[PFS] Naga Aspirant - Where do I start?

[Jiggy]

So I'm trading for a nagaji race boon, and I really like the concept of the naga aspirant druid archetype. Sounds really fun!

Looks a bit complicated though, with lots of important decisions - especially that expanding spell list.

Also, since this is a rare opportunity (can't play a nagaji without said boon), I'd really like to make sure I do what I can to "fully experience" this racial archetype. That means I want to get good use out of the primary features: the expanded spell list and the naga shape.

But I'm not very experienced with druids in the first place.

Any suggestions? Pointers? Traps to avoid?

Thanks!

[RainyDayNinja]

It looks like there are three themes you could emphasize: self-buffing/melee, animal companion buffing, and blasting. Which would you prefer?

[Jiggy]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

It looks like there are three themes you could emphasize: self-buffing/melee, animal companion buffing, and blasting. Which would you prefer?

I feel like I want a focus on being "naga-like", and having an animal companion takes attention away from the actual PC, so I think I'll go with a domain instead.

So let's see... I want to spend a lot of time in naga form, which grants me +4 STR/CON and +2 AC, so that seems to suggest some value in having decent melee potential. On the other hand, nagas are also known for their spellcasting ability, so there's that too.

Maybe stats like this?

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10 (12-2)
WIS 16
CHA 10 (08+2)

Or maybe this?

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 08 (10-2)
WIS 18
CHA 09 (7+2)

Or even this?

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 09 (11-2)
WIS 17
CHA 09 (7+2)

[RainyDayNinja]

I'd tone down the Wisdom; your spells will probably be focused on buffs/utility, with some blasting. And even the extra blasting spells that Naga Aspirants get mostly don't require saves. Maybe something like:

18 Str
12 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
15 Wis
9 Cha

1: Toughness
3: Power Attack
5: Natural Spell
7: Weapon Focus (bite)

You might take the Wis down to 14, and put the extra points into Int, especially if you're getting an extra spell slot from a domain, and aren't as worried about the bonus spells.

[Jiggy]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

I'd tone down the Wisdom; your spells will probably be focused on buffs/utility, with some blasting. And even the extra blasting spells that Naga Aspirants get mostly don't require saves.

Well, I also have my normal druid spells; what about flaming sphere, call lightning, flame strike, baleful polymorph, etc?

Quote:

Maybe something like:

18 Str
12 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
15 Wis
9 Cha

1: Toughness
3: Power Attack
5: Natural Spell
7: Weapon Focus (bite)

I was thinking of maybe taking divine favor as one of my extra spells (with Fate's Favored, of course), making Weapon Focus maybe not that necessary...?

[RainyDayNinja]

Jiggy wrote:

Well, I also have my normal druid spells; what about flaming sphere, call lightning, flame strike, baleful polymorph, etc?

Well then, you're going to have to make a choice: do you want to be a melee snake monster who also casts spells, or a spellcaster who hangs out in snake form for the boost to Con and AC? With no racial bonus to Wis, I don't think investing in good save DCs is going to be worth it, unless you want to just tank your melee stats and just rely on a companion for melee.

[Jiggy]

You don't think a 16/16 split on STR/WIS would work out okay? I mean, between a belt and size bonus, I'd be rocking 22 STR at 6th level. With Power Attack and divine favor/Fate's Favored, I'd then be attacking at +12 for 1d6+18.

You might be right on not wanting to take WIS higher than 16, though. I guess if I were to take, say, Spell Focus (evocation), that'd help the vast majority of my offensive spells, making them comparable to starting with 18 WIS. That's not bad. Hm.

[pauljathome]

In PFS I've found it very valuable (especially below about L9 or so) to be very flexible in role. I very much like being good in melee and good with spells. Depending on the group she is with, my druid has sometimes been the tank, sometimes the support caster, sometimes the blaster, sometimes the healer, etc.

A 16/16 split works VERY well. Coupled with spreading the investments in feats, wealth, etc.

Obviously this means that you'll be a little less effective in either role but only a little less. Being much more effective in the other role more than compensates.

I would seriously consider taking the AC, though. It adds a lot of flexibilty to the character.

[cartmanbeck]

Here's what I'm doing with my PFS Naga Aspirant:

Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10 (12-2), Wis 14, Cha 9 (7+2)

I started off by taking one level of Monk (Maneuver Master) and taking Improved Grapple as my Monk bonus feat. The monk level also gave me Improved Unarmed Strike and Flurry, obviously, and adds my Wisdom to AC when unarmored. My 1st-level feat was Belier's Bite (called Bleeding Attack on d20pfsrd.com) to cause bleed damage with unarmed strikes.

