Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that "class" refers to a tiny subset of feats and magic items that may require a class but aren't actually from it, instead of the set of abilities that comprise what the class is.
But this argument seems to have reached the mutilating a deceased equine stage, so, bowing out.
Certain magic items are class specific, also certain feats require certain levels in certain classes as prerequisites, which you'd lose the use of if you didn't retain your class - even if they were strictly mental abilities.
So yes, there is a use for class aside from class features.
Can I see if I have your argument straight.
Because it doesn't say you keep your spellcasting even though you keep your class, you lose your spellcasting even though it doesn't say you lose your spellcasting?
The answer is clear, if you don't lose it you keep it. RAW Magic Jar and Marionette Possession clearly allow you cast spells, since they don't disallow it.
The answer is clear, if you don't lose it you keep it. RAW Magic Jar and Marionette Possession clearly allow you cast spells, since they don't disallow it.
And there I was thinking that RAW was "Rules as Written", not "Rules as Implied" or "Rules as Interpreted".
The answer is clear, if you don't lose it you keep it. RAW Magic Jar and Marionette Possession clearly allow you cast spells, since they don't disallow it.And there I was thinking that RAW was "Rules as Written", not "Rules as Implied" or "Rules as Interpreted".
The spell is terribly vague ('mental abilities') and pretty much requires RAI. Given how thoroughly the spell disallows using any of the target's Ex, Su, Sp and Spell abilities (because allowing them to be used on a case-by-case basis would require exhaustive listing), it's strange that they are extremely vague on the caster's abilities.
Whether or not the caster can use HIS Spells/Su/Ex/Sp is equally (or even more) important and should be clearly stated. Some of these are racially derived (Aasimar/Tiefling spells), some are feats (Kitsune Magical Tail), so they don't all fall under the blanket of 'Class Features'.
It seems to be RAI that the caster of Contingency supplies the other spell as well, though it's not explicitly stated. Scrolls + UMD seems to be a valid bypass, if an expensive one (minimum level scroll of Heal is 1650gp). Given that this was supposed to be an exercise in 'free' Wish/Simulacrum making, it would put the brakes on the scheme.
It seems to be RAI that the caster of Contingency supplies the other spell as well, though it's not explicitly stated. Scrolls + UMD seems to be a valid bypass, if an expensive one (minimum level scroll of Heal is 1650gp). Given that this was supposed to be an exercise in 'free' Wish/Simulacrum making, it would put the brakes on the scheme.
Paladin cohort(or even just knowing a guy in town that fits) with Craft Wand has been my go to for cheapening Blood Money. Even if it rolled minimums each time, the wand of Lesser Resto is still cheaper than a scroll of heal unless you're talking above 110 Str score.
The answer is clear, if you don't lose it you keep it. RAW Magic Jar and Marionette Possession clearly allow you cast spells, since they don't disallow it.And there I was thinking that RAW was "Rules as Written", not "Rules as Implied" or "Rules as Interpreted".
I'm using RAW because I'm literally not interpreting anything and just going by the wording of the spell. To even hold the position of "you can't cast spells while using Magic Jar and Marionette Possession requires you to interpret the rule such that by not saying you keep, you instead lose the powers, while RAW would rather just not interpret it and keep the powers you have by default.
@ Helic, no offense, but your post makes no sense. Blood Money + Wish is being used to make Simulacrums and Wish very explicitly covers 10,000 gp of the duplicated spells cost.
You discussion of heal is completely off base, since as mentioned in this very thread, there are several summons that can cast it for you.
So... ya you may want to read how the trick actually works before trying to put the brakes on it... just saying.
@ Helic, no offense, but your post makes no sense. Blood Money + Wish is being used to make Simulacrums and Wish very explicitly covers 10,000 gp of the duplicated spells cost.
You discussion of heal is completely off base, since as mentioned in this very thread, there are several summons that can cast it for you.
So... ya you may want to read how the trick actually works before trying to put the brakes on it... just saying.
Seebs was speculating on how to cast Contingency with Heal, and I answered on that basis. Off topic, yes, off base, not so much.
Now if you have someone else on hand to cast Heal for free, life gets easier, I agree.
That isn't a problem at all, you just provide the rest with Blood Money. Wish acts as the spell you want but with the Wish casting time.
That is, you're paying 25*k strength damage with Blood Money, then whatever the duplicated spell's material component costs -10k.
