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1. Pregens arent meant to be optimized. If you want an optimized character, play your own character.
2. The pregens were all (and then some) re-released at Gencon this year. That is hardly a 'long time'.
3. All of the classes from the Core and the Ultimate Combat have PFS-legal pregens to choose from. That's like 15 choices, which is more than enough to introduce a new player to the game.
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1. Pregens arent meant to be optimized. If you want an optimized character, play your own character.
2. The pregens were all (and then some) re-released at Gencon this year. That is hardly a 'long time'.
3. All of the classes from the Core and the Ultimate Combat have PFS-legal pregens to choose from. That's like 15 choices, which is more than enough to introduce a new player to the game.
Yep, this about covers it. I know of several minor formatting glitches and several number hiccups thanks to this other pregenerated character thread, and I'll be implementing these as I make time after finishing other projects. In the meantime, I recommend citing any specific errors (mechanical errors, please, rather than choices in character design) you have found in that discussion.
season 0-3...yes. 4 if your a decent tactician. 5...you have to be damn good.
What if... Your whole team is the pregen ranger?
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When I ran Bonekeep 1 at Gencon, I had 4 of the 4th level pregens played by people who didn't play Pathfinder before along with two real characters (one of which was harsk and another was valeros). They still managed to make it through 6 rooms without me fudging anything. The new pregens have a couple errors, but overall they're competent, and that's all they need to be.
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Smart play beats smart build everytime.
If you play a character creatively you are much more dangerous than someone that has a broken build.
I have a friend that almost only plays the pregens. (As Chris Mortika knows about his 4 AoOs). He is smart and predict things very well. I have seen him trump many adventure with a pregen.
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Then you choose not to see it.Keep hearing this, never see it.Smart play beats smart build everytime.
If you play a character creatively you are much more dangerous than someone that has a broken build.
Or the builds aren't broken enough, or you seriously overvalue the action economy on a +2 from aiding another.
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Then you choose not to see it.Keep hearing this, never see it.Smart play beats smart build everytime.
If you play a character creatively you are much more dangerous than someone that has a broken build.
Or the builds aren't broken enough, or you seriously overvalue the action economy on a +2 from aiding another.
Same here. I have seen, and even built some builds that feel pretty fool-proof. Also, I have went unconscious or even died more times than I can count before I have even been able to act in a round (my average init modifier is probably around a +6). It doesn't matter how tactical you are if you die before you act.
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I have seen silent image trump encounters.
I have seen a twinked out zen archer die surrounded by broken bows from an enlarged giant.
I have seen a mericell steal keys and use bread dough to make copies of them and return to put a module on easy mode
I have seen a flowing monk in game twinked out to raise his AC to 32 at level 4 die in one surprise round from a shadow crit because he thought nothing could hit him.
I have seen broken builds, everyone has a weakness. A smart person can overcome that a foolish person will not.
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Same here. I have seen, and even built some builds that feel pretty fool-proof. Also, I have went unconscious or even died more times than I can count before I have even been able to act in a round (my average init modifier is probably around a +6). It doesn't matter how tactical you are if you die before you act.
Very few times are you teleported into danger without putting yourself there.
A tactical person would not let themselves get surprised.
I never had a character unconscious before thier action. Unless you consider when the group is attacked while we are sleeping and I have to wake up. My character init range from -2 to +2.
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I have seen silent image trump encounters.
I count this as part of a power build. At low levels, it is a beast.
I have seen a twinked out zen archer die surrounded by broken bows from an enlarged giant.
point taken
I have seen a mericell steal keys and use bread dough to make copies of them and return to put a module on easy mode
This likely requires a lot of fiat to pull off. I would want a lot more than bread dough to replicate a key. A tweaked out disable device or spell could power through without question though.
I have seen a flowing monk in game twinked out to raise his AC to 32 at level 4 die in one surprise round from a shadow crit because he thought nothing could hit him.
What exactly was his tactical error?
I have seen broken builds, everyone has a weakness. A smart person can overcome that a foolish person will not.
It sounds nice, and I admit it is more satisfying to come up with a tactical victory.
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A tactical person would not let themselves get surprised.
No. There are limits on your perception checks, your character comes with vision limitations, and many of the modules are written as "you're surprised, deal".
The only way around those are build (ie, levels of diviner)
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Same here. I have seen, and even built some builds that feel pretty fool-proof. Also, I have went unconscious or even died more times than I can count before I have even been able to act in a round (my average init modifier is probably around a +6). It doesn't matter how tactical you are if you die before you act.Very few times are you teleported into danger without putting yourself there.
A tactical person would not let themselves get surprised.
