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I am concerned that you might be confusing a possibility with an announcement of a certainty. See this blog post. Response to the lottery concept, as I recall, was rather poor.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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There was not enough positive interest to institute it so I have scrapped that idea.
Hm. Yeah. Random would make people grumpy if they missed out.
I remember reading an article one time about randomness in the game of Magic: the idea of Hypnotic Specter, for instance, taking a random card from a player's hand. The highs and lows of the result were very "swingy," meaning that if a good card was hit, the player taking it away was elated while the player losing it was utterly devastated. Meanwhile, if a bad card was hit, the player taking it was still okay with the success of getting a card, while the player losing it was also okay with not losing something better.
Thus, random was deemed a poor mechanic. Much better to leave it to player choice. So, in Magic most cards with a discard mechanic began being written as having no randomness: it became a strategic decision for the player losing the card, but the player taking the card still had the good feeling of actually removing that card from his opponent's hand. Much better for all involved.
Long and short of it: make it player decision. I really like the idea of tying a race boon to a chronicle. Rats of Round Mountain, for instance, could have had a Ratfolk race boon. But the only way to get it was to get through the adventure and earn both prestige, or not kill a single ratfolk, or save the ratfolk fairy godmother, or whatever. And, by being put in Tier 7-11 adventures, you are prompting people to get their PCs to that level and play them (and play them well). Oh, and make sure that a pre-gen player can't get the boon. Actual PCs, only.
Anyhoo, if you want to revisit the ideas in that blog post, those are my thoughts.
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....But the only way to get it was to get through the adventure and earn both prestige, or not kill a single ratfolk, or save the ratfolk fairy godmother, or whatever. ...
And then you meet one of those people who just want to kill everything^^
Or who roleplay a Paladin, someone from Andor, or many, many other things.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I've seen a couple of times now people think new races should be earned through playing a scenario. However, when I proposed the same exact thing for PrC such as Hellknight and Winter Witch, there was a huge backlash. So, I'm not apt to go that direction with races either.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I've seen a couple of times now people think new races should be earned through playing a scenario. However, when I proposed the same exact thing for PrC such as Hellknight and Winter Witch, there was a huge backlash. So, I'm not apt to go that direction with races either.
Fair point. I remember that, as well. Leave it canned; that thread was stupid.
Then again, you already know my views on more races.
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I've seen a couple of times now people think new races should be earned through playing a scenario. However, when I proposed the same exact thing for PrC such as Hellknight and Winter Witch, there was a huge backlash. So, I'm not apt to go that direction with races either.
I think people were upset because they felt those should have been included from the get-go. On the other hand, since new races default to "not available," I think it's different.
Also, keep in mind that there's a difference between a PrC and a character-start option. If I'm going to build a character for five levels looking for a specific PrC, I want to know whether it's going to be available, and I don't want that to be contingent on something else. But starting a new character, that can wait until things line up. Consider Thassilonian Specialist--has there been much complaint about that? This might also be a good way to slowly introduce archetypes that you don't want to be everywhere. Or even the classes from the new book next year, if you don't want those to just flood in (although I'd get ahead of that announcement now, so people can get the whining out of their systems).
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....But the only way to get it was to get through the adventure and earn both prestige, or not kill a single ratfolk, or save the ratfolk fairy godmother, or whatever. ...
And then you meet one of those people who just want to kill everything^^
Or who roleplay a Paladin, someone from Andor, or many, many other things.
Sure, but then you just GM it. :D
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I've seen a couple of times now people think new races should be earned through playing a scenario. However, when I proposed the same exact thing for PrC such as Hellknight and Winter Witch, there was a huge backlash. So, I'm not apt to go that direction with races either.I think people were upset because they felt those should have been included from the get-go. On the other hand, since new races default to "not available," I think it's different.
