I'm currently GMing a game where one of the players (who is playing a wizard) informed me of a potentially unbalancing (yet clever) way of getting wishes on a daily basis at 11th level: take the True Name Arcane Discovery and summon forth an Effrit to dole out wishes whenever the character wants.
Looking at the wording it's clear the True Name acts as a Planar Binding spell, so while the player was expecting to get 3 wishes a day I realized after the first service was completed (the first wish granted) it could immediately return to where it came from. I feel reasonably justified in curtailing the number of wishes granted to one.
However, I dislike the entire idea of an 11th level wizard with a daily wish-granting servitor, though I think the route to doing so is clever and don't want to say no just out of hand. Ingenuity should be rewarded... but abuse should be curtailed.
If the player decides to go through with the daily wish-a-thon I want to make him seriously regret trying to blackmail an Effrit so I ask my fellow GM's and players: Do any of you have any ideas or advice on how an Effrit might plan and prepare to gain revenge upon his tormentor? Could the Effrit eventually change it's true name, and if so, how? What sort of plan might an Effrit exact to free itself from the one who knows it's true name? Murder, or something more heinous?
At least he's not chain binding.
At least he's not chain binding.
Do you mean doing something like using the Wish to cast a Greater Planar Binding Spell to bind a more powerful Outsider to his service? I've been pondering that potential problem as well...
Looks like it says in the discovery itself "Don't abuse this discovery too much or the DM gets license to take it away, possibly by making you reroll something without the discovery."
Okay, fine. It actually says
It is in your best interest to call this creature only sparingly, and occasionally reward it in some fashion to mollify its wrath. If you repeatedly fail to offer it a reward appropriate to its type and ethos, the creature may begin plotting ways to destroy the bond between you, whether by creating an accident that will destroy your memory of the name, by plaguing you with nuisances or dangers until you vow never to call on it again, or by actively seeking to destroy you through its own devices or those of an underling. If this creature is of a lawful type and you are violating its ethos, its superiors may even destroy it or you rather than allow you to contaminate their servant further. Worse, they may establish situations where it is necessary for you to summon this outsider, opening gateways to infernal or angelic interference, in order to gain a foothold on the Material Plane.
Which coincides with what I was thinking. The Efreet are LE, so unless this one is a rogue, it has a place in a social structure (the City of Brass I think?). Its superiors may either decide to kill the mortal, or kill the efreet.
Chain-binding is the more popular method, and it is not new. It is pretty easy to do it within the rules, but most players know their GM won't allow it, or something like altering the wish ala the "Wishmaster" movies will take place.
True names can not be changed, and I would just tell the player "no". If that does not work, and he insist on ruining his run than have the genie use his wish granting services as payment to send someone(s) to kill the character, and no I would not make it level appropriate. The hit squad would let it be known that they only want PC A, so as long as the rest of the PC's stay out of the way they would not be harmed/killed.
edit:removed silly question. :)
Wow, I've never read the True Name arcane discovery before. That's a really badly written rule, it reads like something from pre-pathfinder days. Personally I'd thank the player for discovering the flaw and then simply disallow the arcane discovery.
However it seems that you wish to allow it, and since the arcane discovery removes the normal GM safeguards on planar binding there's not much mechanical support to draw upon as a GM. Let's look at the fluff.
The Bestiary 1 doesn't have a lot of fluff on the Efreet, however it does mention that they have a number of noble Efreet named Maliks. Since these noble efreet have 13 hit dice, they are not eligible for the True Name arcane discovery. The PC would then be calling on a regular efreet which possibly (who knows, there's no ecology section in there) serves a Malik as a feudal lord.
I would personally have the Malik pay the wizard a visit (Efreet can plane-shift at will to the inner planes) after the first time the wizard uses the exploit. The Malik can explain that for using a servant that belongs to the Malik the wizard now owes the Malik a favour.
Then the wizard will have to negotiate with the Malik an appropriate agreement to be able to continue to use the Efreet's services.
^ Tis just a discovery, he was researching it all as he levels up and picks it.
