I'm pretty sure Paizo gives above-ABL treasure within their APs.Having run Carrion Crown, having played all the way through Serpent's Skull, and currently playing in Jade Regent - not necessarily.
It changes a lot from adventure to adventure, and sometime significant treasure can be of very limited use (like enchanted exotic weapons), missable (like the Figurines hidden in a secret compartment in CC book 2), or a large quantity of not terribly useful things (like +1 spears in Serpent's Skull).
And yeah, WBL can definitely be useful. If you're seeing a disparity between PCs who should be equivalent, or seeing a disparity between what the party can take on and what they SHOULD be able to take on, WBL is definitely something to look at.
I'm running Carrion Crown. I haven't seen anything above normal, yet, but I've been assured, by multiple posters, that they "give way too much." (I think magnuskun said they give typically 125% normal WBL, after doing a math breakdown.)
Having run Serpent's Skull, too, I agree with you. The stuff there is nearly worthless, despite its "value".
But going with what you said here means that WBL is not followed, and it's not the solid metric it seems to be.
If you get a ton of +1 spears, you're going to be really unhappy unless you've specialized in +1 spears (and even then, you're going to be wishing you could somehow liquidate them into something more useful). It's not a solid indicator of power.
In Serpent Skull, I added a metric ton of loot. I also added a ton of money-sinks. Rebuilding the <spoiler> for instance, and even the underground <spoiler>, so that they had to spend lots of their new-found wealth to do lots of neat things. But they got their excess wealth, which enabled them feel important.
THAT SAID. WBL can be useful as a very broad, low-accuracy metric. It's a way of "guestimating" what's going on, number-wise. Similar, in many regards, to the monster-builder charts in the back of the Bestiaries. They're meant to be (very rough) "big picture" of what's "likely" solid challenges for a (<slim?> majority?) of cases.
Just another point...most wealthy characters in games I run end up buying houses...building castles... etc...
Well true ... i grab the chances i have to create atleast one fusion of opera house/tabern/circus/theater... where i get mine and other NPCs to perform all kinds of things...
But you cant make one of these always.
You guess wrong. You are making assumptions that my opinion differing from yours means that my campaign is vastly different from yours. That is not likely the case - I run my game in a set campaign world as well, I am just aware that it is GM fiat that I say "You are 20 miles outside of Magnimar," and not supported by the rules of the game that the party be any particular distance from any particular settlement.
Only that you were implying that your control as the GM gives you the ability to deny the players the choice of going to an appropiately-sized settlement (if there is one within easily or moderately difficult to reach distance) and follow the city gold limit rules.
I could, for example, decide to have the party trapped on a hostile island with no local settlements of noteworthy size... oh wait, that's part of an Adventure Path, better not spoil anything.
And that works until level four when the party overcomes that challenge and moves on to the rest of that particular AP, which includes going to a settlement where they can sell their loot and get new stuff.
No matter the case, it is GM fiat that sets the scene - and that establishes how difficult it will be for the party to reach a settlement of suitable size to buy/sell what they wish.
The whole world of GM'ing is fiat. However, to tell a coherent story you need to adhere to maintain the appearance of not being completely arbitrary, which includes following game rules, being consistant in how you adjudicate things and trying to be not too obvious when preventing the party from doing stuff you don't want them to. If a party is only 20 miles away from Magnimar, there need to be happening a ton of things to prevent them from going there if they want to. If you are playing homebrewn, that's easy (for a while), but in an AP, it's more difficult to have stuff come up constantly and not lose focus for what the adventure path is actually supposed to be about.
This looks like you are saying that I advocated cheating in some way. Factually, I did not.
I have never cheated at a role-playing game - I see no need to.
What I did say was that, even at only a 25% chance of not getting what you want that the dice - devices of randomness that they are - may decide that you do not find what you want within the time constraints of the campaign... you know, kind of like how it is possible to be playing a high level fighter and still miss all of attack rolls in a round.
Well, I'll take you at your word here.
No, I am confident that we are not saying even remotely the same thing.
If you say so.
WBL does matterDoes not.
Does, too.
your methods just deny the player characters converting their excessive loot into items which raise their combat power level
I do not.