Also, keep in mind that there's a difference between a PrC and a character-start option. If I'm going to build a character for five levels looking for a specific PrC, I want to know whether it's going to be available, and I don't want that to be contingent on something else. But starting a new character, that can wait until things line up. Consider Thassilonian Specialist--has there been much complaint about that? This might also be a good way to slowly introduce archetypes that you don't want to be everywhere. Or even the classes from the new book next year, if you don't want those to just flood in (although I'd get ahead of that announcement now, so people can get the whining out of their systems).
Everything defaults to "not available" until I review it and add it to Additional Resources. The plan all along was to allow the boon to be placed on a new character to work toward the prestige class. However, the idea was shouted down before the full plan could be offered.
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Everything defaults to "not available" until I review it and add it to Additional Resources. The plan all along was to allow the boon to be placed on a new character to work toward the prestige class. However, the idea was shouted down before the full plan could be offered.
That's how it actually works, but that's not the perception among the player base.
What I recall from that was the AR updating and leaving out two PrCs that people had been very much looking forward to. It was only after a lot of screaming that it was revealed that those PrCs were intended to become available via Chronicle later, at which point the torches and pitchforks had already been broken out; people don't like to set those down until they get what they want.
I think an advance announcement of the plan might have alleviated some of that reaction. (I'm not saying you should have known that at the time; it was the first experiment in such things.) But I think there would have still been quite a bit of grumping, because, again, a roadblock to continuing a character in progress vs. an option for one's next new character aren't the same thing.
It's about the way the information is received: If people feel like something is being taken away--even though, as you point out, it's actually not theirs until you say it is--they get upset. If people feel like something is being given to them, though, they get happy.
Remember that the 3% (or whatever) of your player base that's vocal on these boards is also the 3% that's passionate enough to be vocal on these boards. Which means they're emotional about it to begin with, and the responsiveness of the campaign staff to our feedback creates a sense of community ownership, which just compounds the emotions. (That's not a bad thing. But it is a thing, and there's no sense denying it.) Remember also my favorite quote from Men in Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
Finally, at the risk of being perceived as non-cynical and/or optimistic, just because one's first experiment didn't work out doesn't mean the entire concept needs to be scrapped. If at first, etc etc. :)
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I've seen a couple of times now people think new races should be earned through playing a scenario. However, when I proposed the same exact thing for PrC such as Hellknight and Winter Witch, there was a huge backlash. So, I'm not apt to go that direction with races either.
I think that was because
1) PFS allows so much the default expectation for non races is "it will be allowed"
2) People see it on the Banned list and say "what the hell?" not knowing if it was banned for being overpowered, anti themetic, or messing with WBL
3) Since PfS is against farming scenarios for chronicle sheets, you didn't announce (or at least a lot of people hadn't hadn't seen an announcement) that it would be available on a chronicle in a future scenario. So as far as people seemed to know they were banned and that was the end of it.
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3) Since PfS is against farming scenarios for chronicle sheets, you didn't announce (or at least a lot of people hadn't hadn't seen an announcement) that it would be available on a chronicle in a future scenario. So as far as people seemed to know they were banned and that was the end of it.
This is a good point. Chronicles were still generally pretty boring at the time--the idea of one unlocking a PrC probably never occurred to a lot of people.
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And what of the popular sentiment that failing to earn a boon is just cause for breaking out the torches and pitchforks? One concern is that tying something particularly flashy that requires a particular success condition to a Chronicle sheet is that we will have a flood of people who a) complain when they failed to meet the condition, b) complain when they wern't alerted what was at stake (and possibly played a "suboptimal" character by whatever definition), and/or c) hear about what's at stake and crave it so maddly that they read the scenario ahead of time.
Work under the assumption that Mike and I are both familiar with the following two common responses: "cheaters are gonna cheat" and "you can't please everyone." The former is no reason to bait the animals, and the latter tends to result in torches and pitchforks no matter our best intentions.
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And what of the popular sentiment that failing to earn a boon is just cause for breaking out the torches and pitchforks?
Like I need bait!