My traits were Adopted [Open Palm of Irori] and Eyes and Ears of the City, to get a few bonus points of damage on an unarmed strike and get Perception as a class skill.

For 2nd level I took my first level in Naga Aspirant (continuing on with that class for the rest), choosing the Serpent Domain (which gives me a snake familiar mostly for flavor purposes)

At 3rd level I took Power Attack as my feat.

The spells I grabbed from the extra spell options were expeditious retreat and mage armor.

I'm planning to make full use of the Naga form of Wild Shape by taking things like Venomous Bite and Poisonous Sting and pumping up my Con with magic items to get the highest DC I can with them.

[Jiggy]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Here's what I'm doing with my PFS Naga Aspirant:

Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10 (12-2), Wis 14, Cha 9 (7+2)

I started off by taking one level of Monk (Maneuver Master) and taking Improved Grapple as my Monk bonus feat. The monk level also gave me Improved Unarmed Strike and Flurry, obviously, and adds my Wisdom to AC when unarmored.

Huh. Interesting idea! Doesn't the BAB loss hurt, though?

[cartmanbeck]

Jiggy wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

Here's what I'm doing with my PFS Naga Aspirant:

Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10 (12-2), Wis 14, Cha 9 (7+2)

I started off by taking one level of Monk (Maneuver Master) and taking Improved Grapple as my Monk bonus feat. The monk level also gave me Improved Unarmed Strike and Flurry, obviously, and adds my Wisdom to AC when unarmored.

Huh. Interesting idea! Doesn't the BAB loss hurt, though?

It does, but when I'm flurrying I get that one BAB back, so it ends up not being that bad. Plus I was able to pick up the PFS boon for the Shadow Lodge that let me get +1 to one ability score, so I've actually got a 19 Str right now, which will boost to 20 at 4th level, so that helps with the attack rolls (and damage, obviously)

[Mergy]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Here's what I'm doing with my PFS Naga Aspirant:

Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10 (12-2), Wis 14, Cha 9 (7+2)

I started off by taking one level of Monk (Maneuver Master) and taking Improved Grapple as my Monk bonus feat. The monk level also gave me Improved Unarmed Strike and Flurry, obviously, and adds my Wisdom to AC when unarmored. My 1st-level feat was Belier's Bite (called Bleeding Attack on d20pfsrd.com) to cause bleed damage with unarmed strikes.

My traits were Adopted [Open Palm of Irori] and Eyes and Ears of the City, to get a few bonus points of damage on an unarmed strike and get Perception as a class skill.

For 2nd level I took my first level in Naga Aspirant (continuing on with that class for the rest), choosing the Serpent Domain (which gives me a snake familiar mostly for flavor purposes)

At 3rd level I took Power Attack as my feat.

The spells I grabbed from the extra spell options were expeditious retreat and mage armor.

I'm planning to make full use of the Naga form of Wild Shape by taking things like Venomous Bite and Poisonous Sting and pumping up my Con with magic items to get the highest DC I can with them.

So I have some bad news for you. Unfortunately, your domain choice replaces Venom Immunity, which is something that is also replaced by Augmented Form.

[cartmanbeck]

Mergy wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

Here's what I'm doing with my PFS Naga Aspirant:

Str 18 (16+2), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10 (12-2), Wis 14, Cha 9 (7+2)

I started off by taking one level of Monk (Maneuver Master) and taking Improved Grapple as my Monk bonus feat. The monk level also gave me Improved Unarmed Strike and Flurry, obviously, and adds my Wisdom to AC when unarmored. My 1st-level feat was Belier's Bite (called Bleeding Attack on d20pfsrd.com) to cause bleed damage with unarmed strikes.

My traits were Adopted [Open Palm of Irori] and Eyes and Ears of the City, to get a few bonus points of damage on an unarmed strike and get Perception as a class skill.

For 2nd level I took my first level in Naga Aspirant (continuing on with that class for the rest), choosing the Serpent Domain (which gives me a snake familiar mostly for flavor purposes)

At 3rd level I took Power Attack as my feat.

The spells I grabbed from the extra spell options were expeditious retreat and mage armor.

I'm planning to make full use of the Naga form of Wild Shape by taking things like Venomous Bite and Poisonous Sting and pumping up my Con with magic items to get the highest DC I can with them.

So I have some bad news for you. Unfortunately, your domain choice replaces Venom Immunity, which is something that is also replaced by Augmented Form.

