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Energy Adaptation Scales free, provides resistance to all energy types, oh... and you can spend points to activate it as an immediate action.... 4th lvl.
deadly fear 7pts, spend 6 more and now you can instantly kill the critter for a +1 dc.
Psionic blast 5pts, spend 2 and increase DC by 1 and increase duration of stun by 1rd.... 30ft cone....
After reading up on these, if psionics are available, I wonder why you'd ever select anything other than a psionic class over a wizard or sorcer.
-edit-feat "unconditional power" spend 8pts, cast away despite being stunned etc! prereqs? nope...
The arguement I read was that psionics don't autoscale. Nobody sald they don't scale at all.
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the argument that they don't auto scale seems to only be very material in the context of blasts... in terms of control it's pseudo relevant, but most of their control just goes from good/effective to super effective/ridiculous.
Likewise their ability to nuke exceeds their counterpart in the casting world.
Their defenses can all be retroactive immediate actions just about for whatever they need. I'll admit the feather fall example is a utility example that is not as effective (although I've rarely seen a situation where someone fell further than 50ft...)
If we look at how many equivelent psionic points a wizard gets in comparison to a psionic....
1st(7) 2nd (21) 3rd (30) 4th (42) 5th (54) 6th (66) 7th (65) 8th (75) 9th (85) so total of 445. So when you compare them to a wizard they are functionally 2 power points behind at lvl 2.
A psionisicst (the closest aproximation) will know only 36 powers.
A wizard can theoritically know any (and if bond, cast any 1/day) also he has 1(7) 2(7) 3(6) 4(6) 5(6) 6(6) 7(5) 8(5) 9(5) spells a day he can cast.
So he can cast a total of 54 different spells a day with his bond.
of course we can argue how effective he'd be if he memorized 53 different spells for his daily allotment...
All told, if you want to be the god wizard, Psion will do it better and more effeciently than the wizard and argueably the sorcerer (really it will)
If you want to blast, the wilder will do it better but not quite as effecient than the sorcer, and totally beat the wizard.
Energy Adaptation Scales free, provides resistance to all energy types, oh... and you can spend points to activate it as an immediate action.... 4th lvl.
deadly fear 7pts, spend 6 more and now you can instantly kill the critter for a +1 dc.
Psionic blast 5pts, spend 2 and increase DC by 1 and increase duration of stun by 1rd.... 30ft cone....
After reading up on these, if psionics are available, I wonder why you'd ever select anything other than a psionic class over a wizard or sorcer.
-edit-feat "unconditional power" spend 8pts, cast away despite being stunned etc! prereqs? nope...
It seems you are cherry picking spells.
Now I will admit energy adaption is really nice.The second spell is just the psionic version of phantasmal killer and weird. Since they require 2 saves neither one is popular. And I think you read the power wrong. For 6 extra pp you get to kill one additional creature. I dont know the the "instantly kill" comment is about.
For psionic blast it is a 30 foot cone so anyone not failing their save has a direct path to charge you. Spending 2 points is also the same as using a higher level casting slot so the DC should go up, and unlike magic the duration increase has to be paid for with this power.
If it were a spell you would automatically the a duration increase, and more than likely they would have a higher level version so you would not need to take heighten spell, not that I think this would be popular as a spell anyway. Now if you could choose targets that would make it more attractive.
As for "unconditional power"
Only personal powers and powers that affect your person can be manifested as unconditional powers
So it is not like they can do anything they want, and you still have to expend your psionic focus. I am not saying it is a bad feat, but you should be fair and present the feat fully, not just the parts the look good.
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As for "unconditional power"
Only personal powers and powers that affect your person can be manifested as unconditional powersSo it is not like they can do anything they want, and you still have to expend your psionic focus. I am not saying it is a bad feat, but you should be fair and present the feat fully, not just the parts the look good.
I wasn't quoting, because the fact you can do anything at all during these statuses is an amazing thing. But yeah, stunned and impending doom coming your way, D-Door out, teleport out, invis, demi-plane...
It seems you are cherry picking spells.
Now I will admit energy adaption is really nice.
