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3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Just want to verify this weapon and its descriptive text work the way I think they do...
Quote: Kyoketsu Shoge
This weapon consists of a foot-long double-edged blade, with another smaller, curved hook-blade sticking out the side like a rooster’s spur. The blade is strung to a large iron hoop with 10-foot length of rope.
Benefit: The blade can be used as an off-hand melee weapon or thrown like a dagger, while the rope and circlet can be whipped around and swung at opponents as a bludgeoning reach weapon.
So as I understand it, the weapon can be used at close range (5') and/or thrown as a S/P weapon. It can also be used as a reach weapon (10') which deal B damage; at the same time. And it is two-handed, meaning you get 1.5 strength (and two handed power attack bonuses, etc.) with it.
It has pathetic damage and critical range for an exotic weapon, so my guess is that was the tradeoff for having a single 2-hander which works up close as well as at reach. But I want to verify that is the case...
You get the two-handed bonuses only when using it as a two-handed weapon, but basically yes. This really should have been a double weapon.
blahpers wrote: This really should have been a double weapon. That was my thought as well, except as a double weapon it would be as weak or weaker than martial double weapons - so it may have been intentional given the exotic status.
From the PRD:
Kyoketsu Shoge
This weapon consists of a foot-long double-edged blade, with another smaller, curved hook-blade sticking out the side like a rooster's spur. The blade is strung to a large iron hoop with a 10-foot length of rope.
The blade can be used as an off-handed melee weapon or thrown like a dagger, while the rope and circlet can be whipped around and swung at opponents as a bludgeoning reach weapon.
From the way that reads, if you use the blade in melee, you only add 1/2 Str, as it's treated as an off-hand weapon.
So, suboptimal, but versatile.
Hmm, so 1.5x at reach, 0.5x close, and 1.0x thrown... very odd indeed.
Off-hand only exists during two-weapon fighting.
Pretty sure that's the idea, bbt. Rope and circlet as a bludgeoning reach weapon in mainhand, blade in offhand.
Okay, so by the chart, it is purely a reach weapon two-hander that deals S or P damage and has a 20' range increment if thrown.
But by the flavor text, it is a double weapon, one end of which has reach (and deals B damage) - and NOT a two-hander.
Does that about sum it up?
To throw another monkey wrench in the works; how would this weapon work with [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-handed-thrower-combat]Two Handed Thrower[/url]?
Is it, by default, a full round action to hurl this weapon? I don't think so, based on the fact it has a range increment and the text speaks to it being used in the off-hand just before it speaks of throwing it, but, RAW, it is still a two-handed weapon.
Also, as BBT mentioned, off-hand is not a weapon type; so the description is poorly worded. Should that read 'used as a light melee weapon in the off-hand' instead?
Another fly in the ointment... the Meteor Hammer. Introduced in the same book, this weapon clearly delineates itself as EITHER a double weapon, OR a reach weapon. While it cannot be thrown, along with reach you get an AC bonus; so it could have easily been split up in a similar manner in its description. It would make it seem somewhat likely that it is therefor intentional that the 'Shoge is a two-handed at all times. But no, that contradicts the 'off-hand' bit in its description, doesn't it?
Maybe we could get an FAQ (or at least an official response in-thread)?
Aside from intent, assuming I take this to a PFS game or sit at a table with a DM who is very RAW oriented, what exactly is the RAW on this weapon?
To make matters worse, unless you plan on throwing the whole weapon, the 10 foot length of rope would only allow you to throw the blade at someone 10-15 ft. (2-3 squares) away, yet it has a 20 ft. range increment.
I prefer the Dwarven Dorn-Dergar from Dwarves of Golarion. :P
Here's how I'd parse it.
First, it's a 2-h B reach weapon as its base. The range increment is only there to reflect the equation of the dagger end as a thrown weapon. It's not a double weapon, but it makes implicit allowance that you can make off-hand attacks with the dagger portion. This is a tricky part, especially considering the ruling that making an attack with a 2-h weapon (which the KS is) precludes you from making an off-hand attack so this is a situation of specific trumps general. You can make a 2-h attack (1.5x Str) with reach using the one end and couple that with an off-hand attack with this dagger portion only (either as a melee weapon against a close target or a ranged attack against a distant target). The dagger may have a range inc. of 20', but the linkage only allows it to go out to 10' (like the rope dart) so to throw it farther requires you to let go of the other end after you've thrown it. Since it counts as a dagger, it's throwing a light weapon, not a 2-h weapon. Strictly speaking, the dagger end isn't supposed to be thrown from what I understand of IRL use of the weapon, but style trumps realism in a fantasy game. So, essentially, it's a double weapon without being a double weapon (which also means it's enchanted as a single weapon). That's the most logical way to interpret it barring a FAQ/Errata that says otherwise; I'd suspect if one were issued, it'd be that the Double property was inadvertently omitted from the weapon.
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