Explain to me psionics.

[lantzkev]

Playing in a PBP game, and I've heard new psionics were balanced, but then I see a distinegrate psionic "spell" cast, that on a failed save did a mere 19d6 rather than 21d6... because it was empowered by psion points...

Which as I've been reading, you can renew with dull grey ioun stones... yeah it's one shot, but they are 25gp apiece...

So what are the draw backs to psionics? So far they seem to be able to do anything a sorc/wizard can do, but better, stronger, faster, longer....

[Zhayne]

Not true at all. They are inferior to the full spellcasters.

They do not get free scaling. Let's take a 5th level wizard and a 5th leve psion. At 3rd level, the wiz casts Fireball and the psion manifests Energy Ball. These both deal 5d6 damage at an equivalent resource cost (5 PP/1 3rd level spell slot).

Now, let's revisit them four levels later. For the same 3rd level spell slot, the wizard gets a 9d6 Fireball, while the psion still gets 5d6. if he wants to deal 9d6, he has to spend 9 PP, the equivalent of a 5th level slot. For that same 5th level slot, the Wizard could use an Empowered Fireball for 13.5d6 damage.

Psionic power points don't last anywhere near as long as spell slots for this reason. Psionic characters run out of juice far quicker than their arcane counterparts.

They don't have the same amount of feat, item, or archetype support that the arcane classes get.

And, frankly, I'd suspect that that 'empowered Disintegrate' breaks some rules, most likely the metapsionic cap (which is - You cannot ever, EH-VER, spend more points on one psionic manifestation than your manifester level). How, precisely, was this accomplished, so it can be run through the rules wringer?

[lantzkev]

it's a lvl 15 game, so I'm assuming it was at least a lvl 15...

Do the ioun stones work how I think they do?

I read the power and it states you can empower it so that on a failed it does +2d6 per psion power spent. I'm not sure how psion powers generate/replinish, but the dull grey ioun stones state they give them a psion point and they cost a measly 25gp, at lvl 15... to spend 200 gp to make a ray of disentigration do more on a fail as a success seems silly good.

[Kimera757]

Someone was breaking the rules. It's not possible to do that with psionics.

Among other things, there's a cap on points based on your level. Even if you have an "external source" of power points, you cannot exceed your cap.

[Samasboy1]

No, they don't.

Yes, you can use a dull gray ioun stone to get 1 pp. But in order to do so, you must only spend 1 pp to manifest the power.

There is a rule that all the power points used to manifest a power must come from a single source. So if you are using the 1 pp from a dull gray ioun stone, you can't add more pp from other sources including other dull gray ioun stones.

As for Disintegrate, you haven't read the power thoroughly enough. It deals 22d6 on a failed save, 5d6 on a passed save. Augmenting it only increases the damage on a failed save, not on a passed save. It says so specifically.

Now, you could Empower Power Disintegrate, but then it would still only deal 5d6 x 1.5 on a passed save. Since the damage is not based on caster level, and can't be augmented, I don't see how it would increase further.

Further, as many others have already pointed out, you are limited to spending only your manifester level in pp at once. So, no matter what, he could only spend 15 pp (with a base cost of 11).

[Revan]

Here's the thing that may have been missed. It's the most important rule of psionics: you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. The psion in question was about 15th level, meaning he can spend no more than 15 power points on a single power. It costs 11 points to manifest Disintegration at all, so he could only pay an extra 4 points into the power to augment it--which means, it should have done only 9d6 on a failed save.

[lantzkev]

naw it's an npc, I don't know it's lvl, I was just saying it was at least 15 probably.

The thing I'm trying to figure out, is between that, and the ridiculous stuff I can see the "fear made flesh" character doing, I just don't really see the balance there on my end. I don't own any psion stuff, and havent' ever spent much time on sites with the info readily available due to work firewall.

[Jamie Charlan]

lantzkev wrote:

Playing in a PBP game, and I've heard new psionics were balanced, but then I see a distinegrate psionic "spell" cast, that on a failed save did a mere 19d6 rather than 21d6... because it was empowered by psion points...

Which as I've been reading, you can renew with dull grey ioun stones... yeah it's one shot, but they are 25gp apiece...

So what are the draw backs to psionics? So far they seem to be able to do anything a sorc/wizard can do, but better, stronger, faster, longer....

