I'm exploring making characters and who doesn't.
So this is an obvious dip that could work so I was wondering if there was a consensus about flavor or legitimate power building involved with the Eldritch Heritage feat or feat tree?
Is it an exploit or a dead end or just tasty? (mmmmm)
Well, you need high charisma for the later feats. Really high charisma for that last one. And you get the spaced out over a while, so I'd say they aren't overpowered. They do provide some interesting options for characters.
Getting a Familiar is nice. Also, if you are a Bard or Oracle adding a Wizard Spell to your spells known is a plus.
it depends on your class/build...
if you need (or just have) a high Cha (pally, bard, oracle, some ninjas or clerics...) its a nice way to get an interesting extra power. for classes that are mostly SAD putting some points in Cha opens up 'face' skills and EH can give some nice flavor to a build. for classes that are already struggling to put enough points into all the different stats they need, its not worth it.
I had an Idea for a Chelaxian Alchemist who had a very minor infernal taint to his blood. He uses Alchemy to access the dormant power in his blood to work magic. Eventually the plan is that he goes into the Master Chemist Prestige class and at the same time takes Eldritch Bloodline - Infernal. The emerging personality for his mutant form would in fact be his Devil's Blood awakening granting infernal powers of the bloodline (and re flavoring some of the Mutation augmentations to be more devilish)
I went with Infernal heritage for my Evangelist of Asmodeus. Working out just fine so far.
I like Eldritch Heritage on a Crossblooded Sorcerer. Blood everywhere!
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Eldritch Heritage (Aberrant bloodline) is kind of weak, but an acid ranged touch attack makes a semi-decent ranged option (especially when dealing with regenerating foes). Unusual Anatomy isn't a bad pickup, either; being able to negate 50% of critical hits and sneak attacks at level 15 without spending a lot on fortification armor is pretty decent.
Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal bloodline) is an OK option for any melee-focused character (especially if already invested in Cha, such as for Intimidate/Dazzling Display). The claws can make a decent situational back-up. Strength of the Abyss is where it really shines, though; the increasing inherent bonus to Str is probably worth the three feats on its own.
Eldritch Heritage (Aquatic bloodline) is probably not too useful outside of a water-faring campaign, or if you expect to face a lot of oozes and plant creatures. Aquatic Adaptation or Aquatic Telepathy are similar; useful in a water-faring campaign, not worth it otherwise.
Eldritch Heritage (Arcane bloodline) is a decent choice for pretty much any caster that doesn't already have a familiar or bonded object. You can even have both an animal companion and a familiar if you want. Metamagic Adept is a great pickup for any spontaneous caster.
Eldritch Heritage (Celestial bloodline) provides a versatile way to both damage evil creatures and heal good creatures. Wings of Heaven can also provide a good benefit for some characters; flying is often useful and it can be used in 1 minute increments.
Eldritch Heritage (Djinni bloodline) is kind of weak, but makes a modest ranged attack back-up option. Whirlwind is fairly nice, however, even only once per day.
Eldritch Heritage (Draconic bloodline) is an OK option for melee-focused characters, similar to Abyssal. The Skill Focus (Perception) requirement will definitely be more useful. Dragon Resistances can be a nice pickup for the natural armor bonus. This might be the only heritage (IMO) where it's worth taking Greater Eldritch Heritage, since Wings does not have a time limit; although at 17th level, there are other ways to get persistent flight.
Eldritch Heritage (Dreamspun bloodline) can be very useful in combination with a witch's slumber hex. Combat Precognition is also a nice pickup to boost initiative.
Eldritch Heritage (Serpentine bloodline) is a nice way to get a bite attack with poison; not too many other RAW ways to get a no-gp-cost poison attack. Serpentfriend or Snakeskin are decent pickups, as well.
Eldritch Heritage (Starsoul bloodline) is kind of meh, but it's an area of effect, which makes it useful vs. swarms. Voidwalker is definitely worth considering, though (no need to breathe).
Eldritch Heritage (Stormborn bloodline) is an OK option for boosting your weapons, but nothing spectacular. Stormchild can be very useful for ignoring concealment from fog (including magical fog) or other weather effects.
Eldritch Heritage (Verdant bloodline) can provide a nice option for making disarm, steal, or trip attempts. Photosynthesis is extremely useful for spellcasters, especially if they use item creation feats.
