THe part where he do not care about dignity andor life.And what part of that is involved with carrying out a legal execution?... He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life...
Yeah, and? Are you saying all executioners are LE?
Edit: Would make it hard to be an adventurer too really...
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THe part where he do not care about dignity andor life.And what part of that is involved with carrying out a legal execution?... He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life...
Now you're adding things. If he didn't care, he wasn't LG to begin with and the point is moot.
Or, the point is settled; he was never LG to begin with and HKs are Evil, rather than Neutral.
:p
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Gnome, you seem to have this misguided notion (no offense intended) that any harsh justice is somehow EVIL and if someone upholds that justice they must be EVIL as a result. That is simply flawed thinking. Upholding a law without caring about the morality OF THE PEOPLE WHO BROKE the law is what defines a LN HK. Is Judge Dredd evil? No. He is the perfect example of what a LN HK is.
Icehawk:
That is not interpretation. That is Schizophrenia. Have fun with that.Evil is as Evil does; your name tag does not change the deed.
Funny, she doesn't kill people outside combat. She fights alongside a paladin with no problem.
Honestly, you are inflexible in every way.
I bet you would be one of those dm's that say "we enforce alignment" aren't you?
I said what I said, the example was pretty concrete.Yeah, and? Are you saying all executioners are LE?THe part where he do not care about dignity andor life.And what part of that is involved with carrying out a legal execution?... He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life...
Concrete of what?
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1) "...the unsubtle, skull breaking Hellknights." (Inner Sea World Guide, p 55)
2) "...uninterested in social goodliness..." (ISWG, p266)
3) ...emulate the most organized and effective armies in all the planes: the legions of Hell." (ISWG, p 266)
4) "They train with summoned devils..." (ISWG, p266)
5) "...obey draconian regimens of military conduct..." (ISWG, p266)
6) "..the backs of others are stepping stones to power..." (ISWG, Order of the Chain, p266)
7) "...returning [to] bondage, reselling as slaves..." (ISWG, Order of the Chain, p266)
8) "...deals and bargains with fiends..." ((ISWG, Order of the Gate, p266)
9) "...infernal servants wreak their will..." (ISWG, Order of the Gate, p266)
10) "...distilling select tenets into a dogma far from one god's faith..." (ISWG, Order of the God Claw, p266)
11) "...it is unclear from which of these gods it draws its power..." (ISWG, Order of the God Claw, p266)
12) "...puts the rack to use to prove the danger of misguided invention." (ISWG, Order of the Rack, p267)
13) "...and brutal reminders..." (ISWG, Order of the Scourge, p267)
14) "...network of informants, pays significant bounties for substantiated accusations, and publicly metes out grim punishments..." (ISWG, Order of the Scourge, p267)
15) "Convincing them to leave..." (ISWG, p267)
16) "They are not concerned with methods. They are concerned with results." (ISWG, p266)
17) "...people...will be treated like beasts..." (ISWG, p266)
1.) There is nothing remotely evil about being "unsubtle" or "skull-breaking", particularly when describing a knightly order where physical might and a direct, plain-speaking attitude are prized. Unsubtle and skull-breaking could easily describe the Lawful Good Knights of Ozem.
2.) Uninterested in social goodliness (i.e. pleasantries) is a fancy way of saying that they don't particularly care if you like them while they do their job. They're not here to deliver flowery speeches or to kiss babies. They're not politicians. They're soldiers. Soldiers who have trained and prepared to stand before literal demons, devils, and the worst monsters the universe has to offer ... and kill them. Nothing about this attitude is evil, or foreign to a good person working in a similar elite group.
3.) Emulate. Verb. "Match or surpass, typically by imitation." Hell is the mightiest army in the known universe. Hellknights train to be as tough, or tougher than the best opponent they know of. Which describes just about every military and athlete in the world.
4.) Of course they train with summoned devils. Specifically, they fight them. Because once you kill a monster from hell in physical combat, no earthly enemy will be quite as intimidating. Also, devils are some of the most canny strategists in the universe. Which means Hellknight commanders are trained to outwit devils. And the devils are summoned, so it's not like they're there willingly (at least on paper).
5.) It sounds better if you quote the whole sentence: "Thus, Hellknights learn to make sacrifices for the greater good, obey draconian regimens of military conduct, commit to encyclopedic memorization the laws of their orders and local governing bodies, and undergo constant drills to temper both body and mind."
6 & 7.) This describes one specific order, not all Hellknights. Slavery is legal pretty much everywhere in the world, and the Order does as much to punish unworthy slave owners as they do to capture escaped slaves. It may be harder to find good members of this Order, but they don't all have to be evil.