You certainly seem to like to imply so, however, with all the "Oh, but towns are not guaranteed in my campaigns!" spiel.
while I just give them enough to stay as balanced as this game gets.That, I cannot judge having not played with you as a GM.
I do, however, doubt it.
It is pretty clear to me that you think that the gold piece value of an item is a good indication as to its impact upon a campaign - where as I find the gold piece value to be the least relevant thing in determining an item's impact upon a campaign.
To try one last time to get my point across, let's evaluate the campaign impact of some items with identical gold piece values.
Item 1) +2 longsword
Item 2) +1 flaming longsword
Item 3) +1 giant bane longswordCampaign A - fighting all manner of giants) In this campaign Item 3 has the greatest impact because so many of the enemies face are subject to the bane property that you may as well consider it a +3 longsword with +2d6 bonus damage. Item 2 works pretty well except that fire giants are immune to its bonus damage (offset by frost giants taking more damage from it), but Item 1 helps more with the high AC armor-wearing giants.
Campaign B - lots of mummies, zero giants) In this campaign Item 3 may as well be considered a simple +1 longsword, Item 1 sits on a middle ground since mummies aren't so hard to hit than an extra +1 feels necessary, and Item 2 is "king" in this campaign because so many of the enemies faced are vulnerable to fire.
Campaign C - No giants, no fire vulnerable enemies, numerous fire resistant enemies) Item 3 may as well just be a +1 longsword again, Item 2 is barely any better (not better at all if every enemy has fire resistance, like an adventure across the plane of fire), and it is Item 1 that clearly shines brighter than the other two.
...and yet all 3 items have the same price, and so WBL values them identically - despite it being clear that their cost has nothing to do with how dramatically they impact the character's power.
Weapons are not one of the best items to gauge the power WBL has over a campaign, although players tend to gravitate towards the more universally powerful enchantments there, too. The other four of the Big Six items are a much better indicator of why excessive WBL tends to produce unbalanced campaigns, since they provide static bonuses which steadily increase with the items power.
I'm pretty sure Paizo gives above-ABL treasure within their APs.Having run Carrion Crown, having played all the way through Serpent's Skull, and currently playing in Jade Regent - not necessarily.
It changes a lot from adventure to adventure, and sometime significant treasure can be of very limited use (like enchanted exotic weapons), missable (like the Figurines hidden in a secret compartment in CC book 2), or a large quantity of not terribly useful things (like +1 spears in Serpent's Skull).
And yeah, WBL can definitely be useful. If you're seeing a disparity between PCs who should be equivalent, or seeing a disparity between what the party can take on and what they SHOULD be able to take on, WBL is definitely something to look at.
Actually, most AP's go with a WBL +20% scheme, so far as I have seen (and I do go through every module I intend to run with a calculator). The big drop of loot is usually at the end of the module and, yeah, James said in the past that the additional loot is there because they consider it likely that the party will miss some of it.
Ah, +20%. That was it. I'd forgotten.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'm pretty sure Paizo gives above-ABL treasure within their APs.
Depends. My players swear that Carrion Crown has been pretty light on treasure, and it's exacerbated somewhat by
But in general, they do. The treasure per encounter table also grants more than WBL, because it's assumed that some of it will consist of or be spent on consumables, spellcasting services, etc., and that some of it will be sold for half price. Assuming no ad hoc adjustments, if you carefully ration consumables and rarely or never purchase them, if you're able to make effective use of found items rather than selling them, and if you craft using found gp, you can fairly easily exceed WBL.
...there is just no guarantee that the party will be close enough to a settlement of large enough size to go there, shop, and get back before having failed at whatever goals they are trying to accomplish that aren't "go buy an upgrade."
And my point was, and continues to be, that this only works until a certain point. You can't arbitrarily roadblock the party forever from selling the loot you have given them. At the latest when someone gets Teleport or Wind Walk or Shadow Walk or one of the many other instant transport spells, then that game of lootblocking is over.
That reinforces my point more than it makes a counterpoint.
Weapons are, as I demonstrated, not a good way to take "8,315 gp" and say that it is or is not appropriate for the expect power level of any particular level of character.