The second spell is just the psionic version of phantasmal killer and weird. Since they require 2 saves neither one is popular. And I think you read the power wrong. For 6 extra pp you get to kill one additional creature. I dont know the the "instantly kill" comment is about.For psionic blast it is a 30 foot cone so anyone not failing their save has a direct path to charge you. Spending 2 points is also the same as using a higher level casting slot so the DC should go up, and unlike magic the duration increase has to be paid for with this power.
If it were a spell you would automatically the a duration increase, and more than likely they would have a higher level version so you would not need to take heighten spell, not that I think this would be popular as a spell anyway. Now if you could choose targets that would make it more attractive.
I was actually just looking for spells that have a name somewhat close to the original. There's a massive list and just randomly selecting ones that look similar to a spell counterpart is interesting to say the least.
Take the eradicate invsibility that he was bemoaning. It's an ability that's largely only on the cleric list, and has a save so yeah it isn't great. I'm betting I won't see it very much in use. Guess Inertial armor and force shield are both worthless... oh wait, it's a ac bonus that you can actually get to scale! The point of it all is that for all the downfalls you have of being the counterpart of whatever psionic character you're playing there's simply no similar downside. It's like nearly anything you want to do as a psionic is literally the best way of doing it that I've seen.
Controll? show me a wizard that's better than the psion. Blasting, show me a character that's better than the wilder at it. etc...
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Technically a still spell lets you go when paralyzed, silent while muted, and so on. The wizard can do it too.
Paralyzed you can't perform actions.
Anything as a wizard requires you to have prepared in advance for it, or have a requisite rod on hand (and able to use)
Sorcs of course have to spend full round to do.
Psionics, yeah they have to spend a full round... but they could have spent that full round before combat to "get in the zone"
Blasting, show me a character that's better than the wilder at it. etc...
At 1st level.
Human Wizard. Spell Focus(Evocation), Spell Specialization(Burning Hands).
So, for a first level spell, our wizard is dealing 3d4+1 fire damage, half on a successful Reflex save. DC 15 or higher for that first level is common, if not low, needing only a 14 Intelligence.
At level 2, take one level in Crossblooded(Draconic/Orc) Sorcerer, and pick Burning Hands as your first level spell known.
Damage is now 3d4+7. Minimum dame: 10, or 5 on a successful saving throw.
Edit: at level 10, this is even better. Spell Specialization has moved on to Fireball, but by adding Intensify Spell to Burning Hands, using Wizard slots, the damage is 9d4+22. Minimum damage is 31, or 15 on a successful saving throw. Of course, by now energy resistance and immunities are coming into play by now, but an Evomer(Admixture) can handle that easily.
Dot.
For a good example of what a blaster wizard is capable of doing (and I mostly sure the psion isn't going to best her) there is Sampy Mc Splosion, in Brewer's guide to Blockbuster Wizard. That's quite blasty.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pwg7?Brewers-Guide-to-the-Blockbuster-Wizard
Heh, my example is based off of the Blockbuster Wizard, actually. ^-^
Yes, I just wanted to provide a full build. 1st level is a little low to compare the classes.
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Long story short, you believe that the psion is a better caster for a one shot combat, right?
Obviously it can go this way or that based on circumstance, but yeah... they're pretty awesome for one shot combats at level 20 with no preparations whatsoever!!!
But as people have stated, they don't have an unlimited supply of PP. They run out VERY quickly to be that awesome. Any they cannot buy a bunch of 25gp items to replenish themselves (I read the whole forum and you never seemed to concede to that point). When they're out, they're out.
...sure there are power stones... there are scrolls too
...sure there are cognizance crystals... there are pearls of power too
remember that you may only use one at a time, not a whole handful.
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one of my favorite examples that you keep giving and not understanding is the 'spend +2pp for a +1DC' which is exactly like Highten Spell. I mean sure they don't need the feat, and sure they don't need to prepare it beforehand (and that's AWESOME!!), but now they're used up their psionic focus and just screwed the action economy pooch.
and yes yes yes, you can have a psi-crystal that carries your backup focus... for 2 feats...
All in all, i LOVE PSIONS!!!!!
THEY"RE AWESOME!!!
