So is the party at their exact wealth by level just after reaching a level, or are they at their exact wealth by level just before reaching a level, or is it some other point the whole party is at their exact wealth by level at the same time?
...or is what you meant to say "I use the wealth by level table as a loose framework for the total amount of treasure to give out during a campaign, but then award that treasure to the party without too strict a concern as to who has how much when."
I mean, I just hand out the magic stuff that comes up in the AP or by my assignment of what the baddies would be using, so this whole thing where you deliberately pick out treasures and know which character is going to end up with them sounds pretty complicated.
I don't assign treasure to individual characters. I tally up the total WBL of all party members combined they should have between the starting and ending level of the AP module and then go over the treasure actually in the module, then assign more or less random additional treasures (weighed towards not super useful stuff) to certain encounters until the WBL quota for that level range has been reached. It is up to the players to assign treasure in a responsible and fair manner to their characters, I only facilitate that they have enough of it.
How do you not get that not always having the time to go grab your upgrades is a normal feature of a campaign, especially the majority of Paizo's Adventure Paths?
How do you not get that this is only a short-time solution to going massively over WBL? At some point the party will get that time and place to sell their loot, unless you rewrite the AP, and if you take that latter option, people will see through your blatant attempt at denying them the actual use of what they looted.
People who follow WBL are being arbitrary.It's hard for me to imagine anything being more arbitrary...except possible the fact that everything that a party meets being within the level-appropriate range. That's about equal in the arbitrariness factor.
Yes exactly! Magnuskn calling someone else's method arbitrary while using an arbitrary method himself is just silly.
PC: I kill the dragon and claim it's loot.
GM: You are suddenly naked and unarmed.
PC: I should have just let this thing keep eating villagers.
Is this a joke aimed at that bad GM I had? If so you kind of missed the point.
Yes exactly! Magnuskn calling someone else's method arbitrary while using an arbitrary method himself is just silly.People who follow WBL are being arbitrary.It's hard for me to imagine anything being more arbitrary...except possible the fact that everything that a party meets being within the level-appropriate range. That's about equal in the arbitrariness factor.
Using a value assigned in the CRB and confirmed by SKR as being a rule seems a lot less arbitrary to me than just doing whatever I like with treasure. But that's just me, I guess.
If you are not handing out items that the party actually makes use of, then you cannot possibly have the end result be "at Wealth by Level" unless you include extra treasure to accommodate.
If you hand out 25,000 gp in items that the party sells and crafts into different items, then you have only given them 12,500 gp towards their wealth by level.
Actually, since I've gone in detail through four AP's by now with a calculator, things work out at about WBL + 20% for a four PC party, if you sell every item which has an assigned value for 50% and take jewelry/art objects/straight money rewards at 100%. I use the same values to get to the appropiate WBL.
...and if you aren't planning out which item is meant for which character, you can't even guarantee that the party will all be at wealth by level - One character might have twice as much as he should while others have half as much as a result, all because the player of the first character said "I'll use that if no one else wants it."
But the party has the WBL they should. My players are mature and experienced enough to deal with discrepancies between characters in-game.
Having better ways to spend your character's time is not a short-term situation - it lasts for the length of the campaign.
Not unless your campaign is on a constant timer and you try to keep your players paranoid about that all the time. Few AP's do that.
At some point the party will get that time and place to sell their lootSure they will... it's called when they are done with the campaign.
Oh, whatever. Seriously, man, I play with my friends and not against them and so don't try to do the "snatching away the candy in front of their eyes" thing. If stringing along your players like this is your thing, whatever.
Yes, a number of APs may happen to include sections where a party has some time to hang out and craft or shop. That does not mean that an AP must include such time, nor that the time available is enough for the players to craft or buy anything and everything they happen to desire.
Most AP's include such stretches of downtime. In fact, the only one I know which doesn't have that is Carrion Crown and that AP runs straight into the old "from apprentice to archmage in two months" problem.