8 & 9.) Also describes only one, single Order and not all Hellknights. The Order of the Gate is another one of those "probably no good people here" orders, but there is also almost nothing known about it or why they do what they do so it's hard to draw many conclusions. This Order does seem to be more evil than not, though.
10.) Sounds like the transition from Judaism to Christianity to Islam. Or the development of any number of other religions. Nothing evil about that. Plus, at least one of the gods that they are "far from" is Asmodeus.
12.) Also describes only one, specific order and not all Hellknights. The Order of the Rack is easily grouped on the more LE side of the orders, although considering there are Lovecraftian Elder Gods out there I think you could make a good point for burning at least SOME books....
13.) "Brutal reminders that no crime goes unpunished". You didn't quote the whole sentence. They combat criminals and organized criminal organizations that prey on innocent people. Also, there are other definitions for "brutal" beyond "cruel". Brutal can also mean "harsh & unrelenting" which sounds pretty in line with what we know about Hellknights.
14.) The network of informants and bounties for "substantiated" accusations pretty much describes any well-funded police force. As for the grim punishment part ... was Ned Stark evil for insisting on executing deserters from the Wall himself, rather than pass that grim duty on to someone else?
15.) This line refers to governments bringing in Hellknights and then trying to get rid of them after. Each Order is different, so there are a lot of answers to why they wouldn't want to go, but even the better Orders have a good excuse to stay once they're there. Do you really want law enforcement to come and go just because short-sighted politicians change? You don't normally call in Hellknights unless you have a problem worth throwing Hellknights at ....
16.) Probably not the most accurate of sentences, since we know Hellknights ARE concerned with methods. They just expect those methods to work. You could easily read this as "If the way things are being done isn't working, then changes need to be made."
17.) You omitted "If people cannot be trusted to obey the law out of their own senses of civility and social righteousness then ..." from that sentence.
Gnome, you seem to have this misguided notion (no offense intended) that any harsh justice is somehow EVIL and if someone upholds that justice they must be EVIL as a result.Is law always justice?
To a HK it is.
To a HK it is.Gnome, you seem to have this misguided notion (no offense intended) that any harsh justice is somehow EVIL and if someone upholds that justice they must be EVIL as a result.Is law always justice?
To a single hellknight? Does he have a name?
To a single hellknight? Does he have a name?To a HK it is.Gnome, you seem to have this misguided notion (no offense intended) that any harsh justice is somehow EVIL and if someone upholds that justice they must be EVIL as a result.Is law always justice?
No need to be pedantic as it is clear I was referring to all HK.
No need to be pedantic as it is clear I was referring to all HK.To a single hellknight? Does he have a name?Is law always justice?To a HK it is.
Oh, so they employ mind control and brain washing then? Or is a hive mind?
Remember, we are all individuals... Except that one guy. There isn't a universal idea everyone in an organization follows... unless your a hive mind of some sort, but I'm pretty sure the hell knights aren't.
Grond, No offense taken :) And no, I do not have notion that any harsh justice is Evil. However, getting pliers and breaking teeth out of a bread-thief's head *might* be evil. HKs consistently refer to punishments as brutal or harsh. They do not address what it was that the perpetrator had done in the first place. Something truly vile like rape would be an appropriate trigger to harsh justice. And what is Law, or Justice if not tempered with mercy? Neutral. or, Evil, depending. The combined elements of Law and Good demand Justice tempered by compassion. Overly harsh punishments for petty crimes only leads to more crime.
TOZ, I was teasing you :) But, the case stands. It would be incredibly difficult to maintain a good alignment in an environment where expediency and brutality are *encouraged* To such an extent that a person that had strong (good) convictions would probably never even become a Hello Pony Knight of Rainbow Lawfulness ('cause of course no Good person would be a Hell Knight! lol)
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To a single hellknight? Does he have a name?
Bob. Bob McGillicutty. ;)
To a single hellknight? Does he have a name?Bob. Bob McGillicutty. ;)
Haha, Yes! I was hoping someone would say it.
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The Empyreal Lord Dammerich might be a good measuring stick for LG approaches to harsh justice. Quite a bit of his description's real estate is devoted to care he takes to ensure unjust punishment doesn't happen.
(that and the dude is more metal than any Hellknight seen thus far. Dude's got skulls on skulls in skulls :O)
(Bullet points are Abby Temps' replies, my comments follow the individual bullets.)
1.) There is nothing remotely evil about being "unsubtle" or "skull-breaking", particularly when describing a knightly order where physical might and a direct, plain-speaking attitude are prized. Unsubtle and skull-breaking could easily describe the Lawful Good Knights of Ozem.