Ack! Why would that work that way?! No other domains have an archetype-style "This replaces X" in them! GRRRR!

Does this mean I just have to pick a different domain? That's not a huge deal, I suppose.

[Mergy]

Yeah. Some sort of rebuild is called for, although I'm not sure whether it requires using the retraining rules or simply removing the illegal element. Worst-case scenario would require some prestige spent. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(

It's not quite snakelike, but the Frog domain or the Swamp domain remain options for you.

[cartmanbeck]

Mergy wrote:

Yeah. Some sort of rebuild is called for, although I'm not sure whether it requires using the retraining rules or simply removing the illegal element. Worst-case scenario would require some prestige spent. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(

It's not quite snakelike, but the Frog domain or the Swamp domain remain options for you.

I'll probably switch to the Cave domain, since that's still pretty thematic with Naga and tremorsense is pretty awesome.

I'll have to check with my VL to see what's required, since it was absolutely an oversight on my part. :-(

[Jiggy]

In other news, I just had the mental image of delivering a held charge of the poison spell through a poisonous bite attack in naga form. Heh. Heheheheh.

[Kiinyan]

When I was mapping out my naga aspirant I had him very self oriented. Tons of self-buffs, started with a 16 str (+2 from racial to make it an 18) and only around a 14 wisdom. Do DC based spells so I could afford to boost my con and dex a bit more. I find that the Aspirant makes an ungodly tank, with all the perks a magus has (displacement, mirror image, etc.) with a ton of AC boosting spells (mage armor makes wild armor much less necessary until later on) and still respectable damage output. Personally I wasn't impressed by the naga form itself however, since having only 1(or two with investment) natural attack is underwhelming. The trick is, as always, finding a way to participate in combat and cast your plethora of buff spells, so having scouting power (maxed stealth/perception) is very important.

[Jiggy]

How do you recommend stealthing as a large naga? I've never tried to be stealthy before.

[RainyDayNinja]

Jiggy wrote:

How do you recommend stealthing as a large naga? I've never tried to be stealthy before.

Add invisibility to your spell list.

[Jiggy]

Speaking of utility spells, using scrolls as a naga could be a problem. There's the polymorphic pouch from UE, but... I might run into a similar problem.

[cartmanbeck]

Jiggy wrote:

Speaking of utility spells, using scrolls as a naga could be a problem. There's the polymorphic pouch from UE, but... I might run into a similar problem.

The problem there is you lose your arms. How would you pull the scroll out? :(

[Jiggy]

That would be the "similar problem" of which I spoke. I guess if I want to spend any significant amount of time in naga form, I'm gonna have to be really careful about what gear I buy...

[Rycaut]

My plan - though I haven't yet built him yet is to do about the opposite build - dump STR and build a Naga Aspirant focused on being a spell caster & buffer - then get a reptile animal companion (probably a Spinosaurus - 3 natural attacks, STR 18 to start (and DEX 15, CON 15, WIS 13 makes for a great melee focused animal companion - likely boosting INT to 3 eventually and boosting CON a bit). Power Attack is an obvious feat for the AC.

I'll then focus on taking Naga Aspirant spells that either are fantastic attacks OR are buffs that I can via Share Spells cast on my AC (i.e. Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Shield or Shield of Faith, Divine Power, Greater Invisibility and See Invisibility are all really interesting options...

imagine a Greater Invisible, Large dinosaur power attacking w/STR of 28 (or greater) w/mage armor, shield, greater magic fang and other typical druid AC buffs stacked up). I think you will agree that will be fairly fearsome (especially if you can also have an ally cast air walk or otherwise give him flight)...

and you can supplement what your AC is doing with fireballs, scorching rays and the other usual druid caster spells - all while perhaps in greater invisibility yourself.

(Mirror image on an AC in particular really seems potent - as is displacement both being amazing alternatives to boosting armor class and particularly valuable and useful at higher levels - greater invis is just the icing.

[Mergy]

There is also the high charisma option. At level 9 you can get a charm person gaze attack based off your charisma.

[Jiggy]

Meh. That's not "cool". ;)

[Mergy]

I dunno, walking down the street and having everyone fawn over you is pretty cool. :)

Others in this thread have highlighted the two main options: caster-focused with an animal companion and melee-focused. Melee-focused is straightforward, and due to stat-requirements, I would recommend eschewing an animal companion; however, if you get one, you have a flanking buddy.