Some of the best fun I've ever had is being a baddass psion telepath!!
Remember that power (3rd level i think) that let you act out of turn?!?!?!? oooh man, that was some delicious cheese!!!
But, I made my first 3.0 Necromancer on August 10th, 2000 and the class has held a certain place in my heart since then!!!
I think the OP should list general points instead of trying to find certain spells. Then we can handle each case specifically instead of jumping around just looking at every feat or spell.
I wasn't quoting, because the fact you can do anything at all during these statuses is an amazing thing. But yeah, stunned and impending doom coming your way, D-Door out, teleport out, invis, demi-plane...
By 'D-Door out' i believe you mean Fold Space
- That requires level 15 to do [power 7 + unconditional power 8]By 'teleport out' I believe you mean Planar Travel since they don't have teleport... but still [power 9 + unconditional 8 = 17th level]
..... or you mean Psychoport which ONLY a Nomad has [still lv 17]
By 'invis' which power are you referring to? they have NO form of invisibility? They have Cloud Mind...
Cloud Mind
Discipline telepathy [mind-affecting]
Level cryptic 2, gifted blade 2, marksman 2, psion/wilder 2
MANIFESTING
Display None
Manifesting Time 1 standard action
EFFECT
Range Close (25 ft. +5 ft./2 levels)
Target One creature
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Power Resistance Yes
Power Points 3
DESCRIPTION
You make yourself completely undetectable to the subject by erasing all awareness of your presence from its mind. This power has the following effects.
First, you are invisible and inaudible to the creature. It cannot even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means.
Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends.
If you take an action that creates a sustained and obvious change in the subject’s environment—for example, attacking a creature aside from the subject or moving a large or attended object the subject can see—the subject immediately gains a new saving throw against the power. An ally of the subject creature that is able to see or perceive you can use a move action to warn the subject and thereby grant it a new saving throw.
Augment This power may be augmented in one or both of the following ways.
If you spend 6 additional power points, you may manifest this power as an immediate action.
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect one additional creature.
If you spend 8 additional power points, this power effects one creature per manifester level.
In addition, for every 2 power points spent on any of the above options, the power’s save DC increases by 1.
But that only effects 1 target unmodified, and they get a save, and you cannot unconditional that...
And by 'demi-plane...' you mean Genesis which requires level 25 to do what your asking...
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still awesome to do the powers unconditionally when you finally hit those levels though!!!
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Just drop it, guys. This guy is obviously just trolling and only seeing what he chooses to see. He's doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and going 'LALALALALA I can't hear you'.
This guy's skull is completely fact-resistant. And he *still* hasn't shown us the build, which frankly implies to me that he's going Full Lying Troll and this, in fact, never happened.
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I think the OP should list general points instead of trying to find certain spells. Then we can handle each case specifically instead of jumping around just looking at every feat or spell.
Good point, but after having read this whole forum, I'm wondering if this person is truly having a hard time understand the points that I believe are clearly laid out (in which case I someone here can explain in a way he/she finds to be clearly laid out)
OR
they are deliberately 'trolling' for their own amusement...
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Either way, I'm not one for forcing my view on others, so I'm done with this forum. Best of luck to the rest of you!!! And whether it be a Fireball or an Energy Burst, I hope you lay your enemies low!!!
Just drop it, guys. This guy is obviously just trolling and only seeing what he chooses to see. He's doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and going 'LALALALALA I can't hear you'.
This guy's skull is completely fact-resistant. And he *still* hasn't shown us the build, which frankly implies to me that he's going Full Lying Troll and this, in fact, never happened.
he wasn't the DM in this scenario.. We was the PC and gave us an example of what he encountered... So he probably doesn't have the full build on the original example.
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Though I DO agree that a build should be made to prove your point. But not everyone has time or desire to do that.
So, if he doesn't have the build, how does he know the rules were followed? His DM may have been mistaken, or outright cheated. Either way, he has zero evidence to support his position of ignorance.
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So, if he doesn't have the build, how does he know the rules were followed? His DM may have been mistaken, or outright cheated. Either way, he has zero evidence to support his position of ignorance.