It only takes that one "weak point" in the Wealth by Level system to completely crumble any usefulness it might have had - if Character A spends more on his weapons than he gets back in power, he now only has low-powered weapons for his level but he also doesn't have as much gp as it would take to get appropriately powerful other items... meanwhile Character B spent efficiently on weapons so he has more power there and more gold to spend on his other items.
Basically, the only way you can even kind of use a character's items to judge their power level is to look at the actual items and the actually relevant bonuses in the given campaign and weight them as you feel is necessary - leaving how much it cost to get something completely out of the equation.
More examples, just because I like to be thorough when showing my points:
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 gp) - or any other stat booster you like.
To one character this item is an extremely potent boost - the difference between a 20 Strength and a 26 Strength, making more of their iterative attacks likely to hit, and cranking up the damage significantly. It definitely alters the character's ability to overcome challenges.
To another character this item is nearly useless - the difference between an 8 Strength and a 14 Strength, making their attacks no more influential at all against most enemies, making their extremely low damage a slightly higher extremely low... but hey, it makes it less of a hassle for them to hang on to their own backpack while traveling. It certainly doesn't alter the character's ability to overcome challenges.
Alternatively you can look at it like this: Are a Headband of Vast Intelligence +6 and a Belt of Giant Strength +6 an equal increase in practical character potency for a Fighter?
They are not, and that is another example of how Wealth by Level (a measure of nothing but GP value of possessions of any kind) doesn't even remotely measure power level of a character.
Your whole point crumbles as soon as you are able to let go of the unreasonable assertion that you can prevent the party forever from selling their loot and getting replacements that they actually want. The game has systems in place which allow that stuff. City wealth limits, instant teleportation spells and magic item crafting all help players to customize their equipment.
Your assertion that WBL doesn't matter only works if your players allow themselves to be controlled in such a way as to not exploit those options given to them by the game.
Mind you, I am still talking about AP's set in Golarion, not homebrewn campaigns. Homebrewns can be rebalanced on the fly however one likes, but AP's have an established setting and will allow players to visit big cities to sell off their stuff and get new gear (or approximate the equivalent in the outlier cases).
One thing it seems that people are ignoring is this statement from the rules:
Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value.
This means that it is perfectly within a GM's purview to adjust the overall wealth levels within the context of the overall campaign. "low-fantasy" and "high-fantasy" can have different meanings - it could mean "hard" and "easy" or it could mean the GM will adjust encounters down or up based on the campaign.
Of course, I've put it in another post elsewhere, but an easy way of getting around WBL exploits is to just give the players XP when they get money in-game. Money is the thing that the characters can get, whereas XP is strictly meta and while the players know about them the characters themselves do not.
When they blow money on things that are not mechanically beneficial to the party then they may get "credit" since they are basically reducing their wealth voluntarily. The same thing might apply to consumable items that are used. You don't want players avoiding buying consumables just because they are afraid of falling behind in permanent items.
If you invoke this system, when a player starts crowing about how much money his shoe store is going to make him, you can ask the players as a group if they really want to reach max level just by making a bunch of skill checks, or do they want to go on adventures? This is something that will often snap them out of it.
If a player uses out-of-adventure income to support an out-of-adventure lifestyle, and only uses money earned through adventuring to pay for his adventuring gear, then in my books it's no harm, no foul.
Peet
And my point was, and continues to be, that this only works until a certain point.Wealth by Level must work at all points or it fails to work at all.
And your back-up to that argument is...?
I made the assertion that the party can not always go sell loot and get replacements.
Note the difference?
Alright, so what do you do when your group has overcome the arbitrary barrier of not being able to sell their loot and gets grossly over WBL?
Alright, so what do you do when your group has overcome the arbitrary barrier of not being able to sell their loot and gets grossly over WBL?...continue playing as normal?
Good if that works out fine for you. Do you GM AP's and feel the urgent need to rebalance every single one of the published encounters? Not that I don't have to do this, anyway, with six players, but I don't need the additional hassle of factoring in out-of-control WBL.
Do you GM AP's and feel the urgent need to rebalance every single one of the published encounters?Yes to the first part, no to the second.
Well, then my recommendation is to not grossly exceed WBL. If things work out for you with it, however, more power to you.
Has for me too.If things work out for you with it, however, more power to you.It always has.