I never had a character unconscious before thier action. Unless you consider when the group is attacked while we are sleeping and I have to wake up. My character init range from -2 to +2.
I have a lot of casters and half casters, but I am guessing I have been unconscious about 8 times in PFS before acting. The most recent of which was last weekend where I was paralyzed and killed prior to taking a single combat action for the game.
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At high levels silent image is a beast. If the bad guy does not have spellcraft you can make walls of stone.
Yes a twinked out character would be better at forging keys, but a pregen still succeeded.
The flowing monk rushed into every room thinking nothing could hit him.
A broken build with a smart player is even more devestating, but these scenarios are not built for that as a whole.
My point is playing smart is more valuable then coming to table with some high damage build you stole from the net.
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I've seen more tier 8-9 and 10-11 encounters ground down by mathematics than by "smart play". Yeah, you can't be a fool with your PC, but a high dpr group will always have a massive leg up on groups that have iconics mixed in. The less time CR 10+ stuff has to do their thing, the better off everyone is.
The reverse of this is how some GMs claim they can make any scenario challenging. That massively depends on the group. Sometimes the GM can't do anything about the mathematics without cheating. This is prohibited.
"many of the modules are written as "you're surprised, deal"."
I strenuously object to this mechanic as well. It's cheesy and lame. Put in more competent NPCs, but don't do the auto-surprise nonsense.
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I've seen more tier 8-9 and 10-11 encounters ground down by mathematics than by "smart play". Yeah, you can't be a fool with your PC, but a high dpr group will always have a massive leg up on groups that have iconics mixed in. The less time CR 10+ stuff has to do their thing, the better off everyone is.
The reverse of this is how some GMs claim they can make any scenario challenging. That massively depends on the group. Sometimes the GM can't do anything about the mathematics without cheating. This is prohibited.
"many of the modules are written as "you're surprised, deal"."
I strenuously object to this mechanic as well. It's cheesy and lame. Put in more competent NPCs, but don't do the auto-surprise nonsense.
Ohh yes power built characters are more dangerous and offer more options than the pregens. But playing smart is more valuable.
I agree, the auto surprise deal makes me feel. What is the point of playing the game if it is decided before I get a chance to make a choice.
As a DM I do make encounters more dangerous often than when I played them, but at the same extent I have seen clever players nerf the encounters by playing smart.
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Keep hearing this, never see it.Smart play beats smart build everytime.
If you play a character creatively you are much more dangerous than someone that has a broken build.
Because dudes with broken builds generally also happen to be creative players :)
Its as though FB seems to think they might be exclusive.
Ohh yes power built characters are more dangerous and offer more options than the pregens. But playing smart is more valuable.
Alright, well you can get your level one commoner ready and I'll get my level 20 wizard. We'll see how well that works! I mean, if you play smart enough you might have a chance.
How smart you can play varies from GM to GM and game to game. One GM might let you drop a chandelier on a monster to entangle it and do damage, and another might say there's no chandeliers. In additional martials don't have many built in options, or at least not nearly as many as casters, so what magic can do and what someone without can do can differ. Keep in mind in many cases with combat, the guy who can deliver devastating full attacks or spells is at a good advantage to the guy using the ranger pregen for example. Harsk does D10+3+D6 fire if he hits, which... isn't so hot, even with fire damage.
That's not to say being smart isn't good, but that saying it will always be more valuable than a well built character in a game like this may not work out so well every time.
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At the very least, there are a couple things that pregens could use some help with. First off, can we get each of them a club? Just a free club? Not every new player with a pregen will know to grab one, but man does it suck showing up with Valeros and Meresiel to a place infested with skeletons.
Of course a smart player can play a pregen well. How about a brand new player that is looking at these guys as an example of how to build a character? Wouldn't it be good for them to know that Kyra, for example, is fully able to two-hand her scimitar for 1.5x strength?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Nobody's suggesting that smart play and a souped-up character using lots of tricks from lots of books, run by somebody who understands the build isn't better than equally smart play with a baseline iconic pre-gen. Good play and power builds are better than good play alone, or just power builds alone. But if you're going to sit down and play with a companion who is one or the other, go with the guy with smart play style.
This weekend, I saw a player with a tricked out character who could have swept the field, once or twice each session, who decided to hang back and do nothing because he didn't seem to know how. I also saw a couple of people rocking pre-gens.
And, um, MrSin, let's get this straight. There's a power difference between an iconic pre-gen and the spiffiest PC of the same character level. Yes. Absolutely. But hey, how about you do us a favor and discuss that matter, rather than pretending that we're talking about the difference between a 1st-level character and a 20th-level one? If you have a serious contribution to the discussion, I'd love to hear it.