Psionics don't scale - if you're firing off a 20 die energy ball, you're paying for a 9th level spell. Tier 1 classes? They're still firing a third level. Oh, sure, it probably capped at 10 dice except it did not cost them a bloody dime of extra power, and they can get it up there too.

Of course this also means the SAVE OR LOSE abilities have a harder time getting through high saves.

Psionics cannot stack muliple Metas. Activating a metapsionic is done in the same way as sorcerers [on the spot rather than preparation] but costs you Focus, which takes a full round [or move with a feat] AoO generating action to recover. Doing so ALSO of course ups the PP cost, but they ARE efficient and effective enough that they are worth using.

Psionics are less capable of punching through immunities than Arcane or Divine casters can do.

And all that is the full caster types only like the Psion and Wilder. The other psionic classes? The Soulknife, Aegis, Marksman, Psychic-Warrior, Cryptic, Tactician and Vitalist? They're not very powerful, but have plenty of options and flavor. Flat out, a lot of the non-full-caster psi classes are simply FUN.

Overall, where Druid/Wizard/Cleric are Tier 1, Psions and Wilders are Tier 2, and everything else below it.

[GralphidB]

arcane disintegrate does 30d6 (save for 5d6) at 15th lvl.
psionic disintegrate does 21d6 (save for 13d6) at 15th lvl, if the psion empowers it up to 15 pp (the equivalent of an eight lvl spell). As was pointed out, to get a maximum of 19d6 on a successful save, you need to either cheat or use one of the very limited ways of raising your manifester level. The most common is overhchannel, a feat which deals damage to yourself to raise your effective level by a couple. Even with all that, the disintegrate still has a significantly lower maximum effect if the target succeeds the save than the wizard version. It's an interesting trade off, but I wouldn't consider one vastly better than the other.

As for the ioun stones, it's a bit unclear. "Provides 1 power point to a psionic character, then disintegrates." I assume that it works like a cognizance crystal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/cogniza nce-crystals) ie it can be used to activate a power, but not to replenish your power point supply (in other words, they can only be used to do lvl 1 effects, hardly game breaking). If interpreted to allow you to recharge your own supply, that is really powerful.

Psionics in general is fairly balanced, as much as anything in pathfinder is. Someone with good system mastery can break and abuse even the core rules. Psionics has a few questionable balance issues, but it's mostly pretty good from what I've seen.

[Kimera757]

Psionics has a bad rep. Cheaters and munchkins only make it worse :(

That's probably true for any non-core rules, actually. If you have a magus or summoner at your table, it's quite likely only the one player (and maybe the DM, you hope) know how it works.

[lantzkev]

like I said, the character lvl is unknown, considering it's two guys against a party of 5-6... I'd expect them to be at least 18 and to be able to do punchy powerful things, it just seems too much, and then I read on this fear made flesh thing where they ignore fear immunities... it's silly for such a strong effect.

[Kimera757]

Judging from the rules errors listed, and there not being a Fear Made Flesh power in 3.5 psionics, I think the DM is simply making stuff up, or making mistakes.

But like I said, bad rep...

[Jamie Charlan]

The rep comes from first edition, when it was the first Gestalt. A psionicist was ALSO whatever other class he was. Just pure extra powers, and of course broken.

Nowadays there's nothing they can't do that Wiz/Clr/Dru can't do way better, more often, with more power, longer duration and probably at lower level too.

ONLY thing is that without bothering to ever summon something, TECHNICALLY, a Wizard wouldn't be able to heal the party while a Psion could do so. Of course if he DOES decide to summon, well....

A lot of people by 2nd edition [it was pretty weak but very very early was stronger than a level 1-2 mage, but then so was the mage's CAT] "knew" it was broken, because they'd been told it was broken by people who'd been told it was broken by people who'd been told it was broken and didn't need to read through it to know it's broken. Combined with folks who happily tossed the broken/op lines because they do not like 'the flavor' of it, and, well, here we are again.

Have DSP's take on it. They wrote the Pathfinder Psionics ruleset anyways
http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=2700.html

[Ciaran Barnes]

Psionic abuse accompanies the combat-a-day approach.

[Jamie Charlan]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Psionic abuse accompanies the combat-a-day approach.

One combat a Day does lend itself to going full Nova way better, but a Psion is only better at it because he did not have to prepare his spells for this like a Wizard most certainly did not go do.