Well, good for you guys, then. It has not for me in the past. Now, I am not claiming that it was the only deciding factor (class composition, number of players and correct CR calculation are all important parts of making a balanced encounter), but having let a party get grossly over WBL earlier in my time as a GM made a definite noticeable difference. I guess you can add "needs players who invest in the best equipment" caveat to it, but if you got those, you suddenly can have a situation on your hand where encounters you expected to be a challenge are serially overcome without much problems.
All I am saying is that WBL is a balancing factor which helps even out problems in keeping APL-appropiate encounters actually appropiate to the APL they should be at. Discounting it completely as an arbitrary number which can be ignored without consequence seems overtly dismissive to me.
Standard disclaimer that this applies mostly to AP's should be observed. I'm pretty sure that at this point I could appropiately re-size challenges in a homebrewn campaign better than five years ago.
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WBL is one of those (comparatively) simple means of gauging PC power. A character with 40,000gp of magical items is likely to be more powerful than one with 20,000gp of magical items, all else being equal. Similarly, a 25-point-buy PC should be more powerful than a 15-point-buy PC. Another measure is character level. Another is the number of characters in the party.
None of these methods are reliable, individually or in combination. A level 8 powergaming wizard might well be more powerful than two unoptimized rogues with massive wealth but no teamwork.
The question is, is it better to use an inaccurate measure than none at all? If you use one and treat is like it's accurate, you are likely to be disappointed.
If you are an experienced GM with a good sense for how well your PCs are doing, and it's all going fine, you can get away with ignoring WBL for the most part. You can probably ignore CR too; one group may lose against a CR+1 enemy, while another will be able to slaughter CR+3 enemies like cattle.
But it's a useful guide to the sort of people who scattered magical items around like confetti in old AD&D campaigns and then had trouble finding suitable enemies to challenge their players. The less experienced you are, the more valuable it is as a tool.
I would take the 5000gp platinum ring over the +1 ring of protection. Then I'd sell it for 2500, and buy the protection ring and 500g worth of consumables.
Actually, since it's jewelry, you can sell it for the full price and buy a Ring of Protection +1, a Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and a Cloak of Resistance +1. :p
"Pathfinder Roleplaying Game... it's important to moderate the wealth and hoards you place in your adventures. To aid in placing treasure... Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. "
...
Just because you don't use the WBL table doesn't mean it's not a rule. Some people don't use XP, but it's still a rule. Just because the WBL table is flexible enough to allow for low-magic or high-magic campaigns as well as standard fantasy campaigns doesn't mean it's not a rule.
1) A GM is trying to figure out how powerful the party is while building a suitable challenge. They quickly audit the (relevant) character gear, and if the party is over or under the WBL marker for their level, the GM will adjust the challenge up or down as needed.
For the record (and I know the conversation has moved past this somewhat), I don't see any real difference between SKR's position and part 1 of the OP, other than the decision of whether to adjust future rewards.
The actual rule is the bolded section - that's it. It's important to moderate. Note: to moderate (to control) does not mean it will be moderate (average). You can choose to run a very random game and allow anything rolled for treasure (or chosen by you of course), even if it's a +10 weapon at 4th level (something I have rolled. The key is that you have the control. To the OP: you have control and thus awareness, so can provide appropriate challenges. To others, they have control and thus the ability to direct it to the level they want.
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Yeah, when I do a WBL audit for the reasons mentioned in this post, I completely ignore things like chalk, backpacks, jewelry, etc.
I even waive these when it comes to creating PCs at higher level than first. When it comes to WBL, the only gear I care about is gear that affects the game significantly (in and out of combat).
If you ignore "irrelevant" gear, the whole process becomes easier, faster, and more accurate.
As it happens, that 2cp lump of chalk might be "relevant" but it's still not worth factoring in. For me, relevance usually involves either an action worth performing in the middle of a combat or a certain percentage of total WBL. Anything 1% of WBL or less is probably irrelevant.
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I once calculated my characters gold as X.5 due to picking up something that cost 5 silver.
When I went back to add the next PFS chronicle I missed the period and calculated him as having 7005 gold rather than 700.5.
Now I just round prices up to 1GP minimum, regardless of how much silver I lose each time. Better to have less than I should rather than more.
I once calculated my characters gold as X.5 due to picking up something that cost 5 silver.