I think the response would be to DM it. Or DM ten of something and use your star to replay it. Throwing together a second table can be mildly problematic with a low population area but its light years easier than throwing together 15 tables in a weekend for a convention.
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...b) complain when they wern't alerted what was at stake (and possibly played a "suboptimal" character by whatever definition), and/or ...
In the case of the prestige class I could imagine the scenerio having an advance warning. Maybe something like a page walks in to your VC meeting and hands you a note saying
The sun finds you in Absalom; while you are there...
Oh, how I wish I had the time to shop in Absalom—luckily you do....
I liked the idea, however I agree with your points. Why feed the fire?
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...b) complain when they wern't alerted what was at stake (and possibly played a "suboptimal" character by whatever definition), and/or ...In the case of the prestige class I could imagine the scenerio having an advance warning. Maybe something like a page walks in to your VC meeting and hands you a note saying ** spoiler omitted ** or ** spoiler omitted ** or even ** spoiler omitted **
I liked the idea, however I agree with your points. Why feed the fire?
What has been as much an issue over the past several months is the idea of something not being apparent even before a player sits down to start the adventure. Some players seem to want to know what's at stake and how best they can plan their characters' adventures without even hearing that briefing, because at that point they've already locked in that character to receive credit. I'm familiar with arguments tied to this issue as it relates to Season 5 faction goals (a matter being discussed in other threads, so we need not derail this thread with such), and so I am reticent to implement such with other forms of reward.
It seems obvious to me that folks really want to play different races/classes/etc. That very versatility is what has endeared Pathfinder to me. There must be some way to allow versatility to those who want it, while more conformity (not used in my normal derogatory useage of the word) for those who prefer that. I'm all for any option that moves that direction!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And what of the popular sentiment that failing to earn a boon is just cause for breaking out the torches and pitchforks?Like I need bait!
I think the response would be to DM it. Or DM ten of something and use your star to replay it. Throwing together a second table can be mildly problematic with a low population area but its light years easier than throwing together 15 tables in a weekend for a convention.
I agree with this. I passed on playing The enigma vaults last week, as I'd GMed it and didn't have anyone I wanted to play though it. I'll cheerfully burn a GM star to run/play it again if I have a character in the level I want to run.
Also, When I played <redacted> I had one character who couldn't get the familiar boon. So I ran it with another character in mind. Due to the Inheritance story, I've an idea for a gnome wizard, so I might burn a star to get him on a second PC.
Now this wouldn't be the issue with a race boon attached to a series (unless you have to play in order, or it is a conditional boon) but even if I 'lost' the boon playing "Shadowfolk of Sarkoris" and "The Kayal who came in from the cold," I could GM it and get the boon.
Hmm... What if the scenario/race combo was restricted to GMs only? So if I GMed "An ifrit in Irrisen" and got an ifrit boon, the players (who would then be aware of the boon) could play it. Not enough people in your area to run it again? Well time to teach people. :-)
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Everything defaults to "not available" until I review it and add it to Additional Resources. The plan all along was to allow the boon to be placed on a new character to work toward the prestige class. However, the idea was shouted down before the full plan could be offered.I've seen a couple of times now people think new races should be earned through playing a scenario. However, when I proposed the same exact thing for PrC such as Hellknight and Winter Witch, there was a huge backlash. So, I'm not apt to go that direction with races either.I think people were upset because they felt those should have been included from the get-go. On the other hand, since new races default to "not available," I think it's different.
Also, keep in mind that there's a difference between a PrC and a character-start option. If I'm going to build a character for five levels looking for a specific PrC, I want to know whether it's going to be available, and I don't want that to be contingent on something else. But starting a new character, that can wait until things line up. Consider Thassilonian Specialist--has there been much complaint about that? This might also be a good way to slowly introduce archetypes that you don't want to be everywhere. Or even the classes from the new book next year, if you don't want those to just flood in (although I'd get ahead of that announcement now, so people can get the whining out of their systems).