If you have three solid encounters a day, Psionic characters are now running on fumes, the Wizard's barely through half his daily resources but worried about the one or two spells he hadn't multi-memorized, and the fighter and rogue would have been dead twice over without at least one of those guys there.

OP: Go to the SRD, and take a look at some of the psionic classes. You'll probably find something that interests you, and it's way easier to understand a system when you're working on a character you want.

[lantzkev]

It's not that I want to make a character, I want to understand what makes it balanced, because all I'm seeing is cheese left and right. if you go to d20pfsrd the fear made flesh archetype is there, basically within that aura they have nothing is immune to fear... even paladins etc.

I haven't seen anything yet that is "against the rules" that I know of (again the 7 points spent to empower the psionic, he very well could be lvl 30 for all I know)

[Mortag1981]

lantzkev wrote:

like I said, the character lvl is unknown, considering it's two guys against a party of 5-6... I'd expect them to be at least 18 and to be able to do punchy powerful things, it just seems too much, and then I read on this fear made flesh thing where they ignore fear immunities... it's silly for such a strong effect.

You're talking about the "Dread" class, which can do some interesting things. As far as the "ignore fear immunities" power, it's on par with the same power that Anti-Paladins get. What this really allows is for your dread to use some of his wacky abilites on Paladins and other creatures that are immune to fear (though I'm not sure if it helps versus creatures immune to mind-affecting powers, i.e. undead, they may still be immune). Seems broken, but honestly your character is using it to apply the shaken or frightened condition so that his/her other powers can take effect. The Dread is also much more of a melee Psionic class (until he gets the Terror that lets him using his Fear touch at ranged), which can make him pretty fragile in the grand scheme of things.

[Kimera757]

I can't tell based on that short description if the archetype is balanced or not, but...

That's a bit like calling monks overpowered because the Zen Archer is so strong. I'm thinking the issue there is the Zen Archer, not the monk.

[MrSin]

lantzkev wrote:

I haven't seen anything yet that is "against the rules" that I know of (again the 7 points spent to empower the psionic, he very well could be lvl 30 for all I know)

Hard to say much when you don't know anything about what the other side was doing. It could be cheese, it could be fiat, it could be totally fair!

lantzkev wrote:

It's not that I want to make a character, I want to understand what makes it balanced, because all I'm seeing is cheese left and right. if you go to d20pfsrd the fear made flesh archetype is there, basically within that aura they have nothing is immune to fear... even paladins etc.

I don't see the cheese or the broken. Can you point it out to me?

[Jamie Charlan]

The powerful options are more 'in the clear' with Psionics. Part of this is simpler rules that are more just... packaged right there in front where you can see them.

There's literally nothing these classes can do that CORE [if you want broken and cheese look no further] classes can't do even better. However, sometimes the core ones, you can't quite tell what that new feat or new spell really means until all of a sudden mid combat the player stops you and goes "So I use this that and the other thing, so he saves Will DC 34 or disintegrated, dead and petrified if he makes it. Yes the petrification works on stone or things immune to being petrified. So that was my SWIFT, now with my MOVE action I'll....."

[lantzkev]

how are psionic points generated, what makes them fall behind actual casters, what prevents them from just using a bag full of dull grey's to restore them. (the ioun stone seems to replinish the pool not be used to empower, but who knows it's unclear)

[Kimera757]

lantzkev wrote:

how are psionic points generated, what makes them fall behind actual casters, what prevents them from just using a bag full of dull grey's to restore them. (the ioun stone seems to replinish the pool not be used to empower, but who knows it's unclear)

You generate your points after an 8 hour rest (and I think 15 minutes of meditation), pretty much exactly like a spell-point-using sorcerer. The number you get is based on a formula, just like a sorcerer. You don't gain power points over time over the course of the day like in 2e or earlier.

You have fewer equivalent points (although you can nova better with them), so you run out faster. Your powers don't scale the way casters do. (See the Fireball example above.) You have a lot fewer options than a caster. You laugh at components.

The grayed out ioun stones cost 25 gp and you can use them to power a 1st-level power with no scaling. It's not much different from buying a 1st-level scroll (1st caster level too). You certainly can't use them to power an Empowered Disintegrate effect, even if you're an 18th-level psion.

(And yes, there are psionic "scrolls", called power stones.)

Link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/basics.htm#magicItemsForPsionicChar acters

In effect, you're a sorcerer, but more extreme.