For someone attempting to be "helpful" you have some aweful aggressive language and frank brow beating going on. I've seen two things in game that don't follow the conventions of pathfinder as I know it. This seems out of place in pathfinder and frankly unbalanced imo.
Let's look at the dull grey ioun stones. Do they out right give you back a point or no, the reading seems to indicate they do. that they aren't power stones or cognizance crystals.
Something to consider is that psionics are supposed to be different. It was an alternative choice to your vancian casting you usually got. What exactly are you talking about when you say "don't follow conventions" it helps if you state what your talking about instead of just saying they're imbalanced because unnamed reasons.
If I understand correctly the dull gray ioun stone is meant to be used like a scroll.
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what makes you think that it is meant to be used as a scroll? I don't have access to a pdf of psionics unlimited, so can't make a comment as to the actual text, but the d20pfsrd.com states that it "provides 1 power point"
Where the items that act as wands Dorjes, refer to "contain a power" And power stones "contain a power"
But it isn't a 1 pp discount, it is a 1st level unaugmented power. Period.
Because you can't spend pp from multiple sources at one time.
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Thanks.
Reading that and following links to this:
Using Stored Power Points
A variety of psionic items exist to store power points for later use, in particular a storage device called a cognizance crystal. Regardless of what sort of item stores the power points, all psionic characters must follow strict rules when tapping stored power points.
When using power points from a storage item to manifest a power, a psionic character may not pay the power’s cost with power points from more than one source. He must either use an item, his own power point reserve, or some other discrete power point source to pay the manifestation cost. Most power point storage devices allow psionic characters to “recharge” the item with their own power points. Doing this depletes the character’s power point reserve on a 1-for-1 basis as if he had manifested a power; however, those power points remain indefinitely stored. The opposite is not true—Psionic characters may not use power points stored in a storage item to replenish their own power point reserves.
That seems pretty clear. It doesn't matter whether a dull gray ioun stone is treated "as if cognizance crystal", it's still a storage item. You may not use it to replenish your power point reserves. You can't use it together with power points from another source.
All you can do with it is use it to manifest a power that costs one power point. Which still isn't a bad deal for 25gp.But it's not a discount on bigger powers. It's not a way to recharge yourself. It's just a way to use your weakest powers without draining your own points.
Snark is snark, how about instead of (like most the people here have been doing) and saying "hermerged dood you're wrong it's balanced, and no it doesn't work like that" start quoting some rules like the jeff did.
I've stated at least a couple times I don't know how psionics work, they seem to ignore certain standard conventions, and they seem OP in the aspects I've seen them.
Now we're talking about replenishing power points or using them for discounts, no one once quoted a GD rule from this thing. I've found it though and I'll quote it now.
When using power points from a storage item to manifest a power, a psionic character may not pay the power’s cost with power points from more than one source. He must either use an item, his own power point reserve, or some other discrete power point source to pay the manifestation cost.
See how easy that is, I found a point you've made and looked up the rules and found it and quoted it rather than paraphrasing and saying "trust me dood"
Likewise the people making claims they are so limited, I've been looking and wilders (the nukers) can apparently nuke for free/better than you'd first think because of their class abilities. I keep getting told "prove it's op provide a build" and that's ridiculous. I know nothing about psionics except what I've learned here so far and my own readings since I started this thread. It's like asking a twelve year old to go play basketball against the chicago bulls, it's not going to work he just doesn't have the skills, experience, (and flawed analogy so heigh/growth) for it.
-edit- I realise you quoted the rule, it's more for the others above, and didn't format that well.
Wait, how are you getting that a class can nuke for free and better?
Now another question, even though you can't pay for the manifestation cost from more than one source (yourself or a storage device)
It doesn't say that you can't then augment it from a different source. IE manifest it with a cognizense stone, then augment it with your own pool.
The manifestation cost is the cost of the power + augmentation. Like I said, easier to think of powers differently than spells and that augmented is similar to casting a higher level spell. There isn't a hold person, and hold monster, its a hold person that is augmented to be hold monster, if that makes sense.
A lot of the answers to your questions are really found in the base rules, which is why its probably best that you look them over instead of exclaim that they're OP without knowing anything about them. Here is a list of common misconceptions about psionics you might want to look over.