I'd love to see a party without magic items combat one of the harder incorporeal creatures.Pick one, and I'll tell you how my party dealt with the last one we faced (and when that was, because we haven't faced them all in PF yet but certainly have in 3.5)
Or pretty much any party above 10th level handling an encounter at APL+5You do realize that, while it is common practice of GMs to use APL +5 CR encounters, it is beyond what the game actually expects of you to be doing to deal with such an encounter?
APL +3 = Epic according to the game - beyond that is the realm of stuff you decided to do even though the game encourages you not to.
How would you go about facing a CR 13 Human Ghost Sorcerer 10 with the Malevolence, Frightful Moan, Telekinesis, and Corrupting Touch abilities. It has +1 CR because it also has PC wealth.
Here we go.
Lord Malik the Angrily Deceased
Human Ghost Sorcerer 10
HP: 120
AC: 30 (22 without Mage Armor and Shield)
STR -
DEX 14(16) +3
CON -
INT 12 +1
WIS 14 +2
CHA 24(28) +9
Fort +6, Reflex +9, Will +12
Speed Fly 30ft (Perfect)
Melee: corrupting touch +7 (13d6; DC 24 Fort)
Special Attacks: Malevolence (DC 26 Will), Frightful Moan (DC 26 Will), Telekinesis (Recharge 1d4 Rounds)
Spells:
5th (5/Day)- Suffocation (DC 26)
4th (7/Day)- Enervation, Greater invisibility, Emergency Force Bubble, Dimension Door
3rd (8/Day)- Dispel Magic, Slow, Heroism, Displacement
2nd (8/Day)- Invisibility, Glitterdust, Resist Energy, Mirror Image, Shatter
1st (9/Day)- Mage Armor, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of sickening, Touch of Gracelessness
Bloodline: Arcane
Tactics: Scouts the opposition with Invisibility taking note of bothersome enchantments he'll dispel magic later. He keeps Greater Invisibility up and running and pins down the weak with Ray of Enfeeblement, divine casters in medium/heavy armor with Touch of Gracelessness. He'll attempt to use his Malevolence ability a few times while invisible and if unsuccessful will resort to more direct measures. Should he possess an opponent, he immediately has them cut their own throat. He doesn't bother to attempt to possess Arcane Casters, instead hitting them with a persistent suffocation.
Base Atk +5;
Feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), Combat casting,
Ability Focus (Malevolence), Ability Focus (Frightful Moan), Defiant Luck
Equipment: Headband of Alluring Charisma +4, Metamagic Rod of Persistent Spell (Normal), Cloak of Resistance +3
Belt of Dexterity +2
Hes a little weaker than he should be because I did this somewhat hastily however he could have a greater numbers of spells at his disposal.
With the adjusted statistics you have laid out I would recommend Malik opening with Frightful Moan.
I forgot to list his Familiar but I'm going with a Greensting Scorpion so he'll have a grand total of a +10 Initiative. This is pretty intensely dependent on who goes first.
Most parties are unlikely to carry multiples of their buff spells so I would be absolutely surprised if the cleric carries more than 1 invisibility purge.
Emergency Force Bubble effectively gives it a helluva lot of staying power.
Panicked is a brutal condition.
The campaign I'm running right now, I guess I was feeling like monty haul, so I picked out a cool flavorful item valued around 20k that I thought each player would like and scattered them around the map in various hordes.
They've found all but one of them, and each of them ended up being selected to go to the character I expected it to, except one guy randomly gave his away to another PC after one session.
So now there is one 5th level PC with over 40k, 3 with over 20k, and 2 with under 10k.
Everyone is contributing in and out of combat. As far as I know, none of them have audited their own or each other characters, and considered this imbalance of loot.
There are some other wildcards in play too, that were written right into the module I'm running. A minor artifact sword for example, which for all crunch intents and purposes is just a +1 sword of plot devicey-ness.
I knew it was potentially verisimilitude breaking to have exactly one big flavorful way over WBL item per player just drop, but I placed them ahead of time and let them be discovered over the course of a few sessions, and if it felt unnatural at all they haven't let on.