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I have three thoughts about what makes a good iconic pre-gen.
The iconics were designed for visual appeal, moreso than combat efficiency. This conversation happened an hour after the first two iconics surfaced. "A human for the fighter iconic? Wielding two weapons? The only decent fighter is a dwarf with a reach weapon!" Erik Mona answered that concern: the iconic characters are designed to look cool for the art. The stats have to match that picture.
For what it's worth, I think any pre-generated character ought to be super-easy to use reasonably well by someone who only understand the basic rules of the game. The problem with ladling clever tricks and odd-book feats onto the iconics is that it makes them hard to understand, and therefore hard to play. (That's why so many of their feats generate static bonuses that are "already calculated into their stats and attacks".)
A player who likes playing an iconic should be able to pick up the Core Rulebook and continue that character without recourse to any non-base-assumption material.
Within that space, is there room for improvement? Some, sure, but not much.
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One thing I want to do this winter, some time, is gather a couple of long-time players and sit down to a new scenario with all pre-gens. A couple of times. It's important, I think, to help new players at the table play the characters, and experience doing so would help.
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We were having a chat on the weekend amongst those of us ever unfortunate enough to go into bat with a pregen, and we were wondering how badly it would be taken if we sold the pregens gear for retraining or purchase of many of the basics adventurers take for granted.
Alchy fire, Acid etc.
Likewise yeah, a club? A sling?
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Yep, this about covers it. I know of several minor formatting glitches and several number hiccups thanks to this other pregenerated character thread, and I'll be implementing these as I make time after finishing other projects. In the meantime, I recommend citing any specific errors (mechanical errors, please, rather than choices in character design) you have found in that discussion.If and when you get a chance to reexamine pregens, can you consider getting rid of the level 4 pregens in favor of a level 3 and a level 5? Given how the tiers break down now, it would make more sense to have 1, 3, 5, and 7 rather than 1, 4, and 7.
Thanks,
Will
Might I ask why? The level 4 pre-gen gives the flexibility to play in most anything a 3 or a 5 could play (barring 5-9's). Anything the level 4 can't play that a level 5 could can be played by the level 7 pre-gen...
It took a long while to get an upgrade to the options that we have, why increase the number of characters to create/maintain?
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I think it is important in discussion to not move the goalposts.
When someone asks "Hey, can the pregens be competent?", He is not asking "Can the pregens be maximized 100%?".
Every time the question is asked, There is a jump to the maximum.
Instead, there are some things that could be changed, that aren't super big:
Valeros could put his useless ride skill points into anything else
Merisiel could get an agile enchant instead of keen.
Any of the fighting types could use a composite longbow.
Instead of far shot on harsk, maybe crossbow mastery?
I mean, I would love to go through and change a few things on each, but that's me
Several of your suggestions would involve choices not available in the CRB, so they would be a no-no for pregens.
I agree that a smart player with a pregen will outperform a clueless player who copies a board build. I think we've all seen the player who has a mechanically fine character but who just has no idea how to use basic tactics.
That having been said, I sometimes raise my eyebrow at the choices made in constructing some of the pregens. They could certainly be more effective, even retaining their "iconicness." Merisiel could be a better dagger based rogue. Valeros could be a better longsword/shortsword TWFer. And all within the core rules, and without bizarre twinked builds.
No one seems to have actually raised the question about whether it is actually desirable to have good pregens - I think part of the point is to encourage players to create their own characters. I think the pregens should just be good enough to allow a new player to feel like they contribute, but to also feel like they could do better. that's a tricky balance and some of the pregens fall short, IMHO.
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If and when you get a chance to reexamine pregens, can you consider getting rid of the level 4 pregens in favor of a level 3 and a level 5? Given how the tiers break down now, it would make more sense to have 1, 3, 5, and 7 rather than 1, 4, and 7.
Thanks,
Will
I don't know how this would help. All it would do is force more GMs to calculate out-of-tier gold, since level 3 pregens would need them in all tiers 1-5 scenarios, and level 5 pregens would need them in all tier 3-7 scenarios. Also, more work and all that for probably miniscule value. You can always play a 4 where you could play a 3, and a 4 or 7 where you could play a 5.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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No one seems to have actually raised the question about whether it is actually desirable to have good pregens - I think part of the point is to encourage players to create their own characters. I think the pregens should just be good enough to allow a new player to feel like they contribute, but to also feel like they could do better. that's a tricky balance and some of the pregens fall short, IMHO.
Sadly, some of the pregen builds are so bad (1d10+2 damage at level 7 for Harsk? Only 13 Wis on a level 7 monk?) that if a pregen shows up to my high-level table, I'm caught between conflicting impulses to encourage the new player to play what they want, and to not die. I wish I didn't have to make that choice.