If you are going melee-focused, it would be ideal to acquire a bite attack in some way, as this would allow you to take Weapon Focus, and to prebuff with greater magic fang without being shifted. Being Adopted by half-orcs is probably the simplest method, but it may be distasteful to some players. Another option is the ring of rat fangs from Ultimate Equipment for 5000 gp.

Regarding the arm problem, grabbing the Toad domain would give you a toad familiar, which would qualify for Improved Familiar, allowing you a companion with opposable thumbs.

Since you will be able to buff your natural attacks by level 5, purchase other special abilities for an amulet of mighty fists, like menacing and ghost touch; the former is especially good if you're grabbing an animal companion.

Regarding the level 9 upgrade, if charming gaze does not appeal to you, I would recommend the swim speed or the natural armour increase. The poison is unfortunately quite weak, and the tail sting will weaken your bite. The defensive upgrades are also probably not necessary for a high Fort/Will class.

All this said, I think this archetype functions better as a caster. You get a lot of good arcane spells from this deal, and combined with the druid list there is a great potential to be an incredible blasting or control caster, who by the way also has a full HD animal companion. Buffing a large constrictor with the typical stuff (bull's strength, animal growth) while you air walk around with greater invisibility up is nice, and it's even nicer if you're also throwing the odd dazing magic missile or fireball. This version does function great with charming gaze, as the melee characters that get up in your face have to either blind themselves or always risk being besties with you.

Whether you are caster focused or melee focused, grab Quicken Spell at level 9 or 11. The benefits of quickened divine favour (for you or your companion) are too good to pass up; make sure that you're also budgeting for Natural Spell so that you're not destroying your casting ability with naga form.

[Jiggy]

Mergy wrote:

Others in this thread have highlighted the two main options: caster-focused with an animal companion and melee-focused. Melee-focused is straightforward, and due to stat-requirements, I would recommend eschewing an animal companion; however, if you get one, you have a flanking buddy.

I still don't understand why I couldn't do both. :/

Quote:

If you are going melee-focused, it would be ideal to acquire a bite attack in some way, as this would allow you to take Weapon Focus, and to prebuff with greater magic fang without being shifted. Being Adopted by half-orcs is probably the simplest method, but it may be distasteful to some players. Another option is the ring of rat fangs from Ultimate Equipment for 5000 gp.

Is the half-orc thing primary or secondary? I seem to recall one or more of the methods of giving a half-orc a bite attack to make it secondary by default. Also, which book has the necessary trait for going the Adopted route?

Quote:

Regarding the arm problem, grabbing the Toad domain would give you a toad familiar, which would qualify for Improved Familiar, allowing you a companion with opposable thumbs.

My main thought is the use of scrolls, wands, rods, and pearls. Would a familiar really help with that?

Quote:

Since you will be able to buff your natural attacks by level 5, purchase other special abilities for an amulet of mighty fists, like menacing and ghost touch; the former is especially good if you're grabbing an animal companion.

I was definitely eyeing a ghost touch AoMF for 4k. :D

Quote:

Regarding the level 9 upgrade, if charming gaze does not appeal to you, I would recommend the swim speed or the natural armour increase. The poison is unfortunately quite weak, and the tail sting will weaken your bite. The defensive upgrades are also probably not necessary for a high Fort/Will class.

Agreed.

[Mergy]

You can attempt both, but looking at the numbers, I would say you can only have one aspect as your main focus. If you're going high Strength, you will have at best a medium Wisdom. That's fine for buffing, but if you want high save DCs, you're not going to be pleased. If you want a high Wisdom, you will naturally have to leave less points for Strength.

Similarly, you can grab metamagic and Spell Focus feats, or you can devote more effort to things like Power Attack.

Jiggy wrote:

My main thought is the use of scrolls, wands, rods, and pearls. Would a familiar really help with that?

A familiar could use wands and scrolls for you if you invest in UMD; however, rods you are probably out of luck. As for pearls of power, in reading the description I see no mention of needing a free hand to use one. They are slotless items with no method for activation other than once per day on command. So having it held in your mouth and mumbling the command word, or having it balanced on your tail, or just having it in front of you, may all be valid. Ask your GM beforehand of course, because PFS is going to have different GMs with differing opinions. A polymorphic pouch will probably convert all but the hardest GMs to your being able to use pearls.

[Jiggy]

Mergy wrote:

You can attempt both, but looking at the numbers, I would say you can only have one aspect as your main focus. If you're going high Strength, you will have at best a medium Wisdom. That's fine for buffing, but if you want high save DCs, you're not going to be pleased. If you want a high Wisdom, you will naturally have to leave less points for Strength.