Single Source Rule: A Single Source

When using power points from a storage item to manifest a power, a psionic character may not pay the power’s cost with power points from more than one source. He must either use an item, his own power point reserve, or some other discrete power point source to pay the manifestation cost.

[Azten]

8 hours a sleep refreshes the power point just like spells per day. Run out, sleep through the night, have your points back in the morning.

Ninja'd

[Jamie Charlan]

Power Points are generated after sleeping. Just like sorcerers. Full rest.

A Sorcerer goes to bed, wakes up, he's at full capacity.
A Psion goes to bed, wakes up, he's at full capacity.

What makes them fall behind casters is three things.

First though a quick lesson in Power Points:

PPs are roughly equal to spell levels. A Full Tank on a Psion is about equal to the total added spell levels a wizard can chuck out in a day. Bit more by default, and more versatile because you don't HAVE to use six first level spells, but falls behind in total 'fuel' once primary casting stat goes very high. Don't build up as much as you do extra spell levels.

Basically, 1pp is level 1, and every 2 extra PP is an extra spell level there. As in, if you spend 19, you are firing off roughly a tenth level spell slot in terms of daily resources. You could do it more often than the wizard could, BUT, if you fire 8 level 9 powers, and he fires 6 level 9 spells and 2 level 8 spells, the wizard still has tons of level 1~8 spells left over, and you've burned through half your daily power pool. Also, Level 9 powers is anything you put that many points into. A 20d6 chain lightning is still level 6. A 20d6 chain lightning psionic power? that's level 9. Because that's what you just paid. Still easy to resist as a level 6 though. Because that's a level 6 power. Just, you paid more.

1) NO SCALING. I cannot stress this enough. While Range/Duration go up like it does for everyone POWER does not. If your Fireball does 5d6 at level 5, it'll do 10d6 at level 10, and you're STILL firing off a level 3 spell slot. A Psion's Energy Ball will *NEVER* grow for free like that. He wants 10d6, he is paying 10 power points, NOT 5.

2) Focus Expenditure: You can't just empower and maximize, or empower and twin, or heighten and twin. YES you get those metapsionics as feats the same way a caster does. BUT, to activate one, you pay extra power points [max limit of your level IN THE SPECIFIC PSIONIC CLASS THAT GAVE YOU THAT SPECIFIC POWER YOU ARE NOW USING] and use focus every time. Which takes ACTIONS [the holy juice] to recover.

3) Less actual cheese. Sounds strange? Perhaps. But in reality, there's stronger limitations on your powers than there are on spells. There's flat out LESS game/campaign enders [hi there time stop] and the ones that ARE there are more... muted than their spell alternatives. Yes you can create new demiplanes. So can every other full caster out there, they just do it more easily.

Again, the problematic things are obvious with psionics. They're right there, yelling at your face about what they can do.

Their non-psionic alternatives are hiding behind the curtain, hoping no one peeks behind, because they are far, far worse and know it.

[Mortag1981]

I actually don't care for "Fear Made Flesh" as an archetype. It's a wacky combat version of the basic dread, which I really really like on it's own.

The big thing with Psionics is that it is different. If you're not used to it, it can seem like they're way out of balance, but then, as has been mentioned, the core classes allow for the most rules abuse and cheese. And if you're just looking at them, it's real easy to see their potential to break the bank on a single encounter. In actual play though, a PC is going to manage his resources better.

Of course, if you're fighting an NPC Psionic character, your DM may very well just go hog wild on that one fight, but it's really no different than a BBEG wizard or sorcerer doing the same thing. If you're playing where PR is different than SR, then that can make Psionics a little broken, as your party may not have the resources to adequately deal with it.

[lantzkev]

I never knew it was critical to nova with them, because the focus changed in pathfinder (and 4th etc) to make wizards controllers, and less focus/concern in nuking.

how does fireball doing several d6 less matter when you can simply make everyone run away or cower in fear, or dominate more minds....

[Kimera757]

lantzkev wrote:

I never knew it was critical to nova with them, because the focus changed in pathfinder (and 4th etc) to make wizards controllers, and less focus/concern in nuking.

how does fireball doing several d6 less matter when you can simply make everyone run away or cower in fear, or dominate more minds....

Nova'ing doesn't mean nuking. It means unleashing your highest level spells or powers.

A wizard can also make everyone run away with the Fear spell or dominate you with Dominate Person. (Psions can't dominate non-persons until 17th-level.)