--Expanding the context, this sentence is in regards to who they work for. HKs House Thrune's enforcers.
2.) Uninterested in social goodliness (i.e. pleasantries) is a fancy way of saying that they don't particularly care if you like them while they do their job. They're not here to deliver flowery speeches or to kiss babies. They're not politicians. They're soldiers. Soldiers who have trained and prepared to stand before literal demons, devils, and the worst monsters the universe has to offer ... and kill them. Nothing about this attitude is evil, or foreign to a good person working in a similar elite group.
--We may simply see the phrasing differently; I read it as "Not interested in social welfare, be it alms giving, aiding in times of famine, or what have you :)
3.) Emulate. Verb. "Match or surpass, typically by imitation." Hell is the mightiest army in the known universe. Hellknights train to be as tough, or tougher than the best opponent they know of. Which describes just about every military and athlete in the world.
--Again, expand the context again. They study tactics, hierarcy and atrocities (again, source's words not mine.) Or are you suggesting that they *don't* deal in atrocity?
4.) Of course they train with summoned devils. Specifically, they fight them. Because once you kill a monster from hell in physical combat, no earthly enemy will be quite as intimidating. Also, devils are some of the most canny strategists in the universe. Which means Hellknight commanders are trained to outwit devils. And the devils are summoned, so it's not like they're there willingly (at least on paper).
--Hell is Hierarchy? I am reading that in some of your comments, please correct me if I am misunderstanding that! :) Big Boss Devil says, Middle Management Devil, here's your new assignment: Go get yer arse kicked by a skinny humie on the Prime. When the boss speaks, smaller Devils jump to! So, yeah, "on paper" they are 'forced to fight, but the boss that sent 'em, he likes the results. "Yes, please be more like me!"
5.) It sounds better if you quote the whole sentence: "Thus, Hellknights learn to make sacrifices for the greater good, obey draconian regimens of military conduct, commit to encyclopedic memorization the laws of their orders and local governing bodies, and undergo constant drills to temper both body and mind."
--This one you may have me on, but I wil worry this bone some more: Draconian military regimes seldom serve the greater good. In fact the most draconian ones *also* tend to be the more chaotic (arbitrary) ones (Real World examples: Red Army, Khmer Rouge, Waffen SS)
6 & 7.) This describes one specific order, not all Hellknights. Slavery is legal pretty much everywhere in the world, and the Order does as much to punish unworthy slave owners as they do to capture escaped slaves. It may be harder to find good members of this Order, but they don't all have to be evil.
--And which ones are good? The slant is to the south, and it is *throughout* all of the Orders. It's ice cubes melting into my coke. Pretty soon my coke will not be the same as when it arrived.
8 & 9.) Also describes only one, single Order and not all Hellknights. The Order of the Gate is another one of those "probably no good people here" orders, but there is also almost nothing known about it or why they do what they do so it's hard to draw many conclusions. This Order does seem to be more evil than not, though.
--Strongly agree. And the shadowy nature of our (imperfect) knowledge makes them very, very sinister! *cue spooky music*
10.) Sounds like the transition from Judaism to Christianity to Islam. Or the development of any number of other religions. Nothing evil about that. Plus, at least one of the gods that they are "far from" is Asmodeus.
--When I read this I imagined a bunch of 40K scribes parsing the Holy Texts and saying "This one serves the Emperor! Shred the rest" as they toss destroyed tomes to the side. For example, Iomadae is LG, and if we de-emphasize one aspect of her alignment she loses her 'spirit.' Adabar is LN, but represents civilization, not LAW per se. (of course Laws are required for anyone to be civilzed!) in each of these cases the final product delivered by God Claw is watered down, diluted phrases and mottoes, with no real *ooomph* or deity. Also, GC/HKs *do not* know where they get their powers. I am thinking a certain Prince of Darkness fuels them...
12.) Also describes only one, specific order and not all Hellknights. The Order of the Rack is easily grouped on the more LE side of the orders, although considering there are Lovecraftian Elder Gods out there I think you could make a good point for burning at least SOME books....
--lol The Hounds!!! Except they specifically refer to *all* manner of dangerous knowledge. One of the words they used was "invention". This Order is more about Evil than Law. I say that because their modus operandi is "Torture!" IIRC, they are the only order described in the ISWG that *specifically* tortures. (I don't have my book with me..stupid work) Destroying knowledge is very 1984, I can even imagine these guys saying "Double Plus Good!" at their book burnings as Mankind's imagination is flushed down the memory hole.