When I went back to add the next PFS chronicle I missed the period and calculated him as having 7005 gold rather than 700.5.
Now I just round prices up to 1GP minimum, regardless of how much silver I lose each time. Better to have less than I should rather than more.
You would be a such a good player at my table, Tri. When are you coming to Boston?
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There aren't many places in the US that I'd actually want to visit, but Boston is one of them. :)
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I am in a party that is pretty severely under wbl. Purchasing of magic items is difficult. We have not been able to find or purchase a single magical piece of armor or defensive equipment (such as cloaks of resistance or rings of protection) except bracers of armor +1 for our arcane caster. We are level 5.
The offense of monsters attacking us is not commensurately lower, however. Our last fight, the enemy was continuously hitting AC 20+. My paladin has the highest AC in the party with an AC of 18. This is...a problem.
'Low magic' and 'low treasure' seems to be a popular GMing style. I've been in multiple games now that made it up to level 5 with *zero* magic treasure (and not enough gold treasure for a PC with Craft Wondrous Item to make their own, making the choice of that feat just another weakness, as you've wasted a feat you could have spent on Toughness). One level 5 character was still using his 70 gp worth of starting gear. Another had to be gifted a few scrolls (to add to her spellbook, the cost of which ate up all of her gold for those 5 levels) that the GM had deliberately placed in the adventure, since, two AP books in, there still wasn't any loot for a wizard, which, in D&D, isn't exactly the most exotic and hard to gear class one can choose to play (it's not like I played a psionicist or something!).
I generally play classes that aren't too dependent upon gear, but it does mildly singe my biscuits when, after a brutal fight, or one against monsters that require a certain level of magic (or very specific spells or items) to effect, like shadows or swarms, I hear, 'I didn't think that would be so hard for you guys' or 'why does your 5th level wizard only have an Armor Class of 10 + Dex bonus?'
'Because she hasn't got any rings, amulets, bracers, etc. of protection yet, obviously...'
Almost every AP I've played in has had a few encounters that, if you don't have WBL appropriate gear, are going to be meat grinders and chew you up. Incorporeal foes, in particular, are great at murdering mid-level parties with no magic weapons, but swarms, oozes, constructs, etc. can also punch way above their weight class against an under-equipped party.
I did not read this thread, but I just want to chime in and say I 100% agree With the original post.
Thank you thenobledrake. As a GM you can simply refuse to make that +3 sword available till the party is high enough level. You control both the merchants and the treasure drops... "But, but, we can craft it and bypass GM control!"; Can you? You still need to buy the ingredients to make that +3 sword. As a GM you can simply say that the rare element needed to craft at +3 isn't available at this moment. Now since the "Big Six" are completely in your control it no longer matters how much or how little they have in WBL, they won't be any more effective in combat than you wish them to be. Allowing you to keep them on pace with the expected challenges FAR EASIER than adding up the persons WBL values and hoping they haven't thrown off your calculations with a corner case or a big purchase.
Or, you can simply not give out excessive WBL, instead of arbitrarily denying crafting components. Because why do things easy when you could instead do them complicated and annoying to your players because you are being so obvious in craftblocking them?
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People who follow WBL are being arbitrary. You could adventure in a standard AP and as has been pointed out they give 120% of WBL. One of your players is careful with money and makes good investments placing him at say 130% WBL. According to YOU magnuskn, You would remove treasure from the next adventure that had been placed there by the devs themselves in order to force this character back into WBL. It would work and unless the player was familiar with that AP they might not even notice BUT it is functionally no different than the guy who deleted the items off my character sheet after I got past WBL. You are just being more devious by deleting them before I can grab them... in your game the dragon we fought would have no treasure to take since we were at WBL already.
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The best way to play is TOZ's way... simply don't worry about it at all. BUT if people being over geared IS an issue the fix is better and easier if you go the way thenobledrake suggests.
Do you folks not use the CR system? Can you imagine at all that it might be more difficult to handle certain creatures without proper wealth in magic items? Without proper equipment, it is difficult to gauge the parties APL. Some classes aren't too affected by it. Some are nearly crippled by it. Try playing a rogue with 6th level gear at 12th level. Yeah. Guess what he did in combat. Aid Another.