[MrSin]

lantzkev wrote:

how does fireball doing several d6 less matter when you can simply make everyone run away or cower in fear, or dominate more minds....

Where are you getting this from? It might help if you read up on psionics on your own sometime.

[Bruunwald]

lantzkev wrote:

It's not that I want to make a character, I want to understand what makes it balanced, because all I'm seeing is cheese left and right. if you go to d20pfsrd the fear made flesh archetype is there, basically within that aura they have nothing is immune to fear... even paladins etc.

I haven't seen anything yet that is "against the rules" that I know of (again the 7 points spent to empower the psionic, he very well could be lvl 30 for all I know)

Well, as you yourself seem ready to admit, either you severely underestimate the level of the character in question, or the GM made a mistake.

In either case, many people have offered the same information, all of it accurate, showing to you very clearly that psionics are not overpowered when compared to spellcasters. Your own confusion would only seem to bolster their claims.

I don't see a reason to continue doubting these fine forum folks. They clearly know what they are talking about, and they are offering you the knowledge you seek.

[Zhayne]

lantzkev wrote:

how does fireball doing several d6 less matter when you can simply make everyone run away or cower in fear, or dominate more minds....

It was called 'an example'. Look it up.

And, of course, wizards and sorcerers can do that with greater efficiency and with less resource use than psionics.

[Dark Psion]

As to Pathfinder Psionics, the wait is nearly over.
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/d/dreamscarredPress/pathfinderRPG/core

As others have said, a burned-out Ioun Stone is a one shot item only good for 1 PsP. You are much better off with Cognizance Crystals, up to 17 PsP and you can recharge them. But as other said, a single power must be fueled from a single source and you can't use these to restore your own power points.

As to understanding Psionics, in my game the "Powers" oppose each other just like the elements; Air vs Earth, Water vs Fire. Arcane opposes Nature, one works within the natural order, the other twists and manipulates that order. Divine opposes Psionics, one draws from powers outside of ourselves and the other draws from within, tapping the mortal soul.

And of course Rule #1 of Psionics, you cannot spend more on a power than your level. Yes it is possible for a Psion to "go Nova" and use up all his power points in one encounter, just as it is possible for a Wizard to cast all his spells in one encounter. And both will be SOL in the next encounter.

And there will be an entire chapter in the above Ultimate Psionics just for those who have never used or played Psionics rules.

[lantzkev]

Bruunwald wrote:

lantzkev wrote:

It's not that I want to make a character, I want to understand what makes it balanced, because all I'm seeing is cheese left and right. if you go to d20pfsrd the fear made flesh archetype is there, basically within that aura they have nothing is immune to fear... even paladins etc.

I haven't seen anything yet that is "against the rules" that I know of (again the 7 points spent to empower the psionic, he very well could be lvl 30 for all I know)

Well, as you yourself seem ready to admit, either you severely underestimate the level of the character in question, or the GM made a mistake.

In either case, many people have offered the same information, all of it accurate, showing to you very clearly that psionics are not overpowered when compared to spellcasters. Your own confusion would only seem to bolster their claims.

I don't see a reason to continue doubting these fine forum folks. They clearly know what they are talking about, and they are offering you the knowledge you seek.

I haven't seen anything supporting they are balanced except in the example of running out of the power points to make their spells do the same or more damage as their wizardly counterparts.

I had gone into things thinking psionics were basically a spell point system of casters, that they had parity with their spell caster counter parts. My experience is showing me a whole different potential of psionics, that breaks the current mold of character class abilities.

I used the NPC example of a disentegration ray able to do basically the same damage regardless of if you succeed or fail your save (in this case the fail ended up as more due to better rolls...) People immediatly jumped on the lvl 15 bit I stated, but I was stating our lvl, not the npcs. As these folks have pointed out, if he was higher lvl he could indeed do it exactly as it was stated.

So in raw damage they fall behind after the initial presentation of the ability in question (ie fireball doesn't progress) but for status effect spells (aqueous orb, dominate monster, power word stun, cause fear, conjurations, illusions, etc...) I don't see how they are anything but the same or more powerful from the descriptions provide by folks in this thread so far. Status effect is the bread and butter of the god wizard, and like wise from what I've seen of most psionics. Running out of resources is a valid issue, if it happens and is relevant. It appears though there are plenty of options for regenerating and getting new power points that make it a moot issue.