13.) "Brutal reminders that no crime goes unpunished". You didn't quote the whole sentence. They combat criminals and organized criminal organizations that prey on innocent people. Also, there are other definitions for "brutal" beyond "cruel". Brutal can also mean "harsh & unrelenting" which sounds pretty in line with what we know about Hellknights.
--"...no crime goes unpunished..." This comes back to the Justice tempered by Mercy. Even if the end result here is *generally* better than letting mafiosos run rampant, there is no cause for celebration.
14.) The network of informants and bounties for "substantiated" accusations pretty much describes any well-funded police force. As for the grim punishment part ... was Ned Stark evil for insisting on executing deserters from the Wall himself, rather than pass that grim duty on to someone else?
--Ned actually demonstrates a HUGE Lawful streak in this regards. Something he said about if you are going to condemn a man be strong enough to take his life as well. You could even argue that it is Good, too. He sets a standard that makes killing dirty, ugly. But then Ned Stark is a Hero in his setting! :D With this bullet I read "KGB" and "Stasi" not 'well funded police force.' Look at Cheliax's insular society. Trust no-one! to quote the Dead Kennedys, "Pissed at your neighbor? Don't bother to nag; pick up the phone and turn in a f%#"
15.) This line refers to governments bringing in Hellknights and then trying to get rid of them after. Each Order is different, so there are a lot of answers to why they wouldn't want to go, but even the better Orders have a good excuse to stay once they're there. Do you really want law enforcement to come and go just because short-sighted politicians change? You don't normally call in Hellknights unless you have a problem worth throwing Hellknights at ....
--If they were truly Lawful wouldn't they respect legitimate authority? like the short sighted politicians giving them the boot. Or do HKs decide which authority matters and when?
16.) Probably not the most accurate of sentences, since we know Hellknights ARE concerned with methods. They just expect those methods to work. You could easily read this as "If the way things are being done isn't working, then changes need to be made."
--But I don't read it that way. The sentence says, "End justifies the means." License to torture, threaten, abuse, and because Don Mafio waas captured the blood spilled en route was acceptable collateral damage.
17.) You omitted "If people cannot be trusted to obey the law out of their own senses of civility and social righteousness then ..." from that sentence.
--Regardless, should a Good society treat criminals as sub-human? What I read here (full sentence, too) is "Do as you are told, or become a slave." How can that possibly be construed as good? What if the only law being broken was having four or more men between ages 16 and 20 in the same room after 8pm? Supporting the status quo of wickedness is wicked. Some laws *should* be broken, or ignored, or repealed. But not according to the Gov't that is in charge and therefor has some say in how to direct the HKs...
(whew! Fingers hurting!)
Don't know that much about hellknights, but to me they sound a LOT like Planescape's Mercykillers. Is that correct?
To a single hellknight? Does he have a name?Bob. Bob McGillicutty. ;)
Ever since I saw Twin Peaks, Bob has stopped being a "funny name" for me. :(
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(Bullet points are Abby Temps' replies, my comments follow the individual bullets.)
1.) There is nothing remotely evil about being "unsubtle" or "skull-breaking", particularly when describing a knightly order where physical might and a direct, plain-speaking attitude are prized. Unsubtle and skull-breaking could easily describe the Lawful Good Knights of Ozem.
--Expanding the context, this sentence is in regards to who they work for. HKs House Thrune's enforcers.
Actually there not House Thrune's enforcers from the council of thieves hellknight timeline
Queen Abrogail I invites the Order of the
Scourge to serve as her personal guard and
police force, with similar roles proposed for
the other orders. Lictor Jaisade of the Scourge
bluntly declines, explaining that the Hellknights
will continue to serve the empire and spread
their vision of law, but as their code alone deems
fit. The queen nearly orders the imprisonment
of Jaisade, but acquiesces, declaring her house's
debt to the knights fulfilled by this mercy.
Same with when Queen Dominia invites the order of the nail to Varisa
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Responses to FireberdGNOME. Spoilered for size.
"Expanding the context, this sentence is in regards to who they work for. HKs House Thrune's enforcers."
As Kevin Mack mentioned above me, the line about them being "House Thrune's enforcers" from the Inner Sea World Guide is more hyperbole and public opinion than actual fact. At least two orders specifically declined the "invitation", and several orders are either outside of Cheliax entirely or so small and specialized that they operate totally independently. There is only one Hellknight order who would fill the role, and that is the Order of the Rack. Who, like I mentioned in my previous post, are most definitely on the LE side of things.