*Edit: Whoops, number wasn't quite right.
It seems to be RAI that the caster of Contingency supplies the other spell as well, though it's not explicitly stated. Scrolls + UMD seems to be a valid bypass, if an expensive one (minimum level scroll of Heal is 1650gp). Given that this was supposed to be an exercise in 'free' Wish/Simulacrum making, it would put the brakes on the scheme.
The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).
No mention of you being the one to cast the other spell.
You must pay any costs associated with the companion spell when you cast contingency.
However, this implies otherwise.
The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time.
And this implies someone else is casting.
Anyway, since the strength damage does not kill you, just arrange for your body to be cared for until it recovers. Probably cheaper than paying for Contingency and either another caster to supply a Heal or a Scroll of Heal.
/cevah
Anyway, since the strength damage does not kill you, just arrange for your body to be cared for until it recovers. Probably cheaper than paying for Contingency and either another caster to supply a Heal or a Scroll of Heal.
/cevah
I don't think many would choose to forgo the Heal/Lesser Restoration. First off, it drastically slows down the ability to do this repeatedly (3+ times a day) , and secondly, who wants to spend weeks at zero STR?
This is basically a do-stuff-requiring-infinite-money-for-almost-free (there are startup costs like magic items for STR bootsing). Finding somebody to cast Heal on you shouldn't be a problem; you pay them with the almost free Wishes you're rolling in.
All in all, though, it requires a pretty lenient GM to pull off. Blood Money is a peripheral spell (from an adventure path) and getting to 52 STR requires a lot of other peripheral material (spells and magic items), and most GMs will balk at the whole 'free Wishes!' thing. If your GM is that easygoing, you've already gotten infinite money from Fabricate at 9th level or Blood Money + Masterwork Transformation at 3rd level.
Anyway, since the strength damage does not kill you, just arrange for your body to be cared for until it recovers. Probably cheaper than paying for Contingency and either another caster to supply a Heal or a Scroll of Heal.
/cevah
I don't think many would choose to forgo the Heal/Lesser Restoration. First off, it drastically slows down the ability to do this repeatedly (3+ times a day) , and secondly, who wants to spend weeks at zero STR?
This is basically a do-stuff-requiring-infinite-money-for-almost-free (there are startup costs like magic items for STR bootsing). Finding somebody to cast Heal on you shouldn't be a problem; you pay them with the almost free Wishes you're rolling in.
All in all, though, it requires a pretty lenient GM to pull off. Blood Money is a peripheral spell (from an adventure path) and getting to 52 STR requires a lot of other peripheral material (spells and magic items), and most GMs will balk at the whole 'free Wishes!' thing. If your GM is that easygoing, you've already gotten infinite money from Fabricate at 9th level or Blood Money + Masterwork Transformation at 3rd level.
To double up on this, really at this level and being a caster, you have someone or something on hand to heal you.
The bigger issue that prevents Wish duplicating Permanency from making spells costing more than 10,000 gp permanent, is that Blood Money can only provide 1 material component per casting, and Wish explicitly requires you to provide the whole other component if it is over 10,000 go (and at full value to boot). Though I suppose if you made the Blood Money to create the second component a contingency set to trigger after you recieve a "Heal" effect... and you had you healer ready an action to Heal you after you cast Blood Money... this could work despite being remarkably convoluted.
Also, quick correction, the target STR value for free wishes is 51 (25,000 gp = 50 STR, so we need 51 to maintain consciousness.)
Ah, I misread the spell in the SRD, thought it was 1 STR damage just to cast the spell, but it's only when you go above 1gp that you start taking STR damage.
Really confused as to why Blood Money doesn't cause CON damage instead of STR damage, though.
Really confused as to why Blood Money doesn't cause CON damage instead of STR damage, though.
I'd assume as a balance issue for in combat use.
Really confused as to why Blood Money doesn't cause CON damage instead of STR damage, though.I figure that it is because spell casters tend toward having lower Strength scores than they do Constitution scores, so that makes the effective cost of the spell slightly higher... and it is not really all that likely in-character that someone out there would pursue the invention of a spell they could kill them self with and have that spell pass on to enough different people in-setting that all pursue learning it to justify it being in the books.
The spell writer in question is already doing damage to himself to cast spells; he probably wouldn't care if the spell has potential to kill himself if abused (the logic being that 'you don't abuse it too much!').
Still, most other blood loss in Pathfinder is CON damage, isn't it?