-edit-
although looking, it states the rainbow is "as if cognizance crystal in the footnote" even though the dull grey isn't, I'd assume it operates the same way. So it's not super OP, but it's certainly a 1 power point discount per power for 25gold.
Are you going to reply to this post?
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Now another question, even though you can't pay for the manifestation cost from more than one source (yourself or a storage device)
It doesn't say that you can't then augment it from a different source. IE manifest it with a cognizense stone, then augment it with your own pool.
You are paying for it when you augment. Just because you go past the minimum amount of PP required to use a power, that does not mean any PP you use to augment the power can come from a different source.
As an example, let say I want to buy a car with just the basics, but then I change my mind to say I was the car of have all of the options.
Let's say there is a law that says all money must come from one source when I pay for the car, such as a one back account. Yeah I might have a 2nd checking account, but just because I choose to get the upgraded car, that does not mean I get to pay for the upgrades from my 2nd account. Those upgrades are still me paying for the car, and not considered to be a second purchase, so the upgrade money still has to come from that first account.
Lantzkev, the point of the pp storing items is not to use them to augment powers or have them act like psionic versions of metamagic rods. The idea is to use them instead of using your own PP, but they can not be used in conjunction with your own PP to manifest one power.
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Are you going to reply to this post?-edit-
although looking, it states the rainbow is "as if cognizance crystal in the footnote" even though the dull grey isn't, I'd assume it operates the same way. So it's not super OP, but it's certainly a 1 power point discount per power for 25gold.
Why would I reply to a post that has no real question, that's just antagonistic without any real content? It's best to let that kind of bs go unanswered normally.
If you mean the addressing specific points... that's what I'm doing currently or are you just ignoring that?
The manifestation cost is the cost of the power + augmentation. Like I said, easier to think of powers differently than spells and that augmented is similar to casting a higher level spell. There isn't a hold person, and hold monster, its a hold person that is augmented to be hold monster, if that makes sense.
Reading it on the d20pfsrd, it doesn't make it clear that manifesting a power and augmenting it are all part of manifesting, that's why I was asking. Having never worked with it, surface reading makes it seem like they are two seperate things.
Are you going to reply to this post?-edit-
although looking, it states the rainbow is "as if cognizance crystal in the footnote" even though the dull grey isn't, I'd assume it operates the same way. So it's not super OP, but it's certainly a 1 power point discount per power for 25gold.Why would I reply to a post that has no real question, that's just antagonistic without any real content? It's best to let that kind of bs go unanswered normally.
If you mean the addressing specific points... that's what I'm doing currently or are you just ignoring that?
The manifestation cost is the cost of the power + augmentation. Like I said, easier to think of powers differently than spells and that augmented is similar to casting a higher level spell. There isn't a hold person, and hold monster, its a hold person that is augmented to be hold monster, if that makes sense.Reading it on the d20pfsrd, it doesn't make it clear that manifesting a power and augmenting it are all part of manifesting, that's why I was asking. Having never worked with it, surface reading makes it seem like they are two seperate things.
Yes, I meant address those points by either countering them or admitting he was right. I did not see you address them. I will go back and look again. I also linked to the wrong post.
I meant this one--> This post is him countering and not being snarky.
Just in case I messed up again this verbage(quoted below) should be in the post I am trying to link to:
should be in the reference post-->"By 'D-Door out' i believe you mean Fold Space
- That requires level 15 to do [power 7 + unconditional power 8]"
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Are you going to reply to this post?-edit-
although looking, it states the rainbow is "as if cognizance crystal in the footnote" even though the dull grey isn't, I'd assume it operates the same way. So it's not super OP, but it's certainly a 1 power point discount per power for 25gold.Why would I reply to a post that has no real question, that's just antagonistic without any real content? It's best to let that kind of bs go unanswered normally.
If you mean the addressing specific points... that's what I'm doing currently or are you just ignoring that?