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"We may simply see the phrasing differently; I read it as "Not interested in social welfare, be it alms giving, aiding in times of famine, or what have you :)"
On an institutional level that is probably true of most Hellknight orders. They don't produce food so, in the event of a famine, they aren't going to have much to give away. They'd probably hold on to their own supply to feed themselves so that they can continue to operate and keep the peace during the famine, protect the actual social welfare organizations, and prevent people from stealing food from each other. On an individual level Hellknights may give alms, but the Orders probably aren't set up to do that since they're elite military orders ... not soup kitchens. For a real world analogy, the US government generally doesn't call out Navy SEALS to distribute food or warm blankets. That doesn't mean SEALS are evil and heartless, it just means that their training and job descriptions are specific to a different sort of crisis. Individual SEALS are as generous or not with their time and money as they want to be.
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"Again, expand the context again. They study tactics, hierarcy and atrocities (again, source's words not mine.) Or are you suggesting that they *don't* deal in atrocity?"
The line you're quoting reads "To strengthen their resolve, Hellknights study the methods, laws, tactics, and atrocities of Hell."
Hellknights are training for, and preparing for, the worst. Which goes far beyond any real world example since they live in a world where there are literal demons & devils. Having studied the worst that hell has to offer, and knowing that demons and devils are actively at work, a Hellknight has very good, very personal reason not to simply give up and become a farmer. They know what's at stake, and they know why they fight. They aren't fighting a theoretical enemy. Hell and the Abyss are real places, and Hellknights need to be prepared to stand toe to toe with them.
Doesn't it make sense to know what your enemy is capable of, so you won't be surprised when things go all pear shaped later?
If Hellknights deal in atrocity, it's more likely on the "stopping" side than the "causing" side (although there are certainly exceptions). Hellknights are also more willing to wade into atrocity to put an end to it instead of running away.
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"Hell is Hierarchy? I am reading that in some of your comments, please correct me if I am misunderstanding that!"
Hell is very much a hierarchy. A very organized, militant hierarchy. It's described in a couple books (Princes of Darkness, The Great Beyond, etc). And outer planer creatures don't really have much of a choice but to respond when conjured. You can read more detail about that under the description of "Conjuration" magic in the Core Rulebook.
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"Draconian military regimes seldom serve the greater good. In fact the most draconian ones *also* tend to be the more chaotic (arbitrary) ones"
The phrase in context is "obey draconian regimens of military conduct". The Hellknights who are in the order are held to draconian standards. That does not mean that they hold non-Hellknights to draconian standards.
Hellknights also are very much NOT chaotic. The fact that they are lawful is a central defining characteristic of Hellknights. A better real world example would be the Roman Legions, who were held to very strict standards and faced harsh punishment if they failed at their duties. Except Hellknights, unlike the Roman Legions, don't conscript into their ranks. So the people accepting those draconian standards are volunteers.
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"And which ones are good? The slant is to the south, and it is *throughout* all of the Orders. It's ice cubes melting into my coke. Pretty soon my coke will not be the same as when it arrived."
Like I've said before, Hellknights are basically a franchise. Each Order is separate from all the others by geography, internal hierarchy, and overall goal. So an order like The Order of the Pike, which is simply dedicated to fighting monsters, or The Order of the Tempest, which stops kidnappers and retrieves kidnapped victims, could easily be filled entirely with LG Hellknights.
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"Except they specifically refer to *all* manner of dangerous knowledge. One of the words they used was "invention". This Order is more about Evil than Law. I say that because their modus operandi is "Torture!" IIRC, they are the only order described in the ISWG that *specifically* tortures. (I don't have my book with me..stupid work) Destroying knowledge is very 1984, I can even imagine these guys saying "Double Plus Good!" at their book burnings as Mankind's imagination is flushed down the memory hole."
Yes, the Order of the Rack probably doesn't have any good Hellknights. At least not that stay good for very long. They are also the closest to "House Thrune's enforcers". But, again, they are only one single order and don't represent all Hellknights.
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"...no crime goes unpunished..." This comes back to the Justice tempered by Mercy. Even if the end result here is *generally* better than letting mafiosos run rampant, there is no cause for celebration."
Considering the Hellknights are based out of Cheliax, which is very very strongly inspired by Rome and the historic Italian peninsula, you were right to use the word "Mafioso" to describe the sort of crime they deal with. The Order of the Scourge operates in a region where people can literally get away with murder if they have the right friends, or the right amount of cash, and the police ("dottari") are more akin to mercenaries owned and funded by the wealthy. Heck, the entire city of Westcrown is run by a Council of Thieves (at least until you play through that adventure path). And the Hellknights were founded specifically because the government & police of the empire at the height of that empire's power had been successfully infiltrated by a demonic cult.
