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Initially I passed this feat up without much thought, but as I've gotten more familiar with the mythic rules and gained another tier, I've been looking closer at this feat.
The text:
Your mythic power is even more potent than that of most other mythic beings.
Benefit: Your tier is considered 2 higher for determining the potency of mythic abilities, feats, and spells. This doesn't grant you access to mythic abilities or greater versions of mythic spells at a lower tier than you would normally need to be to get them, nor does it grant you additional uses of mythic power or adjust the dice you roll for your surge.
What does this affect, particularly what is a mythic ability? It is not defined in the glossary.
The chart titled: Base Mythic Abilities does use the term, so let's look closer at what that does for us.
Gaining your first tier provides the mythic power (points) that we expend to fuel various abilities and references your tier in determining how much power you have to spend. However, the text from the feat clearly states you don't get additional uses. Besides, another feat handles that.
The surge ability is also affected by tier, but again the feat says it doesn't work for it and again separate feats exist to boost the surge.
So we go to tier 2.
Amazing Initiative references your tier, so it seems we have our first mythic paragon use. At tier 2 with mythic paragon we'd be adding 4 to our initiative.
Without wasting space, none of the remaining abilities from the Base Mythic Abilities chart seem to be affected by the mythic paragon feat.
Feats
Arcane Shield, Command Undead, Improved Trip, Two-Weapon fighting and any number of other feats would seem to benefit from mythic paragon.
Of particular interest to me is combining mythic paragon with mythic spell lore. While you can take the mythic spell lore feat multiple times, getting even more mythic spells is better.
So, the feats portion of what mythic paragon does seems the easiest to determine.
But what about the spell portion of the feat?
Animate Dead, Globe of Invulnerability, Saving Finale, and Wall of Ice would seem to be some of the spells that benefit from Mythic Paragon. Each spell requires reading the text to determine whether it benefits or not.
That leaves us with what is arguably the best parts of being mythic. Are path features, such as Absorb Blow and Fleet Charge affected by mythic paragon? What about abilities like Enduring Armor, Throw Spell, Adamantine Mind, or Divine Source?
Ex. The spell-like abilities granted by Divine Source would be up to level 5, if taken at 3rd level with mythic paragon.
I'd love to apply mythic paragon to Absorb Blow, Divine Source, etc, but the phrase may apply to specific things which are not explicitly explained.
The abilities such as Absorb Blow and Divine Source are called mythic path abilities. Note the word "abilities". Mythic Paragon applies to such abilities if they change in effect based on your tier.
Furthermore, if that ability has a tier-based "uses per day" clause separate from the use of mythic power, that ability would improve with Mythic Paragon. Mythic Paragon simply stipulates that you don't get the extra four uses of mythic power (nor the large surge die) you might expect to get with two extra tiers.
I am coming around to agreeing on this interpretation. Within the text the phrases 'mythic abilities' and 'mythic power' are used to indicate various similar and different things. Kinda like "the monster is huge" - 'Wait, you mean it takes up a 3 x 3 space or just big?" There is even a thread mentioning the overuse of "mythic power" from the playtest.
This presents an interesting choice for my PC.
I don't have the actual sourcebook, but to my knowledge "mythic power" always (or should always) refer to the pool of resources from which you draw to use your mythic surge ability. There may be some flavor text that refers to mythic power using the more abstract, common English definition, but the term has a specific meaning to rules text.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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What about Legendary items? Does Mythic Paragon work with that at all? Does it somehow make the item more powerful? I personally don't think so, but my group disagrees. Please let me know the reason if it is or isn't. Thanks!
So if you combine Mythic Paragon with Divine Source, does that mean you can SLA Miracle at Tier 7?
Other than the intro text for the chapter, I have not read about Legendary items, so I'm not sure how they'd interact with the mythic paragon feat.
As for Divine Source, yes, Miracle as a spell like ability is possible at tier 7.
Anyone else have a guess?
Mythic Paragon absolutely should work with the Legendary Item mythic ability. It should work as follows: if you've taken Legendary Item once, then Mythic Paragon automatically lets you add three abilities; if you've taken it twice (which Mythic Paragon doesn't help with), it lets you add up to Tier + 2 or 6 abilities, whichever is less; if you've taken Legendary Item three times, you can take Tier + 2 abilities or 10, whichever is less.
Does it let you qualify to take the incremental versions earlier? No. Does it let you get to the most powerful weapons earlier? Absolutely. This is how it interacts with Divine Source: it lets you get to high-level spells very early, but doesn't do you any good at higher tiers.
Note: no way does Mythic Paragon let you have more than the maximum number of abilities allowed by Legendary Item. That's shenanigans.
Thanks. Being it was a item and not personally you is why I had this question. Good to know.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I've heard of people using it to great effect with things like enduring armor.
I think it basically replaces Tier with Tier + 2 in all regards except:
It does not allow access to mythic power greater than your actual tier.
---So a Tier 5 mythic PC has 13 mythic power, not 17
It does not allows access to spells, feats or abilities that require a specific tier to activate.
---So Mythic Fireball cannot be augmented at Tier 4th.