[Zhayne]

Dark Psion wrote:

Arcane opposes Nature, one works within the natural order, the other twists and manipulates that order. Divine opposes Psionics, one draws from powers outside of ourselves and the other draws from within, tapping the mortal soul.

... no. That is stated absolutely nowhere. That may be how you want it in your game setting, but it's absolutely not canonical at all. I'm not even sure it makes sense.

Nature is not a power source. Druids are Divine. Plus, it's all natural, because if it wasn't, it couldn't happen in the first place. Arcane magic and psionics are completely natural.

[MrSin]

lantzkev wrote:

don't see how they are anything but the same or more powerful from the descriptions provide by folks in this thread so far.

Glasses help you see! Have you tried those? They sell magical ones at the magic mart that give +5 perception if you've got the gold.

Or more seriously, they tend to burn out fast if they nova, they tend to do less damage, and both them and full casters have debuffs and its not exclusively a super power of the psionics to lay down battlefield control or mass debuffs.

[Zhayne]

lantzkev wrote:

Bruunwald wrote:

lantzkev wrote:

It's not that I want to make a character, I want to understand what makes it balanced, because all I'm seeing is cheese left and right. if you go to d20pfsrd the fear made flesh archetype is there, basically within that aura they have nothing is immune to fear... even paladins etc.

I haven't seen anything yet that is "against the rules" that I know of (again the 7 points spent to empower the psionic, he very well could be lvl 30 for all I know)

Well, as you yourself seem ready to admit, either you severely underestimate the level of the character in question, or the GM made a mistake.

In either case, many people have offered the same information, all of it accurate, showing to you very clearly that psionics are not overpowered when compared to spellcasters. Your own confusion would only seem to bolster their claims.

I don't see a reason to continue doubting these fine forum folks. They clearly know what they are talking about, and they are offering you the knowledge you seek.

I haven't seen anything supporting they are balanced except in the example of running out of the power points to make their spells do the same or more damage as their wizardly counterparts.

I had gone into things thinking psionics were basically a spell point system of casters, that they had parity with their spell caster counter parts. My experience is showing me a whole different potential of psionics, that breaks the current mold of character class abilities.

I used the NPC example of a disentegration ray able to do basically the same damage regardless of if you succeed or fail your save (in this case the fail ended up as more due to better rolls...) People immediatly jumped on the lvl 15 bit I stated, but I was stating our lvl, not the npcs. As these folks have pointed out, if he was higher lvl he could indeed do it exactly as it was stated.

So in raw damage they fall behind after the initial presentation of the ability in question (ie fireball doesn't...

In other words, your mind was made up before you came in here, you had no intention of listening to anything we say, you can't provide the data behind how you drew this conclusion so we can determine whether or not it's accurate, and you're ignoring logic and reason in favor of clinging pointlessly to your first impression.

Why did you waste our time with this, again?

Show us how this NPC did this, and I'll bet you twenty bucks that we can show you how it wasn't legal, and therefore CHEATING and therefore NOT an indication of the power level of psionics.

Put up or shut up.

[lantzkev]

I think you're hell bent on proving they are balanced, and me mentioning that a NPC did this is wrong... That wasn't germain to the point of the conversation, it was as example that on a failed save a certain spell did an amazing amount of damage, and the wizard counterpart does no such thing.

Quote:

Or more seriously, they tend to burn out fast if they nova, they tend to do less damage, and both them and full casters have debuffs and its not exclusively a super power of the psionics to lay down battlefield control or mass debuffs.

Yes yes, if you're going to blow psion points to empower disentigration rays you'll run out fast...

What I've asked and you are ignoring, what about battlefield control... (the thing wizards/sorcs etc actually do now)

[Azten]

Let's get one thing clear: battlefield control isn't some new thing Wizards/Sorcerers do now. They did it in previous editions too, and blasting can't compare unless blasting is all you build for.

Psionics are different from magic, but they aren't stronger or broken. You don't seem to want to except that. Too bad, it's an amazing system and you're really missing out on something cooler(but not stronger than) than Wizards.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[Are]

lantzkev wrote:

I used the NPC example of a disentegration ray able to do basically the same damage regardless of if you succeed or fail your save (in this case the fail ended up as more due to better rolls...) People immediatly jumped on the lvl 15 bit I stated, but I was stating our lvl, not the npcs. As these folks have pointed out, if he was higher lvl he could indeed do it exactly as it was stated.