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Aquatic Telepathy (Su): At 9th level, you gain telepathy (100 feet) and can communicate with creatures with a swim speed or the aquatic or water types regardless of intelligence. You may cast suggestion on such creatures a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. This ability is telepathic and does not require audible or visual components. At 15th level, once per day you can telepathically call and request a service from an aquatic, water, or swimming creature as if using demand or greater planar ally.
Note how the "and communicate with creatures..." bit is separate from the "you gain telepathy (100ft)
you're telepathic period not just with fishes.
Aquatic Telepathy (Su): At 9th level, you gain telepathy (100 feet) and can communicate with creatures with a swim speed or the aquatic or water types regardless of intelligence. You may cast suggestion on such creatures a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. This ability is telepathic and does not require audible or visual components. At 15th level, once per day you can telepathically call and request a service from an aquatic, water, or swimming creature as if using demand or greater planar ally.
Note how the "and communicate with creatures..." bit is separate from the "you gain telepathy (100ft)
you're telepathic period not just with fishes.
Ohhh! Never noticed that before.
I've long thought about playing either a draconic (linnorn) or serpentine heritage half-elf ninja. You get the skill focus for free, the skills themselves are useful, and you will probably get some decent benefit from the abilities.
THere are a number of fitting ones. Eldritch heritage (rakshasa) for a ninja namely.
I personally love the eldritch heritage tree. But not because it is over powered. I love it because it can add something wild and weird to what might be an otherwise bland character.
I would never take it fore something simple, common, or if the same as a magic item.
For instance: A couple people push 1 or 2 bloodlines for the +x to str. To me that is, meh... You could also just get a belt of strength. Yes, I understand you can get more total points over the course of your full career that way. But it isn't terrible noticeable in play that he is doing 3 points more of damage than would otherwise be possible.
However, my wimpy little sorc is surprising people when he trips people with the tremor ability from the deep earth bloodline.
The table was shocked when my friend's barbarian offered to take on the hoards of blast bugs (tiny beetles with a d6 sonic attack in addition to a bite). The bite only got past his DR when they successfully crit and the DR 5 vs sonic from the storm bloodline (iirc) meant he almost never took the sonic damage either.
Claws as a backup weapon when you are in an intrigue heavy campaign and can't always take your glaive to social functions can be a life saver.
I used them to great effect with the Raven King (mythic), a mutant servant of the Great Old Ones; Fei Kune, a war veteran and knight said to have been born of dragons; and Taur Thelyn, a wrathful warden of the forest known for his martial prowess and ability to manipulate plants.
None of these amazing concepts would be possible without these feats.
I'm gonna grab Orc Bloodline for my Barbarian in a Roll20 game for dat Touch of Rage. Optimistic Gambler for the win.
I'll probably never use the feat tree. It's become too tied with munchkinism for me to feel comfortable with it.
Think of the concept first, mechanics second. That should alleviate some of that guilt.
I find that a flavorful shadowdancer who takes the aberrant bloodline to represent his ties to the Great Old Ones to be FAR more interesting and enjoyable than boring old "fighter C" who took the abyssal bloodline just for the mechanical strength increases.
This is a mechanics first thread though. :) that's the problem.
What makes you say that? The opening question seemed pretty neutral.
I'm sure people take these feats for all sorts of reasons, not all of them mechanical.
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I'm gonna grab Orc Bloodline for my Barbarian in a Roll20 game for dat Touch of Rage. Optimistic Gambler for the win.
optimistic gambler, there's a trait I will never in a million years allow at my table.
If it were a feat, with a useless feat as a pre-req or some attribute unrelated to barbarianism... maybe.. as a feat...
If they actually printed that trait in pathfinder (it's not in pathfinder btw) I can't think of a single barbarian that wouldn't want it even if it cost a feat or two to take.
Uh its a campaign trait dude.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/second-darkness/optimistic-g ambler
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written for 3.5
-edit- yes I know pathfinder is "almost" 3.5 but it's not, and the fact is that trait's power lvl is off the chart compared with even a feat let alone other traits.
-edit-edit- further more, it was released a year before pathfinder core rulebook was ever released, let alone "advanced players guide"
written for 3.5
-edit- yes I know pathfinder is "almost" 3.5 but it's not, and the fact is that trait's power lvl is off the chart compared with even a feat let alone other traits.
-edit-edit- further more, it was released a year before pathfinder core rulebook was ever released, let alone "advanced players guide"
A trait thats really really good for Barbarians and kinda meh for everyone else. "...trait's power lvl is off the chart"
LOL - Every time I see this thread, I ask myself when and how "Eldritch Heritage" became a verb.
