So, I decided to build a dragon disciple. I'm mainly looking to get some input on survivability, especially at low level. I'm trying to balance martial prowess and spellcasting.
Race: Nagaji
Class: Sorcerer 3/Paladin 2/ Dragon disciple 8
Abilities: (25 pts)
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 17
Sorcerer 3 Bloodline (gold dragon)
1 Skill focus (survival)
2
3 Power Attack
Paladin 2
4
5 Eldritch heritage (orcish)
Dragon disciple 8
6
7 Arcane strike, bonus(improved initiative)
8
9 Sorcerous Strike
10 Bonus(Toughness)
11 Improved eldritch jeritage (orcish, strength of the beast)
12
13 Flyby attack, Bonus (blindfight)
I based myself on osterisk's guide. I quite like the combo of paladin & dragon disciple, especially for a gold dragon bloodline. I've got a good character concept written up and this fits very well.
So what do you guys think? There will definitly be survivability issues at lower level, and I'll have to avoid the frontline for levels 1-5. The claws will be of limited usefulness. Eldritch heritage (orcish) should be good for buffing others/ increasing my strength. Arcane strike is useful since the DD doesnt have much swift action usage. Sorcerous strike is useful for recharging abilities (though I wish the claws scaled with level). The bonus feats are moderately interesting (they are pretty general purpose, but still faily useful). I dont know how useful flyby attack would be, but I dont see anything much else useful. I thought of taking Improved eldritch heritage(orcish: fearless); fear immunity is nice, though it's disappointing the natural armor bonus doesn't stack.
So, how can I increase my chances of survival at low level? I know I will be dependent on mage armor at lower levels. Maybe use a sling at earl levels to stay out of melee?
I'm also looking for ideas at higher level. I was thinking of eldritch knight (for bab and spells) or sorcerer (for bloodline powers & spells).
What do you guys think?
I'm specifically trying this out with nagaji. Oracle could work though.
While there is a bunch of cool racial feats for the kobold, the -4 in strength is just a tremendous loss. As I see it, it seriously reduces your capacity to hit unbuffed. I dont think I could get decent STR without min-maxing (which I would rather avoid).
Why would kobold be good (besides rp/flavor)?
I don't think oracle would work, unless you also take levels in another casting class. Because dragon disciple requires being able to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Oracle doesnt quite work. You need to be able to spontaneously cast arcane spells.
To this end, though, I actually like Bard as a lead-in class. 3/4 BAB instead of 1/2. They can cast in a mithral BP without penalty. Inspire courage +2 by level 5. Arcane duelist gets Arcane Strike for free at 1st and Rallying cry to help with fear effects... OR you can be a Dervish of Dawn and inspire courage only on your self for +4 to hit and damage, 12+charisma modifier rounds per day. That should be most fights, and you can always turn off performance when you're casting.
Man, I forgot the dragon disciple was purely arcane. Well, I've still got sorcerer.
Wow, don't any of you know about the scaled disciple feat...?
This may surprise you, but not everybody is aware of every feat that exists.
I don't intend to hijack the thread, but with regard to the Bard casting in mithral BP, They would still require the Medium Armor proficiency feat yes? From feat purchase, or class dip? Mithral would make the BP light armor, but it still requires the Med armor feat, iirc.
If you have an ability or trait (such as armor expert) that lowers the armor check penalty, you can lower the acp of a mithril breastplate to 0, thus allowing you to use it without any penalty.
checked out scaled disciple. It's an iffy feat (the whole "they cant even learn the supposed domain the feat is associated" with is kinda weird) but in the end the trmendous strength penalty to them is just monstrous. Thematically it fits, sure, but it just doesnt seem pratical. The strength boosts just arent enough to turn the kobold into a beast-type DD. A caster maybe, but not a beast.
If that's the build you want to go with and you're worried about survivability early on, take your two Paladin levels first. Personally, I'm not a fan of the new ruling that allows you to 'backdoor' into these prestige classes with a single racial SLA, but that's just me.