This is the outsider thinking I would expect:
1: Kill the mortal by yourself if he slips up.
2: If the service is tolerable, fulfill it. The mortal will die (his knowledge with him), and you are immortal. It's better that your peers don't learn about this shame/weakness
3: You ask for help from your peers. Not only do they laugh at you, but your enemies might try to learn the true name from the mortal if they catch him.
Looks like it says in the discovery itself "Don't abuse this discovery too much or the DM gets license to take it away, possibly by making you reroll something without the discovery."
Okay, fine. It actually says
It is in your best interest to call this creature only sparingly, and occasionally reward it in some fashion to mollify its wrath. If you repeatedly fail to offer it a reward appropriate to its type and ethos, the creature may begin plotting ways to destroy the bond between you, whether by creating an accident that will destroy your memory of the name, by plaguing you with nuisances or dangers until you vow never to call on it again, or by actively seeking to destroy you through its own devices or those of an underling. If this creature is of a lawful type and you are violating its ethos, its superiors may even destroy it or you rather than allow you to contaminate their servant further. Worse, they may establish situations where it is necessary for you to summon this outsider, opening gateways to infernal or angelic interference, in order to gain a foothold on the Material Plane.Which coincides with what I was thinking. The Efreet are LE, so unless this one is a rogue, it has a place in a social structure (the City of Brass I think?). Its superiors may either decide to kill the mortal, or kill the efreet.
So the Efreet can Plane Shift at will, so have the Efreet show up with 8 of his closest Elder Fire Elemental (or other high CR fire outsider) friends and beat the Wizard into a pulp.
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^ Tis just a discovery, he was researching it all as he levels up and picks it.
This is the outsider thinking I would expect:
1: Kill the mortal by yourself if he slips up.
2: If the service is tolerable, fulfill it. The mortal will die (his knowledge with him), and you are immortal. It's better that your peers don't learn about this shame/weakness
3: You ask for help from your peers. Not only do they laugh at you, but your enemies might try to learn the true name from the mortal if they catch him.
Seeing as how this is an obvious tactic for mortal mages, I would think that the City of Brass, as a lawful evil state, has it's own "Wish-binder Gestapo" that is dedicated to hunting down and taking out anyone doing stuff like this.
They also probably have regulations forbidding efreeti from hiding their troublesome caller, that they must report - otherwise it will be a spreading pandemic of efreeti enslavement by weakling mortals, something they will not allow.
If I were playing an Efreet and an NPC wizard pulled this on me, I'd find someone who hates the wizard (perhaps an orphaned goblin whose parents were killed by the wizard). Then I'd Plane shift to the prime material and offer their enemy my other two wishes for the day. (since Efreet can only grant the wishes of non-genies).
Hopefully you can get their enemy to wish the wizard dead.
He hasn't taken the Arcane Discovery, but he is working on learning the True Names of as many creatures as possible. He's playing a Chelaxian Devil-binder and I'm running a pretty flexible, sand-box style, player driver campaign. I'm usually open to player ideas and input, I just may make them jump through some difficult hoops to accomplish what they want. An Efreet's name will be difficult to come by to say the least, and at a minimum he will have to make some hard research or interrogation rolls to accomplish this seeing how rife for abuse this particular outsider can be. While I don't dislike the heavy handed 'kill squad' solution, I prefer to use such methods as last-resort options. Still, it will be on the table as soon as he starts abusing the power. The Malik idea is cool - I think that might be the way to go, *if* the Malkik notices the abuse of his underling. The more heinous the number or type of wish(es), the more likely the Malik takes action. Might make the Summoner think twice about calling upon the Efreet. As for the Efreet attacking, I was considering that as well, but the True Name really leaves the Efreet vulnerable (though the Plane Shift and Fire Elemental aid is a good solution to that impediment). And it definitely sounds like I'll have to read up on the City of Brass and their hierarchy and policing forces for ideas on who may seek to quash such mortal abuse of the Efreet's power. Is the City of Brass detailed in Legacy of Fire? Or The Great Beyond?