---The Divine Source would NOT give you access to spells above your actual Tier. ( Sorry no Miracle at Tier 7 )
---You can not take a Tier 6 ability at Tier 4.
---You get Surge +1d8 at 4th Tier, not 2nd
With that in mind Legendary Item. You would have to be Tier 6 to take the Path ability for the third time, but at 6th tier, you would gain 3 of the 4 abilities. (assuming you had taking it twice already)
Edited for clarity
Just my 2 cents
Just to clarify my statement on the Divine Source.
Divine Source is a Mythic ability that grants powers based on your Tier
This doesn’t grant you access to mythic abilities or greater versions of mythic spells at a lower tier than you would normally need to be to get them
Divine Source Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains
So no casting Miracle or Wish at Tier 7.
^ That's certainly a reasonable interpretation, but not the only possible one. Another, perhaps more literal, interpretation is as follows; perhaps a dev might happen upon this discussion and shed some light on things.
Mythic Paragon: Your tier is considered 2 higher for determining the potency of mythic abilities, feats, and spells. This doesn’t grant you access to mythic abilities or greater versions of mythic spells at a lower tier than you would normally need to be to get them, nor does it grant you additional uses of mythic power or adjust the dice you roll for your surge.
Divine Source is a Mythic Ability, so Mythic Paragon should increase your effective tier for determining the *potency* of Divine Source. A fairly neutral definition of potency is from Merriam Webster's free online dictionary: the strength or effectiveness of something. As being able to cast higher-level spells, and more spells per day, increases strength and effectiveness of the Divine Source ability, I'd say this is related to Divine Source's potency.
Furthermore, the line about not granting things at a lower tier than you'd normally need specifically applies only to Mythic Abilities and Mythic Spells. While Divine Source is a Mythic Ability, the Spell-Like Abilities it grants are not, and are therefore presumably exempt from the clause. Note: Mythic Paragon would not let you qualify for Divine Source before 3rd tier, but that's something else.
Since the Spell-Like Abilities granted by Divine Source don't have any interaction with Mythic Power or Mythic Surge, they seem safe from the rest of the text.
Does it seem strong to be able to cast Miracle once per day with no material component cost? Sure it does. But you'd need to be Tier 7, and if you follow the Mythic recommendations, this probably places you at Level 14+, which means you're not far from having things able to cast it anyway; and in any event, you'll be doing it at level 18+ for sure. Is getting access to higher level SLAs early a good deal? Sure it is. But a lot of the Mythic feats/abilities are a good deal, and Mythic Paragon isn't going to help you at all once you get to Tier 9; it's a mythic feat you've burned to be more effective at lower levels.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mythic Paragon increses your Tier for variable effects. the same way Empower metamagic works on spells.
This would not impact Divine Source as it's effect is fixed.
LazarX wrote: Mythic Paragon increses your Tier for variable effects. the same way Empower metamagic works on spells.
Is there a link/FAQ for this somewhere? The text of Mythic Paragon doesn't seem to imply this.
Divine Source is a Mythic ability that grants powers based on your tier.
Tier 1 = 1st lvl spell
Tier 2 = 2nd lvl spell
ect...
The spell like abilities granted by Divine Source are very much a Mythic Ability. In fact they are the Mythic Ability granted by Divine Source.
Just because it scales does not remove the Tier requirement of Tier 1 for 1st lvl spell ect.
And having a tier requirement specifically excludes it from Mythic Paragon.
Clectabled wrote: Divine Source is a Mythic ability that grants powers based on your tier.
Tier 1 = 1st lvl spell
Tier 2 = 2nd lvl spell
ect...
The spell like abilities granted by Divine Source are very much a Mythic Ability. In fact they are the Mythic Ability granted by Divine Source.
Just because it scales does not remove the Tier requirement of Tier 1 for 1st lvl spell ect.
And having a tier requirement specifically excludes it from Mythic Paragon.
I understand the argument, I just don't agree with it. Rather than continue arguing the point, it's probably best simply to agree to disagree, unless a developer could be brought in to settle this.
To summarize:
Are the Spell-Like abilities granted by Divine Source Mythic Abilities for the purpose of Mythic Paragon, so that Mythic Paragon does not allow you to cast ones of a level higher than your tier?
or
Is Divine Source the Mythic Ability, and the spell-like abilities it grants simply incidental and aspects of the Ability's potency, so that Mythic Paragon does grant access to spells higher than your tier?
Short of developer input, I encourage GMs to consider this a rule-zero issue.
A little bit of thread necro here..
With regard to other, more mundane elements of having a Mythic tier, would Mythic Paragon (for example) increase the extra hit points your PC receives?
The text for the HP does say "whenever you gain an (insert path) tier you gaim X hit points"
So I suppose not, given it's not worded as hit points equal to tier times x.
But as for the rest of it, the wording of the feat seems to specifically increase the potency of the abilities you already have access to.
So in that case, as you have access to bonus hit points at tier one, should they also be increased? It is a Mythic ability you already have access to..