Okay... so you went and did all that work, even including a calculator in the mix, and somehow that isn't more complicated than just handing out treasure based on a process of Step 1) check monster entry for treasure (none, incidental, standard, double, triple or NPC gear); Step 2) check table 12-5: Treasure Values per Encounter for the current party level and progression speed; Step 3) Fill in treasure randomly.
It's a part of having six players, so I don't see it as much of an effort. Additionally, it allows me to work once on that part of the game and then concentrate on the other areas of the game.
As for campaign and "constant timer" situations, I only have this to say: I know from having read or written the campaign when the party has down time and how long that down time will be - the players and their characters almost never do.
I am not talking about one particular AP, but AP's in general.
The character will almost always have something in mind that they should be doing - unless the campaign is a bunch of adventures which each feel completely resolved before the next begins.
They should be looking into the antagonists, trying to sort out the nefarious plot, or sorting out the next step in stopping the big threatening event... which all prevent the character from thinking "my time will be best spent spending the next month doing nothing but upgrading our equipment, rather than participating in all the information gathering that everyone else is doing."
It is an artifact of the players being aware that the time they have is downtime, and not just the lull before the storm of seriously bad stuff happening, that makes them think crafting is a sensible activity to devote their time to then rather than when the trouble is actually over.
That is very much an assumption on your part on how the characters have to act. Other GM's prefer a more laid-back approach to their campaigns, because they don't want the party to level up from 1 to 20 (or rather 16-17, which is where most AP's seem to end) too fast. James Jacobs himself says that AP's are supposed to be written in a flexible manner in regards to how much time passes between modules, although that not always practically seems to be the case. Carrion Crown is an extended chase scene, for example, while Shattered Star allows you to give the PC's as much downtime as you like between modules, since there is no schedule at all to getting the main McGuffin.
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The moment I saw the treasure hauls in the dungeon that comes with the Beginner's Box, I figured the developers treated WBL as merely a guideline.
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To give another rather applicable example from one of Paizo's own APs, there's also the possibility that a character has 30k gold worth of large-sized +1 Ogre Hooks as loot. Taking WBL too literally leads to all kinds of problems.Like a lot of the rules in Pathfinder, WBL needs to applied with a bit of common sense added to the mix.
When we were selling those there was some commentary on who wasbuying them. On another note though i played in a game that took place in the middle of the jungle with a dm that i am pretty sure counted everything we carried against wbl despite having nowhere to sell it.sadly he also did 100% random treasure leading to the +1 flaming burst greatclub that was then counted against wbl. It still gives me a headach thinking about it.
Well, grantedly, designers putting in 30k of large-sized Ogre Hooks as a part of WBL which actually is supposed to be sold (to whom? And even if you found another rich tribe of Ogres, you sure that you want to give them better weapons?) seems kind of like a fail, unless they fully intend for those items to be not part of the actual WBL.
Pathfinder really needs to return to the automatic resizing rules magic weapons had in 3.0 or have some disenchanting mechanic, like we got in World of Warcraft. I especially never understood why automatic resizing was taken out of the game, since it only applies to weapons and armors, while other magic items still resize for the most part. Are small martial characters not screwed enough already?
Not that anyone outside of an Ogre would even want to use Ogre Hooks, but the principle counts. ^^
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The GM in question (yes he is real) is a twenty something year old computer repair specialist. To him WBL is a RULE and will be adhered to strictly. If we ever exceed WBL from treasure he hands out he will strip it from your characters arbitrarily until you are under the listed maximum for your level. Rules WILL be followed in his game or else.
That is incredible.
What was the GM's approach if you were below WBL?
Did it vary depending on whether you were below WBL due to using up all your consumables at the first opportunity, as opposed to if you had spent it all on holding wild parties in town?
In your situation, I'd have hired an NPC to follow you into the dungeon and carry all your stuff for you, in return for 50 gp up front and 20,000 gp when you got out of the dungeon. You must be below WBL if you have a 20,000 gp liability, right?
Then, explain to the NPC that you don't have the cash to pay him all in one go. Instead you will pay him 1,000 gp per month for the next 2 years.
Repeat as often as needed with additional NPCs.