I personally thought the idea was good Mike. I looked on it as YOU were rolling the dice and giving folks who aren't at a Con a chance to get in the fun.
Sure, its' random, but so is winning a boon at a con. I've missed 3 boons by less than 2 points on the die roll (and purposely blew a roll to get a 12 year old a boon)
The only difference is you're doing the rolling with a much bigger collection of tables than a local con.
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And what of the popular sentiment that failing to earn a boon is just cause for breaking out the torches and pitchforks? One concern is that tying something particularly flashy that requires a particular success condition to a Chronicle sheet is that we will have a flood of people who a) complain when they failed to meet the condition, b) complain when they wern't alerted what was at stake (and possibly played a "suboptimal" character by whatever definition), and/or c) hear about what's at stake and crave it so maddly that they read the scenario ahead of time.
Work under the assumption that Mike and I are both familiar with the following two common responses: "cheaters are gonna cheat" and "you can't please everyone." The former is no reason to bait the animals, and the latter tends to result in torches and pitchforks no matter our best intentions.
Then you say, "Okay, so GM it."
Edit: IMO, etc.
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The plan all along was to allow the boon to be placed on a new character to work toward the prestige class. However, the idea was shouted down before the full plan could be offered.
Mike I don't think this was clear when you made this idea known. I think many of us, including myself, were under the assumption the boon of making a Hellknight would be only available to the PC that played through the scenario, in fact there are posts in that thread saying the same from other posters.
I think you may have seen less complaints about the idea if you made it clear the PRC would be available to any of the players PCs not just the PC who played through it.
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And what of the popular sentiment that failing to earn a boon is just cause for breaking out the torches and pitchforks? One concern is that tying something particularly flashy that requires a particular success condition to a Chronicle sheet is that we will have a flood of people who a) complain when they failed to meet the condition, b) complain when they wern't alerted what was at stake (and possibly played a "suboptimal" character by whatever definition), and/or c) hear about what's at stake and crave it so maddly that they read the scenario ahead of time.
Work under the assumption that Mike and I are both familiar with the following two common responses: "cheaters are gonna cheat" and "you can't please everyone." The former is no reason to bait the animals, and the latter tends to result in torches and pitchforks no matter our best intentions.
Then you say, "Okay, so GM it."
Edit: IMO, etc.
Yeah that works real good with the guy in my lodge who literally can't speak above a whisper or the person who had a block about it.
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Yeah that works real good with the guy in my lodge who literally can't speak above a whisper or the person who had a block about it.Then you say, "Okay, so GM it."
Edit: IMO, etc.
Okay, we have two options here:
1. "If you aren't going to GM, you are voluntarily losing a second chance at a boon like this. Sorry."
2. If you have people who are prevented from GMing by physical/mental disabilities (which I assume is what you're getting at), start a petition to make PFS equal-access. (I don't know what that would look like, so you should probably come up with some ways to implement it too.)
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2. If you have people who are prevented from GMing by physical/mental disabilities (which I assume is what you're getting at), start a petition to make PFS equal-access. (I don't know what that would look like, so you should probably come up with some ways to implement it too.)
There is always play by post or online.
And what of the popular sentiment that failing to earn a boon is just cause for breaking out the torches and pitchforks?
I wouldn't make such a boon require anything more than success at the mission's primary objective, for the very reasons you give. I realize that doesn't do much to restrict access to the boon, other than limit it to 1 (or 2) per person - which is why I really like the 'rotating availability' of boon races, with 2 or 3 a year being either freely available, or issued to everyone who has/earns a GM star that year. Especially if the availability is tied into the theme of the year, and it's made clear that 'phased out' races will return in a future year (even if which specific year is not yet announced).
Wait YEARS to play a race in PFS? I don't have that kind of patience...