Similarly, you can grab metamagic and Spell Focus feats, or you can devote more effort to things like Power Attack.

One day I'll master it...

Mergy wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

My main thought is the use of scrolls, wands, rods, and pearls. Would a familiar really help with that?

A familiar could use wands and scrolls for you if you invest in UMD; however, rods you are probably out of luck. As for pearls of power, in reading the description I see no mention of needing a free hand to use one. They are slotless items with no method for activation other than once per day on command. So having it held in your mouth and mumbling the command word, or having it balanced on your tail, or just having it in front of you, may all be valid. Ask your GM beforehand of course, because PFS is going to have different GMs with differing opinions. A polymorphic pouch will probably convert all but the hardest GMs to your being able to use pearls.

After a fight...

"Hey, could you do me a favor?"
"Uh, sure, I guess...?"
"Could you dig a pearl out of that bag of mine and hold it up against me for a second while I say a command word?"

[Selter Sago de'Morcaine PFS]

The avatar shows what I am doing with my Nagaji Naga Aspirant.
I'm only up to level 3 so far. The spit venom was a concept kinda thing but has proven even more worthless than I expected. If I'm within 10 feet, I might as well melee attack.

[Jiggy]

Hmmm....

I could go really extreme and do stats like this:

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 11
CON 14
INT 05 (7-2)
WIS 18
CHA 09 (7+2)

Between a belt and size increase, I could have solid STR for attacking, while still having high enough WIS for some blasting.

Of course, I'd have 1 skill rank per level and be dumber than a paladin's mount, but...

[Jiggy]

Maybe in the meantime I should investigate wayang and kitsune concepts, just in case...

[Mergy]

If you're doing that, at least don't destroy yourself with the 18 wisdom. A 17 would give you four more points to play with, which is enough to get your intellect back up to 8.

If a balanced build is what you want, I would look at:

Str 17, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 9

Melee focused but with enough wisdom to never have to worry about your casting. You can lower intelligence or dexterity by 2 to grab 14 constitution instead, and you can have a 20 strength base by level 12.

[Jiggy]

Mergy wrote:

If you're doing that, at least don't destroy yourself with the 18 wisdom. A 17 would give you four more points to play with, which is enough to get your intellect back up to 8.

Yeah, fair point. Maybe something more like this:

STR 16 (14+2)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 07 (9-2)
WIS 17
CHA 09 (7+2)

Stat bump at 4th goes to WIS, meaning I get the second bonus 1st-level spell as soon as I pick up a headband. Save DCs will be decent, as will melee power (especially when augmented with divine favor).

I think that might be my winner.

[Mergy]

The only part I'm not a fan of is the two skill points per level. I would consider lowering strength to 14 after racials to increase intelligence to 10; 2 skills per level will make up for -1 to attack and damage in my opinion.

[Jiggy]

Hmmm... Maybe I should decide what skills I actually want and then pick my final STR/INT based on that decision.

[Jiggy]

And what book do I need for a primary bite attack when not in naga form?

[Pirate Rob]

Jiggy, if you only have a single natural attack you use it as primary even if it's listed as secondary.

"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls."

[Jiggy]

Pirate Rob wrote:

Jiggy, if you only have a single natural attack you use it as primary even if it's listed as secondary.

"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls."

Aha, so I do! Oh well, doesn't change the fact that I need to know where that trait is from.

[Pirate Rob]

Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

From Orcs of Golarion page 23 and legal for half orcs. (As prior to the ARG it doesn't feature the additional restrictions that race material in that book has. meaning you can take it with adoped.)

Pathfinder Player Companion: Orcs of Golarion

Feats: all feats on pages 24–25 except Destroyer's Blessing and Fire God's Blessing; Spells: all spells on pages 28–29 except enemy's heart and shield the banner; Traits: all traits on pages 22–23 except Blessing of the Feast, Demented Inventor, and Tribal; Other: orc sorcerer bloodline on page 14

[Golo]

If you have access to the Faiths and Philosophies book there is a new druid domain that is very interesting. Crocodile. It does give you a death roll ability like a crocodile which is fun if you are going to do any grappling as a naga. Visually I could see you wrap your coils around someone and roll around.

Also it gives you Sneak attack at level 6 and every 5 levels after. The spells are pretty good too.

Domain Spells: 1st—touch of the sea APG, 2nd—savage
maw ARG, 3rd—water walk, 4th—strong jaw APG, 5th—legend
lore, 6th—mass owl’s wisdom, 7th—true seeing, 8th—mass
heal, 9th—regenerate.