Well, grantedly, designers putting in 30k of large-sized Ogre Hooks as a part of WBL which actually is supposed to be sold (to whom? And even if you found another rich tribe of Ogres, you sure that you want to give them better weapons?) seems kind of like a fail, unless they fully intend for those items to be not part of the actual WBL.
Pathfinder really needs to return to the automatic resizing rules magic weapons had in 3.0 or have some disenchanting mechanic, like we got in World of Warcraft. I especially never understood why automatic resizing was taken out of the game, since it only applies to weapons and armors, while other magic items still resize for the most part. Are small martial characters not screwed enough already?
Not that anyone outside of an Ogre would even want to use Ogre Hooks, but the principle counts. ^^
I think i read somewhere that ap are around twice wbl. I think this is to account for a) the pcs wont fidnd everything and b) if they sell it all they will...be at wbl.
Ive also noticed the aps often have themed items that out of context might seem high but seem to fit with the adventure.
Well, grantedly, designers putting in 30k of large-sized Ogre Hooks as a part of WBL which actually is supposed to be sold (to whom? And even if you found another rich tribe of Ogres, you sure that you want to give them better weapons?) seems kind of like a fail, unless they fully intend for those items to be not part of the actual WBL.
Pathfinder really needs to return to the automatic resizing rules magic weapons had in 3.0 or have some disenchanting mechanic, like we got in World of Warcraft. I especially never understood why automatic resizing was taken out of the game, since it only applies to weapons and armors, while other magic items still resize for the most part. Are small martial characters not screwed enough already?
Not that anyone outside of an Ogre would even want to use Ogre Hooks, but the principle counts. ^^
I think i read somewhere that ap are around twice wbl. I think this is to account for a) the pcs wont fidnd everything and b) if they sell it all they will...be at wbl.
Ive also noticed the aps often have themed items that out of context might seem high but seem to fit with the adventure.
Actually, about every AP I've GM'ed has evened out at about WBL + 20% for a 4 PC party and that was the stuff which seemed like someone would actually buy it. This is going with the assumption that every item which can be sold at 50% market price has that worth in the WBL value, so people who keep items instead of selling them come off better than people who sell everything they find to buy their personalized stuff.
I just want to say I hate WBL.
I just want to say I hate WBL.
Without it, how do you know:
With the adjusted statistics you have laid out I would recommend Malik opening with Frightful Moan.
I forgot to list his Familiar but I'm going with a Greensting Scorpion so he'll have a grand total of a +10 Initiative. This is pretty intensely dependent on who goes first.
Most parties are unlikely to carry multiples of their buff spells so I would be absolutely surprised if the cleric carries more than 1 invisibility purge.
Emergency Force Bubble effectively gives it a helluva lot of staying power.
Panicked is a brutal condition.
A lot of combat situations depend heavily on who goes first - and how effective that first action ends up being - so I don't see that as an issue, or at least not one that is caused by the reduction of magic items in the campaign.
Most parties are unlikely to carry multiples of their buff spells in campaigns where they are going to have magic items. The logic is that the spells aren't worth having around because they don't stack with the items - but if you don't have the items, you have plenty of reason to keep multiples of your buff spells.
Invisibility Purge doesn't really need too many preparations - it is a lasting spell, so the Ghost would have to dispel it which means another round spend standing around getting beat on (albeit at 50% effectiveness).
As for emergency force bubble, I had never heard of that spell and didn't find it in the PRD (I see now that its in the Cheliax book) - the protection it provides actually helps the party since the "best way" to defeat a ghost is to not even fight it.
I will agree that panicked is a brutal condition - and I love having the tactics of a ghost be to open the fight by making everyone flee at high speed. Especially because that means the party runs off, re-groups, and thinks "what just happened?" and might reach the conclusion that they ran into a ghost... which means they can start working out how to get rid of that ghost without trying to "kill it".
I was pretty torn between giving him Wall of Force or Suffocation.
Also remember that panicked forces them to flee in a random direction which could very easily turn into 1 fellow alone with the ghost.
The really awesome bit about Walls of Force (which applies to emergency force bubble) is that it doesn't block line of effect. Every round the party dawdles without breaching or fleeing from the ghost in an emergency force bubble is another suffocation being cast.