We've actually got a DD in our Wrath of the Righteous group (haven't started just yet) and he's being built as a straight Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple. You take much less of a hit to your spell-casting which is the most important aspect of this character - sooner access to Dragon Form, sooner access to Transformation, sooner access to all your bloodline powers and feats. The Paladin dip can make for some nice RP synergy with Gold (and Silver) Dragon builds, but at the end of the day its a trap in my opinion.
I tend to agree with your dislike of the prestige class "backdoor" wiggz. It seems a bit of a cop-out but eh, prestige classes have it hard enough as it is in pathfinder.
However I think the multiclass into paladin can be worth, namely for the weapon proficiency, the smite evil (even if it's only 1/day, it can be used while in dragon form) and the divine grace. I'm going to eventually have chrisma coming out of the wazoo, and adding that to my lackluster saves is a godsend. I probably should take paladin first though.
While I do hate the hit to spellcasting, this is one of those cases where I dont think it's a good idea to go full caster. Your bab is going to be extremly low (even at level 15, a mere +10). And your strength, even in dragon form, cant fully compensate. I've done the build up to level 13, and even with the boosts of strength from DD, orcish heritage, and 2 of the level bonuses, it's a +7 modifier. With a decent belt, +9 (+8 if I also want to boost con). In dragon form I, +11 (+10). Very nice numbers indeed, but I havent played at all at those level and I dont know if it's enough, especially in consideration to average DR/AC. An AOMF would be necessary, but the cost is just so much that i'd rather not bother with it. Especially when I only have about 3+cha rounds/day of natural attacks, and 1-2 uses of dragon form.
Despite the 3/4 spellcasting, would you casting stay high enough for you to survive until your strength got ridiculous? Would it compensate for low BAB? I really dont know.
A lot of it has to do with what role you want to play in the party. If you're going to be the primary melee threat then that's one thing, if you're going to be the primary caster that's another. Huge consideration there. Ideally you'd be neither and would be able to slip into whatever role was needed most in a secondary capacity. Another thing to think about is what level range this character will most likely be played at.
I'd be happy to share withb you the build we're using, if only for comparison's sake. It might provide some useful ideas or insights you can modify or take advantage of.
I would be glad to. I was aiming for the flexible choice (secondary caster, secondary melee). At the moment this is an entirely theoretical build, so I'm aiming for survivability at all levels, even if it only matures later.
I'd love to see what others are doing. I'll post up my sheet later tonight, and I'll see what it gives.
Well, there's always the route bard (arcane duelist)--> dragon disciple.
While spell selection is situational and less diverse (but still full caster!), survivability (hit dice, casting in armor, skills, two good saves) are ok.
Buffing is good (Inspire Courage, haste and heroism in one round at later levels) and BAB is slightly better, too.
My current bard/dd looks like this (we rolled stats and I got lucky and my GM is generous concerning WBL):
Lorgalis______________________________________________________CR 7
XP 35,000
Male human arcane duelist 5/dragon disciple 2 (gold)
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +11
________________________________________
DEFENSE
________________________________________
AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural)
hp 73 (5d8+2d12+24)_____________________rolled: 8,8,7,4,3,10,9
Fort +6; Ref +9; Will +10; +2 vs. fear- and charm-effects if under Inspire Courage
________________________________________
OFFENSE
________________________________________
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 cold iron longspear +12 (1d8+11/x3) or 2 claws +13 (1d4+8) and bite +12 (1d6+11)
Melee (IC+AS) +1 cold iron longspear +14 (1d8+15/x3) or 2 claws +15 (1d4+12) and bite +14 (1d6+15)
Special attacks arcane strike (+2 damage, treat weapon as magic for overcoming DR, swift action), bardic performance 17 rounds/day (standard action; distraction, fascinate, inspire competence +2, inspire courage +2, rallying cry), claws (2, 1d4+7, 8 rounds/day), dragon bite (1d6+10)
Bard Spells Known (CL 6th, concentration +11, +15 if casting defensively)
2nd (4/day)—-heroism, invisibility, mirror image, pyrotechnics
1st (6/day)—-cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, feather fall, feather step, grease, saving finale
0 (at will)-—detect magic, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic
Bloodline draconic (gold)
________________________________________
STATISTICS
________________________________________
Str 24 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 20
Base Atk +4 CMB +11 (+13 if under Inspire Courage) CMD 23 (25 if under Inspire Courage)
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +8, Appraise +5, Bluff +9, Climb +11, Diplomacy +11, Escape artist +6, Handle animal +6, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Knowledge (geography) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Linguistics +5, Perception +11, Perform (dance) +10, Perform (oratory) +10, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +6
Languages Common, Draconic, eine weitere
SQ arcane bond (+1 cold iron longspear), blood of dragons
Other gear ring of protection +1, +1 elven chain, belt of giant strength +2, headband of alluring charisma +2, cloak of resistance +2, +1 cold iron longspear, amulet of mighty fists +1
Ruyan.