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In suport of the pre gens. I have three recent examples from my own experience with pre gens.
Recenlty In one game I was playing in in a small con, I found myself with my 7th level paladin, and four other players at the table. They knew each other, and played together in a home game. They wanted to give pathfinder society a try. If memory serves me well, one player had the rogue Mirisiel, another the Wizard Ezren, a third, the barbarian Amri, and the fourth player had Kyra. And I had my paladin. We all did just fine. There were a few hairy moments, but we worked as a team and got through the scenario just fine. I felt all of the players with their pre gens were pulling their own weight.
At my home store, my little group of PFS players wanted to give a higher level scenario a try.
Only one of them had an 8th level pc. This player had a paladin. Everyone else chose from the Pre Gens. I had a big table that night. Lets see if I remember, one player chose Amri, Another Lini third chose Mirisiel, a fourth chose Ezren, a fifth chose Seoni, and a sixth chose Kyra.
I chose to run them through a Feast of Sigils, because the player with his paladin had played through the city of strangers scenarios a couple of years previously. they did just fine. Some of the fights were challenging and the pre-gens were quite effective.
A couple of weekends ago I was playing the Stolen Heir at a local convention called Council of five nations. Playing at the table was a family, a mother and her two sons 8 and 10 I think, and there was another player there, I think in his 30s. We were playing 1st level. The two boys had Ezren and Valeros. Their mother played Kyra. The other player at the table chose Mirisiel. I had my own character, a 1st level Kitsune sorceress specializing in enchantment charm magic. We did just fine. At one point I noticed Ezren had Magic misssile on his spell list. I thought to myself, that that was a poor choice for a spell, but a little later, when this 8 year old was trying to figure out how to contribute to the the fight, the Magic missile spell was perfect for him. He really liked rolling his D4. some of the spell choices are there for beginning players.
Anyways in short, I think the Pregens are just fine. perhaps they could use a tweak here and there, but as they are they are just fine.
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I've played pregens several times to keep up with my friends who had higher level PFS PCs.
Did I find flaws in them? Immediately.
Did it effect the game? Not especially.
Do fix those mechanical errors, please.
Had one pregen whose stats were too low for a feat he had.
That said, if Harsk & the Monk are so severely behind the other pregens, they may need a fix.
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Ive played as at least five of the pregens (Valeros, Harsk, Ezren, Kyra, Merisiel), mostly to help fill tables that only had three players in scenarios Ive already GMed and/or played (not for replay credit) and I always felt I contributed enough to the party to be effective as the next guy.
I hope to eventually have chances to play all of the pregens, just to give them all a chance. I find roleplaying as them to be pretty fun.
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On #1, I'm just saying it is a hassle. How much is subjective. Especially when the party doesn't earn 100% of the treasure.
2) You are making the assumption that every table should play as high as possible. My position is that there should be a pregen available to make a table at the lowest level for each tier. If we are running with tiers 1-5, 3-7, 5-9, and 7-11, it seems to me that pregens should be at the lowest level for each of these tiers. Besides, aren't we supposed to be getting away from always going for the higher tiers?
Going by CRs in scenarios, I believe encounters are balanced based on the higher level of a subtier. Subtier 3-4 readily allows CR 7 encounters, which is APL+2 for an APL of 6 level 4 players.
So yes, I do believe scenarios are balanced assuming the APL is the higher of the two numbers. Which in turn, means that I would rather give pregens in the higher of the two choices.
3) Waiting three levels before applying a Chronicle to a PC simply sucks. Applying it to a 1st level only sucks slightly less.
I've waited 5 levels for a chronicle sheet before (applied a level 7 sheet to a level 2 character). It'll be there. This is also greatly subjective. No sympathy from me here.
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So, I hear a lot of arguing and a lot of debate. But what I don't hear are an actual LIST OF ERRORS. John asked for any errors found and you guy hijacked this thread on your own tangents. Knock it off, go start your own thread, let people actually report errors. If there are any, I'd like to see them fixed.
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So, I hear a lot of arguing and a lot of debate. But what I don't hear are an actual LIST OF ERRORS. John asked for any errors found and you guy hijacked this thread on your own tangents. Knock it off, go start your own thread, let people actually report errors. If there are any, I'd like to see them fixed.
That already exists on it's own thread Eric.
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As a customer and consumer of this product, I have made a recommendation for improvement. I respect you, Carlos, as you should be well aware at this point. On this, however, I disagree with you.
And that's perfectly fine. At no point I meant to imply "you are doing it wrong". Discussions are just that, and two ways. I actually don't think your suggestion would change the game for the worse, just that I find it unlikely.