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A trait thats really really good for Barbarians and kinda meh for everyone else. "...trait's power lvl is off the chart"written for 3.5
-edit- yes I know pathfinder is "almost" 3.5 but it's not, and the fact is that trait's power lvl is off the chart compared with even a feat let alone other traits.
-edit-edit- further more, it was released a year before pathfinder core rulebook was ever released, let alone "advanced players guide"
If you would gladly pay for it in a feat (or even two) it's off the chart powerful for a trait.
Extra grit is pretty worthless for anyone without grit, doesn't make it a "meh" feat by virtue of others not getting an effective use from it.
Also as an aside, a few bard abilities are moral, same with cavalier and a few others... still though it's just stupid strong for a trait, even as a feat.
Here's a question, if I had that trait available to you as a barbarian as a feat, would you take it or "extra rage"
A trait thats really really good for Barbarians and kinda meh for everyone else. "...trait's power lvl is off the chart"written for 3.5
-edit- yes I know pathfinder is "almost" 3.5 but it's not, and the fact is that trait's power lvl is off the chart compared with even a feat let alone other traits.
-edit-edit- further more, it was released a year before pathfinder core rulebook was ever released, let alone "advanced players guide"
If you would gladly pay for it in a feat (or even two) it's off the chart powerful for a trait.
Extra grit is pretty worthless for anyone without grit, doesn't make it a "meh" feat by virtue of others not getting an effective use from it.
Also as an aside, a few bard abilities are moral, same with cavalier and a few others... still though it's just stupid strong for a trait, even as a feat.
Here's a question, if I had that trait available to you as a barbarian as a feat, would you take it or "extra rage"
I wouldn't take extra rage as a feat in my life. I'm going to assume you meant Extra Rage Power.
I'd take it fairly early. Barbarians aren't exactly feat starved.
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A trait thats really really good for Barbarians and kinda meh for everyone else. "...trait's power lvl is off the chart"written for 3.5
-edit- yes I know pathfinder is "almost" 3.5 but it's not, and the fact is that trait's power lvl is off the chart compared with even a feat let alone other traits.
-edit-edit- further more, it was released a year before pathfinder core rulebook was ever released, let alone "advanced players guide"
If you would gladly pay for it in a feat (or even two) it's off the chart powerful for a trait.
Extra grit is pretty worthless for anyone without grit, doesn't make it a "meh" feat by virtue of others not getting an effective use from it.
Also as an aside, a few bard abilities are moral, same with cavalier and a few others... still though it's just stupid strong for a trait, even as a feat.
Here's a question, if I had that trait available to you as a barbarian as a feat, would you take it or "extra rage"
I wouldn't take extra rage as a feat in my life. I'm going to assume you meant Extra Rage Power.
I'd take it fairly early. Barbarians aren't exactly feat starved.
No I meant Extra Rage Extra Rage
You can use your rage ability more than normal.Prerequisite: Rage class feature.
Benefit: You can rage for 6 additional rounds per day.
Special: You can gain Extra Rage multiple times. Its effects stack.
I still wouldn't take extra rage. Most Barbarians can rage for 8 rounds a day at 1st level. By 10th they can rage for 26 rounds. If you need 26 rounds a rage a day, theres something weird going on. Not gonna lie that is super overkill. If you rage for 4 rounds an encounter and have 4 encounters a day, thats only 16 rounds of rage.
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I still wouldn't take extra rage. Most Barbarians can rage for 8 rounds a day at 1st level. By 10th they can rage for 26 rounds. If you need 26 rounds a rage a day, theres something weird going on. Not gonna lie that is super overkill. If you rage for 4 rounds an encounter and have 4 encounters a day, thats only 16 rounds of rage.
that wasn't the question, if you had to pick one or the other which would you pick? Which would you say is strongest for a barbarian?
-edit- I still don't see why you're arguing something soo hard as a trait that's valid, when it was a) published a year before pathfinder and b) you probably don't even have the book for it, although that's just conjecture on my part.
Easily Optimistic Gambler. It has other uses than give superfluous rounds of rage. Is Extra Rage supposed to be a really good feat or something? This isn't exactly a good comparison.
Edit: Just so you know, I'm taking it to make the Orc Bloodline viable. Without it its kinda useless and stops me from making a little more interesting character besides every feat being spent on Extra Rage Power.
that makes your application even worse lol. So you can extend something meant to last at most 3+charisma times a day into something double or more....
Without optimistic gambler, Touch of Rage ends at the beginning of your next turn.