I don't intend to hijack the thread, but with regard to the Bard casting in mithral BP, They would still require the Medium Armor proficiency feat yes? From feat purchase, or class dip? Mithral would make the BP light armor, but it still requires the Med armor feat, iirc.
Can I ask about your choices for power attack, and skill focus? Will you be playing in a campaign where your survival skill will come into play early and often? I know it does in Serpent's Skull, but I don't recall much of it in the few other APs I've played. If the DM has given guidance I totally get it. Power attack is always iffy with me and non-full-BAB adventurers, because you already start at a BAB penalty with relation to the full BAB classes. From a flavor aspect it makes sense, because dragons are supposed to be Smaug-like destroyers.
Without proficiency you take your armor check penalty on attack rolls
But a masterwork mithral breastplate has no armor check penalty... so no problem. This is a pretty common trick.
Dragon disciples are not full casters, mostly -- they're melee types who use spellcasting and bloodline powers to back that up.
Still don't know why people are talking about oracles as they clearly don't cast arcane spells.
If you have a GM that is willing to fudge things I guess.
Well, there was the whole "scaled disciple" thing that was supposed to qualify a kobold. This is only really possible for humans/partial humans, but it's not terribly useful.
And I know full well DDs arent full casters, I'm just trying to get a balance between casty and melee goodness.
@ryuan
I thought about bard, but thematically it just doesnt work in my head. Looks like a nice build though.
Still don't know why people are talking about oracles as they clearly don't cast arcane spells.
If you have a GM that is willing to fudge things I guess.
Scaled Discipe for kobolds: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/scaled-disciple
It appears in the Kobolds of Golarion book, and allows a kobold to replace the spont arcane casting with spont divine casting, and the DD improving your divine caster level instead of arcane. But their -4 to Str is a bit much. However, there is another feat (Small but Deadly) that does this: "You ignore your Strength penalty to damage when making attacks with your racial natural weapons and weapons for which you have the Weapon Focus feat." Go for Weapon Finesse (since kobolds get a +2 to Dex) and you won't be quite so gimped.
just out of curiosity, why Nagaji instead of Angelkin Aasimar (which is clearly a stronger option)? purely RP? there's a lot of different thoughts on a lot of different things in this thread, lol. here's my thoughts on a few of them.
- starting paladin would certainly help your survivability. it would also give you the option at low levels to just wear armor and focus more on spells with no somatic components (like True Strike), or take your chances with the ASF%...
- are you using the retraining rules? if so, you could start with toughness (for extra survivability) and retrain it to Skill Focus later when you need that for EH.
- bard is, actually, a pretty solid option (IMO) for a DD that's aiming for solid melee with secondary caster ability. i like Archaeologist for this for their swift action Luck bonus (especially nice with the Fate's Favored trait), though you'd really want to make room for lingering performance in that build. but, keeping the 2 level pally dip, you're saves would benefit nicely and you wouldn't need the armor expert trait to benefit from a mithril breastplate.