Is the City of Brass detailed in [...] The Great Beyond?
Yes. Pages 18 and 19-20.
Is the City of Brass detailed in [...] The Great Beyond?Yes. Pages 18 and 19-20.
The material there was sparse, and nothing on spy organizations or secret police who might look for wish abuse. Still, nothing claims such a group doesn't exist either, so I'm going to have to add a secret Efreet police force and assassination squad which lurks in the wings. Too egregious an abuse in the wishes and the Efreet breaks the byzantine and tyrannical laws the Grand Vizier and his bureaucracy have put in place over him and he suffers immediate execution by said police force. That's a good check on any abuse, plus the player will suffer the loss of the Efreet as a servant (as well as effectively a feat) in exchange for a number of wishes. I'm ok with that balance-wise.
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Honestly let it happen, run wild with what he's doing...
And encourage the wishes to get more grandiouse. Have the effreet encourage him and eventually ensnare him with his own words.
Also enforce the pay bit, if the effreet isn't getting it willingly from the wizard, stuff the wizard owns might start disappearing... or his friends...
Lt him do it. Seriously, ENCOURAGE him to do ti.
Then bring the wording of his wishes onto this forum and let us all have fun with him! Woot!
Yes, because screwing with the guy who knows the words that literally define your existence is a wonderful idea. Oh wait... no that sounds like a really really bad idea.
Yes, because screwing with the guy who knows the words that literally define your existence is a wonderful idea. Oh wait... no that sounds like a really really bad idea.Lt him do it. Seriously, ENCOURAGE him to do ti.
Then bring the wording of his wishes onto this forum and let us all have fun with him! Woot!
Yes, because abusing the rules is only for players, and a player who abuses the rules in a disruptive manner should not be acted against.
That said, I recommend the DM forewarns the player, and says straight up: "I don't want you to do this. Doing this means it will either be disruptive to gameplay, or I'll make sure you do get negative in-game consequences for it. Please don't try to "win" the game by abusing things in a way where the game gives me as DM the green card to stop you - it ends badly either for your character or the game as a whole."
Communication is key, and things like this require out of game communication before any action is taken from either part.
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Yes, because screwing with the guy who knows the words that literally define your existence is a wonderful idea. Oh wait... no that sounds like a really really bad idea.Lt him do it. Seriously, ENCOURAGE him to do ti.
Then bring the wording of his wishes onto this forum and let us all have fun with him! Woot!
Yes, because abusing the rules is only for players, and a player who abuses the rules in a disruptive manner should not be acted against.
That said, I recommend the DM forewarns the player, and says straight up: "I don't want you to do this. Doing this means it will either be disruptive to gameplay, or I'll make sure you do get negative in-game consequences for it. Please don't try to "win" the game by abusing things in a way where the game gives me as DM the green card to stop you - it ends badly either for your character or the game as a whole."
Communication is key, and things like this require out of game communication before any action is taken from either part.
As someone who usually DMs I can assure you that none of my players know my true name making this a very different situation. Also I'm not sure abuse is the right word here, since getting help from an outsider is the intended use of True Names (and its not like the player is requesting anything strenuous or difficult from the Efreeti) and the player spent resources on it. Is it overpowered? Absolutely! Abusive... not so much. And this is why its best to have a gentleman's agreement while continuing to request better balance.
As someone who usually DMs I can assure you that none of my players know my true name making this a very different situation. Also I'm not sure abuse is the right word here, since getting help from an outsider is the intended use of True Names (and its not like the player is requesting anything strenuous or difficult from the Efreeti) and the player spent resources on it. Is it overpowered? Absolutely! Abusive... not so much. And this is why its best to have a gentleman's agreement while continuing to request better balance.
Getting infinite wishes at level 11 is abusive. That's why the ability includes a pretty big green card for DM payback so to speak. It's intended usage is not to frakk up the game, and that's why it includes an "if you use this in an abusive way, the DM will get you" clause. That's why I don't think this is much of a balance issue - the balance issue only exist if someone tries to do overpowered stuff, and the ability says quite clearly and if you do that you risk losing the benefit of it.