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Faylynn wrote: What about Legendary items? Does Mythic Paragon work with that at all? Does it somehow make the item more powerful? I personally don't think so, but my group disagrees. Please let me know the reason if it is or isn't. Thanks! Your group is wrong as the Legendary Item does not have a variable tied to your tier number.
No boost to hit points because while you get hit points ever tier, they are not based on tier level, but based on your mythic path.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Think of "Mythic Paragon" as a sort of caster level boost. Certain path abilities are tied to your tier level call it N. Mythic Paragon simply treats your N as if it was N +2.
LazarX wrote: Faylynn wrote: What about Legendary items? Does Mythic Paragon work with that at all? Does it somehow make the item more powerful? I personally don't think so, but my group disagrees. Please let me know the reason if it is or isn't. Thanks! Your group is wrong as the Legendary Item does not have a variable tied to your tier number. The word "variable" does not appear anywhere in the text for Mythic Paragon. This feat acts more like one of those caster level boosting feats than Empower Spell.
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3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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So I'm still not sure this has been clarified. I'm mostly interested in the Interaction between Mythic Paragon (Feat) and Legendary Item (Ex). How do they work together? Does the item benefit from paragon or not and why?
While what's posted here seems to clarify how it works on some things I'm still not sure it clearly answers the question. Can we get possibly get an official ruling?
Sorry about the necro post.
Here's how I see it;
Divine source and Legendary Item would be affected by Mythic Paragon, as both have their "potency" linked to tier.
You do not "get abilities earlier" than you should be able to (i.e. getting surge faster, getting access to 3rd tier abilities at 1st or 2nd, etc.) Nor can you augment spells (i.e. as mentioned earlier, no augmented fireball at 4th) as I believe the best way to describe it is those are "hard requirements", they're not linked to the "potency" of your tier, just your raw tier.
Legendary Item and Divine Source don't function that way, they're based on the "potency" of your tier. Now, you can't take legendary item more times without being the appropriate tier (so you can't actually take it a second time until 3rd, or a 3rd time until 6th) but you get abilities faster.
Divine source may allow you domain spells as SLA's faster than without it, but you can't take the path ability more times to get more domains/subdomains until the appropriate tier.
My question is this; If I took Mythic Spellcasting or Mythic Spell Lore, would I get more spells (say I took it at tier 2, would I get 4 spells?)
I personally would lean toward yes, but it's just something I thought of.
Joseph Davis wrote: Here's how I see it;
Divine source and Legendary Item would be affected by Mythic Paragon, as both have their "potency" linked to tier.
You do not "get abilities earlier" than you should be able to (i.e. getting surge faster, getting access to 3rd tier abilities at 1st or 2nd, etc.) Nor can you augment spells (i.e. as mentioned earlier, no augmented fireball at 4th) as I believe the best way to describe it is those are "hard requirements", they're not linked to the "potency" of your tier, just your raw tier.
Legendary Item and Divine Source don't function that way, they're based on the "potency" of your tier. Now, you can't take legendary item more times without being the appropriate tier (so you can't actually take it a second time until 3rd, or a 3rd time until 6th) but you get abilities faster.
Divine source may allow you domain spells as SLA's faster than without it, but you can't take the path ability more times to get more domains/subdomains until the appropriate tier.
My question is this; If I took Mythic Spellcasting or Mythic Spell Lore, would I get more spells (say I took it at tier 2, would I get 4 spells?)
I personally would lean toward yes, but it's just something I thought of.
Yes, the first time you take it you gain your tier in mythic spells, if you have MP then you'd gain tier+2 in mythic spells.
Also note MP makes the spell mythic cloudkill truly horrific, and fully augmented it's better than most 9th level spells.
At tenth tier would your amazing initiative be +12 then?
Ravingdork wrote: I've heard of people using it to great effect with things like enduring armor. Mythic Powers like Enduring Armor and Absorb Blow really shine with Mythic Paragon.
JrowD wrote: At tenth tier would your amazing initiative be +12 then?
Yes. Mythic Paragon, and most tier based abilities and powers, make no mention of capping at Tier 10. Both of the mythic powers I mentioned above would continue to scale.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
aegrisomnia wrote: Mythic Paragon absolutely should work with the Legendary Item mythic ability. It should work as follows: if you've taken Legendary Item once, then Mythic Paragon automatically lets you add three abilities; if you've taken it twice (which Mythic Paragon doesn't help with), it lets you add up to Tier + 2 or 6 abilities, whichever is less; if you've taken Legendary Item three times, you can take Tier + 2 abilities or 10, whichever is less.
Does it let you qualify to take the incremental versions earlier? No. Does it let you get to the most powerful weapons earlier? Absolutely. This is how it interacts with Divine Source: it lets you get to high-level spells very early, but doesn't do you any good at higher tiers.
Note: no way does Mythic Paragon let you have more than the maximum number of abilities allowed by Legendary Item. That's shenanigans.
Correct. Mythic Paragon affects the path abilities that specifically rely on a value depending on tier. changing that value to tier +2. Effects that kick in on fixed tiers, are not affected by this feat.
Legendary Item is severely breakable and GM's are clearly justified in not letting Paragon apply to it in any way.
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