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I just want to say I hate WBL.
*cries silently in the corner*
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Also remember that panicked forces them to flee in a random direction which could very easily turn into 1 fellow alone with the ghost.
Actually it causes them to flee from the source of the fear, so not in random directions.
The really awesome bit about Walls of Force (which applies to emergency force bubble) is that it doesn't block line of effect. Every round the party dawdles without breaching or fleeing from the ghost in an emergency force bubble is another suffocation being cast
Also remember that panicked forces them to flee in a random direction which could very easily turn into 1 fellow alone with the ghost.Actually it causes them to flee from the source of the fear, so not in random directions.
The really awesome bit about Walls of Force (which applies to emergency force bubble) is that it doesn't block line of effect. Every round the party dawdles without breaching or fleeing from the ghost in an emergency force bubble is another suffocation being castA line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.
My apologies then, I had thought DDoor required line of effect, but it does not. I retract my statement.
A random path might take them further into the mansion.
Muahahahaha
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I just want to say I hate WBL.Without it, how do you know:
How much gear to outfit a new 13th level PC with? How much the vast wealth of the PCs is affecting their power relative to CR?
1. Approximately equivalent to the other party members.
2. Who cares? If the group enjoys a cakewalk, give it to them. If the enjoy a Dark Souls -esque grind-fest, give that to them. If they like somewhere in the middle, give that to them. None of which requires the use of WBL, just a decent GM.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find those answers to be unimpeachable. But somehow, I still feel better knowing there is a ballpark number I can shoot for. And that's all it should be, a ballpark number to shoot for.
None of which requires the use of WBL, just a decent GM.
That's true, but WBL makes it easier to be a 'decent GM', because it tells you where the calibration marks are, just like CR does. Want a hard, skin-of-your-teeth campaign? Go below listed WBL and use higher CR challenges. Want a cakewalk? Use more wealth and weaker monsters.
If the rulebook didn't have WBL in it, it would take a lot of experience as a player and a GM to know how much wealth gives the party a certain amount of power.
And that's fine if you've been playing for 30 years. But it makes it harder on new players.
The GM in question (yes he is real) is a twenty something year old computer repair specialist. To him WBL is a RULE and will be adhered to strictly. If we ever exceed WBL from treasure he hands out he will strip it from your characters arbitrarily until you are under the listed maximum for your level. Rules WILL be followed in his game or else.That is incredible.
What was the GM's approach if you were below WBL?
Did it vary depending on whether you were below WBL due to using up all your consumables at the first opportunity, as opposed to if you had spent it all on holding wild parties in town?
In your situation, I'd have hired an NPC to follow you into the dungeon and carry all your stuff for you, in return for 50 gp up front and 20,000 gp when you got out of the dungeon. You must be below WBL if you have a 20,000 gp liability, right?
Then, explain to the NPC that you don't have the cash to pay him all in one go. Instead you will pay him 1,000 gp per month for the next 2 years.
Repeat as often as needed with additional NPCs.
He really didn't care what we did with our gear. It didn't bother him if we were below WBL. The table lists the maximum gear we could have, as long as we stayed at or below it we weren't cheating. Not that we were ever poor... he follows EVERY RULE including the ones about how much treasure a monster should have or what should be available in any given town of a certain size. He was a total rules lawyer. He and lovable mr. munchkin absolutely hated each other and after one campaign refused to ever be in each others games. But then mr. Munchkin got his nickname because of his motto "Every rule was meant to be broken" so you can see why they had such enmity.
LOL I would have loved to have had you as a fellow player in his game. I have absolutely no idea what he would have done about your clever idea... who knows it may have worked.
A rule is a hard limit and a guideline is a soft limit.
It doesn't change what WBL is just because of what they call it, but the more accurate language would have been to call it a guideline "For best results stay close to this." Rather than calling it a rule which gives the impression "Don't ever exceed these numbers."