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that makes your application even worse lol. So you can extend something meant to last at most 3+charisma times a day into something double or more....Without optimistic gambler, Touch of Rage ends at the beginning of your next turn.
the fact there's no feat that remotely comes close to being as powerful as that trait, especially for what you're wanting to do should tell you something about it not being a good "trait"
It'd be an above average feat... but as a trait it's op for sure....
And again, it was written a year before pathfinder was published.
-edit-
it ending before your next round isn't a big deal when you're using it as a low lvl buff for your allies....
that makes your application even worse lol. So you can extend something meant to last at most 3+charisma times a day into something double or more....Without optimistic gambler, Touch of Rage ends at the beginning of your next turn.the fact there's no feat that remotely comes close to being as powerful as that trait, especially for what you're wanting to do should tell you something about it not being a good "trait"
It'd be an above average feat... but as a trait it's op for sure....
And again, it was written a year before pathfinder was published.
-edit-
it ending before your next round isn't a big deal when you're using it as a low lvl buff for your allies....
Yeah if I wanted to play a Barbarian who buffed his allies...you kidding me?
All Spells aren't created equal. All Races aren't created equal. All Classes aren't created equal. All Feats aren't created equal. All Traits aren't created equal. Gods know I wish they were, but its part of the system Pathfinder was built on.
All you keep saying is that its "op for sure."
It lets a Barbarian extend his bonuses from rage if it ends which we already know the Barbarian isn't lacking in rounds of rage. If a Barbarian gets forced out of his rage somehow (Superstitious) he'll keep the benefits awhile longer. Or he could just rage again on his turn. I have Raging Vitality already so its not like I'm going to die from falling unconscious.
It lets me build my Touch of Rage Barbarian with the Orc bloodline.
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the point is simple
you have found a trait published before pathfinder existed formally as a system.
You most likely found this trait on d20pfsrd. The context of the trait is most likely unknown to you.
Secondly we know traits are meant to be sorta like "half feats" and we know by looking at the traits that they are about as half as effective as any given feat (or even less so!)
This trait you have is more powerful than equivelant feats, and also does something not a single feat in the game does.
If you don't understand after the above explanation why it's easy to say "op for sure" you're being obtuse in this issue.
In regards to anyone with the orb bloodline this trait doubles or quadruples the amount of uses from your lvl 1 bloodline ability.
Like wise it doubles/quadruples the amount of rounds of rage for any barbarian capable of rage cycling. Cavliers, some bardic abilities, and a few other misc moral bonuses that are normally transient become much more longer acting without any great investment of resources.
If you do not understand how this is not a valid pathfinder trait let alone a valid feat (and should at least be a feat) this part of the conversation is for sure done with.
You drip with condescension in your post.
I am playing in a Second Darkness campaign currently. This character is for that game.
I can point out tons of traits that do things that feats don't. And there are plenty of traits that are either equally effective as feats or grants a bonus that had previously not been increase-able through other means.
I said before, the rounds of rage increase argument is completely redundant. A ragecycling barbarian is going to rage again on the next round if he wants to get the most out of his once per rage powers.
I'd compare this trait to Fate's Favored which is completely valid and incredibly powerful.
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I can point out tons of traits that do things that feats don't. And there are plenty of traits that are either equally effective as feats or grants a bonus that had previously not been increase-able through other means.
Maybe you should list those.... it'd make your argument at least appear to have legs.
Fates favored is actually probably one of the strongest niche traits out there.
in general for most it's a simple +1 to your resists (available in other traits) to a +1 to everything (with a luck stone). +1 on it's own isn't super huge in most cases, although it is helpful and they all add up.
-edit- Fate's favored is at least in an official for pathfinder document/book =D
A cleric with Fate's Favored.
Gets ridiculous mileage out of Divine Favor and Divine Power. Add in Halfling with Adaptable Luck and the feat that increases that bonus by 2...
Toss in Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier. Another +1 to your AC. That is far and above what other traits give. "For sure OP"
Traits that do things that feats dont:
Student of Philosophy
Armor Expert
Magic Lineage (People would kill for a feat version, incredibly powerful even allows for quickening of a 6th level spell)
Never Stop Shooting (Diehard for gunslingers and dies at -wis)
Rich Parents (Banned like everywhere, I wonder why)
Beast of the Society.
To name a few. I know theres tons of traits that do things feats don't.
Traits that are equally effective as feats:
Defender of the Society (Dodge)
Firebug (Weapon Focus)
A couple I knew off the top of my head.