for both.
You had me up until here.
- Instead of choosing what content to engage in and seeing who is necessary and available, you'll tend to see who is available and use that to decide what content to engage in.This needs clarification, though. In the best case, this suggests PFO should be viewn as 'I have two hours to kill, let's see who's here and what we can do.' This is fine. Unfortunately, my mind immediately went to the worst case, that being, player A logs in with the specific intention of working on progression in activity X, and will need help. Seeing who is available, he realizes that plan cannot proceed, as there is noone available to help, for one reason or another.
This may well be a mindset difference, but I have a problem right about where I am expected to treat what little off time I have as surprise egg. Yes, sometimes, a few hours just need killing, and that's fine. Most of the time, I know that I want to accomplish X and have Y hours this evening. Most of the time, the Y hours are not negotiable. Do I really want to get sidetracked doing Z that I am not even interested in, just because that is what people are available for? Not sure there is a game engine answer for it, but it sure does not look like a feature to me, no matter what side I approach that from.
guild wars 2 or wow.
The appropriate response to this is not quotable in polite company. Since I believe MOST of the posters on this board are gentlepersons, I shall leave up to their imagination what said response might be.
this is a virtual world sandbox not a themepark for entitled people.
The appropriate response to this is not quotable in polite company. Since I believe MOST of the posters on this board are gentlepersons, I shall leave up to their imagination what said response might be.
Most people will have a preferred playstyle, if they gravitate to settlements that house people who share that preference and tend to share that log on time I would imagine your problem will be largely solved.
It may be true that occasionally what you feel like is an instance when you log on for two hours and no one wants to run one but it is at least likely they will be doing some other PVE content rather than you have to go for something you hate like small gang PVP.
It should be noted that one thing PfO is unlikely to support (at least for a few years) is the I have an hour to kill I will log on and run an instance. This is purely because as I understand it that running instances will depend on finding one first then getting a group together. Once run it will disappear and another will be spawned in a different area.
While we don't know how common these instances will be I think its safe to assume we aren't going to be tripping over the entrances every few steps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@andi598d, there are a lot of folks on these forums who will happily engage you in friendly conversation and try to offer useful suggestions. Feel free to ask questions or just speak your mind.
If you're looking for a group of like-minded folks - or at least compatible personalities - with whom to play, then allow me to suggest Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links. It sounds like you already know quite a bit about the plans for the game, but I still find the annotated list of blog posts quite useful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Settlements will be made up of 1000+ people. Even if you don't find enough people in your company to do a desired task, you should be able to find enough people among those numbers who want to do a similar task (unless your desired task is something like taking over a settlement). I doubt many people will frequently have the issue of "I want to do X but there aren't enough people online"; a bigger issue might be deciding who gets to pick the tasks that people are doing.
If by "lone wolf", you want to play as someone who doesn't belong to any organization or settlement and adventures alone in the wild, then I would agree that this probably isn't the right game for that. If, however, you want to operate independently inside a larger group, then there should be plenty of opportunities to do that. Reconnaissance, assassinations, scouting for a larger party; many different ways to play in this way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon, Shane, grazie. I apologize for the earlier outburst - my tolerance for regenerating humanoids with 6 hit dice is limited.
Now, if I launch any MMORPG, I have no expectation of being able to do everything (or in many cases, even a lot of things) by myself. Nature of the beast. No, my concern is simply that by reversing the order of 'this is what I want to do --> what kind of help do I need to find' as the poster I originally responded to stated, people like myself who are on a limited schedule outside of taking time off work will find themselves marginalized in what they /can/ do simply by nature of who is online during their game-devoted time. This, as I said, does not strike me as a feature no matter what angle I view it from. ( Incidentally, I have the same problem in the cited other games... maybe larger cohesive communities like envisioned here /will/ help that. )
One thing to remember is that unlike most other games, there will only be one server shared by all players. There shouldn't be much of a problem finding players online whenever you might log in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unfortunately, I have to say that your problem should be in place for the game to be functional. We obviously have to have some point where a larger group is needed to accomplish a specific task, or there would be no benefit to interacting with other people. It follows that sometimes you won't be able to do a task you want due to a lack of necessary numbers. We shouldn't have a small group of 5 people regularly conquering a city on their own, no matter how much those players want to conquer that city.
It might be a problem for someone with a less flexible schedule to find the people they need. That's not really a feature, but I don't see it as a reconcilable issue either. What, if anything, do you think they could do that would promote human interactions while resolving your issue? The only solutions I could see are things like purchasable NPC companions or making most tasks soloable, which both seem to run counter to that fundamental building block of this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only solutions I could see are things like purchasable NPC companions or making most tasks soloable, which both seem to run counter to that fundamental building block of this game.
I'd think there would be plenty of room for casual players to join harvesting/gathering operations - which likely will involve PVE.
Need to do some deed/achievements to unlock your recently trained skills? There will be companies that want the Influence from that achievement gain - and they'll help you get the achievement; they get the Influence, then they'll see you next weekend.
Oh - and the settlement always needs more laborers to sign up for building construction, so do that before you log out.
There will be lots of things to do. I'd expect that when a settlement (or pre-settlement group) gets up in the 200+ range they will likely have dedicated recruiters and trainers that will be focused on finding niches where people can fit in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was trying to speak generally of things where you need other players; andi seemed to have something in particular in mind that could not be done alone that he/she wanted to do. I agree that there's plenty of space for more casual gamers to do certain things, but not every sphere of play is currently a good spot for someone with very limited time.