The manifestation cost is the cost of the power + augmentation. Like I said, easier to think of powers differently than spells and that augmented is similar to casting a higher level spell. There isn't a hold person, and hold monster, its a hold person that is augmented to be hold monster, if that makes sense.Reading it on the d20pfsrd, it doesn't make it clear that manifesting a power and augmenting it are all part of manifesting, that's why I was asking. Having never worked with it, surface reading makes it seem like they are two seperate things.Yes, I meant address those points by either countering them or admitting he was right. I did not see you address them. I will go back and look again. I also linked to the wrong post.
I meant this one--> This post is him countering and not being snarky.
Just in case I messed up again this verbage(quoted below) should be in the post I am trying to link to:should be in the reference post-->"By 'D-Door out' i believe you mean Fold Space
- That requires level 15 to do [power 7 + unconditional power 8]"
your first link was to his "trolling for amusement" and "we all said it's not op so it must not be op"(post 71, rather than 75), as for those points, again we're talking about higher lvl play, so his "again lvl 17" isn't a relevant point. Compared to a wizard of that lvl, it's doing more/better control, contingencies, etc from the looks of it.
I've still yet to see the argument about how they know so few being a real hinderance when those few they know are relevant at all levels as well.
-edit-I'm still looking for some verbage in the rules somewhere that establishes that augmenting is part of the manifestation cost. The way they word it, it sounds like it's a different thing than manifesting, only thing I found that really indicates it's not is rather minor point towards end where it says "total cost when manifesting"
Why don't you go look through all the information by dreamscarred press OGle, dreamscarred press itself, and 3.5 OGL before making commentary about psionics. This isn't an uncommon topic, and it really helps to look at the material.
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because to do so while I'm at work requires me to bypass the firewall.
I'm starting to feel like the overall system isn't too bad, but there are just some igregious combos in it. I still find the whole fear made flesh dread archetype thing obscene everytime I think of it, fear is a very potent effect and they pull it off effortlessly and ignore immunities to it.
-edit- it seems to me that wilders can nuke all day as baseline without spending powers for the most part at some small risk to self.
Wilders still have to use power points to use their powers, unless they expend their psionic focus, in which case they can't augment it beyond the extra points their wild surge gives. They definitely can't nuke all day doing this, they run the risk of psionic enervation and they have to spend actions to become psionic focused again and they can't use their surge until 10 minutes after they perform this. Wild surging like that when you can't power the power point cost can actually kill you.
Fear Made Flesh is actually pretty limited. You can definitely get off your terrors easier and do damage while doing it, but using a terror eats action economy and its big bad wolf gig does have a cooldown in the form of an hour of meditation if I remember right. What's so overpowered about it? Its not like your actually hitting a foe with a frightened effect for with no save.
your first link was to his "trolling for amusement" and "we all said it's not op so it must not be op"(post 71, rather than 75), as for those points, again we're talking about higher lvl play, so his "again lvl 17" isn't a relevant point. Compared to a wizard of that lvl, it's doing more/better control, contingencies, etc from the looks of it.
I've still yet to see the argument about how they know so few being a real hinderance when those few they know are relevant at all levels as well.
-edit-I'm still looking for some verbage in the rules somewhere that establishes that augmenting is part of the manifestation cost. The way they word it, it sounds like it's a different thing than manifesting, only thing I found that really indicates it's not is rather minor point towards end where it says "total cost when manifesting"
Yes my link was to the wrong thing.
It is not so much that knowing less powers is makes the psion a bad class. The point being made is that, it is not as versatile as a wizard or sorcerer. They do blast well, but blasting is not all that great,and wizards and sorcerer can affect the game in more ways. Actually psions can do better things than blast. Anyway blasting normally requires nova'ing can leave you spent for the rest of the day, so it is generally a bad idea to nova whether you are doing it to blast or using other powers to do it with.To address the rule you are looking for it says you can only spend so many power points on a manifestation. Even if you augment a power you are still spending power points on a manifestation. There is no rule to say that if you augment the power that it counts as a separate number from the base(minimum) needed for the spell.
Rules quotes follow.
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which for most manifesting characters is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below.
If you take no other rule out of this book, it is critical to remember that a manifester may not spend more power points on a power than his manifester level. This includes spending power points augmenting the power, using metapsionic feats, or effects that result in needing to pay an increased power point cost to manifest a power.
There you go.