I don't know the psionics rules, but as far as I can see from what people on this thread have said, only the "failed save" result (already high damage) can be boosted, not the "successful save" result (which will remain low damage). So making both of these deal the same amount of damage seems unlikely.

[BloodyManticore]

I had a wizard do 58474366346d6 against me by a dm. This is completely out of context with no facts about anything. This must mean wizards are op and should be banned. Screw your arguments they are all specific examples, because this happened it must be raw,have no mistakes and, show the entire power system of multiple classes

[MrSin]

BloodyManticore wrote:

I had a wizard do 58474366346d6 against me by a dm. This is completely out of context with no facts about anything. This must mean wizards are op and should be banned. Screw your arguments they are all specific examples, because this happened it must be raw,have no mistakes and, show the entire power system of multiple classes

Better than the time I had a monk blow up someone's heart with his mystical kung-fu class feature from a mile away. I mean, I haven't looked at the monk, but he totally has that and they're OP and you can't convince me otherwise.

[ShadowcatX]

Oh yay! One of these threads. We haven't had one of these threads in days. . .

Yes, psionics are balanced. If you're seeing them be unbalanced it is probably because either you or the person using them is ignorant of how they work. My recommendation is read up on them. If after you read up on them and understand them you still think they're over powered, well search these forums for the word simulacrum.

[lantzkev]

Azten wrote:

Let's get one thing clear: battlefield control isn't some new thing Wizards/Sorcerers do now. They did it in previous editions too, and blasting can't compare unless blasting is all you build for.

Psionics are different from magic, but they aren't stronger or broken. You don't seem to want to except that. Too bad, it's an amazing system and you're really missing out on something cooler(but not stronger than) than Wizards.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

I'm glad you're willing to take that stance and dismiss someone explainging an example where they are clearly and objectively stronger in a specific case and just handwaving it as "illegal" and that they are clearly balanced because you say so.

In this situation we have a spell that deals alot of damage and has a rider that if it reduces them to zero hp, they are gone without any chance of revival except for a small handful of spells. A psionic character of lvl 20 can spend 9 points to make it a) increase the dc by 2 and if they succeed the fort save they will take 23d6 dmg.... that seems totally on par with a wizard...

I look at dimension door, there's no prohibition against actions once there... sorry Dimension slide... Also you can expend points to make it move rather than standard...

Mind control, gee dominate more than one, dominate anything (ie fey, plants, outsiders, elementals, dragons...) without a feat/class ability basically (just spend a few points) and oh as you spend points to do this the dc goes up...

let's look at the lvl 1 spell sleep, HD limitation etc.. psionic version, spend 11 and you affect not only any hd, but everything in that radius.

It seems that psionics are sorcerers without real limitations to their spell selections they can simply amp anything they know to adjust to the situation.

[Jamie Charlan]

They aren't. The CLOSEST thing they get to stronger is blasting. Blasting isn't what you want a wizard or cleric for anyways, it is, as you say, battlefield control.

And at that, the Full-Caster Tier 1s have no equal.

Psionic Dominate is no better than the magic options. The magic/divine options are just harder to deal with, BUT those methods are better KNOWN to people.

Psionics have less powers known than sorcerers. They DO get to adapt slightly better to the situation because of points vs spell-levels-per-day, but that is IT. They get to augment what they have, but a Sorcerer is going to know several TIMES the number of spells per level that the psion does to compensate.

The ability to throw in more points is nice, but you literally cannot compare the power to a now-lower-level-spell any longer. If you put 11 points into that power, you have to compare the debilitation you cause to a SIXTH level spell. You can easily research a higher level sleep spell, just that people don't bother since there's plenty of debilitation higher up. The Psion, well, he sticks to and augments his sleep.

By the way: "That's an illegal move" IS an argument. If you're too powerful because you're cheating and/or houseruling, then it's senseless to pin the blame on the rules for that.

[Azten]

Yep, if you use up a limited resource to do one thing really well, you... huh, I guess you do it really well. Weird.

Anyway, continue to pick specific things so people far better can try to explain why your opinion isn't quite as informed as it could be. :)

Oh, and not once did I 'handwave' anything in my posts. :)

[BloodyManticore]

OP wrote:

A psionic character of lvl 20 can spend 9 points to make it a) increase the dc by 2 and if they succeed the fort save they will take 23d6 dmg.... that seems totally on par with a wizard...