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WBL is a terrible metric because it doesn't track how effective that wealth has been spent. Someone with 50,000gp sunk into the 'big six' is more combat effective than someone who has sunk it into other, more interesting things.Which is sad, because "the big six" (which usually differ depending on who you talk to) tend to be the most boring items in the entire catalog of magical items.
I also tend to have dificulty imagining a character actually choosing something that's a completely passive bonus like a cloak of resistance +X, rather than an active ability. A sword that bursts into flames upon command is obviously magical and useful. A cloak that the greasy salesman says makes you vaguely luckier...not exactly so obviously magical or useful. Choosing "the big six" is metagaming, somewhat.
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Using a value assigned in the CRB and confirmed by SKR as being a rule seems a lot less arbitrary to me than just doing whatever I like with treasure. But that's just me, I guess.Yes exactly! Magnuskn calling someone else's method arbitrary while using an arbitrary method himself is just silly.People who follow WBL are being arbitrary.It's hard for me to imagine anything being more arbitrary...except possible the fact that everything that a party meets being within the level-appropriate range. That's about equal in the arbitrariness factor.
So your opinion is that it's not arbitrary because it's listed in Ye Olde Booke of Metagaming? (AKA the Core Rulebook)
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So your opinion is that it's not arbitrary because it's listed in Ye Olde Booke of Metagaming? (AKA the Core Rulebook)Using a value assigned in the CRB and confirmed by SKR as being a rule seems a lot less arbitrary to me than just doing whatever I like with treasure. But that's just me, I guess.Yes exactly! Magnuskn calling someone else's method arbitrary while using an arbitrary method himself is just silly.People who follow WBL are being arbitrary.It's hard for me to imagine anything being more arbitrary...except possible the fact that everything that a party meets being within the level-appropriate range. That's about equal in the arbitrariness factor.
It precisely the opposite of arbitrary.
ARBITRARY
adjective
1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
The WBL is based on the system provided in the rules of the very game we are playing.
So your opinion is that it's not arbitrary because it's listed in Ye Olde Booke of Metagaming? (AKA the Core Rulebook)Using a value assigned in the CRB and confirmed by SKR as being a rule seems a lot less arbitrary to me than just doing whatever I like with treasure. But that's just me, I guess.Yes exactly! Magnuskn calling someone else's method arbitrary while using an arbitrary method himself is just silly.People who follow WBL are being arbitrary.It's hard for me to imagine anything being more arbitrary...except possible the fact that everything that a party meets being within the level-appropriate range. That's about equal in the arbitrariness factor.It precisely the opposite of arbitrary.
ARBITRARY
adjective
1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.The WBL is based on the system provided in the rules of the very game we are playing.
Well then magnuskn is still wrong because going by the definition thenobledrake's system IS a system then and not arbitrary at all.
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So your opinion is that it's not arbitrary because it's listed in Ye Olde Booke of Metagaming? (AKA the Core Rulebook)Using a value assigned in the CRB and confirmed by SKR as being a rule seems a lot less arbitrary to me than just doing whatever I like with treasure. But that's just me, I guess.Yes exactly! Magnuskn calling someone else's method arbitrary while using an arbitrary method himself is just silly.People who follow WBL are being arbitrary.It's hard for me to imagine anything being more arbitrary...except possible the fact that everything that a party meets being within the level-appropriate range. That's about equal in the arbitrariness factor.It precisely the opposite of arbitrary.
ARBITRARY
adjective
1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.The WBL is based on the system provided in the rules of the very game we are playing.
Well then magnuskn is still wrong because going by the definition thenobledrake's system IS a system then and not arbitrary at all.
His quote compared using CRB as opposed to "doing whatever I like". Which isn't a system.
His quote compared using CRB as opposed to "doing whatever I like". Which isn't a system.
His quote was in response to the running argument between his system and thenobledrake's. "doing whatever I like" was him putting down the competing system, not literal.
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Arbitrary does not necessarily mean un-fun. Quite on the contrary. It may be MORE fun to handle certain things arbitrarily, by GM fiat or handwave. Detailed systems exist to handle lots of things beyond the direct purview of the PCs; GMs indeed MUST handwave most of that in order to keep the game from bogging down with minutia.