If your campaign is of a "hard rules" type, the ability will not fit very well in that campaign - however, if it's in a "soft rules" type campaign, it can fill a niche that is hard to match otherwise. The same goes for the leadership feat, illusion spells, planar allies/bindings and a multitude of other things.
But I agree - an agreement between players and GM is required for these type of abilities to work well within the campaign.
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That said, I recommend the DM forewarns the player, and says straight up: "I don't want you to do this. Doing this means it will either be disruptive to gameplay, or I'll make sure you do get negative in-game consequences for it. Please don't try to "win" the game by abusing things in a way where the game gives me as DM the green card to stop you - it ends badly either for your character or the game as a whole."
I always keep my ultimate threat on hand for these situations. "These unbalanced rules are making it really hard to run pathfinder. Maybe we should use a different ruleset next time. I think I've got my GURPS books sitting around somewhere..." :P
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Looks like it says in the discovery itself "Don't abuse this discovery too much or the DM gets license to take it away, possibly by making you reroll something without the discovery."
Okay, fine. It actually says
It is in your best interest to call this creature only sparingly, and occasionally reward it in some fashion to mollify its wrath. If you repeatedly fail to offer it a reward appropriate to its type and ethos, the creature may begin plotting ways to destroy the bond between you, whether by creating an accident that will destroy your memory of the name, by plaguing you with nuisances or dangers until you vow never to call on it again, or by actively seeking to destroy you through its own devices or those of an underling. If this creature is of a lawful type and you are violating its ethos, its superiors may even destroy it or you rather than allow you to contaminate their servant further. Worse, they may establish situations where it is necessary for you to summon this outsider, opening gateways to infernal or angelic interference, in order to gain a foothold on the Material Plane.Which coincides with what I was thinking. The Efreet are LE, so unless this one is a rogue, it has a place in a social structure (the City of Brass I think?). Its superiors may either decide to kill the mortal, or kill the efreet.
Let me paraphrase this quotation:
"Hey, let's give the player an obviously overpowered option and make the GM at the table be the bad guy to keep the player from being a jerk! High five!"
You could also just say that an Efreet can only grant 3 wishes per mortal ever, or that requesting more than 3 wishes can bring you over the line for the insult the Efreet/City of Brass will tolerate.
He can still command it as an agent after the wishes, just as he would any other bound outsider. But come up with some fair limits you can both agree on.
Looks like it says in the discovery itself "Don't abuse this discovery too much or the DM gets license to take it away, possibly by making you reroll something without the discovery."
Okay, fine. It actually says
It is in your best interest to call this creature only sparingly, and occasionally reward it in some fashion to mollify its wrath. If you repeatedly fail to offer it a reward appropriate to its type and ethos, the creature may begin plotting ways to destroy the bond between you, whether by creating an accident that will destroy your memory of the name, by plaguing you with nuisances or dangers until you vow never to call on it again, or by actively seeking to destroy you through its own devices or those of an underling. If this creature is of a lawful type and you are violating its ethos, its superiors may even destroy it or you rather than allow you to contaminate their servant further. Worse, they may establish situations where it is necessary for you to summon this outsider, opening gateways to infernal or angelic interference, in order to gain a foothold on the Material Plane.Which coincides with what I was thinking. The Efreet are LE, so unless this one is a rogue, it has a place in a social structure (the City of Brass I think?). Its superiors may either decide to kill the mortal, or kill the efreet.
Let me paraphrase this quotation:
"Hey, let's give the player an obviously overpowered option and make the GM at the table be the bad guy to keep the player from being a jerk! High five!"
Ya this sums up my position pretty well +1.
Remember, the ideal situation in this case is to punish the player so badly for taking this feat that he leaves your group, and disses you on the internet for years afterward. If you can get the rest of the group to quit as well, that's an added bonus.
On the player's side, for maximum jerkishness I would use first wish to summon the efrit's master, and offer the efrit's true name to him in exchange for rights to call on the efrit. That should get some cover from the efrit side of things.