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As I've said in another thread, I feel like the Thassilonian Specialist boon is one of the best boons I've seen, since beyond being a reward for that particular player, it feels like it represents a victory for the Pathfinder Society as a whole. "Oh, we did this awesome thing and discovered this lost knowledge. Let's train some Pathfinders in this knowledge now." I'd love to see more PrCs and archetypes opened up that way. I think I missed the whole Hellknight and Winter Witch conversation before, but those both sound like reasonable things to tie to a scenario.
I'm curious. The special boon for Way of the Kirin and Rivalry's End are similar to this discussion. Both had a fantastic reward that everyone wanted, and both were announced ahead of time that some kind of super cool reward would be there. What was the feedback on that like?
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What has been as much an issue over the past several months is the idea of something not being apparent even before a player sits down to start the adventure.
While I do not like missing out on a unique reward, I consider the 'surprise' of said reward to be the bigger err... reward.
I understand a lot of people feel that way. I wonder what the percentages of each camp are?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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What has been as much an issue over the past several months is the idea of something not being apparent even before a player sits down to start the adventure. Some players seem to want to know what's at stake and how best they can plan their characters' adventures without even hearing that briefing, because at that point they've already locked in that character to receive credit. I'm familiar with arguments tied to this issue as it relates to Season 5 faction goals (a matter being discussed in other threads, so we need not derail this thread with such), and so I am reticent to implement such with other forms of reward.
Yeah, right now I'm wondering whether I need to make an effort to play my Osirion PC (or give him GM credit) in all of the Osirion-linked scenarios, as there might be a boon at the end for "catching them all". That is the most pressing issue for me (though I have PCs in every faction), because he is on the cusp of leveling out of the 1-5 range and losing access to the first link in that chain.
EDIT: And my Chelaxian PC is too high level to really do anything with the first two Chelaxian scenarios. Though he did play through the Glories of the Past arc, and I am curious about this army thing...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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What has been as much an issue over the past several months is the idea of something not being apparent even before a player sits down to start the adventure.While I do not like missing out on a unique reward, I consider the 'surprise' of said reward to be the bigger err... reward.
I understand a lot of people feel that way. I wonder what the percentages of each camp are?
Since I GM a fair amount, I feel the same way now. If I play "An ifrit in Irrisen" and get a perk that won't apply to that character (like if I'm playing Ksenia and the boon is cold resistance 5) I can GM it for another.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Since I GM a fair amount, I feel the same way now.
What has been as much an issue over the past several months is the idea of something not being apparent even before a player sits down to start the adventure.While I do not like missing out on a unique reward, I consider the 'surprise' of said reward to be the bigger err... reward.
I understand a lot of people feel that way. I wonder what the percentages of each camp are?
I kinda don't like it when I play something and get a boon that would be perfect for Character #4 but I played it with Character #3, so it is useless. (Like Improved Familiars with a Martial character.)
I don't know a fix for this, short of making boons that duplicate the "extended Additional Resources" type boons. Then making those boons moderately easily obtainable (from Con's etc.)
Keep in mind I simply don't care about the 1 time use boons. Just the boons granting items only purchasable via the sheet or rules elements only purchasable via the sheet. They frustrate me.
Edit: To be clear things like Wand of Magic Missile (5 charges) don't bother me, because I can buy a Wand of Magic Missile with 50 charges.
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I'm curious. The special boon for Way of the Kirin and Rivalry's End are similar to this discussion. Both had a fantastic reward that everyone wanted, and both were announced ahead of time that some kind of super cool reward would be there. What was the feedback on that like?
I know in my area we had some folks create new Lantern Lodge characters and get them to level just to get the special boon. Not too many did that with Shadow Lodge (there was a bit of a time crunch on that one). Some of the same people replayed First Steps II to make sure they chose the "correct" option to do better in Way of the Kirin.
As for me, I played Way of the Kirin with my Shadow Lodge character (he was a better fit, level wise, than my LL Alchemist) and never got to play the Shadow Lodge special (ran it instead). They were fun scenarios, and I look forward to running them for newer players.