Whether or not WBL audits fall into the category of minutia is a matter of personal preference.
When you have a lot of experience GMing and balancing encounters over a range of different power levels, you develop a sort of intuition for balance. Like you know that incorporeal things will be more difficult for a low-magic party, or golems will be more difficult for a spellcaster party. You also get a feel for the demonstrated capabilities of a party. Character level is part of it. Wealth is part of it, too, though less important than character level. Player skill is a huge element of overall party power, and it can be particularly difficult to design challenging, but not overwhelming, encounters if you have very skilled players. Is there a mechanic for adjusting CR or balancing encounters if that's the case? Nope. You have to learn to eyeball it and use judgment. WBL is handy as a guideline, as a metric to measure the power of PC wealth, as a way to kit out higher level new PCs, and yes, to balance encounters and to LEARN how to balance encounters, but it's not a magical formula for awesomeness and fun.
Use WBL all you want, but realize that there are some folks out there who really can gauge party power and encounter balance pretty accurately without relying on WBL. Or, for that matter, on APL and CR. In fact, an experienced GM's judgment is probably a BETTER gauge of party power than APL/WBL.
The nasty bit is if any of the casters die it is essentially a TPK. Minus them running away after that happens though. Squish the squishies is the more intelligent tactic, to get action economy on his side. He has plenty of suffocations so its not like he doesn't want to throw them around.
The environment is his ally, easily he can maneuver through the walls to break LoS after casting.
Pathfinder really needs to return to the automatic resizing rules magic weapons had in 3.0 or have some disenchanting mechanic, like we got in World of Warcraft. I especially never understood why automatic resizing was taken out of the game, since it only applies to weapons and armors, while other magic items still resize for the most part. Are small martial characters not screwed enough already?
I don't believe there has ever been automatic resizing rules in the books, for weapons at least, and probably armor. If you can find some I'd be curious. 3.0 didn't *have* weapon sized differently for wielders - small characters had to finesse tiny weapons (daggers), one-hand small (light mace), and two-hand medium (longsword).
Scavion, it's not about whether or not squish the squishies is the more intelligent tactic - it absolutely is the intelligent tactic.
It's about whether the choices the GM makes for monsters result in the players having fun - which is a lot more nebulous since some players would enjoy the GM trying to target their character's weaknesses with lethal tactics, and other players would think of the same as a reason to find a new GM.
Me, I tend to purposely avoid the first two tactics I think of and go with the third - still something that could be considered intelligent, but not the most intelligent - so that my players don't end up feeling like I am trying to outsmart them.
You asked me to build a creature I didnt think you would be able to defeat with APL+3 and without magic items.
So I made an end of campaign boss. He is most definitely going to try to kill your characters as efficiently as possible because heres where it counts.
For the record, I don't believe a generic party of 10th level adventurers without magic items could beat a Glabrezu either.
He has plenty of suffocations so its not like he doesn't want to throw them around.
He's still just one caster. Readied attacks from the fighter have a decent chance of disrupting his high-level spells. +16 concentration vs. DC 15 + damage (1/2 if not force of course). A L.8 magic missile could make that worse than 50%. A vital strike two-handed power-attack would do about 20 damage before strength and feats.
Tough sure, it's APL+3! Not unbeatable.
He has plenty of suffocations so its not like he doesn't want to throw them around.He's still just one caster. Readied attacks from the fighter have a decent chance of disrupting his high-level spells. +16 concentration vs. DC 15 + damage (1/2 if not force of course). A L.8 magic missile could make that worse than 50%. A vital strike two-handed power-attack would do about 20 damage before strength and feats.
Tough sure, it's APL+3! Not unbeatable.
Prepared tactics only hold so much ground before that Frightful Moan goes off.
Lord Malik isn't likely to stay ground level. 15 ft in the Air is good distance so unless that fighter has a reach weapon or ranged weapon he'll have a rough time. Which weapon did the caster use magic weapon on? And he can always fall back through the walls. Though that is definitely a good tactic you bugger.
Lord Malik will be rolling his knowledge Arcane to figure out whats in place already then adjust tactics accordingly.