- the oracle route is actually pretty solid too... start with an Angelkin Aasimar with Scion of Humanity racial alternative and take the feat Racial Heritage [kobold] (a human could take that and have a feat leftover at 1st, but the other racials aren't nearly as good). then pick up the scaled disciple feat at 5th. this would let you go into DD as a pally 2/lore oracle 3- wearing whatever armor you want (since no ASF%), and dumping your Dex (since you'll use Cha for AC and Reflex anyways) to pick up more points for Str=Cha>Con. much higher survivability at all levels due to always having a better AC than an arcane caster (and once you start stacking Nat AC with your armor and Cha you should have the highest AC in the party). the one downside is that it eats up some of your feats (which you don't have a ton of to spare).
- the eldritch heritage [orcish] feats get a lot of attention on the forums... more than they should (IMO). they do not stack with other inherent bonuses (like those from tomes or wishes) so all they really do is save you some money... the only really effective use of the first power i've seen is as a self buff (which only works if you take the Optimistic Gambler trait and/or the Quicken SLA monster feat) but that requires some investment too...
well, there's my 2 copper worth... hopefully there's something useful in there [/rambling]
The nagaji is really an roleplay choice. Despite mechanical superiority, i'm not terribly fond of aasimar. And as I said before, this is a theoretical build. Will I ever get to play it? God only knows.
Note: Can you actually use touch of rage on yourself? It only lasts one round, and costs a standard action to use.
As for the STR bonus, it is better then anything you can get from the books, and cheaper. Maybe not the best choice though, considering it costs 2 marginally useful feats. Any decent alternatives for what I already have (IE, sorcerer+pally+DD)?
Are you permitted 3rd party material? If so super genius games has the Koldemar in the genius guide to the Kobold Kings. They are a version of kobolds on par with the core races, including a ratial option that makes them medium sized and their stat bonuses in strength and charisma (a real boon for dragon disciples).
Interesting. But like I said, this is a theoretical build (maybe that word is invisible?), so I'm sticking to paizo stuff. I do seem to remeber in D&D there was some sort of "elevetad kobold" that was medium-sized and blessed by the gods or something.
optimistic gambler is a sick trait that gives Touch of Rage a (variable) duration. if you take Quicken SLA (which I think you'd qualify for starting at 10th level) you could buff yourself as a swift action and it would last for 1 round without the trait or 1d4+1 rounds with it.
the Str bonus from the Orcish bloodline is nice... but sort of situational... it doesn't kick in at all (when using EH) until the very tail end of where most people play to (around 11-12th level), and when it really becomes significant (15-19th level) you're often looking at campaigns where people are building their PCs already at high levels (which makes it easier to work tomes/wishes into their wealth). i'm not saying that its bad, i'm just saying it doesn't seem as good to me as others seem to think it is... especially for a DD! the abyssal bloodline also gives you that same bonus, but its 1st level power doubles the number of rounds you can claw/claw/bite (read the Dragon Bite ability- it says claws from your bloodline, not "the draconic bloodline").
Optimistic gambler is iffy (since it's a campaign trait, I can see many GMs dissalowing it, so I tend not to use it).
THe orcish stuff is of moderate use, though I question the abyssal bloodline. I could easily see it go either way (Especially since the prerequisites of DD specifically state you must have draconic bloodline). Those claw power really should scale with sorcerer level though.
But yeah, I guess most people do stick to low level play. My current game started at level 5, and where up to 8 about a 1-1/2 months later, and the GM wants to bring is to epics. I'll admit that high-level interests me more than low; I dont like feeling like I'm struggling to do the simplest things in what is basically entertainment/empowerement fantasy.
So, here's a build that goes up to level 13. Several things are missing beyond basic items, since I think she'll probably need some traditional weapons at lower level. For HP, I considered average dice rolls.
I havent included backstory yet, might put later. Her saves are great (thanks to divine grace), her strength is great, decent cha, everything else is average. I'll have to stat up her dragon form though. Do you keep item effects while polymorphed? And which natural armor would apply: her "dragon form " +4 or her far superior +8 (+1 nagaji, +4 draconic bloodline, +3 DD)?
I'm also relying on permanencies, so a ring of counterspells would probably be useful. I LOVE the mnemonic vestment though, with proper planning it can make a sorcerer fairly versatile.
Nice looking build. Very tanky. Not quite what I'm going for, but it shows the versatility of the DD.