So can you see how a group of knights who cannot be bribed or otherwise tempted, dedicated to ensuring that criminals get just punishment for the crimes they commit regardless of who their families are, would be considered a positive force on the streets of Cheliax?
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"Ned actually demonstrates a HUGE Lawful streak in this regards. Something he said about if you are going to condemn a man be strong enough to take his life as well. You could even argue that it is Good, too. He sets a standard that makes killing dirty, ugly. But then Ned Stark is a Hero in his setting!"
Exactly. And those same arguments can be used for Hellknights. They give up their own freedom and any chance they may have for a happy, normal life. They are willing to do dirty, ugly work that needs to be done.
Hellknights would shoot Old Yeller too, rather than let him suffer.
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"Look at Cheliax's insular society. Trust no-one!"
Remember that not all Hellknights live in Cheliax, or are from Cheliax, or operate in Cheliax. And even if they do, they generally live outside cities isolated from the day to day activities of the citizens so they can do their jobs without getting sucked into local politics.
...Like a castle full of Batmen.
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"If they were truly Lawful wouldn't they respect legitimate authority? like the short sighted politicians giving them the boot."
Are the short sighted politicians really legitimate? Are they giving Hellknights the boot because it's best for society, or because it's best for the politician who wants to operate without those pesky Hellknights looking over his shoulder? Is the next politician going to turn around and change their mind? Can the Hellknights really trust that the politician asking them to leave has an alternative plan, or will the people suffer so the politician can save a few gold pieces?
We'd have to look at a specific situation before we can make an informed decision as to whether a specific order's decision to stay was "good", "neutral", or "evil".
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"But I don't read it that way."
Then you and I are both reading something into it that isn't necessarily there. Which is totally ok, since each person's version of the campaign world can emphasis different aspects differently. If you don't want to deal with firearms, you can downplay Alkenstar. If you don't want samurai walking around you can focus away from Tian Xia and downplay international travel. If you want Hellknights to be immoral, evil fascists hell bent on subjugating anyone who crosses House Thrune then you can totally play them that way. In my campaign world, for example, orcs are soul-less irredeemable reaver-like monsters and Nidal is a country where fedora hats and Venetian blinds (*cough* Nisrochi blinds *cough*) are in fashion. By comparison I'd bet good money that Mikaze's orcs are somewhat more humane. And that's ok.
My goal was to answer your original question of "how aren't they evil?" by pointing out the various ways I can think of to interpret them in a non-evil way.
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"Regardless, should a Good society treat criminals as sub-human?"
Even the worst criminal in our world is still a person, so you can say that de-humanizing them is wrong. And I'd personally agree with you.
We don't live in a world with actual monsters. The Hellknights do. So concepts of morality in a world where inhuman monsters and literal demons from hell exist and prey on people may be a bit different. The argument that "if you can't coexist with other people then you'll be treated like a monster" has a totally different meaning in that world.
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"Do as you are told, or become a slave." How can that possibly be construed as good?
Well, slavery is legal in nearly every country of the campaign world so forced slavery as punishment for a crime isn't too far out of bounds for the world.
There's a much bigger argument about the international slave trade in a world with an alignment system than I'd like to have here (although I'm sure you can find endless threads about it if you look). Suffice to say it goes far beyond Hellknight enforcement.
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"What if the only law being broken was having four or more men between ages 16 and 20 in the same room after 8pm? Supporting the status quo of wickedness is wicked. Some laws *should* be broken, or ignored, or repealed. But not according to the Gov't that is in charge and therefor has some say in how to direct the HKs..."
Now you're throwing in hypothetical examples with hypothetical punishment. If there is a place in the campaign world where the punishment of having too many men in a room after 8pm is forced slavery then that would be an issue all to itself.
But I will point out that the fact that Hellknights operate outside of the regular government and don't always do what the government tells them has been mentioned a couple times already. So even if the government tells the Hellknights to arrest groups of men simply for being in the same room as each other, there is absolutely no guarantee that any given Hellknight order will obey that "request". Some might (like the Order of the Rack). Others would likely roll their eyes and tell the government to stop wasting their time with trivial matters.
Pfft, well obviously he turns evil because he only had two trick options!
It's perfectly acceptable for Gnome to believe the HKs are evil and for the HKs to think they are neutral and for soemeone else to think the HKs are a good alignment group since all alignment is really are points of view.
An example of this that a friend told me is: Two Lawful kingdoms go to war and both have a lawful good commander who end up in a one on one duel both think the other is evil, is the winner good or evil?
Dueling is neither good nor evil. The winner is neutral!