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/disintegrate.html#_disintegrate

free scaling and a lot stronger...

OP wrote:

I look at dimension door, there's no prohibition against actions once there... sorry Dimension slide... Also you can expend points to make it move rather than standard...

Sounds a lot like quicken spell which that is meant to copy, it does exactly the same thing, you can also achieve the same effect with a feat or two. Okay they dimension door slightly better than wizards

OP wrote:

let's look at the lvl 1 spell sleep, HD limitation etc.. psionic version, spend 11 and you affect not only any hd, but everything in that radius.

Using more pp is the equivalent of a higher level spell so 11 pp is more like comparing it to a 6th level spell if i remember correctly. If i remember correctly paying pp to improve powers doesn't increase the dc naturally either you have to pay specifically for the dc increase or the damage increase

Edited because I learned to quote properly, sorry for the initial mess

[MrSin]

Isn't your example of an NPC you don't have the stats to? At 20th level 23D6 to a single target isn't that much and there is far worse that can happen to you. For a 9th level spell it better darn well be powerful. Also I cast maze.

lantzkev wrote:

I look at dimension door, there's no prohibition against actions once there... sorry Dimension slide... Also you can expend points to make it move rather than standard...

Mind control, gee dominate more than one, dominate anything (ie fey, plants, outsiders, elementals, dragons...) without a feat/class ability basically (just spend a few points) and oh as you spend points to do this the dc goes up...

let's look at the lvl 1 spell sleep, HD limitation etc.. psionic version, spend 11 and you affect not only any hd, but everything in that radius.

Psionics also get few powers than casters do spells. Those abilities are going to last them from day one and ideally after being augmented are on par with a spell level on par. Psionic slide is only available to martial psionics normally, and it devours your power points pretty quickly(they don't get many).

Edit: Psionic slide after being augmented for example is like a level 4 spell for a six level caster, rather than a 3rd. Slumber after spending 12 points on it is like casting a 6th level spell!

lantzkev wrote:

It seems that psionics are sorcerers without real limitations to their spell selections they can simply amp anything they know to adjust to the situation.

Can you clarify what your saying? Did you know clerics and druids have their whole spell list available to them and wizards can potentially have the whole arcane list and that their spells are automatically scaled in damage?

[Azten]

Bloody, there are a few(note I said few, lantzkev) powers that augment DC along with something else. Pretty sure they are all blasts though, so it's all meh.

[Jamie Charlan]

The blasting powers get a DC increase with them but for other things you are generally correct.

Options exist in individual power augmentations, but usually state it, and are using up PPs [see also Manifester Level Limit], so making it as hard to resist as a spell of equal level can keep the power or duration down low, as that's where your points are now tied up.

[lantzkev]

Let's assume a sorcerer can achieve 30 charisma and a psionic can achieve 30 in their attribute at lvl 20.

The psionic recieves +100 psionic points the "pure caster" types seem to get around 343 pts themselves. And know "11 -36" powers assuming no favored class bonuses etc. so 443 pts.

A sorcer with 30 char gets 1st (3) 2nd (3) 3rd-6th(2) and 7-9th (1) extra spell and 6 per day of all lvls at 20.

To equate that with power points using the table they have.
1st (9pts) 2nd (27) 3rd (40) 4th (56) 5th (76) 6th (88) 7th (91) 8th (105) 9th (119)

So if the sorc was going to convert over his spells into SP he clearly gets more with his 611pts.

Wizards will be of course be be on par I'd assume spell point wise...

And I've not seen much in the way of psionic powers that don't scale, and don't adapt as needed....

[MrSin]

Lets stop comparing straight damage at level 20. The game unravels there for everyone. Try comparing what the fighter can do to those guys, or out of combat abilities. Something to remember is that a 20th level caster can cast other nasty things, like maze. Save or die with no save, ouch!(and they could do that at 15th level)

lantzkev wrote:

And I've not seen much in the way of psionic powers that don't scale, and don't adapt as needed....

Is that a bad thing? They have fewer spells/powers and it does cost them. Think of each augmented power as one of a higher spell level, that helps. A spell that you spend 17 points on is a 9th level spell equivalent! Spending 4 points to do 4D6 more is almost like burning a spell 2 levels higher, but the arcane caster got that scaling for free.