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I have played entire campaigns in which no one ever had any kind of permanent magic item.
Just potions occasionally found on enemies, and the scrolls the wizard could make with his scribe scroll bonus feat.
...and we fought constructs, and undead, and demons, and never had a problem at all.
Some lady once fell from a plane over a mile and wasn't hurt.
*Obviously* this one specific example means that nobody should ever worry about falling damage, ever.
Try playing a rogue with 6th level gear at 12th level. Yeah. Guess what he did in combat. Aid Another.I played a 7th level Scout without a magic item among the party.I have played entire campaigns in which no one ever had any kind of permanent magic item.
Just potions occasionally found on enemies, and the scrolls the wizard could make with his scribe scroll bonus feat.
...and we fought constructs, and undead, and demons, and never had a problem at all.
Scouts atleast can get their bonus damage reliably. That Rogue in 3.5 was stuck in a game where the DM has a big dice on for undead.
I'd love to see a party without magic items combat one of the harder incorporeal creatures.
Or pretty much any party above 10th level handling an encounter at APL+5
It is much more complicated to try and adhere to wealth by level than to simply adhere to treasure by encounter and the treasure entry of monsters/NPCs battled - and let the players use, loose, trade, reacquire, build, rebuild and have destroyed as they see fit.
Not the way I see it. I give out the WBL the party is supposed to have at their level by pre-placing the treasure they receive before running the AP (by which I mean that I have to up the treasure for my six players from the treasure the AP would normally have). As of now, we got a new addendum to the item crafting rules in Ultimate Campaign which limits how much a crafter can exceed his WBL, so I use that and that's that. Pretty easy standard to adhere to and I don't need to worry afterwards if the party is exceeding what they should have.
...and this "craftblocking" you keep bringing up makes it sound like you don't understand that my method doesn't actually involve any extra steps to deter the party from crafting beyond just having events actually happen in the game... you know, like happen when you are running an Adventure Path.
Why did you bring up the point about settlements being something not available in the first place, then?
Almost every AP I've played in has had a few encounters that, if you don't have WBL appropriate gear, are going to be meat grinders and chew you up....
I agree totally with Set on that point..some encounters are designed to challenge an appropriately equipped party. and if you dont have that equipment oh boy you are in trouble.
And I'm one of his GMs, who agonizes over whether I'm being too hard on the party (In RotRL) and throws extra cash treasure into the mix on occasion as well as giving the party contacts to obtain the requisite good stuff they need.
I won't go over the RotRL treasure problems here as they are well known
It is much more complicated to try and adhere to wealth by level than to simply adhere to treasure by encounter and the treasure entry of monsters/NPCs battled - and let the players use, loose, trade, reacquire, build, rebuild and have destroyed as they see fit.Not the way I see it. I give out the WBL the party is supposed to have at their level by pre-placing the treasure they receive before running the AP (by which I mean that I have to up the treasure for my six players from the treasure the AP would normally have). As of now, we got a new addendum to the item crafting rules in Ultimate Campaign which limits how much a crafter can exceed his WBL, so I use that and that's that. Pretty easy standard to adhere to and I don't need to worry afterwards if the party is exceeding what they should have.
This is another thing magnuskn's method is weak on; Crafting. If you go by Ultimate Campaign then your group of six, magnuskn, should be five people at standard WBL and one guy with crafting feats at 50% more than WBL. BUT you say you can enforce this by complex adjusting of treasures? HOW? You can't. Typically the crafter will either be helpful pushing the whole group above to some point close to but never quite reaching +100% WBL depending on how useful those crafting feats are or he will be selfish and probably be at close to +100% more wealth if he is careful about his money and has the same useful crafting feats. Reducing your treasure placement magnuskn will not result in UCamp's suggested levels. In the first group you will get everyone down to WBL making the crafter's feats useless. And in the second group you will get the crafter down to +50% WBL at the expense of putting the rest of the group below WBL.
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Almost every AP I've played in has had a few encounters that, if you don't have WBL appropriate gear, are going to be meat grinders and chew you up....
This is why I hated Pre-3.5-style DR. "Have a +3 weapon? It dies in two hits. Only a +2 flaming weapon? Rocks fall, everyone dies."