Pfft, well obviously he turns evil because he only had two trick options!And yet he thought his enemy was evil so it was a good thing to kill him?
Well I wasn't being serious, and you don't have to think of your enemy as evil, only understand what you want to accomplish and what ways to do so.
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Kevin M, per ISWG, p55: "Among [the government in Egorian]'s most powerful mortal tools are the unsubtle, skull-breaking Hellknights." Seems to me the HKs work directly for House Thrune.
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Opened up Castles of Golarion. Yeah, Evil.
1) "...the [Order of the Nail]'s prime directive: the destruction of the indigenous "primitives" who plagued the area." (p25)
Unless someone wants to say Genocide is *not* evil.
2) "The inner chapel is used for...Asmodean religious services." (p33)
2a) "[the cleric] is currently assisted by an erinyes..." (p33)
Devil worship and working hand in hand with devils. Every Paladin's dream.
3) "...frequently throw troublesome prisoners or slaves [to six lemures] to punish them or prepare them for sacrifice." (p31)
Evil. Unless you think feeding devils is sunshine and funtimes.
4) "[the bastions] represent the ideals of Lord Asmodeus: slavery, tyranny and pride." (p27)
All goodly virtues, I assure you. Oh, and so there is no confusion: Tyranny - arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority. (dictionary*dot*com)
5) "...Hellknights have never bowed to Varisia's rulers or its laws." (p25)
And, Chaotic, too. Unless, of course, you are serving the laws of a greater master, see #2 and 4 above.
Citadel Vraid is not an 'off case' for the Order of the Nail; it is their Headquarters, the residence of Lictor Diviri himself.
One guy in an order is bad.
Paladin falls!
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Kevin M, per ISWG, p55: "Among [the government in Egorian]'s most powerful mortal tools are the unsubtle, skull-breaking Hellknights." Seems to me the HKs work directly for House Thrune.
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Opened up Castles of Golarion. Yeah, Evil.
1) "...the [Order of the Nail]'s prime directive: the destruction of the indigenous "primitives" who plagued the area." (p25)
Unless someone wants to say Genocide is *not* evil.2) "The inner chapel is used for...Asmodean religious services." (p33)
2a) "[the cleric] is currently assisted by an erinyes..." (p33)
Devil worship and working hand in hand with devils. Every Paladin's dream.3) "...frequently throw troublesome prisoners or slaves [to six lemures] to punish them or prepare them for sacrifice." (p31)
Evil. Unless you think feeding devils is sunshine and funtimes.4) "[the bastions] represent the ideals of Lord Asmodeus: slavery, tyranny and pride." (p27)
All goodly virtues, I assure you. Oh, and so there is no confusion: Tyranny - arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority. (dictionary*dot*com)5) "...Hellknights have never bowed to Varisia's rulers or its laws." (p25)
And, Chaotic, too. Unless, of course, you are serving the laws of a greater master, see #2 and 4 above.Citadel Vraid is not an 'off case' for the Order of the Nail; it is their Headquarters, the residence of Lictor Diviri himself.
Well end of the day the Paizo staff have come on and told you that the Hellknight orginisation is not evil but if you want to say the people who made the hellknights are wrong well fair enough
Also funnily enough during the PFS scenario that you visit the Nail's headquaters to free a prisoner A fair number of the hellknights you encounter are LN With one the centaur being LG heck even th evil ones (With one exception) come across as pretty reaonable.
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To be fair they already pointed out that as well.
Hellknights can be anywhere from LG to LE, for all the reason folks have noted. The reason it may seem like there are way more examples/descriptions of Hellknights which seem more LE is due primarily to bias inherent in the authors and adventures. One huge factor is that Hellknights *look* so cool and creepy that it's really tempting to use them as bad guys in adventures (and let's face it: most folks you meet in adventures are bad guys, because we tend not to spend a lot of time describing/illustrating people unless you're going to fight them, due to space concerns).................................................................. .........................................................................
So yeah--even if we've accidentally made the group sound primarily evil, I know that Wes (their creator) would say that the whole thing that makes the Hellknights cool is that they're *not* necessarily evil--just super hard-liner lawful cop-types... with maybe a bit more leaning toward the "Judge Dredd" mindset than we modern folks would be okay with. (After all, I didn't say there *weren't* lots of LE folks in there. :D)
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Also, just a reminder that while we may speak out about what *we* think regarding a given organization, everyone's welcome to do whatever they want in their home games! We just want to sell you books and ideas--what you do with them is entirely up to you. Honestly, I've always thought of our books more as ingredients than prepared dishes, anyway.
If you want the Hellknights to be thoroughly evil-bad-nasty, then they *are* for you! You obviously don't need our blessing, but if you want it, you've got it. :)
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Kevin M, per ISWG, p55: "Among [the government in Egorian]'s most powerful mortal tools are the unsubtle, skull-breaking Hellknights." Seems to me the HKs work directly for House Thrune.
Going by that one sentence in the Inner Sea World guide, yes. They work directly for House Thrune.
Going by everything else written about Hellknights, both within the Inner Sea World Guide and elsewhere, then no. They don't work directly for House Thrune (with the probably exception of the Order of the Rack).
Citadel Vraid is not an 'off case' for the Order of the Nail; it is their Headquarters, the residence of Lictor Diviri himself.
Yes, and if you read the history of Citadel Vraid in that same book you'll also know that it is apparently haunted, was built atop old ruins, and that something in the basement there has driven at least two of the previous leaders insane.
Which means there is either some ancient Runelord magic, or some ancient Nidalese magic at work on the Order of the Nail.
The keep is built over what was once Eurythnia. For all we know a Runelord could be buried there (maybe Envy or Pride. I think it would be a great turnabout if the Runelord of Pride ended up being a coward who abandoned his kingdom. Or maybe someone was visiting Sorshen when things went down and fled into the mountains to hide?)
A few years ago a good friend and I had a lengthy discussion on what alignment means. To sum that up we got two basic points, in D&D derivative games 1) It is tangible; you can sense it assuming you have the 'equipment' (ie, spells, powers) and 2) evil is as evil does - Writing N on your character sheet does not make you N, *being* balanced does. The Enchanter that consistently superimposes their will on victims (Charm, Dominate...) cannot maintain a N alignment for long; taking someone's free will is evil, and it would be detectable (if the Aura was strong enough!)
Thank you to James Sutter for helping out :) He already explained (and I read that, too!) that as an editor they run into freelance writers that want the spiky evil looking guys to *always* be evil. Got that, but my basic argument is "When does Law and Balance tip?" HKs do strongly adhere to LAW, but they do so at the expense of Good. That is to say that even if the majority of members are LN, and seek to preserve order to protect civilization, there are enough evil members to pull them south of the Neutral position they crave.
I have shown many cases (published by the Golem) where the HKs demonstrate not just 'training to fight' but training to fight *like* Hell. HKs, collectively and most of the orders individually, have so little Good in them there is no counterbalance to the Evil in their ranks. I suddenly had the vision of a car with two different sized tires on; two larger ones (driver's front and passenger's rear) and two smaller ones on the opposite corners. The car would handle like poop and you either have to change the tires to all small (Evil) or all large (Neutral) because the opposing forces require resolution. Or, at the very least they would have to put the small ones up front and the big ones in the back :) Maybe the true believers in the HKs need to purge the truly infernal in their ranks? Maybe that'd be a kick ass AP?
Abby Temps (you rock, btw!) has argued that there are other orders that do good, but they are the minority, and not at all well fleshed out. Throughout Paizo's writing the HKs are described as ruthless, hidebound, and often downright evil. (Abby loves the Rack, sorry secret's out ;) ) Are there any specific examples of Good things they do? Like feeding kittens? (j/k Kittens need punting ;) )
number 5 isn't chaotic, you don't have to obey all laws you just have to believe in order
So, picking and choosing which Laws to follow is... Lawful? I see it as either Chaotic (choose your own adventure!) or less likely, Evil. It would be Evil if the Laws you are following are the emulated Laws of Hell, or the delivered Laws of Hell and its hierarchal society; "Everyone has a Boss. Mine happens to be Asmodeus. Your mortal laws are trash." But, this arrangement was not stated, so no assumptions on my part about that.
Also, HKs are so much about LAW that they are beholden to follow Laws. Failing to do so undermines their claims of LAWLAWLAW. Except that one. Oh, and that one, too. And we can ignore this law, too. It's poorly written. (Suddenly I am seeing the Pigs in Animal Farm...All Hellknights are created equal, but some are more equal)
I think everyone has a different idea on how alignments work and how to define them, so its easy for one person to say someone's capable of being X and another person to say that its impossible.
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Abby Temps (you rock, btw!) has argued that there are other orders that do good, but they are the minority, and not at all well fleshed out. Throughout Paizo's writing the HKs are described as ruthless, hidebound, and often downright evil. (Abby loves the Rack, sorry secret's out ;) ) Are there any specific examples of Good things they do? Like feeding kittens? (j/k Kittens need punting ;) )
I believe there is one that may fit the bill in one of the short stories on the Paizo Blog.
Also the female Hellknight at the back of the Cheliax book as another example.